Religion Thread - 10

Rakesh
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Post by Rakesh »

Alok_N wrote:I wouldn't put it that way ... Islamists are responsible for destroying existing architecture in India ... for a lot of Hindus, the so called "monuments" are reminders of the loss ... rather than evoke pride, these structures induce gloom ...
Interesting point. I am learning so much. Thank you!
Alok_N wrote:btw, is it true that christians also indulged in such destruction?
Yes. Those Christians either never read Hebrews 12:14, KJV or just chose to ignore it.
Alok_N wrote:how can anyone "forget" this and move on? would you advise jews on forgetting the holocaust and moving on? should residents of Hiroshima just forget it all and move on?
Do the present-day Jews hate all the present-day Germans, for what the Nazis did to their fathers, sisters & brothers? Do the present-day Japanese hate all the present-day Americans for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima? That is what I meant by forget the past and move on. Keep the memory alive, condemn the rape, but stop attacking the baby.
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Post by Bade »

Does anyone know the reciprocal limitations if a Hindu EJ :-) wants to propagate some version of Hinduism at the place of origin of the EJs. Only way to defend is to do pre-emtive action. What are the limitations, are there visa restrictions to say USA to go head to head with bible country philosophies.

Since KSA will cite local laws and say can't do even if their ancestors have been responsible for the pillage and rape in India centuries ago by nature of support of the Islamist theology, the concept of multi-religious or multi-ideology concept is just hog-wash to say it mildly. The world was globalised a long time ago and some consider things a one-way flow of traffic of mind manipulation.

I shall patiently wait for a more economic and militarily strong India before some retribution goes the other way too :lol: to make the rest of the world multi-religious too so that we can all live in peace and harmony without feeling any threats.
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Post by svinayak »

Prem wrote:
Acharya wrote: There would have been a cross cultural exchanges no matter what in the long run. Hindus have just started the process of healing and reconciliation after centuries and do not want another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence.
Acharya, Is this not very same thing which Ejs insist upon doing to us?
Yes. I was referring to that. They have never let India away from harassment even after independence to recuperate and heal.
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Post by gashish »

can creation of modern nation Israel as we see today considered to be a result of
holocaust? (I'm no expert of israel's history..so wud want experts to weigh in)

if yes wud jews of israel wud ever say it was good holocaust happened otherwise we wudn't have had country for ourselves..
Raju

Post by Raju »

AshokS wrote: But unfortunately it appears that it is too much to expect such honesty, the objective of Christians (and Muslims) is to see their tribe grow... so damn the truth when it suits these foreign agendas

Makes me wonder if India's national motto "Satyameva Jayate" - the Truth Shall Prevail - is really compatible with such foreign machinations...
Boss..you are the judge and you are jury and you are executioner. Why then bother with such 'weighty' wondering of whether 'truth' is compatible with 'foreign machinations'...hain :lol: ?? Better to release some thunder.

You have it all figured out in your mind...bas ab kya, you are all set.
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Post by svinayak »

Alok_N wrote:I wouldn't put it that way ... Islamists are responsible for destroying existing architecture in India ... for a lot of Hindus, the so called "monuments" are reminders of the loss ... rather than evoke pride, these structures induce gloom ...

The destroyed structures are kept that way as a reminder to the future Hindus to understand what happened to them and look at what work is still left to be done in the future centuries.
Alok_N wrote:how can anyone "forget" this and move on? would you advise jews on forgetting the holocaust and moving on? should residents of Hiroshima just forget it all and move on?
With attacks from foriegn islamists and other aggression it is a reminder to the Hindus to protect what they have.
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Post by Jagan »

AshokS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I forgot to mention that on the map issue, where India is shown as a multi-religion nation is indeed correct. The constitution of India says that it is a socialist & secular republic and thus the map is correct. To classify it as a Hindu nation is wrong, because that is not what the constitution says.

*CHANGE* the constitution and only then is the map wrong.
the only Hindu majority country in the world was not depicted correctly in the map - which was showing the majority religions of each country - NOT WHAT THEIR CONSTITUTION SAYS....
Now you have offended Nepal !
Raju

Post by Raju »

Acharya wrote:The destroyed structures are kept that way as a reminder to the future Hindus to understand what happened to them and look at what work is still left to be done in the future centuries.
It is due to this feeling of loss & hurt that Muslims and Christians who adopt the Hindu way of life without any external religious symbols are so well loved and appreciated in India.

this is important for minorities to realize.

Hindus do not want you to convert to Hinduism, they just seek validation and reassurance.
With attacks from foriegn islamists and other aggression it is a reminder to the Hindus to protect what they have.
this is sometimes confused with extremism.
Last edited by Raju on 09 Apr 2007 01:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by ramana »

Folks a gentle reminder: The series of threads on religion are to learn and to inform. They are not for mutual name calling and recriminations. If in the first five posts you don't strike oil, stop boring.

This apples to all indulging in tit for tat posts. Cool it.
There are two alternatives- close the thread or ban the offending postor? Its you free choice.

Thanks,
ramana
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Post by sanjaykumar »

if true, the behaviour of those espousing "love" and "peace" is well below human decency and nothing short of barbaric ...


This is the crux (pardon the pun) of the matter. The self-image of the religion of peace and love is just that. It withstands critical examination poorly.

I believe these people do indeed believe their own manufactured image and as a corollary the image of the other as imperfect humans. As long as Europe was at a similar cultural attainment as the New World in its technology of war fighting, this was not a major problem (except for the Crusades, perhaps). The last 3 century interregnum has been difficult for the rest of the world. Ironically, Europe is gradually losing its zeal, the last free-thinker to have been imprisoned in Britain in ~1850. And a most admirable sceptism having been born in Western Europe in the post war generations. (whether it will withstand the Islamist challenge is debatable).

As such Europe is assuming its place with the less dogmatic and religiously sanctioned cultures of Asia-India, China and Japan. America, distresingly, seems to have found its antitwin in Islamism.
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Post by pradeepe »

Thanks Rakesh.

Just a few things-
First,
Neither am I denying the rape and neither am I condemning the baby. I think many in this forum are condemning the rape and the baby.
Dont know about many. I for one am very happy with the baby. Its got dad's dimples and mom's smile and all that. Yes, a few blemishes did make it through, but hey, some blemishes can end being a turn on too :).

Second,
Just to clarify, what I had mis-read was what ShauryaT also stated:
Just like the raped woman, who was always capable of bearing the child, an India under SD was always capable of most of the desired end results of a modern liberal democracy. The experience of the invasions was entirely avoidable.
I agree with Shaurya and that is my belief. I had originally thought you were challenging that.

Third, I agree completely with you that the minorities TODAY dont owe anything to the majority like you said.

Lastly, again my firm belief and keeping in mind my third belief ( hey with a few more I might start my own religion :)). The set of beliefs and way of life of the original dwellers (SD followers if you will) was very much responsible for allowing such co-existance and amalgamation. I again believe that had the roles between reversed, it would have been a different story.

If you follow where I am coming from with respect to my last statement above, you will understand my (and my own) fears to the threat posed by the EVJs and Islamic fundus.
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Post by Rakesh »

AshokS wrote:Since you are Canadian - you should object to Canada being depcited as a Christian country in the map, since its multi-religious or the US being depicted as a Christian country as its also multi-religious....
Yes I object and the map of Canada is wrong. AFAIK, It is against Canadian constitution to address this nation as a Christian country.
AshokS wrote:If these other countries *CHANGE* (your emphasis) their constitutions, then perhaps the map would be right.
Thanks for highlighting my point :)
AshokS wrote:You are wrong, you know it - and are hiding behind your initial comments which support that the only Hindu majority country in the world was not depicted correctly in the map - which was showing the majority religions of each country - NOT WHAT THEIR CONSTITUTION SAYS....
Oh please! On my very first post on that topic...that is exactly what I stated and i repost it here (in bold) for you to read again...

That is a really nice map, as for once Kashmir is shown as an integral part of India by a non-Indian organisation. I wholly support that map, if not for anything else. Till the Government of India changes its official name from the Soverign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic to something akin to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, then the question of classifying India as a nation of just one religion does not arise. That same link however does state that Hinduism is the majority religion in India.
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Post by mandrake »

I have NO ISSUE with India being multi-religion.

Whose here forgetting the cross-cultural link between ancient Persia and India?

Christians and Muslims in the name of religion to seek a identity has DESTROYED thousands of imvaluable books of knowledge.

What is the re-assurance they wont do so again absed on the presence rise in evangelism?

This is modern day incursion, i.e. use politics to break the framework.

I'M WHOLLY AGAINST IN A DEMOCRATIC INDIA THE USE OF POLITICS OF CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM TO SEEK A IDENDITY Which these two religion desperately tries to seek through not their followers but certain group of peoples.

If India being Sanatan republic of India hurts our minorities, What are they doing to ensure it remains as democratic as it is?

What are they doing to ensure we dont get hurt?

Or it is again the use of "inherent tolerance" of Dharmic faith being used against us through our very system that has given some of these groups more rights than they ought to get?

I'm a completely SECULAR GUY IMHO, but secularism shouldnt bring double standards to use the majority against the majority through power politics.


Raju, Thank you for the appreciation, It was a invaluable line you said.
There is no end to knowledge in dharmic faiths.
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Post by vsudhir »

Pradeepe
Third, I agree completely with you that the minorities TODAY dont owe anything to the majority like you said.
Not true.

Though I see your intent as clean, the interpretation of that sentence can be varied indeed.

India's minorities owe it to the majority (and to themselves) to live in peace, be sensible and sensitive to the sensibilities of other faiths, and obey the laws of the land. Of course the majority too has reciprocal obligations.

Discrimination on a religious basis by the state *ought* to be condemned by minorities even when it benefits them and not just opportunistically when it doesn't. E.g., take the UCC. While there are hajaar HINOs eveready to denigrate SD and weep profuse tears for perceived minority sentiments, I wish there were some, any muzlims who would ask for a UCC? {This is in response to the standard "the call for UCC should come from within the muzlim community" line. }

Anyway, its quite possible I'm stirring the hornet's nest. Pls know that IMVHO, all those non-SDs who accept their own ancestral Hindu heritage, who accept that folk of other faiths/belief systems are equally deserving as they are of hope both in this life and the next (if such exists), and for whom India commands their first loyalty (and not Mecca or the Vatican, or Kashi for that matter) are de facto 'Hindus/Hindustanis' at heart. IMVHO, again. You have my respect and my thanks regardless of your professed faith.

My salvos, such as they are, aren't aimed at you. JMTs etc.

/Have a nice day.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rakesh wrote:*CHANGE* the constitution and only then is the map wrong.
I hope, I live to see that day when those two words in the preamble "secular" and "socialist" are dropped in favor of Dharma - akin to the US's constitution being under "God".

The above is not a sectarian view but a truly nationalist and humanistic view that seeks to make the nation strong. I believe, those two words in the preamble have not helped and indeed made us weak and bickering.
So Hindus are the only ones that contributed anything that is architecturally significant to India?
Not at all. The issue is with the means through which any such foreign architecture was introduced into the country and the very negative attitude of secular historians to flush Hindu architecture down the toilet and praise Islamic architecture, culture, music, etc. There is also a scholarly question of how much of this music and architecture is a result of Hindus converting to Muslims to gain state patronage and changing its symbologies to reflect the tastes of Islamic ideology - no figures in sculptors et al.
I would be Hindu. That is how I think of it.
Another way to think about the issue is to say, you are still a hindu, being a resident or non-resident Bhartiya and your faith and belief in god is no one's business. I think most Sanatanis will agree and fight for your rights to believe and practice your faith in peace and without a value judgment on your beliefs.

Instead of looking at Hinduism from a sectarian, POV, which is, I believe, conditioned by the theology of the monotheistic faiths, look at it from a truly nationalist view point participating in all the customs, rituals and festivities of your community.

Some do. Many do not. This veto grounded in the theological premise of monotheistic faiths prohibits such integration of communities. The result is the ghettoization of such communities and damaging the cause of national integration and unity.
That is not my belief, although I am afraid that is the way it came out. Were the Islamic hordes bad in the fact that they killed millions of Hindus? Yes. Should we blame all the Muslims in India currently, for what their ancestors did? No. Should we start destroying their mosques, for what their ancestors did to your temples? No. Should we start erasing their culture, for what their ancestors did? No. That is what I am saying.

Let us assume (this is *really* stretching it) that you have a Muslim friend whom you figured out, through whatever means, that one of his ancestors raped one of your ancestors? Is that your Muslim friend's fault? All I am saying is condemn the rape, but don't condemn the baby. For that baby is yours, as much as it is mine.
The violent reactions you see are a result of the failed and discriminatory policies and vote bank politics practised by our leaders.

When the grown baby starts saying, oh what my biological father did was horrible, but he did some nice things too, is where the problem starts. Why look for positives in a character or narrative, whose net-net balance sheet by that one single act becomes negative forever - even if that person gets reformed, the act has done the damage.

So, accept the result and move on, yes, but let us not glorify any acts of the rapist for it is bound to bring on negative memories too.

All this brings on a fundamental issue to the fore. There is a certain conflict between the theological precepts of Islam and Christianity with that of SD. In the real world, these theological differences matter little for they get clouded in the hustle and bustle of politics and tribal instincts in people.

I would love for these threads to explore these differences. They will tell us a lot about Why, to a certain extent, one narrative has to super cede the other, in order to have true national integration for some of these narratives are indeed in perpetual conflict.
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Rape and resulting baby

Post by mayurav »

Neither am I denying the rape and neither am I condemning the baby. I think many in this forum are condemning the rape and the baby.

While we should not condemn the baby, we should and will try to remove all traces of the rapist father's rapaciousness. Father was a rapist because of his religion. Baby should be encouraged to give up that religion. Otherwise it will become a rapist like its father.

Agree?
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Post by A_Gupta »

Governing with a Biblical point-of-view.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature ... r_god.html
[quote]Gary North wrote in 1982, in an effort to reach Baptists,“We must use the doctrine of religious liberty…until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy constructing a Bible-based social, political, and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.â€
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Post by shyamd »

Sorry to make an off topic post:

This is a timeline of Hindu civilization

Some interesting info
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Post by A_Gupta »

TSJones wrote:Are you an agnostic hindu?
Agnostic implies something about belief.

The Indian traditions are not about belief. E.g., nowhere in the Mahabharata, which is a story that is supposed to instruct one about dharma, is there a discussion of belief. There is no Hindu creed.

One either follows a tradition or one does not.

A mini-tradition would be e.g., father and son go to a baseball game every summer. They do it for twenty years, then stop. A mini-tradition was created and then lost. Belief did not enter the picture anywhere. There is no believer/atheist/agnostic here.
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Post by RajeshG »

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Post by A_Gupta »

Belief has no objective existence.

Newt Gingrich proclaims he believes in the sanctity of the family. But he had an adulterous affair.

The standard lingo is "Gingrich believes in something, but does not follow it. His belief is true, his behavior is hypocritical".

IMO, in the Indian traditions, Gingrich saying something is merely Gingrich saying something, it does not reveal anything about himself. Only his actions do.

The belief in Belief leads to concepts like heresy, apostacy, taqqiya. These are foreign to the Indian traditions.
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Post by aditya »

I for one am very happy with the baby. Its got dad's dimples and mom's smile and all that.
Suppose one were to say that the baby has to be nurtured in order to develop the characteristics of its mother and eschew the tendencies of the father?
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

The baby needs to be nurtured as any other baby in India is done. Maybe a little pampering is needed too. However, it is equally liable for questioning when it starts to abuse its mother's heritage as a rai·son d'être for its predicament and why it should not be folowing mother's heritage. Any questioning of the baby is instantaneously construed as being attacking the baby. The baby needs to be made aware that though no guilt trips are asked of it, it definitely will be required to show that it does not display any tendency of the colonized mind as applicalbe to any other baby of India as quoted below(from Decolonising the mind):
“
The biggest weapon wielded and actually daily unleashed … is the culture bomb. The effect of a cultural bomb is to annihilate a people's belief in their names, in their languages, in their environment, in their heritage of struggle, in their unity, in their capacities and ultimately in themselves. It makes them see their past as one wasteland of non-achievement and it makes them want to distance themselves from that wasteland. It makes them want to identify with that which is furthest removed from themselves; for instance, with other people's languages than their own.[/
b]
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

Should the baby thank the rapist father for increasing the diversity and enriching the community? and if so, what is the real differentiating contribution of the said baby to the community.
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Post by Greg »

@ Johann

Scriptures are arcane in general. Add to that a language that is no longer in daily use and you have a rich landscape to make of it what you will. Hindu conception of the Universe could indeed be useful in an inspirational way. It could also be utterly misleading and wasteful if we took it seriously as scientists. But the issue Alok and I disagreed upon (with unfortunate acrimony that went with it) is whether it is scientific.

If we agree (actually I disagree :) ) that the Christian watchmaker model or a proclivity to see intelligent design helped likes of Newton and Mendel to arrive at their truly revolutionary discoveries, we would also have to agree that Christian conception of the Universe had utility in the past and perhaps it will continue to be useful in some sense in the future. I have a German friend who drives me crazy making a loaded argument that German excellence in engineering is precisely because of their inherent belief that they are emulating God’s ability to be perfect in his detail – the watchmaker. So even if the Christian conception of the origin is “usefulâ€
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Post by Muppalla »

To remove the predicament and confusion of the baby here is what modern India needs to do. India should ammend the constitution and pass a bill of religions. In the bill, the religions of India should be classified into two categories.
1) Indigenous religions - Sanathana Dharma (aka Hinduism), Sikhism, Jainism, Budhism etc.
2) Non-Indigenous religions - Islam, all forms of Chritianity, Zoroastrianism, Judaism etc.

Conversion from any of the (2) to any of (1) or between any of (1) should be encouraged. Any conversion from (1) to (2) should be penalized. All foreign and local funds should be given tax free to encourage conversion to (1). No foreign funds should be allowed to for construction of any religious artifacts that belong to section (2).

Any requests for division of country on the basis of religion should be brought down with an iron hand with no respect to human rights ( stupid definition of western countries).

Highest respect should be given to vegetarian animals like cows, goats etc. There is no need of respect to non-vegetarian animals like chicken and ducks etc.
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Post by pradeepe »

vsudhir wrote: India's minorities owe it to the majority (and to themselves) to live in peace, be sensible and sensitive to the sensibilities of other faiths, and obey the laws of the land. Of course the majority too has reciprocal obligations.
Sudhir, I think we are saying the same thing. But let me be clear, IMHO the minorities dont owe anything to the majority per se, but to the nation collectively.
Anyway, its quite possible I'm stirring the hornet's nest. Pls know that IMVHO, all those non-SDs who accept their own ancestral Hindu heritage, who accept that folk of other faiths/belief systems are equally deserving as they are of hope both in this life and the next (if such exists), and for whom India commands their first loyalty (and not Mecca or the Vatican, or Kashi for that matter) are de facto 'Hindus/Hindustanis' at heart. IMVHO, again.
I couldnt have said it better.
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Post by vsudhir »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Should the baby thank the rapist father for increasing the diversity and enriching the community? and if so, what is the real differentiating contribution of the said baby to the community.
Blimey me! :eek:

In a nutshell, that is precisely what a psec/PC/DIE polity expects in so many words.

And despite their best efforts, that ain't gonna happen in a hurry.

It will take decades more of ceaseless indoctrination to erase the original Hindu narrative (and thereby whitewash the atrocities of izlamist conquest and EJ activity as well).

My hope is by then, the SDRE yindoo will be wealthy, strong and confident enough to hit back at the psecs and demand historical truth be recognized as the first step to genuine reconciliation.

The flower power and the 60s generation, brainwashed into marxist idiocy, will first have to die out of the academia and the English press before the new narrative will get a voice in the media. IMVHO, of course.
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Post by svinayak »

vsudhir wrote: It will take decades more of ceaseless indoctrination to erase the original Hindu narrative (and thereby whitewash the atrocities of izlamist conquest and EJ activity as well).

My hope is by then, the SDRE yindoo will be wealthy, strong and confident enough to hit back at the psecs and demand historical truth be recognized as the first step to genuine reconciliation.

The flower power and the 60s generation, brainwashed into marxist idiocy, will first have to die out of the academia and the English press before the new narrative will get a voice in the media.
This can be jumpstarted by political power, education and owning the SDRE media , distribution and outlet.
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

vsudhir wrote: Blimey me! :eek:

In a nutshell, that is precisely what a psec/PC/DIE polity expects in so many words.
Those are not my expectations but a natural outcome of the assertion that someone made that early evanjihadi efforts were good for India as they increased diversity.

I personally don't want the baby to carry no such burden of differentiation but using the analogy further to show its fault.
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Post by shaardula »

shiv,
please do post those excerpts. if you are unable to post those because of copyright issues, how does one go about acquiring a legal copy of the book?
that type of 'history' i have only glimpsed in a few novels. but something like the samaskara, the history had not changed much in late 80s in rural/town setting the complications of around a hindu death prolly still exist.

thanks for those scans.
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Post by Alok_N »

I see that after threatening to "post long verses from the scriptures" Greg has developed Oraclitis of Wikipedia ... :lol:

boss, if you don't understand sanskrit, ask those who do ... if you haven't met one, then ask Valkan on this thread ...

your criticism of Hindu Thought is similar to that of physics ... much hot air without any understanding ...

you would do well to simply review this thread ... I had assumed that you had actually read something before you started typing ... my mistake ... this is typical of newbies ... in some other thread you would have received much more derision than you did here ...

the topics that you have mentioned have been discussed in detail earlier ... if you don't want to read, what is the point in re-typing them? ...
Last edited by Alok_N on 09 Apr 2007 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Note to S.Valkan and others -- Hindu Encyclopedia needs

Post by Alok_N »

Krishna Maheshwari,

your post is timely ... I was just lamenting the Wikipedia system for such information ... too many cooks there ...

However, the following makes no sense:
It doesn't matter if you feel like you don't know a lot. Any contribution will help.
how does this work? ... who will be the editor? ... aren't you worried about wrong information entering your project?
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Post by Bade »

Alok, I thought you may bring up the Pauli exclusion principle to rebut the comments on the fundamentality of physics ideas even in the macroscopic world. Anyway here it is to the benefit of Greg from Wiki onlee. :-)
The Pauli exclusion principle helps explain a wide variety of physical phenomena. One such phenomenon is the "rigidity" or "stiffness" of ordinary matter (fermions): the principle states that identical fermions cannot be squeezed into each other (cf. Young and bulk moduli of solids), hence our everyday observations in the macroscopic world that material objects collide rather than passing straight through each other, and that we are able to stand on the ground without sinking through it, etc.
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Post by vsudhir »

Krishna Maheshwari,

I second Acharya's post. Shall send you an email. I don't claim great gyan about the Hindu narrative.

Aakhir, Boond boond se sagar.
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Post by Calvin »

the minorities dont owe anything to the majority per se, but to the nation collectively.
OWE? What does any individual citizen "owe" the nation, any different from any other citizen? What does the religious belief of said citizen have to do with what s/he "owes" the nation? (Not counting taxes, another abominable practice)

This notion of a "minority" owing the "nation collectively" is just another version of the abhorrent notion of "collective guilt."

Please tell me that this abhorrent notion is not consistent with the tolerance of Dharma. And if it is not, why on earth are the Dharmic-advocates touting this abominable idea.
Alok_N
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Post by Alok_N »

Bade,

he will ask you whether the exclusion principle had gone public yet and how much did the IPO bring? ...

this is typical of the business world ... except for upper management, the guys in Sales make the most money ... they also create annuities ...

it is amazing, considering that the Sales guy had ZERO contribution to the product ... even less than the janitors who kept the factory clean ... :)
Alok_N
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Post by Alok_N »

Calvin wrote: What does the religious belief of said citizen have to do with what s/he "owes" the nation?
the religious belief of the individual compels him to subscribe politically to the beliefs of the religious leaders ...

I will not argue this point using libertarian principles ... if the above statement is not clear in context of madarsa mullahs and church preachers, I can't elaborate much without going down a path of comparative religion all over again ...
shiv
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Post by shiv »

shaardula wrote:shiv,
please do post those excerpts. if you are unable to post those because of copyright issues, how does one go about acquiring a legal copy of the book?
that type of 'history' i have only glimpsed in a few novels. but something like the samaskara, the history had not changed much in late 80s in rural/town setting the complications of around a hindu death prolly still exist.

thanks for those scans.
I keep hearing that the real copyright owners will bring out the book. I am waiting to see what happens
Maybe I will post them elsewhere or at some other time.

There is an admin debate on that might end these threads.

If anyone felt there was any gyan in the last 10 threads. Please start archiving them separately
vsudhir
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Post by vsudhir »

Shiv sar
There is an admin debate on that might end these threads.

If anyone felt there was any gyan in the last 10 threads. Please start archiving them separately
Tks for the leg-up. There is work to do tonite. :)
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