Religion Thread - 10

Calvin
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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 04:14

I have yet to visit a church in India where there are separate pews for 'lower caste" and "upper caste" - my experiences are limited to Kerala and Tamil Nadu, nor have I visited a "lower caste" church, nor an "upper caste" church.
Last edited by Calvin on 08 Apr 2007 04:23, edited 1 time in total.

JE Menon
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Postby JE Menon » 08 Apr 2007 04:18

Sajan, still has not answered my question either: what is the point he is trying to make...

So far he's posted links showing that the problem of caste discrimination existed in Kerala. That's news to us Mallus, I'm sure!!!

When my grandmother used to be taken in the palanquin out from the tharawad house down a street in the old days (she was a child then), there used to be cryers walking ahead shouting "po", "po"... meaning go away... This was, of course, aimed at the lower caste people who may have got in the way, and god forbid, cast their shadows on her... Remember this was a matriarchal society...so my grandfather did not get the same honour :D as far as I know.

Thank god all these despicable practices have been eradicated, and the residuals will be removed in an evolutionary way, and by the simple realities of present day life.

So what's your point Sajan? What are you trying to say?

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Postby aditya » 08 Apr 2007 04:18

Regarding the "point" Sajan is trying to make, I think the problem results from the clueless application of a Western framework to a totally alien context.

Politics in the West has traditionally been highly polarized in nature. "Right-wing", "left-wing", "conservative", "abolitionist" and so on.

Such polarization is alien to the Indian context and makes little sense. However, due to indoctrination, "educated" Indians tend to ape the Western framework and corresponding vocabulary as though these are a universal template that fit everywhere.

So false parallels are drawn based on superficial similarities with Western "equivalents" and alien narratives are projected onto the Indian context (e.g. "Upper"-caste Hindus = White Christian Conservative oppressors, "Lower"-caste Hindus = oppressed blacks, native Americans etc.)

The result is a hodge-podge of the kind Sajan is subjecting us to:

Sajan wrote:I quoted an article from an extreme right-winger like Rajeev Srinivasan who had admitted that under the rule of Travancore kings, lower-castes were treated much worse than lower-castes in british India


First an Indian writer is branded an "extreme right-winger" by whatever bizarre criteria. Now anything an "extreme right-winger" says about lower-castes being oppressed has to be an "admission" rather than a straightforward statement, since "extreme right-wingers" in the West are the ones who support the oppression of blacks.

Such 'spaghetti code' is naturally difficult to untangle and discuss, since a wrong framework is being used to understand the problem in the first place.

Calvin
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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 04:21

No need that something new has to be revealed. It could just be to help explain something old. A simple equation when symoblically represented for example E= mC^2 does not have reveal something new everytime one looks at it.


My point was this, until Einstein figured out relativity, the prevailiing scientific paradigm was ignorant of the physics surrounding this.

What does seeing E=MC2 in scriptural symbology really mean? Would someone that didn't understand E=MC2 "get it"? Would they even "get" that there was something to "get"? And having "got it" what else can they glean from these scriptures having deciphered it this far?

The last part, to me is the most crucial - which is the "rediscovery" of knowledge obtained by deciphering the symbology on the basis of extant knowledge.

The analogy to is decoding an ancient script from a rosetta's stone, and then using the knowledge to decipher and translate other yet unknown writings. What "rediscovery" has been made directly from the deciphering of these scriptures?

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Postby JE Menon » 08 Apr 2007 04:25

Calvin,

When I was studying in the Nilgiris, I came across churches/chapels where the tribals (converted Kodagus, for example) were given a separate place in the church, or stayed outside with the door open. I don't know if this was enforced by the church, or if it was their own choice. (The latter happens at times too).

In any case, things may have changed now.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 04:29

I am not saying this discrimination is not happening, but that I haven't seen it. Now, I have seen many churches where people stand outside, due to lack of space on the inside, or if they were young men pretending to be religious. I have not encountered the concept of the "middle caste" of the Syrian Nasranis, nor the implied "upper caste" and "lower caste" that must go along with this. How much of this is marxist mapping?

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Postby JE Menon » 08 Apr 2007 04:34

I've seen this only to the extent of marriages and other crucial life events, have not seen it on a day to day basis, i.e. no more than the usual preferential system between and within all religions and identity groups.

Commie mapping? In Kerala? These buggers wrote the book on it. So yeah, could well be that too to some extent.

But it is a complete falsehood to imply as some are doing that Kerala 50 years ago is the same Kerala of today in terms of caste discrimination, etc. among Hindus or any other group...

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 04:37

No disagreement on the implication that what happened 50 years ago, is happening today.

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Postby mandrake » 08 Apr 2007 04:49

JE Menon wrote:Sajan, still has not answered my question either: what is the point he is trying to make...

So far he's posted links showing that the problem of caste discrimination existed in Kerala. That's news to us Mallus, I'm sure!!!

When my grandmother used to be taken in the palanquin out from the tharawad house down a street in the old days (she was a child then), there used to be cryers walking ahead shouting "po", "po"... meaning go away... This was, of course, aimed at the lower caste people who may have got in the way, and god forbid, cast their shadows on her... Remember this was a matriarchal society...so my grandfather did not get the same honour :D as far as I know.

Thank god all these despicable practices have been eradicated, and the residuals will be removed in an evolutionary way, and by the simple realities of present day life.

So what's your point Sajan? What are you trying to say?


Menon,

Why such thing happened in kerala not where i live? happened in Goa not in Delhi?

One here may wonder WHY ARE WE CALLED HINDUS, When from east to west how we eat/sleep/pray varies? Why did Sati was termed as part of hinduism in bengal and it was not practiced in south?

Because it "is the philosophy" that makes us Hindus, not the ritualistic practice, in broader sense of view.

Kindly subscribe or look into how Swami Vivekananda put forward what Hinduism is.



Problem is Evangelism is a threat to indian society because it,

1> Promotes the misinterpretations through politics.
2> So that it may achieve its goal.

Much of what is happening in Iran, or happens in Islamic countries, i.e. promotes their religion through politics e it reservation or minority when muslims spent more than hindus.

That is bring precisely put down here.


Today you have BJP sending controversial CD's, whos condemning paralelly with others?

1> Hindus.

You have shiv sena commenting on presidenting, whos arranging talk shows in Tv's against shiv sena paralelly with others?

1> Hindus.

You have Evangelicals roaming in India, peoples like Zakir naik pouring vicious propaganda,

Where are normal christians or muslims against them?

When we can see the broader aspect of other peoples, other peoples should also have the responsibility to see our aspect is not getting down, because if it isnt the other way you create rebels among the ones voicing or tolerating all.

That is the precise issue with non-dharmic faiths, slightest political power or power politics through their religion is seen as a "non issue", even if it is a issue in their back of their mind, the lateral thinking will compell most to think it as "non issue".

Without the government curbing the misinterpretations , they are promoting them which are supported by money and power politics from other places. That is why you see such diversified things happening here and there. Add that to iliteracy which is most dangerous thing.




About polyatheism, idol worship et al please check Swamijis videos,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPCGixTpa6E


Subramanian , I can question the authority of that blog and the cd..as welll?

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 05:00

God’s Numbers
MSNBC
March 31, 2007
The latest NEWSWEEK poll shows that 91 percent of American adults surveyed believe in God—and nearly half reject the theory of evolution. Also, Americans on John Edwards and the Senate's goal for troop withdrawal



ImageImage
Image

Source : NewsWeek
The NEWSWEEK Poll, conducted March 28-March 29, has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points for questions based on all registered voters and plus or minus 6 percentage points for results based on registered Republicans and Republican leaners. In conducting the poll, Princeton Survey Research Associates International interviewed 1,004 adults aged 18 and older.

Last edited by Tilak on 08 Apr 2007 05:05, edited 1 time in total.

RajeshG
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Postby RajeshG » 08 Apr 2007 05:03

shiv wrote:FWIW I have a suggestion to make.

I suggest that all Indians, no matter what their religious persuasion be called Hindus.

This after all was how the name "Hindu" came about. Hindus were the people East of the Sindhu river.

Christians shall be called Christian Hindus, and Muslim of India Muslim Hindus.

Hindus of India shall be callled Sanatana Dharmi Hindus or Aboriginal Hindus.


Similar ideas expressed here..

http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/178.html

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Postby vsudhir » 08 Apr 2007 05:08

Subramanian , I can question the authority of that blog and the cd..as welll?


I agree.

The stuf the blog claims about the CD, going by G SUbm's post, is just so vile that the whiff of such scandal would have everyone from Prafool Bidwhy to WKK Kuldark Nayar to seems mustafa to teesta setalvad frothing away to kingdom come.

That such has not happened is not because the entire JNU alumni complex has developed (strange)love for the BJP in a hurry but because the BS the blog claims is demonstratably untrue.

What I heard on BBC hindi radio was that the CD contained images of babri and the jai shri ram variety slogans raised therein. Free speech and all, that much is tolerable in a free nation, no?

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 05:16

So what's your point Sajan? What are you trying to say?

My responses are for AnandK who is blaming marxist historians/british/muslims for ills like caste system in his rather desparate attempt to absolve the travancore monarchy of the systemic casteism practised in the society. So my intention is to show that the truth is something different. I showed a few examples like Dr. Palpu, Narayanan etc.

I have not encountered the concept of the "middle caste" of the Syrian Nasranis, nor the implied "upper caste" and "lower caste" that must go along with this.

That is probably because a lot of converted christians left the traditional syrian christian churches in kerala to form a church of their own(I think). Have you heard of "cheramar christians" in kerala ? I think A Roy's novel accurately represents the mind-set of conservative syrian christians of that era vis-a-vis the converts.

http://www.indianchristianity.org/anglican.html


To some extent, I think syrian christians in kerala are equally casteist. They didn't want to lose their traditional social status(which was at par with castes like Nairs) by including neo-converts (esp. churches like marthomites, orthodox etc.)

For a lot of traditional syrian christian churches in kerala, the emphasize is on meaningless rituals (not to forget the litigation part) as well as trying to cash in on the label of the community (for getting schools, colleges etc.). So I think these churches have more to be afraid of evangelicals in kerala as they stand to lose their sheep.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 05:19

[quote]Let all citizens of that Indian state be treated according to their individual worth irrespective of their religious or racial percentage in general population.â€
Last edited by Calvin on 08 Apr 2007 05:42, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 05:22

Sajan wrote:So I think these churches have more to be afraid of evangelicals in kerala as they stand to lose their sheep.


"Sheep", as you say man... :rotfl:

It would be great if one knows, if the above postor is debating from a "theistic", "atheistic", "agnostic" or "any other select" point of view.

"We have a secrets to keep, H&D to save.. and equal-equal to sell " :P
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Sajan
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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 05:35

Tilak wrote:
Sajan wrote:So I think these churches have more to be afraid of evangelicals in kerala as they stand to lose their sheep.


"Sheep", as you say man... :rotfl:

For me, anyone following any religion is showing a herd-like mentality, because of the need for "strength in numbers", as can be evidenced in this forum on these threads. Because of blind faith, one is forced to defend meaningless beliefs (or put a cover of "science" around that) whether it is banning cow-slaughter or purification ceremony in the temple or caste system

Sajan asks about "Cheramar Christians" - No, I have not heard about them.

Google that and you will find a lot of matrimonial ads specifying "cheramar christians". :D

Cheramar means "pulaya" caste, converted christians. If they are tightly integrated into the traditional christian community in kerala, you wouldn't be seeing those type of advertisements, do you see matrimonial advertisements from "ezhava christians" or "nair christians"?

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 05:43

Sajan wrote:For me, anyone following any religion is showing a herd-like mentality, because of the need for "strength in numbers", as can be evidenced in this forum on these threads. Because of blind faith, one is forced to defend meaningless beliefs (or put a cover of "science" around that) whether it is banning cow-slaughter or purification ceremony in the temple or caste system


Your earlier post/"tips" on page 4 of this thread :

Sajan wrote:Now this is precisely why I stated that there is a need for free-market competition in case of religion. Religion is just another product sort of like Coke vs Pepsi. Or Jesse Ventura put it, "a crutch for those who need strength in numbers".
:rotfl:

Cant wait to see you write a few "excellent" posts on "Christianity" and "Islam" as well.. [ie. keeping in view the equal-equal vigour.]

Hope you don't disappoint your "sheep". :oops:

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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 06:04

Sajan wrote:For all the rhetoric from Anand where he was fighting the wind-mills,

< snip >

I understand that you are very desparate.


Sajan - watch your language. Your need to refute Anand requires you to go beyond facts that you can place on the table to laughable rhetoric about windmills and assertions about his emotional state.

It appears that you too are a desperate person. Please stick to facts. Watch your language. I can understand your desperation in situation when people are disagreeing with you - but you run the risk of ruling yourself out unless you avoid needless meandering from your opinions on the subject being discussed to your opinions about the people who disagree with you.

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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 06:15

Calvin wrote:
The purpose of the statement was to define the Hindu as a thoughful and analytical, giving, sensitive and tolerant person that he is. All qualities that cause jealousy and heartburn among others who seek to bring down what they cannot be.


Is this a necessary, or sufficient condition?

If it is a necessary condition, is any emotional, selfish, insensitive, intolerant person that lives in India not a Hindu by definition?

If it is a sufficient condition, is any thoughful and analytical, giving, sensitive and tolerant person living anywhere on the world a hindu by definition?


Calvin you need to seek and find the answers for yourself. Deep introspection and analysis of your own motives for following up this line of argument from the time you read my reply to Acharya might lead you to an answer. I am not actually going to spoon feed you any further because it is not necessary to convince anyone of any viewpoint I hold or of exact reasons for making a particular statement at a particular time as long as that statement is not vulgar or objectionable.

It is a different matter if you consider the original statement or this one vulgar and objectionable, in which case a straight statement to that effect from you will suffice.

That statement attracted your attention from the time I made it. It is high time you made of it what you want to make of it rather than seeking clarifications from me about one sentence. Let everyone who reads my statement make what he wants to make of it. The words speak for themselves.

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Transcript of BJP UP CD, reported in Hindu

Postby G Subramaniam » 08 Apr 2007 06:22

http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/07/stories/2007040722201600.htm

What the BJP's election campaign CD `Bharat ki Pukar' presents — excerpts from the transcript

Special Correspondent




New Delhi: Here are some detailed excerpts from the verbatim transcript, translated from the Hindi original, of the VCD titled `Bharat ki Pukar' released by the Bharatiya Janata Party as part of its campaign material for the Uttar Pradesh elections. It is on the basis of the contents of this VCD — which the BJP says it has `withdrawn' — that the Election Commission has directed the registration of an FIR against a veteran State party leader who launched the VCD, the party's national president, and some others.

The VCD consists of a series of fictionalised scenes revolving around several dramatis personae including Masterji, a BJP campaigner, and an unnamed social worker. Judging from the final credits, a large number of actors were used to make the VCD.

[Editor-in-Chief's note: The Hindu considers the dialogue and message contained in this CD to be highly communal and offensive. It is publishing excerpts from the transcript because it believes the Indian public has a right to be informed about the reasons behind the ongoing controversy. Several TV channels have already shown visuals from the offensive CD.]

Opening credits: BJP Uttar Pradesh presents `Bharat ki Pukar' (`The Call of India')

Voiceover: Today Mother India is screaming aloud, "Oh my sons, save me from being broken into pieces again. I no longer have the strength to be enslaved another time. By using terrorists, spreading fear and dividing us, Pakistan wants to break India into pieces. Hyenas hungry for political power are egging them on. They have forgotten what the consequences of this will be. Now, ordinary people of India have to think, do they want slavery again or Ram Rajya in their independent India."

(Cut to image of Ram)

[Song — Ai Bharat ma tere charano mein... ]

[Flag of the BJP, clips of BJP leaders]

Section title: A contemporary picture of India and Uttar Pradesh

The scene: Newspaper delivery boy cycles past shouting headlines about terrorist attacks.

1. Bharat desh aatankvad ke giraft mein.

Masterji goes around telling people to come to January 26 flag hoisting. At the meeting, only four or five people come. Masterji laments the poor showing but gives a stirring speech and shouts `Vande Mataram.'

The camera immediately cuts to the image of a Muslim man (identified by cap on head) planting a bomb under a white Ambassador car.

Episode: Cow slaughter

Cut to scene in idyllic village home with soothing music. Two men rest in courtyard next to tethered cow.

Cut to two young men walking outside, wearing pants and shirts and carrying long lathis.

Youth 1: Bhai Javed, the Hindu village has come.

Youth 2: Salim, you are right. Hurry up and take out the stuff, the tika and red thread (kalava).

[Javed opens bag and puts tika on Salim's forehead.]

Salim: Bhai, put it properly.

[They then tie the kalava on each other's wrist while Javed looks around furtively.]

Javed: Now no one will recognise us [laughs].

The two walk into the courtyard of the home with the cow.

Javed: Uncle, Ram, Ram!

Uncle: What's up? Where have you come from?

Javed: We want a cow. The doctor has said we should give milk to our child. So seeing your cow, we have come. Will you sell me your cow?

Uncle: We have cow's milk. And we can sell it too.

Javed: What you say is true. But sell us this cow. Our child can drink milk and we will look after the cow.

Uncle: The sons of butchers have come around many times ...

[Cut to look of panic on Javed's face, cut to kalava on wrist]

... and even offered me 3,500 rupees. I told them I wouldn't sell it for even a lakh. But if you keep it at home and look after it, you can have it.

Javed: But uncle, 3500 is too much.

Uncle: Brother, give me what you want. You are one of us.

Javed: Uncle, I can only give 3000. I'm a poor man.

Uncle: Take it, but on one condition. Don't sell it to the butchers.

Javed: Uncle, we are not Muslims.

[He pays the money and takes the cow.]

[Cut to scene of Uncle sleeping. His nephew comes in.]

Nephew: Uncle, you've sold the cow to butchers and now you are sleeping!

Uncle: No, they were the Hindu boys. They had a tika on their forehead and kalava on their wrists. I saw it with my own eyes. It's only after seeing that that I sold it.

Nephew: I saw the butcher's sons on my way here. Neither did they have a tilak nor kalava. Aren't you ashamed? You sold your cow to the butchers.

Uncle: Are you telling me the truth?

Nephew: I know those boys.

Uncle: Oh, no this is a terrible thing that has happened. [Starts calling out for help, if anyone can find them] ... We'll find them and beat them up and bring my cow back.

Nephew: Ha! You are not going to find your cow. They've probably already killed her.

[Cut to 50-second-long footage of a buffalo being slaughtered, including scenes of the blood pouring out from its throat.]

Text: The present government is giving full support to butchers. Cruel atrocities are being committed on Gaumata.

Uncle [head in hands]: This is a terrible crime, what am I going to do?

Nephew: You can cry about this your whole life. You've committed a big sin by selling your cow to the butchers.

Scene 2: `Duty of Muslim women to increase population'

Masterji stops a woman on the road.

Masterji: My child.

Woman: Yes.

Masterji: Elections are coming. Think carefully before you vote. And put your stamp only on the lotus symbol. Because if peace can come to this country, then it can come only under the BJP's rule. Congress and Samajwadi are the government of mullahs and maulvis.

Woman: Forgive me for saying so, but I am also a Muslim and Mullahs and Maulvis consider women their personal property.

[Cut to group women in black chador]

Woman 1: The duty of a woman is to produce children and increase the population.

Woman 2: What this sister says is right. Our leaders have issued an order. That those who produce more than 10 children will get economic assistance.

[Cut back to woman and Masterji]

Woman: This religion considers us as objects to be used.

Masterji: Well said, my child. If all the women become educated and wise like you, then this country's fate will improve.

[Cut to real news clip of speech by saffron-clad woman. "Hindus will produce two children and Muslims will marry five times and produce 35 pups and make this country into an Islamic state."]

Scene 3: "You will all have to grow beards"

Masterji [to group of shopkeepers]: Don't let this opportunity pass by. This time if you don't vote for the BJP, disaster will strike this country. The country will be destroyed. The BJP is a party that thinks about the country. It thinks about the Hindu religion. There is no other party like it. The other parties, they are all agents of the Muslims. What else have they done other than this? Prices have gone up. I tell you, we must vote only for the BJP.

Shopkeeper: Masterji, it's time for me to run my shop. Here Hindus and Muslims both come. What is it to me whose government is formed? You have unfurled the BJP's flag first thing in the morning. If you'd like a cup of tea, you are welcome. Otherwise, please excuse me.

Masterji: Tea? You think I am desperate for your tea? It's because I'm concerned about this country and our religion that I'm asking you to vote for the BJP. If you don't vote BJP, you will regret it. This country will be enslaved. First it was enslaved by the British, now it will be enslaved by the Muslims. Even earlier it was enslaved by the Muslims. That Aurangzeb earlier cut your choti [tuft of hair] and took off your sacred thread. And now these tikas on your forehead will have to go and in their place you will have to grow beards. That day you will repent, Panditji. And you will be destroyed and so will this country.

Shopkeeper: He is really irritating!

Friend: Panditji, you are calling the Masterji mad but everything he said is right. If today we don't take care, these tilaks will go and we will all be sporting beards and caps.

Scene 4: `You will end up in burqas'

Masterji [to group of women complaining about the price rise]: Listen, elections are coming and only by your votes can this country and the Hindu religion be saved. Otherwise we are standing in the jaws of slavery again. This time we have to make the BJP victorious and vote on the Lotus symbol.

Woman 1: Well you men know best, we will vote where you say.

Woman 2: People keep coming to ask for our votes.

Woman 3: No one is bothered about prices.

Masterji: That is why I am saying: if the BJP is in power, everything will be all right.

Woman 1: Masterji, why are you chewing your brains? People will vote for whoever they want.

Masterji: It is your brain that has been ruined! You will end up covered in burqas and eating paan!

Scene 5: Muslims abduct Hindu girl

[A social worker comes to a village looking for Chameli chachi. Chachi is lying huddled in bed.]

Social worker: Chachi, what happened?...

Chameli: A Muslim boy pretended to be a Hindu and lured my young daughter away. Fearing badnami, my husband committed suicide. If I say I am going to the police, then those people threaten me [cut to visual of a Muslim man wearing a turban and looking threateningly] that if you report us, we will kill your child. Now you tell me what should I do?

Social Worker: Don't worry, now that I am here, we will take care of you, we will solve everything.

Chameli: Please bring my daughter back. Who knows what kinds of terrible things are happening to her.

[Cut to scene of Chameli's daughter praying in front of a portrait of Krishna.]

Daughter: Om Jai Jagadish Hare!...

[A man walks up and throws the Krishna portrait on the floor.]

Man: If you perform puja in this house again, I will really fix you. Remember that.

Girl: What is this you have done, Ram? You have thrown Bhagwanji's picture! What is this you have done, Ram?

Man: Ram? Ha ha ha! My name is not Ram, it is Shehzad Ali. And I am not a Hindu but a true Muslim! Ha Ha ha ha!

Girl: What is this you are saying? You are lying.

Man: Listen carefully to what I say because from today, I am no longer Ram and you are no longer Geeta. From today your name is Fatima Begum. And tomorrow, you will be married to this boy, Yaamin, according to our rituals. [Cut to picture of an older man laughing in an evil manner.] And then you will have to live with him.

Girl: [Crying] You are lying. This can't be.

Man [slaps girl]: And don't ever utter a name that is against our Islam. What is there in these pictures? [Camera pans to portrait of Krishna on floor.]

Where is God? This is all lies. If you want to pray, pray to that Khuda who has made the whole universe.

Girl: [Breaks down, falls at his feet, and says with folded hands] Let me go back to my home.

Man: Home? Ha ha ha! Which home? This is your home and you will have to live here. And stop this puja-wuja and start namaz. Because by tomorrow, you will have become a true Muslim. Yaamin! Come here. Take this girl away. Tomorrow you will be married to her.

Yaamin: [Grabs girl's hand] Come on, begum. I will make you happy.

[Yaamin drags girl away, minus her dupatta.]

Man: Ha ha ha! When Hindu girls get ensnared by us, they scream and shout but sadly there is no one to listen to them and we have great fun. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Written text on screen: Love in Jihad, injury to Hindu religion, and forced conversion. This is the protection provided by the SP government.

[Social worker goes on a political mission, meets Samajwadi and Congress leaders, and finally decides that the BJP is the party to support.]

Scene 6: `Soon there will be only Naqvis, no Sohanlals'

The newspaper man brings headlines of terrorist attacks. Masterji shouts that this is what he has been warning about for years but people thought he was mad. In anger, he pushes the newspaper man's bicycle, but then has a heart attack and dies.

Funeral scene: Social worker, shopkeepers, and all the dramatis personae we have met so far congregate around his body.

Shopkeeper: He was a great man, always worried about the country and our religion. One day he came to my shop and said Ramlalji, the country will be partitioned once again because Hindus are forgetting their culture and the government is taking the side of the Muslims ...

Shopkeeper 2: Yes, he was a true patriot. He used to consider the Samajwadi government as pro-Muslim and that is what is happening in reality.

Mourner: Do you know the Mulayam government has hired 13,000 Urdu teachers. So are ulema going to teach us from now? And they have removed all laudatory references to Hindus from the curriculum. What will happen to Hindu culture?

Social Worker: Who knows how many more masters will be martyred because of their concern for this country? But your eyes will still not open. And now, that day is not far away when we will be afraid to even call ourselves Hindu, and you will never be able to find a Sohanlal, Mohanlal, Atmaram, or Radhakrishan anywhere. Wherever we look, we will only see Abbas, Naqvi, Rizvi, and Maulvi. All schools and colleges will be shut down. What will open are madrasas from where fatwas will be issued to drive Hindus out from this country, enslave them — because they want to rule over here, they want to make India into Pakistan. Then it will be difficult for Hindu girls to ever venture outside their houses. Muslims will seize their houses. Then who will protect their honour?

Old man: No. We will never allow this to happen. In order to realise Masterji's dreams and prevent India from becoming Pakistan, we must live and die for the nation.

Social worker: Come, let us take a vow.

[All join hands over Masterji's body and shout `Vande Mataram! Jai Sri Ram! Vande Mataram! Jai Sri Ram!']

Social worker: Just as the slogan of Vande Mataram inspired us to throw out the British, today we have to take an oath to drive those traitors out of the country.

Visual of BJP flag

Social worker: Let us move ahead waving the flag of the BJP and the saffron flag. Jai Sri Ram!

[The CD concludes with songs, visual montages of BJP leaders giving speeches, clips of the Babri Masjid being demolished, etc.]

TSJones
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Postby TSJones » 08 Apr 2007 06:23

Quote:

The latest NEWSWEEK poll shows that 91 percent of American adults surveyed believe in God—and nearly half reject the theory of evolution.


Yeah, but the trouble is, a lot of 'em are going straight to Hell! They can reject evolution all they want. That ain't the point.

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Previous BJP CD in 2006

Postby G Subramaniam » 08 Apr 2007 06:24

http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/07/stories/2007040707271200.htm

BJP disowns one CD, owns up another

Neena Vyas

It was released at the party's national council session in December 2006








The CD released by the BJP in December 2006.

NEW DELHI: The Bharatiya Janata Party on Friday disowned the communally inflammatory compact disc released to the media at a press conference in Lucknow on Wednesday, but owned up as "official" another CD released at its Lucknow conclave in December 2006.

"Yes, the CD released by the party and given to the media at the party's national council session in Lucknow is official party material," party spokesperson Prakash Javadekar said in response to a pointed question.

The fact is that this "official CD" is also offensive and anyone seeing it — as this reporter has — would note that it is calculated to create hatred as it shows Muslims slaughtering a cow in a gruesome and primitive manner. This "official" CD also has footage on Hindu girls eloping or being abducted by Muslim youth with a voiceover saying that Muslim clerics encouraged this.

No complaint yet


However, it seems that no complaint has been made to the Election Commission about this "authorised" publicity material, produced by the very same persons who made the "withdrawn CD." The publisher of both the CDs is Manoj Mishra, the party's Uttar Pradesh unit spokesperson till two days ago.

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Complaints about muslim cow slaughter in BJP CD

Postby G Subramaniam » 08 Apr 2007 06:27

In Indian abbatoirs animals are slaughtered in an inhumane fashion
not stunned
Next, Muslim method of halal slaughter is primitive

The psec complaints as follows
"The fact is that this "official CD" is also offensive and anyone seeing it — as this reporter has — would note that it is calculated to create hatred as it shows Muslims slaughtering a cow in a gruesome and primitive manner. "

"Cut to 50-second-long footage of a buffalo being slaughtered, including scenes of the blood pouring out from its throat."


The CD does not exaggerate, thats how it really happens

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Postby Muppalla » 08 Apr 2007 06:46

Regarding casteism in Christianity, I can tell about its configurations in Andhra Pradesh.

The main castes that converted from hindus are (not that others did not convert but very miniscule):

Schedules Castes - Extremely large number are converted to christianity
1) Malas
2) Madigas - like chamar in North India

Malas and Madigas never marry each others and they are divided. Hence they converted into following churches:
Malas - Baptist church
Madigas - Luthern church
(Baptist and Lutherns form Protestants of AP)


Forward castes:
1) Kammas (also calleds as Chowdarys in coastal AP and Naidus in Rayalaseema)
2) Reddys (mostly from Rayalseema and Coastal AP)
3) kapus ( also called as balizas and also as Naidus in Coastal AP)

All the converted forward castes are Catholics. Also known as very rich Christians. They did not lose their identities even after conversion. Layola, Montessorie and Stella Mary in Vijayawada belong to these sections. They name their schools that sound like hindu names (viz. famous Nirmala convent of Vijayawada). If their names sound christian, these folks names will be like Joseph Reddy, Johnson Chowdary and Christopher Naidu etc. (Caste names are not last names in AP. They are optional middle names)

Inspite of being one entity called catholics, they still have their social tensions. Layola college of Vijayawada is Converted Kamma dominated christian college. This is associated to Layola academy of Chennai. In the 90s, once there was a Principal appointed from another caste (converted from Kapu ). The kammas dominated Layola college( this is boys only college) have complained of homosexual harrasment from the principal and made sure he is transferred back to Chennai.

Hence Shiv's theory of Hindu-Christians is not that far fetched. However, I like the RSS's request to indigenize christians some time back. Follow christianity but do not say mine is Romal catholic, Atlantic Ocean catholic. Just say kerala christian, Kamma Christian etc. That way these religions can assimilate into India very well.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 07:19

Hence Shiv's theory of Hindu-Christians is not that far fetched.


My contention is that this already exists, it is called Indian Christian. It is not the name that gives rise to the tensions. In an earlier thread, I had sought to draw attention to this by asking whether people believe a conversion to Christianity implied a loss of nationality.

What is confusing is this conflation between Sanatan Dharma and Hinduism on one hand, and Hinduism and the denizens of the land of India on the other.

(BTW, does characterizing oneself as Syrian Orthodox Christian in religious terms, somehow prevent a simultaneous characterization as Indian? I thnk not)

All the converted forward castes are Catholics. Also known as very rich Christians.


From the article posted above, it appears that 75% of Indian Catholics are Dalit.

I am not actually going to spoon feed you any further because it is not necessary to convince anyone of any viewpoint I hold or of exact reasons for making a particular statement at a particular time as long as that statement is not vulgar or objectionable.


That's fine. However asking a person for clarification is a legitimate method preventing misapprehension. Perhaps, the logical conclusions derived from your statement are unintended, and that is understandable. My commentary was designed to let you clarify what specifically was intended - particularly since the logical conclusions may appear unpalatable to most people.

Sajan - watch your language. Your need to refute Anand requires you to go beyond facts that you can place on the table to laughable rhetoric about windmills and assertions about his emotional state.


The phrase "fighting ... windmills" is a commonly understood figurative expression and is generally not construed as offensive speech.

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 07:29

Let me quote what prompted me to make that comment

AnandK wrote:quote from Wiki) that there were 17 million Christians in Travancore in 1931. Now the pop of WHOLE of Kerala was 50 million in 1931.... so that makes 34% Christians in Kerala? Heck.... even after steady growth rates down the years the Christians are like 18-19% of Kerala!


Now this is what I quoted form Wiki

In dejection many of the Ezhavas embraced Christianity as borne out by the fact that the Christian population of Travancore which stood at six lakhs in 1901 increased to 17 lakhs in 1931.


Foloowing is statistics of kerala population over last century. As you can see population in 1931 was 95 lakhs - 9.5 million and christian population was 17 lakhs - 1.7 million, or about 18%, not 34% as Anand claims. Even if Anand is confused about the difference between 1 lakh and 1 million (10 lakhs), you can see that he is using false statistics in an assertive manner to discredit opposing views. I find that to be more offensive

http://cyberjournalist.org.in/census/ker81-01.html

And shiv seems to have completely overlooked comments like
AnandK wrote:Pal, there's this thing called Wikiality.... I suggest you check it up.


BTW, I don't know if Anand's arguments are any better than the marxist historians that he was trying to discredit.
Last edited by Sajan on 08 Apr 2007 07:35, edited 2 times in total.

Alok_N
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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 07:32

Greg,

All newbies get a rough treatment on this forum ... I have done so with you and gauged you ... no apologies, have the last word and let it be ...

or, you can follow another track ... you offered to post passages from Hindu thought that were unscientific ... please post those so discussion can continue ...

as for the rest, your narrative has not changed ... repetitive claims do not lead to established claims ... you have not understood the contributions of quantum mechanics but yet you feel sure enough to argue on ...

if this sounds condescending, that's because it is ... sue me.

No more from me unless you pursue the topic of scientific nature of Hindu thought in an earnest manner ...

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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 07:36

Calvin wrote:
Sajan - watch your language. Your need to refute Anand requires you to go beyond facts that you can place on the table to laughable rhetoric about windmills and assertions about his emotional state.


The phrase "fighting ... windmills" is a commonly understood figurative expression and is generally not construed as offensive speech.


"Calvin is being mule-headed while being wrong". "Mule headed is a commonly understood figurative expression" to indicate stubbornness. But if I think you are wrong, all I need to say is that you are wrong.

I DO NOT need to say that you are mule headed in addition.

The sense in which it is used is important. I believe that Sajan has used it to buttress and strengthen his arguments.

Do you think that Sajan's usage of the words "You are desperate" in the same post that he accused someone of chasing windmills is another harmless expression that contributes greatly to the powerful arguments that Sajan is able to make to support his view.

Rhetoric is a game that you can play and I can play. It may be worth being cautious about whose rhetoric is acceptable and whose is not.

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 07:42

Sajan wrote:he is using false statistics in an assertive manner to discredit opposing views. I find that to be more offensive


He will clarify, but I remember you doing the same[passing off "Dung" as UK paper] and are still doing it.

ala.

Sajan wrote:For me, anyone following any religion is showing a herd-like mentality, because of the need for "strength in numbers", as can be evidenced in this forum on these threads. Because of blind faith, one is forced to defend meaningless beliefs (or put a cover of "science" around that) whether it is banning cow-slaughter or purification ceremony in the temple or caste system


Your earlier post/"tips" on page 4 of this thread :

Sajan wrote:Now this is precisely why I stated that there is a need for free-market competition in case of religion. Religion is just another product sort of like Coke vs Pepsi. Or Jesse Ventura put it, "a crutch for those who need strength in numbers".


Still the "sheep" [ie. myself] am awaiting for your "message/path".

So please oblige .. onlee :(
Last edited by Tilak on 08 Apr 2007 07:46, edited 2 times in total.

Calvin
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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 07:43

Do you think that Sajan's usage of the words "You are desperate" in the same post that he accused someone of chasing windmills is another harmless expression that contributes greatly to the powerful arguments that Sajan is able to make to support his view.


I find it no more or less germane to the argument than Alok's "condescension."

Rhetoric is a game that you can play and I can play. It may be worth being cautious about whose rhetoric is acceptable and whose is not.


Shiv: There are far worse examples of personal attacks and vicious language on this and previous incarnations of this thread, than what Sajan is being hauled up for. If the metric for acceptability is defined by the source, rather than the content, then let the games begin.
Last edited by Calvin on 08 Apr 2007 07:49, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 07:44

Sajan wrote:
And shiv seems to have completely overlooked comments like
AnandK wrote:Pal, there's this thing called Wikiality.... I suggest you check it up.
.


If that is an insult, I would like to be educated about it and Anand stands equally warned of indulging in the sort of needless rhetoric that you choose to use to bolster your view.

You have a right to hold your view, but bolstering them with needless comments about the person making opposing your view is an indicator of YOUR emotions, as such comments would be an indicator of Anand's emotions if he used them.

Please stick to your version of the facts and not your theories on emotions.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 07:45

Tilak - It appears that your posts are flame bait. If there is no meaningful content, please desist.

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 07:46

Do you think that Sajan's usage of the words "You are desperate" in the same post that he accused someone of chasing windmills is another harmless expression

Shiv, the context is in the above post, providing misleading statistics and at the same time blaming marxist historians of providing biased/inaccurate accounts.

Still the "sheep" [ie. myself] am awaiting for your "message/path".


Follow the shoe!!
OR
Follow the gourd!! :D :D

(Courtsey: Life of Brian)

shiv
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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 07:47

Calvin wrote:Shiv: There are far worse examples of personal attacks and vicious language on this and previous incarnations of this thread, than what Sajan is being hauled up for. If the metric for acceptability is defined by the source, rather than the content, then let the games begin.


Calvin. The games have already begun. If you are unable to do your job in pointing out those comments and if you choose to join the games, that is up to you.

Please point out transgressions when you see them, as I will point them out when I see them - and that will include your own too.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 07:51

Do we want to start at the beginning of this thread, or at the beginning of the process (since it is archived)?

And, do certain categories of people get free rein to vent? Or do all categories do? What category does Sadler fall into?
Last edited by Calvin on 08 Apr 2007 07:52, edited 1 time in total.

Tilak
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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 07:52

Sajan wrote:Follow the shoe!!
OR
Follow the gourd!! :D :D

(Courtsey: Life of Brian)


Sorry I've been busy following a "chicken". :eek:

:Up for self deletion: :)
Last edited by Tilak on 08 Apr 2007 07:55, edited 1 time in total.

vsudhir
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Postby vsudhir » 08 Apr 2007 07:55

Hard to believe such open disagreement among mods.

Does this have precedent? Wonder why I feel like this maybe a first of sorts on BRF. Something we could do without probably.

JMTs anyway.

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Postby Anand K » 08 Apr 2007 07:55

[]SENTENCE EDITED[]
Look how he takes the Christian Population of Travancore and divides it by the population of Kerala to yank out his perjentaje. Remember that Cochin and Malabar had sizable numbers of Christians! :D :lol:
PS: Have you ever thought of the fact that the sizable nos of Xians in Travancore was comprised of Christians of North and Central Travancore... folks who had been Christians long before Constantine ever saw a cross? The argument that Ezhavas would have converted en masse to Xianity is a recent one and is at best a reflection of sheer ignorance. Any BRFite can see the motives behind such an argument......



Sakhave, I have a flight to catch in 3 hrs... to Malluland! Yipee! I will continue the debate as soon as I can. But before I leave to ogle at Air Hostesses, here's something for you to ponder.


Your contention that the Monarchy HAD to give in due to the "revolt" of the "oppressed proletariat" flounders under scrutiny. In 1925 while the untouchability agitation was raging in North Kerala, the Mahatma received an assurance from the Queen regent and the teenaged King that untouchablity will be removed for good and temples will be open for all Hindus when the KING ascends the throne (replacing the REGENT). In 1933, a committee comprising of HCs and LCs was formed to make the appropriate legislation and conduct a referendum among the HCs. On the 3rd of Nov 1936, the conference submitted a Memorial where the overwhelming of Travancore voted in favor. On 12 Nov (the new King's birthday), the proclamation was made. And one more thing..... CP Ramaswami Iyer had a cameo in this regard. He was appointed the Diwan only a couple of months ago! Till then he was serving in the Viceroy's executive council in New Delhi. :D This is something conveniently glossed
over in the commie "study classes"/journals/histories and unacknowledged" by the Dalitists.

PS: Now that YOU are forced to show the Brits in a favorable light so that the Monarchy can be 400% demonised, let me point you to something called the Kundara Proclamation of 1808. Also, may I remind you of who SENT the Diwans to Travancore in the first place? If you think the Maharaja put out Personals in the Govt Gazetteer you are much mistaken
Last edited by Anand K on 08 Apr 2007 08:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 07:59




The Newsweek poll about God is interesting.

Americans are not dense. At least my interpretation of the poll suggests that they are not totally against science or evolution even if they do believe in God.

In many ways this sort of poll throws a challenege to scientists in general. At least in the US scientists were treated like alternatives to God in the 60s and later.

Coming from a family of scientists -many of whom went to the US - this did not appear such a bad thing to me, but science too has had its share of snake-oil sellers who have had major effects - some deleterious on life today. That is exactly the argument with God. God has major effects on people- some deleterious.

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Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2007 08:01

Anand K wrote:You know... I am beginning to wuv this Sajan dude.


Needless comment here. If you can't stop, he can't be asked to stop either.


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