Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 10 May 2020 21:58

Girder launching 13th out of 22 on bridge over River Sabarmati, south of Ahmedabad, Ahmedabad bypass, WDFC today.

https://twitter.com/dfccil_india/status ... 98/photo/1

Google Earth has not updated pics from 2 years ago and only the start of pier foundations can be seen there on this bridge.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 11 May 2020 09:22

Pamban bridge connecting Rameswaram to the mainland underwent major repair over 14 days during this lockdown. Corrosion had damaged the bridge seriously and the spans that open to allow maritime movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... u7XOqUBdw8

The bridge is 104 years old and will be replaced by a new bridge that has been sanctioned and designed.

Doubling, regauging and new bridge work is going on through the lockdown and even at night. This is happening in remote North Bihar abutting the Nepal border and also on the Howrah-Patna-Delhi mainline where the new (double) spans over the Kiul river was commissioned to replace a 154 year old bridge. Permanent speed restrictions from 10-30kmph are gone and and replaced by 110kmph speeds on the new bridge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_TV0hidHAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1JIXXBF11E

Construction of WDFC bridge on Narmada (1.4 km long) in the era of social distancing. 30 wells dug, 17 completed, 9 wells are being worked on. Spans are 48.15 m long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADVZjOHNyU

Many of these projects have to reach a certain stage before the monsoons or else there will be a setback.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 11 May 2020 21:46

This tale of a bridge which Chacha Nehru conceptually agreed to in 1934 after the Great Bihar earthquake and which languished at the hands and wheeling dealings of several PMs and Rail mantris affords a salutary lesson as to what is wrong in project implementation. The bridge is still not complete. It is a rail cum road bridge over Ganga at Jamalpur. As some of you may know Jamalpur was where the first major workshop of Indian railways was established. All 14 prime ministers of independent India upto one Narendrabhai Damodardas Modi were involved with getting this bridge constructed. Well independent India had 15 prime ministers, one Gulzarilal Nanda was a temporary PM on two occasions when Chacha died and when LBS died. Nanda was the fall guy under IG, when he was Home minister and police firing took place in 1966 at Delhi against sadhus and sants protesting in Delhi against cow slaughter and Nanda was the fall guy who took the blame and resigned. He had already been temporary PM twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6iGFldPSv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j92SeJe0ks

PS: Why was the workshop constructed by the Angrez in Jamalpur? Simply because this area Monghyr or Munger as known nowadays has a history of producing locks and country made guns to this day so there was a ready supply of metal workers. The Naxals are also happy as they can get cheap rip offs of AK 47, country made pistols and so on for their andolan against the Bhumihars in Bihar and nearby Jharkhand. Another reason was the abundant water from the Ganga to drive the steam driven presses, jigs and lathes. The railway line from Howrah to Delhi passed through here the so-called Sahibganj loop. Later came the mainline, Asansol--Jhajha-Mughalsarai and even later in 1906 for faster coal movement and a shorter distance the Grand Chord Dhanbad--Gaya--Mughalsarai.
Last edited by vsunder on 11 May 2020 23:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 11 May 2020 22:15

Fascinating posts as ever, vsunder. I wonder if I could encourage you to drive a new thread "The Industrial History of India" ? The idea is to collate with references, records of the extensive industrial base India had prior to the destructive impact of British rule that turned India largely into a pre-industrial society that exported raw material and imported finished items. Stories like that of Munger describe clusters of tradesmen and a past manufacturing history that is increasingly lost to the modern world if not carefully recorded. The thread would largely focus on lets say 1600-1700s through 1947, with further accounts primarily of what came of that place or people.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 11 May 2020 22:24

^^^ Thanks. Some others can start it. I will contribute if I have something to say.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 740314.ece

What is more interesting, in a deft piece of business acumen the illegal gun smiths around Munger used money from Pradhan Mantri Rozgar Yojna to set up illegal gun shops and further their trade during MMS regime.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/east/st ... 2013-07-23

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 11 May 2020 23:35


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 12 May 2020 00:25

Feasibility study of New Delhi-Mumbai High Speed Rail Corridor completed
An older picture - at least the Del-Mum study is done.
Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Ashokk » 13 May 2020 18:02

20 Years Of The WAP7: How This Star Locomotive Of Indian Railways Was Brought Back From Certain Death
On 10 May 2000, a 6,000 hp, passenger locomotive of the WAP7 Class, was flagged off by the then Union Minister for Railways. This locomotive had been indigenously adapted from an imported freight locomotive, WAG9.

The flagging-off ceremony was the culmination of an audacious experiment of the Indian Railways (IR).

Today, this locomotive is a flagship passenger locomotive and can also serve on high speed premium freight trains, an emerging category of business by itself.

As part of the core team which worked on its design, the author reminisces the challenges and shares here the exhilarating success of this locomotive.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 15 May 2020 01:10

vsunder saar, any newer news on 9,000 HP WAP-5/7 variants? I always get confused which of these or both of these locos are getting the upgrade. I do hope that eventually 9,000 HP WAP-5s will get the aerodynamic package (when it clears all trails) along with 200 Kph gearing. Same with WAP-7s i.e. gearing for 160 Kph along with 9,000 HP power.

Having said the above, I also realize that more T-18s are scheduled to be inducted and T-20s are in development. At least, as of last year, it seems like IR was favoring T-18 kind of trains instead of conventional loco hauled ones. CLW was pushing for upgrading WAP-5/7 on their own and not sure what the current thinking in IR is.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 15 May 2020 01:55

^^^
I do know that WAP-5 that was imported from Switzerland to power Shatabdi etc had a poor performance on the Ghat sections out of Mumbai with the longer and heavier IR and LHB type coaches. To the extent CR did not want any of them. They did the usual thing, altered gear ratio, tinkered with the software and marginally increased the performance and they still are in production. Though I am not sure why. It is not a massive increase in power but somewhere in the range of 500-700 hp more.

WAP-7HS was a new variant of the WAP-7 that had trials on the Kota division a year ago. They had reduced the weight by 14 tonnes, changed the gear ratio and tinkered with the WAP-7 software. Apparently the trials were successful but I am not aware if they are being produced in the new variant. Supposedly the HS variant is ideal for the 160-180 kmph range if and when semi HSR becomes a reality.

Lastly since you mentioned Vande Bharat, the same company Medha servomotors that designed the power train for T18, also designed a new feature for WAG7. WAG7 did not have regenerative braking losing all the energy while braking through roof mounted rheostats and heat. Medha designed regenerative braking for them and also met the design requirement of IR that regenerative braking should be active down to 10kmph. This loco was trialled in Jhansi division and was successful. No word on mass production. This is a freight loco.

Given the goal of producing many units of T18, T20 it seems pointless to keep producing WAP5s. It does power Gatimaan I believe. That is all I know.

With the WAP4 as you may know there is a program to convert many of them to HOG and do away with generator cars. This is an involved process. The reason is that OHE supplies 25kv single phase, simply because there is only one panto making contact. So the basic problem is to convert single phase AC to 3 phase AC, to drive lights, airconditioning A/C, hotel load in the pantry. The way this is done is by first stepping down 25kv and tap it to 960V single phase AC. Then by power rectifiers DC is created. Then one taps the DC into three taps. Next the three DC taps is converted to AC at 750V 3 phase 50HZ by an inverter. Lastly they need a filter to filter out harmonics and this 750V 3 phase AC is sent to the coaches. Here a transformer steps down to 415V 3 phase to run the A/C units and 110 V for lights, fans, charging points and ovens in the pantry car etc. WAP4 is the workhorse and has a max. speed of 140 kmph.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 15 May 2020 08:30

Zynda wrote:vsunder saar, any newer news on 9,000 HP WAP-5/7 variants? I always get confused which of these or both of these locos are getting the upgrade. I do hope that eventually 9,000 HP WAP-5s will get the aerodynamic package (when it clears all trails) along with 200 Kph gearing. Same with WAP-7s i.e. gearing for 160 Kph along with 9,000 HP power.

Having said the above, I also realize that more T-18s are scheduled to be inducted and T-20s are in development. At least, as of last year, it seems like IR was favoring T-18 kind of trains instead of conventional loco hauled ones. CLW was pushing for upgrading WAP-5/7 on their own and not sure what the current thinking in IR is.

WAP-5 will continue to be a niche loco running only a few trains. Since it has only 4 powered axles, it does not have enough TE to haul IR-standard 22(LHB)/24(ICF) coach rakes and maintain time. Heck, even the "desi" WAP-4 does much better in this regard, though it is an older tech DC loco, and the reason for it being my favourite loco. Add our terrain limitations across the peninsula, it becomes even more difficult for the WAP-5. WAP-5 is meant for hauling a medium load, say 14-16 coaches like Shatabdi expresses at high speeds 160+ kph, and it will continue to do that. But given that most Rajdhanis have exceeded this load limit and are approaching the full rake length of 22 coaches, they'll see more and more WAP-7s only going forward. Maybe 2, in a push-pull configuration, like they have done for the new Mumbai CST-Nizamuddin Rajdhani.

However, WAP-7s are hard on the tracks due to their nose-suspended traction motors, whereas WAP-5s have fully suspended TMs. So the latter don't put a lot of pressure on the tracks. In layman's terms (moi is a card-carrying member of this club onlee), WAP-7 TMs are sort of glued to the axle mounts of the loco, so it is rigid and passes on any mechanical shocks to the tracks and vice-versa. Whereas fully suspended TMs are mounted with some shock-absorbing capability, so any shocks are damped better (I am sure that vsunder-sir can explain this way better). It also helps that the WAP-5 is significantly lighter than the WAP-7.

In all ways, except for the lack of sufficient starting torque, WAP-5 is better for passenger haulage than the WAP-7. What I don't understand is, why did RDSO/CLW not take the base WAP-5 and redesign it for our conditions? While they repurposed the WAG-9 into the WAP-7, why not do something similar with the WAP-5 - make all 6 axles powered instead of the current four, and remove the software limitations on the continuous TE (which is what they seem to have done for the 6000HP variant)? It already comes with a hotel load, regen braking, etc., so the only thing they needed to address was the starting torque for our long coaches. The original WAP-7 being of freight origin, didn't have hotel load provisions and it had to be built in later, which is why only a smaller % of WAP-7 locos have hotel load facility even today (all new ones are provisioned now, and others will be upgraded at their next overhaul). It does have regen braking, so that's one less to retrofit.

vsunder wrote:^^^
I do know that WAP-5 that was imported from Switzerland to power Shatabdi etc had a poor performance on the Ghat sections out of Mumbai with the longer and heavier IR and LHB type coaches. To the extent CR did not want any of them. They did the usual thing, altered gear ratio, tinkered with the software and marginally increased the performance and they still are in production. Though I am not sure why. It is not a massive increase in power but somewhere in the range of 500-700 hp more.

WAP-7HS was a new variant of the WAP-7 that had trials on the Kota division a year ago. They had reduced the weight by 14 tonnes, changed the gear ratio and tinkered with the WAP-7 software. Apparently the trials were successful but I am not aware if they are being produced in the new variant. Supposedly the HS variant is ideal for the 160-180 kmph range if and when semi HSR becomes a reality.
IR seems to be thinking on these lines only sir - see their production targets for the upcoming year (source: IRFCA). Mostly WAP-7s only, and a relatively few WAP-5s. No mention of the -HS, but let's see. There are not many places for high speed runs anyway, and with the relentless pace of electrification, IR could use all the normal e-locos it could get.

IRFCA wrote:Electric loco Production programme for 2020-21

CLW
WAP7-30
WAP5-50
WAG9HC-310
TOTAL-390

DLW
WAP7-225
WAG9HC-50
TOTAL-275

DMW
WAP7-60

Grand Total-725

vsunder wrote:Lastly since you mentioned Vande Bharat, the same company Medha servomotors that designed the power train for T18, also designed a new feature for WAG7. WAG7 did not have regenerative braking losing all the energy while braking through roof mounted rheostats and heat. Medha designed regenerative braking for them and also met the design requirement of IR that regenerative braking should be active down to 10kmph. This loco was trialled in Jhansi division and was successful. No word on mass production. This is a freight loco.
This is very interesting, I didn't know of this. I thought it was very difficult to do regen braking on a DC loco, and that's why most/no railway systems did so?

vsunder wrote:With the WAP4 as you may know there is a program to convert many of them to HOG and do away with generator cars.
Is this still happening? I thought they tried it out on one loco, but wasn't that successful.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 15 May 2020 09:04

I recall reading about retrofitting WAG 7s with regenerative braking. I am not sure what happened though this news report claims it a success. It is a legacy loco (DC drive) though as you say @arshyam

https://www.railpost.in/wag-7-class-loc ... uccessful/

I had thought that WAP4 had come through with retrofitted HOG so thanks for updating that trials actually failed. Maybe to put in all that extra equipment is a tight squeeze, it would need cooling for those power rectifiers for sure and there will also be increase in weight. Better to use up the life of WAP4 on branch lines when electrification is really complete.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 19 May 2020 21:42

First of the new Alstom manufactured WAG 12B (12,000 hp) electric locos left ex DDU,(Deendayal Upadhyay Jn.) (formerly MGS, Mughalsarai Jn) pulling a freight today. This loco is manufactured at Madhepura in Bihar. Reports said there were many initial issues in the loco that seem to be ironed out. This is a dual unit loco, not just dual cab and can be operated as a single unit also. Rooftop and cabs are designed to be clutter free. It has been built to pull freight on the DFC's. Each unit has 4 axles (Bo-Bo configuration ??) so 8 axles in all(mimicking a Co-Co configuration?? so best of both??).

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 19 May 2020 23:04

Permanently coupled 2x (or even 4x in the case of the Novocherkassk 4E5K 17500hp locos - the world's most powerful ones) seems to be the way to go at the 8000+ hp level . The WAG12s are Alstom Prima II platforms, supposedly a proven one, but it seems to have taken time to find its feet within IR's stable.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby suryag » 19 May 2020 23:57

Sunder/Suraj sir/Gurus what is the indigenous content on WAG-12 is it BEML Tatra case ? I tried finding this but not much success

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 20 May 2020 00:12

^^^ Claim is Indian made equipment will be 90% of the installed equipment.

Transformers will be sourced from ABB, Vadodara:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/tec ... rmers.html

These guys based in Palwal, Haryana (on the mainline between Delhi and Mathura) are to supply braking systems

https://www.knorr-bremse.co.in/en/group ... idabad.jsp

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby suryag » 20 May 2020 02:39

Thanks Sir, I hope we have full control on the control algorithms and then next on the prio list would be the power electronics components(IGBT etc, I wish RDSO or some org makes SiC Transistors based power circuits for the next gen LoCos) and the cooling solutions(control algos and thermal models)

Personally, if there were a design a Loco thread I would like to see these three items addressed in that thread. This is the time for self reliance and steal a march on the Germans and Japs in this area. May be RDSO or the rail technology arm should throw out challenges to private sector for subsystems for locos and progressively expand on indigenization, gone are the days where there were no private companies and all the research had to be done by Govt agencies

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 20 May 2020 02:43

IR seems to generally be good at ToT and indigenization of their range, but I'm not a railway subject expert, just a curious watcher. They do need the WAG12B's for the DFC - these 12000hp permanently coupled engines effectively double the power of their locomotive range, compared to their current workhorse, the 6200hp WAG9; they ensure the ability to do 100km/h operations with a 6500 ton freight train in tow.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 20 May 2020 02:59

^^^ Actually DFC freight will be 13,000 tonnes rakes. Rakes will be 1.5km long. IR freight rakes are 5000 tonnes and roughly 800m. Today there were 116 BOXN freights( approx. 1150 m long rake) that the loco was lugging. Traveled from DDU towards Dehri-on-Sone on the Grand Chord. Speeds on the DFC will be maximum of 100kmph. Regarding DFC: Khurja--Bhaupur/Kanpur 343 km is ready and so is Rewari to Palanpur. I am not sure about OHE though. Rewari to Ajmer I believe even the OHE is done. In principal they can already start freight operations from Kandla, Mundra ports as the lines from there meet the DFC at Palanpur. In fact JNPT officials were crying foul as they felt the earlier operationalization of WDFC from Palanpur to Rewari 668 km will pull cargo from JNPT to Gujarat ports. The OHE along the WDFC and IR electrification ADI-DELHI(Ahmedabad--Delhi in process and substantially done, both doubling and electrification) is high height to facilitate double stacked container traffic. Even outlying yards at Jaipur where OHE is at final stages have been configured for high OHE. OHE work going on connecting Jaipur to Sawai Madhopur the main station on the Mumbai--Delhi WR line is regular height. The tunnel under Aravalli hill for WDFC in Mewat, Haryana which provides the connector Dadri--Rewari connecting EDFC and WDFC is also being dug to allow double stacked container freight to go through this tunnel. L&T has used some pretty novel software to map the sensitive terrain and maintain the design ruling grade of 1:200 which is a design requirement for the DFCs.

https://www.itln.in/read-how-3d-softwar ... ls-railway

https://www.bentley.com/en/about-us/new ... m-for-rail
Last edited by vsunder on 21 May 2020 00:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 20 May 2020 04:38

Thanks vsunder, for the detailed posts on the DFCs!

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby prasan » 20 May 2020 09:43

Wag 9 HH 9000HP


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 22 May 2020 00:54

suryag wrote:Thanks Sir, I hope we have full control on the control algorithms and then next on the prio list would be the power electronics components(IGBT etc, I wish RDSO or some org makes SiC Transistors based power circuits for the next gen LoCos) and the cooling solutions(control algos and thermal models)


The older WAG9 had thyristor control, close I believe to IGBT. I think the newer WAG9 have IGBT. To differentiate these IGBT ones they classified them as WAG9i, which was introduced around 2010. RDSO is somewhat moribund and functions as essentially a standards organization, writing manuals for specs to be followed in track laying, OHE equipment, signalling and so on. Design if at all is done in house at the various Loco works or the coach factory as happened with T-18.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby neeraj » 22 May 2020 01:48

Vande Bharat Express (T-18). Is there any update on getting more ordered. Found nothing on the web. Looks like the inter department tussles have grounded it.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 22 May 2020 08:39

vsunder wrote:
suryag wrote:Thanks Sir, I hope we have full control on the control algorithms and then next on the prio list would be the power electronics components(IGBT etc, I wish RDSO or some org makes SiC Transistors based power circuits for the next gen LoCos) and the cooling solutions(control algos and thermal models)


The older WAG9 had thyristor control, close I believe to IGBT. I think the newer WAG9 have IGBT. To differentiate these IGBT ones they classified them as WAG9i, which was introduced around 2010. RDSO is somewhat moribund and functions as essentially a standards organization, writing manuals for specs to be followed in track laying, OHE equipment, signalling and so on. Design if at all is done in house at the various Loco works or the coach factory as happened with T-18.

Right, the original WAG-9 was using GTO, and IGBT was added for WAP-7, which was derived from the WAG-9. Since the base platform for both are the same, WAG-9 also got upgraded to IGBT, and it has become the default now. In fact, the 'i' suffix in WAG-9 is not even mentioned in the newer locos.

Evolution of the WAP-7

Once the initial teething issues were overcome, the core design evolved in several ways over two decades.

The GTO (Gate Turn-Off) Thyristor based core of the locomotive was replaced with the advanced and more efficient IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) technology. Braking equipment was replaced with a more traditional design to make high-speed runs safer.

Source: 20 Years of WAP-7, The Modern Passenger Traffic Workhorse of the Indian Railways, RailPost

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 22 May 2020 08:48

WAG-12B in the wild, hauling 116 wagons. Video embedded in the link below. Gives an idea about how the DFC would operate - fast and super long rakes.

https://twitter.com/dfccil_india/status ... 25669?s=20

State of the art IGBT based, 3 phase 12000 horse power electric locomotive Manufactured by Madhepura Electric Loco Pvt. Ltd #Bihar, 1st time operated from Pt Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Jn is planned to run on #DFC for its heavy and Long Haul operation at the speed of 100 KMPH

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Aditya_V » 22 May 2020 11:44

neeraj wrote:Vande Bharat Express (T-18). Is there any update on getting more ordered. Found nothing on the web. Looks like the inter department tussles have grounded it.


I think this is the last public news

Vande Bharat Express: ICF gets nod to manufacture 45 new Train 18 by 2021-22

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 22 May 2020 20:32

arshyam wrote:WAG-12B in the wild, hauling 116 wagons. Video embedded in the link below. Gives an idea about how the DFC would operate - fast and super long rakes.
https://twitter.com/dfccil_india/status ... 25669?s=20
State of the art IGBT based, 3 phase 12000 horse power electric locomotive Manufactured by Madhepura Electric Loco Pvt. Ltd #Bihar, 1st time operated from Pt Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Jn is planned to run on #DFC for its heavy and Long Haul operation at the speed of 100 KMPH

Very cool. It's rather disconcerting to see a freight train go past so fast, and just keep going and going. They usually crawl past less than half as quickly as this rake. I can't begin to think of the kind of impact this will have on interstate commerce.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 22 May 2020 21:24

^^^ In fact the caboose/last van and the guard at the back you see in the video will be a thing of the past. Gone the guard with his big trunk and flags and lamps etc. DFC is moving to EOTT devices called Wilma in the US. It needs a corresponding Wilma enabled loco and a Head of train device that will monitor via telemetry rear brake line pressure and is standard on all advanced rail systems worldwide. There will also be a savings in salary/pensions as guards will no more have any role and also savings in buying and maintaining the last van. I suppose these Alstom locos and the corresponding GE diesels are Wilma enabled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-train_device

A Wilma device

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-tr ... _wilma.jpg

More info about EOTT, frequencies they operate on in the US and range 3-5 miles enough for a mile long DFC train.

https://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-o ... in-devices

Railfans in the US can tune into the Wilma chirps and know a train is coming.

Another feature of WDFC is the double stacked container freight running under wires. Double stacked container freight a mile long and running at 100kmph, that is the future. Here is the parallel IR line at Mahesana, Gujarat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A59l2b4Qms4

WDFC and IR run parallel upto Mahesana in Gujarat from Rewari in Haryana for almost 750 km. Near Mahesana, WDFC begins a big circle westward and southward around Ahmedabad(cease being parallel to IR tracks that go into Ahmedabad), rejoining and running parallel to IR tracks east of Vadodara. You can see the high height panto here. You will need compatible systems in case WDFC traffic has to switch to IR and vice versa on parallel sections.

The economics of no guard

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... s?from=mdr

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 22 May 2020 22:30

vsunder wrote:Another feature of WDFC is the double stacked container freight running under wires. Double stacked container freight a mile long and running at 100kmph, that is the future. Here is the parallel IR line at Mahesana, Gujarat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A59l2b4Qms4

The height of those pantographs :eek:

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nachiket » 22 May 2020 22:43

What makes a permanently coupled Loco like the WAG12B which looks like two 6000HP locos connected together better than using for example, two WAG-9's in push-pull configuration or just 2 WAG-9's connected together at the head of the train?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby yensoy » 22 May 2020 23:09

2 WAG series locos is "better" in some ways than a WAG12B for the simple reason that there are 12 driving axles instead of 8, giving it more tractive effort which is the ability to accelerate. Tractive effort is essentially limited by the weight on each axle, which is limited by the rail at 22.5t on most of IR but 25t on the DFC - WAG12B has the ability to be ballasted to 25t/axle weight whereas WAG9H is already ballasted to 22.5t.

The latest variant of WAG9, WAG9HH is capable of 9000hp (individually) and 100kmph operation - and that is about the limits to which it can be pushed. WAG12B loco pair is rated for 100kmph today but potentially capable of 120kmph. The WAG9 pair will require 2 pantographs up whereas the WAG12B pair needs only one panto and draws power for the second loco through HT cables (in theory the HT cable solution is possible to be implemented for the WAG9 as it has been implemented for similar passenger locos).

In short, is this loco really needed for IR? I am not so convinced. The WAG9H/HH which has been highly indigenized, in pairs, provides better power and tractive effort than the WAG12B. There really isn't any pathbreaking technology as there was when going from DC to inverter based AC locos. Maybe there are better ergonomics, maintenance or other factors besides the establishment of an altogether new factory in a backward area. That and the potential for 120kmph operation which I think is the overriding factor (although in reality WAG9 is already a proven at high speeds in the form of WAP7, granted it will need to be optimized for TE and braking as well if it needs to haul goods).

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 May 2020 02:04

It's probably a timeline related matter. The origin of the WAG12 project itself dates back to the late 2000s when they figured out the need for lots of UHP electric locos for the DFC. I remember it in terms of the bidding process in the early 2010s - Alstom won and a permanently coupled variant of the Prima II platform was its offering, and that became WAG12 . It went into early design in 2015-16 and came out around 2018. Meanwhile, IR came up with WAG9HH in 2019. Had they done so a few years prior, they might have been able to make a case for it instead of WAG12. Of course, now it's a question of whether 800 such WAG12s will be built, or whether it'll be split between WAG9HHs and WAG12s. A setup of 2x WAG9HHs would be north of 18000hp, making it probably the world's most powerful locomotive if it is permanently coupled as a single entity.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nachiket » 23 May 2020 02:14

Suraj wrote:A setup of 2x WAG9HHs would be north of 18000hp, making it probably the world's most powerful locomotive if it is permanently coupled as a single entity.

My question was regarding whether permanent coupling offers any advantages over just using 2 smaller locos in series. I am guessing there should be something, else they would not exist. You are essentially giving up the option to decouple them easily and use them for hauling two smaller/slower trains if needed. So we must be getting something in return. Also, the WAG-9HH may be new and came after the Alstom deal, but the original WAG-9 was still available before the deal was done right? Two of those together would be nothing to scoff at.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 23 May 2020 02:29

I was very interested in the WAG3C And WAG11. What's happening to them?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 23 May 2020 02:45

^^^ It is not just permanent coupling, it is more likely a unified control system on both tractive units. When dealing with 13,000 tonnes hurtling at 100kmph, there should be very good synchronization between the two units. Joining two units that otherwise function separately is fine but consider a situation where the lead unit brakes and the rear unit continues at 100 kmph with 13,000 tonnes, it is a recipe for disaster. Or the response time for the rear loco is not quick enough due to the way the units are coupled etc to handle higher speeds and higher loads.
The safety margin is much, much lower than a 5000 tonne freight running at say 60 kmph the IR standard now, where a slower response time for the control system is still adequate. How long will it take the rearward engine to react once it has been told to slow down? These are issues that may arise by coupling two locos that normally run separately. No such issue arises with a loco that has perpetually two units under one roof and a control system that controls the two units forever. The safety margin while operating at higher speeds and with high loads while accelerating and braking seems to be better with the Prima.

Push pull again the same. Push pull is used in the ghats as bankers, and in the very old days I recall a system of whistles used by the engine ahead and behind to coordinate their efforts. This is now done by walkie talkies etc. but again there are issues in tunnels and dead zones. But again with high speeds and huge loads, the safety margins become less. The slave loco better react in perfect tandem or else there might be a pile up.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 May 2020 02:49

Technically if coupling smaller locos was sufficient, 2x WAG7s are the same aggregate 12500hp as WAG12, and WAG12 would never have been required.

Perhaps starting tractive effort is a consideration ? WAG7s have starting tractive effort of 475kN . WAG12 has 12000hp but 785kN starting tractive effort. The single unit China Railways HXD3Bs have 12800hp but only 570kN. How does the tractive effort of 2x series locos compare to 2x permanently coupled ?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nachiket » 23 May 2020 02:56

Thanks vsunder saar. That clears my doubts.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 May 2020 08:40

Indranil wrote:I was very interested in the WAG3C And WAG11. What's happening to them?

WAG11 is an interesting beast - a diesel electric loco converted into a 2x permanently coupled UHP 12000hp electric loco:

RDSO certification
The listed specs are significantly more than the Alstom based WAG12:
Max tractive effort : 106t , or 1055kN (vs 785kN for WAG12)
Horsepower: 12000hp (on par with WAG12)
This is the WAG12 certification.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 23 May 2020 10:08

Indranil wrote:I was very interested in the WAG3C And WAG11. What's happening to them?

Conversions of both are happening, albeit in a slower-that-expected pace. The primary reason is that the loco workshops including the diesel ones like DLW and DMW are all full up producing new electric locomotives, so the work on converting D-to-E has to fall on the various smaller workshops scattered across IR. There is an EOI issued by RDSO(?) to seek a private partner for these conversions, but not sure where it's at.

But on the whole, speaking of WAG-10 (official designation for WAGC-3, apparently), it seems to have worked and RDSO has cleared it for operations up to 80kph (speed certificate). So while it won't be glamorous like the WAG-12B running on the DFC, it might end becoming a workhorse taking over ageing WAG-5s eventually with the normal goods rakes we are used to seeing. There are enough WDG-3A Alco-based locomotives (1000+) around with enough life left in them, so we can expect to see around 500 such WAG-10s eventually. But they are working against time as they need to convert them before their codal life comes to an end. Without a private partner, I don't see it happening as the workshops may not have enough capacity to churn them out in the hundreds. For this year, per reports on IRFCA, 10 WDG-3A locomotives have been sent for conversion to WAG-10, which is a pittance.

Having said that, I am not sure what the plan is for the WDM-3D locos - there around a thousand of them IIRC, and many of them are fairly new (10 years old). Since their gear ratio is for mixed traffic, they could be repurposed into a WAM-5/6 class with a twin configuration similar to WAG-10.
Last edited by arshyam on 23 May 2020 13:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 23 May 2020 10:19

WAGC-3 (WAG-10) in the wild:

Decent pickup like WAG-7 twins:


At speed, hauling empty wagons:


The first unit is based at Ludhiana and the above videos are from the surrounding areas. But it has also been spotted as far away as Ranchi, which means the loco is being used like any other loco, going wherever it needs to go. That's a sign that the loco class is successful and loco pilots are able to use it without additional training, with only production that needs to step up.


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