Electric vehicle and power storage

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csaurabh
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby csaurabh » 11 Nov 2020 14:10

nachiket wrote:I have a question about using electrolysis for commercial H2 production. Won't you have to put in as much energy (plus some more due to <100% efficiency) to split H2 and O2, that you will eventually get back from the H2 in the fuel cell? There is no net energy obtained then is there? How is this sustainable? Might be better to invest in transmission instead to make an EV charging infrastructure possible.


The H2 in this case is just a storage medium ( like Lithium battery). Additionally its advantage over the lithium battery are faster refilling time (vs recharging), and better energy density.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby nachiket » 18 Nov 2020 02:30

Uttam wrote:Think of electrolysis to produce H as a battery. Li-ion batteries are almost 99% efficient for short-term storage but they have many problems. They cost a lot, they lose charge over time, supply of Lithium is limited and strategically controlled, etc. The electrolysis H has a potential to serve as a battery for excess production from renewals. Current electrolysis tech has conversion efficiency of 60-70%. It will be similar to pumped storage (about 80%).


csaurabh wrote:The H2 in this case is just a storage medium ( like Lithium battery). Additionally its advantage over the lithium battery are faster refilling time (vs recharging), and better energy density.


Ok this makes sense. I was making the mistake of considering it as a renewable energy source, which it is definitely not, unlike solar, fossil fuels or Uranium.

Vayutuvan, I know most H2 produced today is from Natural gas, but that is not a renewable source. Might as well use the natural gas itself then.

As for the argument that using H2 fuel cells does not produce CO2 (unlike burning Methane for example), well it still produces water vapor which is also a greenhouse gas. Now the recent "zero emission" future aircraft concepts revealed by Airbus which run on H2 fuel cells make even less sense. Releasing large amounts of water vapor into the atmosphere at high altitude is nearly as bad as releasing CO2. Neither is the H2 a renewable energy source as discussed. So what problem are these aircraft supposed to solve escapes me.

csaurabh
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby csaurabh » 18 Nov 2020 10:47

H2 being produced from electrolysis of water then just produces the same water back after burning ( ie. used in fuel cell ). Nothing gained, nothing lost. Its just a storage medium. Same concept with biofuels. Also, nothing wrong releasing water high into the atmosphere. They are clouds.

If the electricity for producing H2 comes from renewables then H2 essentially behaves as a renewable energy source.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby la.khan » 18 Nov 2020 14:15

Some potential sources of Hydrogen are methane (CH₄), ammonia (NH₃), and water (H₂O).
Methane is natural gas (a fossil fuel) and is the most efficient way to extract H₂ as each molecule of methane releases 4 atoms of H₂. However, the carbon atom combines with O₂ in the atmosphere to form CO & CO₂. Ammonia is manufactured industrial quantities using Bosch Haber process. Raw material to produce ammonia is again methane. Water is abundantly available on Earth. However, not all water can be used for electrolysis. Ground water is hard water & seawater has too much salts. River water may be ideal.

There are many types of Hydrogens in the nascent H₂ industry.

1. Grey hydrogen: Uses coal to process methane, captures H₂, releases CO & CO₂ into the atmosphere. For the last few decades, this was the preferred way to produce hydrogen. Efficient but bad for environment & climate. The world must step away from this.

2. Green hydrogen: Same as above except using coal, use solar and/or wind to process methane, capture H₂, release CO & CO₂ into the atmosphere. Since coal is replaced by combination of solar/wind, pollution is down. However, the byproduct of CO & CO₂ are still harmful.

3. Blue hydrogen: Use water to separate H₂ and O₂ using electrolysis. Capture H₂ and release O₂ into the atmosphere as is or as water vapour. This is the most preferred way to do it. From wikipedia, I see that it is the least efficient method to produce H₂ (25%). On the upside, this method is already superior to petrol/diesel internal combustion engine (where tank to wheel conversion is 22-23%).

This is what I have learnt in the last few months reading H₂ news. I am willing to be corrected and here to learn.

I hope Tata/Ambani/Mahindra can get started on these emerging technologies so that we can have H₂ economy in India. This is an evolving space and Europe is ahead in research, production, storage, distribution and usage of H₂. I hear Europe has hundreds of H₂ gas stations and they have heavy trucks that deliver H₂, powered by H₂ :shock:

Vayutuvan
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 Nov 2020 08:42

nachiket wrote:Vayutuvan, I know most H2 produced today is from Natural gas, but that is not a renewable source. Might as well use the natural gas itself then.


NG is not the only methane source. There are other sources of methane that are better than renewable; they are sustainable.

Think second-generation and third-generation bio-methane. The second-generation technology is commercially viable right now. If you want, I will get you in touch with people who will give you a bankable project report. The third generation (algae farming) will be feasible in a decade or at most two.

Bio-methane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_natural_gas

Process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_digestion

European countries, especially Germany, are far ahead in Biogas technology.

The downside is that their processes are first-generation - the feedstock is the entire plant, including the edible parts. For example, the entire corn plant is fed into the digestor, corn cobs, and all.

In the second-generation process, taking the corn plant as the example feedstock, cobs can be separated and used for food, while only other biomass from the plant can be fed into the diegstor.

There is a company in Pune, which has a patented process, which competes with first-generation German processes. The netric to be used is how much biomethane per USD or INR spent.

Thrid-generation is algae grown in glass tube networks indoors or other energy crops. This is mostly at the research stage. Economics has not been worked out yet.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 20 Nov 2020 02:59

nachiket wrote:Releasing large amounts of water vapor into the atmosphere at high altitude is nearly as bad as releasing CO2.


Air travel is the last application for Biomethane. The most immediate applications are injection into the gas grid, automobiles converted to PNG, as a heating source in industrial processes, cooking gas (subsumed by injection into the gas grid), and possibly electricity generation for biomethane generation facility operations and possibly injecting into the electric grid.

The biomethane plants themselves require some amount of electricity to operate shredding the feedstock, stirring, and compressor to compress generated biomethane, and bricking the undigested residue. This residue can be used as fertilizer, especially if the biomass feedstock is mixed with chicken litter. It can also be used in industrial boilers after it is bricked. The calorific value is equal to coal on a one-to-one basis.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 20 Nov 2020 03:01

Mort Walker wrote:That's why a fuel cell which cracks natural gas CH4 is so important. The infrastructure to transport it exists, but a viable technology to separate the C-H bond doesn't at this time.


A better application is to convert automobile ICE to run on Biogas. Fuelcell tech can come later. Please see my post above. There are several other applications for Biomethane. If and when Fuel cells become commercially viable, Biomethane can be used in place of NG.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 20 Nov 2020 03:03

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

Steam reforming or steam methane reforming is a method for producing syngas (hydrogen and carbon monoxide) by a reaction of hydrocarbons with water. Commonly natural gas is the feedstock. The main purpose of this technology is hydrogen production. The reaction is represented by this equilibrium:[1]

CH4 + H2O ⇌ CO + 3 H2
The reaction is strongly endothermic (consumes heat, ΔHr= 206 kJ/mol).

Steam reforming of natural gas produces most of the world's hydrogen. Hydrogen is used in the industrial synthesis of ammonia and other chemicals.[2]


Part of Biomethane can supply the heat while the majority of the Biomethane is used up in the process to generate syngas.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 20 Nov 2020 03:13, edited 2 times in total.

Vayutuvan
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 20 Nov 2020 03:13

la.khan wrote:I hear Europe has hundreds of H₂ gas stations and they have heavy trucks that deliver H₂, powered by H₂ :shock:

Sweden uses Methane in the ICE of automobiles.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 20 Nov 2020 03:47

Vayutuvan wrote:
la.khan wrote:I hear Europe has hundreds of H₂ gas stations and they have heavy trucks that deliver H₂, powered by H₂ :shock:

Sweden uses Methane in the ICE of automobiles.


H2 has so far not found many users. H2 has to be transported and filling stations are not easy to find.

EV's have fared much better. In Norway, close to 50% of new car sold are 100% electric. The main reason is the price (tax holiday). People find they cheap to drive, they are much smoother, faster, quiet and require close to no maintenance.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 21 Nov 2020 17:53


NRao
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 21 Nov 2020 17:57



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