Indian Manufacturing Sector

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Vadivel
BRFite
Posts: 354
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Vadivel » 14 Jun 2021 19:45

We do have good water resources vis Ganga and Brhamputra

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... -a-drought


But environmental damage also needs to be taken into account. An alternate view

https://www.chinawaterrisk.org/resource ... onductors/

Vadivel
BRFite
Posts: 354
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Vadivel » 16 Jun 2021 14:40

tandav wrote:
Vadivel wrote:


Interesting that they started in 1970s and did not get very far inspite of govt help and investment. It is the private companies like INARI etc there which have lead the charge. The Govt owned SILTERRA is a loss maker second only to the Malaysian Airlines.

I think India has no entity in either front end or the back end semiconductor manufacturing process as mentioned in the clip. Not only that SEMI Conductor manufacturing requires a massive amount of water which unless we secure the Himalayas or install huge desalination plants we will not be able to get to play with the big boys.


Not only malaysia, even Singapore stumbled on trying chip manufacturing. We have to be careful and very cautious in case venturing out on this...


vcsekhar
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 13:27
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vcsekhar » 16 Jun 2021 15:40

vinamr_s wrote:vcsekhar ji,

Considering you have several years of experience in the electronic component manufacturing industry, you must be having some idea on the impact of SEZ (assuming companies you worked with were exporting). Especially, the impact on companies which aren’t/couldn’t get into an SEZ. It might be quite tough to compete with SEZ units as they get a lot of tax exemptions. Can you illuminate us on that and how exporters have been reacting all these years?

Some macro data can give us hint on export market shift to SEZ units, (and I’m trying to collect related data), but I wanted to know the reactions at the individual level.


...please no Ji for me...

I dont have much experience with the SEZ's except that some of our customers are located in an SEZ and when we supply to them, it is treated as a deemed export. But the pricing is in Rupees, so I am not sure what deemed export means.

we have not gone to an SEZ even though our business is majority export because it was not worth the hassle. If there was a new project that was large enough it would make sense, but we normally concentrate on organic growth. The main benefit that I see for the SEZ units is the ease of import of materials from abroad. Maybe someone who actually works in an SEZ manufacturing stuff would know better. One of our suppliers is located in an SEZ in mumbai and its a real pain getting anything from them quickly.

I suppose if you were a PE or VC funded company with a lot of cash, it would make sense to setup in an SEZ if your market was mostly outside of india. In any case, many of the income tax benefits of being in an SEZ are being phased out, so does it make sense to start a new unit now? I dont know.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 901
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 17 Jun 2021 15:06

I don't know what would be the problem with importing materials outside of SEZ. As long as you have your GST and IEC and pay the customs duty promptly there is no problem at all. Honestly things are very smooth these days everything is online.

vcsekhar
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 13:27
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vcsekhar » 18 Jun 2021 15:38

csaurabh wrote:I don't know what would be the problem with importing materials outside of SEZ. As long as you have your GST and IEC and pay the customs duty promptly there is no problem at all. Honestly things are very smooth these days everything is online.

I am not sure how many import shipments you handle, but, we get probably one per week or sometimes more and have been doing this for probably 35+ years. Yes, things have improved over the years. But, its still a pain and a lot of documents need to be made for every shipment. It still takes about 3 days minimum (if there are no questions) to clear customs even when a shipment is coming via Fedex or UPS. Assessments are supposed to be faceless, but, since we file under concessional duty (for our components) its not so simple and invariably the officers will ask our guys to come and meet them to "explain" everything. All of this adds a lot of time and cost to our operations.

Now, if you try to save cost and import used machinery for your factory, that is a whole different story, now you have to deal with a chartered engineer to value the machines and deal with arbitrary valuations pushed by customs for the machinery you have legitimately purchased and imported.
All of these are little impediments and when you add up everything its not very easy to run a manufacturing business.

Dexter
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 02 Apr 2019 15:22

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Dexter » 23 Jun 2021 21:52

The industry has painted itself into a corner by focusing on single-digit nanometer,” Caulfield said in an online press conference Tuesday, referring to the current obsession with smaller, more advanced manufacturing geometries. “Today we have cars sitting in a parking lot missing chips made on 45 or 65 nanometer.”

https://m.economictimes.com/small-biz/t ... 769118.cms

Can India see a market in this legacy technology where 45nm Silicon is the requirement

venkat_kv
BRFite
Posts: 163
Joined: 05 Dec 2020 21:01

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby venkat_kv » 24 Jun 2021 03:48

^^^
It would take monumental focus and dedication for Indian industry and govt to establish a 45nm. i don't think we have any fabs to do a quick manufacturing of chips (45nm or even older). we would need the private industry to come in and establish and the govt to give sops for an extended period of time for the eco system to develop.

the chip shortage is probably going to subside in a year or two and that is probably not enough time for us to capture the market by starting production afresh. besides we also have foundries being established back in the US and they will pick up some slack/market demand.

Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2349
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Ambar » 27 Jun 2021 04:11

Its been an year since Atlas Bicycles shutdown permanently and with it died a homegrown brand which back in the 60s and 70s was one of the few Indian companies to export finished goods to foreign markets. In my boyhood days there were 4 prominent bicycle manufacturers in India who produced everything from tricycles for small kids to 24 inch frame bicycles that served as transportation for the poor and the lower middleclass, these 4 brands were BSA,Hero, Atlas and Hercules. While Hero diversified into automobiles, auto ancillaries, software manufacturing finance etc, and BSA benefited from being part of the Murugappa group empire, Atlas did not diversify and paid the price. That said it was sad to see a legendary homegrown manufacturer shutdown permanently just when in the last 10 yrs fitness conscious urban Indians have once again started buying bicycles, ofcourse the difference between today and 25 yrs ago is that now there are hundreds of brands thanks to imports from China and Vietnam with little to no restriction but back in the 70s or 80s we just had 4 homegrown brands (agreed that BSA and Hercules were borrowed from Britain but their manufacturing was entirely in India).

What i'm really afraid is what may happen in say 10 or 15 yrs time if wealthy Chinese companies make a move on japanese auto manufacturers and buy them out just like Geely took over the legendry Volvo or SAIC with MG cars.

Started by Janki Das Kapoor, Atlas Cycles (Haryana) Ltd., previously known as Atlas Cycle Industries (ACIL), begin its operation with bicycle saddles in 1951 and later produced its first bicycle in 1952. The brand is named after the Greek Titan Atlas, mythically known for being condemned to hold up the sky for eternity. From a humble beginning of 120 cycles per day, the company had come a long way to progress as India’s second-largest cycle manufacturer. At the time of Atlas’s business peak, Its combined manufacturing capacity stood at a substantial 3.1 million cycles per annum. Atlas was also the largest exporter of bicycles from India, where the majority of its export was to Myanmar and South Africa. In addition to bicycles, the company exported components, bicycles, and mopeds. It also ventured into the fitness equipment market overseas.

At the peak of its success, Atlas awarded its shareholders six bonus issues between 1966 and 1994. While the rest of the world celebrated Bicycle Day on 3 June, Atlas Cycle (Haryana) Limited put its employees into temporary dismissals by merely pasting a notice outside its production plant in Sahibabad, Haryana. Over 700 employees suddenly went home without jobs on Wednesday. Atlas Cycles – a name that became a synonym for bicycles in India – has shut its last manufacturing unit in Sahibabad, just outside the national capital, citing a lack of funds to run the factory.

Earlier, the company planned to sell their portion of land to get the business going. However, the company’s spokesperson confirmed that they have been surviving unstable financial states since 2014 to the extent they were out of the capital to purchase raw material. The Sahibabad plant, capable of manufacturing four million bicycles a year, was working at less than 50 percent of its capacity. The closure notice was declared so suddenly and secretively, caught everyone by surprise that the workers’ union had little time to react.

However, the decline was not sudden. Between, 2014 and 2018, the company shut down two of its manufacturing plants. First – the Malanpur unit in Madhya Pradesh announced its closure and then, later, the Sonipat unit in 2018. One of the critical reasons for Atlas’s failure was the availability of new cheaper parts exporters from Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. These affordable parts ate in the Atlas’s share in their biggest market – India as it allowed smaller players to manufacture cost-effective bicycles. The coffin’s final nail was the duty-free import from Bangladesh and Srilanka under the Agreement on South Asia Free Trade Area (SAFTA). The move led to an influx of cheaper bicycles into the Indian market from the two countries. But the game was never fair for Atlas as Bangladesh and Srilanka have protectionist policies that levied heavy import duty on products coming from India. So, while the Indian market was flooded with export from the two countries, prominent Indian players like Atlas could not export to the two countries. It thereby led to substantial losses. The company blamed the government for being neglected by the lopsided policies.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 901
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 28 Jun 2021 12:52

https://swarajyamag.com/business/mukesh ... lonisation

I don't understand this lionization of Reliance. What exactly is the technology developed by Reliance?
They just provide good installation and services using Chinese and Western equipment. Not exactly something to be proud of.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10135
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby sum » 28 Jun 2021 14:10

Hats off to the Chinese for setting up a goal and marching towards it despite any urdle and ridicule of others around them.

Really wish we emulate the mindset behind this :
Huawei’s HiSilicon moving into advanced 5G app chips

According to an industry insider who spoke to Asia Times, you don’t need to put a 5nm chip into a laptop because processing is moving back to the center with rapid emergence of 5G.

The key is fast communications, which means the Chromebook idea could dominate the market in the future.

“You can set up massive parallel processing arrays with 14-28 nm chips that are as fast as you want, and the laptop is simply a dumb terminal for this central processor,” the insider said.

“The importance of the superfast, narrow gateway chips is exaggerated. China can now or soon will be able to produce all the 14-28nm chips it needs — and that’s 98-99% of the total market.”

China’s 30-year-long semiconductor journey has grown into a major player, accounting for nearly 13% of the global IC design market in 2020.


Amid the continuing trade and tech standoff with the US, China has been speeding up the development of domestic fabrication plants to localize the most vital elements of the technology supply chain.

In that IC assembly line, a lithography machine is fundamental to the entire manufacturing chain.

China’s “national champion” in the area, Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE), which was founded in 2002 by Shanghai Electric Group, is, per some reports, full speed ahead to develop its second-generation deep ultraviolet (DUV) immersion lithography system, which could produce down to 7nm chips with multiple patterning.

In 2002, a lithography machine technology research project was first included in China’s National High-tech R&D Program (863 Program). SMEE was founded in the same year.

Its research in the area continued in the “02 Special Project,” along with other 15 National Special Projects published in the National Outlines for Medium and Long-term Planning for Scientific and Technological Development (2006-2020) in 2006.


Since the project was launched, SMEE has gradually become the primary designer and the “integrator” of a plethora of made-in-China lithography equipment components.

By no means is this a magic carpet ride — China’s chip industry still faces massive challenges and fierce competition.

But to date, SMEE has developed 4 series of lithography machines for IC front-end manufacturing, IC back-end advanced packaging, LED/ MEMS /power devices and TFT circuit manufacturing.

As of June 2021, SMEE’s most advanced device is its “600 series” scanner for IC front-end manufacturing. This machine can be used to build chips at the 90nm, 110nm and 280nm process technologies.

“It’s very unlikely that the US will remove us from the Entity List,” billionaire founder Ren Zhengfei said in February at the opening of a mining innovation laboratory partly sponsored by Huawei. “Right now, we just want to work harder and keep looking for new opportunities to survive.”

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8808
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2021 16:19

csaurabh wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/business/mukesh-ambani-puts-reliance-at-forefront-of-indias-resistance-against-digital-colonisation

I don't understand this lionization of Reliance. What exactly is the technology developed by Reliance?
They just provide good installation and services using Chinese and Western equipment. Not exactly something to be proud of.



They have developed domestic 5g network. The fabrication will have to be done by overseas partners. But the technology is Indian.

As a matter of fact Airtel has also developed this technology. But they are may be 9 to 12 months behind reliance. In terms of execution.

That is why the article is saying what it is.

Tech is important. Fabrication can follow in due course of time.

isubodh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 77
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 18:23

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby isubodh » 28 Jun 2021 16:20

csaurabh wrote:They just provide good installation and services using Chinese and Western equipment. Not exactly something to be proud of.

With a child watching him stand up own it's legs itself is a big feat. Have patience it will run someday :wink:

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 901
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 29 Jun 2021 10:16

Pratyush wrote:They have developed domestic 5g network. The fabrication will have to be done by overseas partners. But the technology is Indian.

As a matter of fact Airtel has also developed this technology. But they are may be 9 to 12 months behind reliance. In terms of execution.

That is why the article is saying what it is.

Tech is important. Fabrication can follow in due course of time.


Haan ji, I am hearing this for some time now. Reliance will develop 5G, Reliance will develop smartphone, etc.
But if you look at the fine print, Reliance is basically making deals with companies like Sony Ericsson for telecom equipment and LG for phone making, and providing them services and installation. That is classic baniyagiri, not indigenization.

Fact is as far as I know Reliance has not developed a single switch, router, load balancer, communication antenna , RF transceivers or any piece of telecom equipment. Expecting them to suddenly develop 5G is about as believable as Pakistan claiming it has sent astronauts to Jupiter.

I think many people want to believe Reliance to be our equivalent of Huawei or Apple or whatever and forget that its just a services company like Infosys. Mukesh Ambani has openly said he is a baniya and doesn't believe in R&D so what do you expect.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chola » 29 Jun 2021 15:49

Dexter wrote:The industry has painted itself into a corner by focusing on single-digit nanometer,” Caulfield said in an online press conference Tuesday, referring to the current obsession with smaller, more advanced manufacturing geometries. “Today we have cars sitting in a parking lot missing chips made on 45 or 65 nanometer.”

https://m.economictimes.com/small-biz/t ... 769118.cms

Can India see a market in this legacy technology where 45nm Silicon is the requirement


India needs to be in the silicon chip business. Without some capacity we will always be dependent on outsiders for one of the commanding heights industries of the 21st century.

Think of the issues affecting us from the lack of domestic aero engines but a thousand times worse because the chip is a 1000 times more important for our technological and economic independence.

The mature processes like the 45nm is really the only place where India can credibly make an initial foray. Even the US and Cheen are not in the leading edge single-digit nm game. In fact, most of that capacity is concentrated in a single Taiwanese company TMSC and the remainder in Samsung.

Not everything needs to be a 7nm super chip. Intel is still a massive and still dominant PC player with its 14nm. But phones and personal computers aside, the vast majority of uses for chips -- from autos to home appliances to even military and space equipment -- are in 28nm and up.

India has to create some ability to make chips. The global technology scene is fracturing over the vulnerability of chips being concentrated in a few places. The US, Cheen, EU and Japan are all pouring resources into creating domestic chip capacity. With AI, Internet of Things and 5G/6G coming, chips are in everything. India has to be in the game or it'll be dependent on others.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chola » 29 Jun 2021 16:10

sum wrote:Hats off to the Chinese for setting up a goal and marching towards it despite any urdle and ridicule of others around them.

Really wish we emulate the mindset behind this :
Huawei’s HiSilicon moving into advanced 5G app chips


Unkil's technology war can break Cheen or drive it to greater heights. Huawei could collapse without US associated chips and software or they could come up with their own. Because of the huge home market, Huawei has a better than equal chance of surviving and then expanding again once their supply chains are reworked.

I fear the Amreeka-Cheen rivalry will drive a lot of new capability and capacity for China. Just look at the chini space program in the last few months -- lunar dirt retrieval, Mars rover and space station -- all driven by a need to match Unkil. In fact, the space station and their Beidou gps equivalent were direct results of their US-pushed ban from ISS and Gallileo.

We should take up this challenge too if we truly see ourselves as Cheen's rival. It will drive us forward.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1006
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby V_Raman » 30 Jun 2021 10:44

Getting chip manufacturing in india is not easy. the skilled labor required is just not there. nor the education system to generate such workers. at this stage - i think it is impossible for india to enter the chip market in a meaningful way including 45nm. there is more chances of it moving to USA than anywhere else. they have the education system to support it. more indians will come to USA for those masters degrees and work in those companies.
Last edited by V_Raman on 30 Jun 2021 11:18, edited 1 time in total.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10135
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby sum » 30 Jun 2021 10:49

The mature processes like the 45nm is really the only place where India can credibly make an initial foray. Even the US and Cheen are not in the leading edge single-digit nm game. In fact, most of that capacity is concentrated in a single Taiwanese company TMSC and the remainder in Samsung.

The word "mature node" might apply for nations have a semicon base but getting to 45nm for a nation like India with ~0 base in any semicon manufacturing ( except some super legacy fabs in ISRO?DRDO etc which are not geared towards this application anyway) is anything but a done deal

I would expect the same story as jet engines/Kaveri where we will keep hearing about how we can get it done and it isn't insurmountable but will finally have 0 to show after even 2-3 decades of being shown dreams

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chola » 30 Jun 2021 11:27

sum wrote:
The mature processes like the 45nm is really the only place where India can credibly make an initial foray. Even the US and Cheen are not in the leading edge single-digit nm game. In fact, most of that capacity is concentrated in a single Taiwanese company TMSC and the remainder in Samsung.

The word "mature node" might apply for nations have a semicon base but getting to 45nm for a nation like India with ~0 base in any semicon manufacturing ( except some super legacy fabs in ISRO?DRDO etc which are not geared towards this application anyway) is anything but a done deal

I would expect the same story as jet engines/Kaveri where we will keep hearing about how we can get it done and it isn't insurmountable but will finally have 0 to show after even 2-3 decades of being shown dreams


It will always be impossible unless we take that first step. Whatever the state of the Kaveri, it is there and it has potential and irregardless of whether Kaveri itself realizes that potential, we've created a process for developing engines that will definitely help the next project.

So even if we fail at a first attempt at a chip foundry, it will gain us experience for the next. Truthfully, I can't even imagine where we'll be without some sort of capacity when all the major powers are securing their own secure chips supply. The age of AI and automation is coming fast and furious.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chola » 02 Jul 2021 16:48

I don't think we understand just how perilous a position we are in without some sort of chip capacity. Access to chips is like oil to any industrialized economy. Without it, you will inevitably lose to rivals who do.

https://amp.scmp.com/business/companies/article/3139342/chinese-carmakers-see-overseas-sales-double-global-chip-shortage

Chinese carmakers see overseas sales double as global chip shortage hits US, European rivals harder

* Mainland China’s vehicle manufacturers exported 760,000 units between January and May, up 103 per cent from a year ago

* Their performance was buoyed by a strong recovery in production after the Covid-19 pandemic was largely contained


Daniel Ren
Published: 6:30pm, 30 Jun, 2021

Chinese carmakers became beneficiaries of a global shortage of semiconductors, with their outbound shipments more than doubling as American and European rivals fell behind. Mainland vehicle manufacturers exported 760,000 units between January and May, up 103 per cent from a year ago.




Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests