Indian Roads Thread

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Vips
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Vips »

India builds highest motorable road in the world in eastern Ladakh.

Image

The Border Roads Organisation (BRO) has constructed the highest motorable road in the world at 19,300 feet at Umlingla Pass in Eastern Ladakh, creating a global record in high-altitude road construction.

Here's all you need to know:
* The 52-km long tarmac road runs through Umlingla Pass and has broken the previous record of a road in Bolivia connecting to its volcano Uturuncu
at 18,953 ft.

* The road will connect the important towns in Chumar sector of Eastern Ladakh.

* It will improve the lives of the locals by offering an alternative direct route connecting Chisumle and Demchok from Leh.

* The road has been constructed at an altitude higher than the Mt Everest Base Camps as the South Base Camp in Nepal is at an altitude of 17,598 ft.

Image

* It has been constructed much above the altitude of Siachen Glacier which is at 17,700 ft. The Khardung La Pass in Leh is at an altitude of 17,582 ft.

* The road is expected to enhance the socio-economic condition and promote tourism in Ladakh.

* Building the road was no easy feat as the temperature in the area dips to -40 degrees during the winter and the oxygen level at this altitude is almost 50 percent less than at normal places
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

As usual the Road minister is on his destructive ways.

There is already a train that runs 2 hours between the two cities. As usual this minister is encouraging massive road and car culture where the ROI is minimal. Let the biodiversity be damned and let a country with minimal per capita land per person + minimal per capita trees per person be damned. What is the ROI of this nonsense? Reducing the time by 90 minutes and destroying so much. It is also thousands of crores.
https://twitter.com/nitin_gadkari/statu ... 1364149254
10-lane Bengaluru-Mysuru Economic Corridor is being constructed at record speed. Rs 8172 Cr economic corridor is likely to be completed by October 2022. It will reduce the travel time between the two cities by half from current 3 hours to only 90 minutes. #PragatiKaHighway

There was a whole study on how this road obsession in the last 5 years will cost us heavily because it is disincenting rail travel. People have to start questioning these sort of unnecessary and damaging investments.

This unnecessary investment should be given to ISRO. The ROI will be far greater. Or better still DRDO.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Ambar »

There isn't much biodiversity left between Bangalore and Mysore, but what this will do is expedite Bangalore's unstoppable and unplanned expansion which will engulf and usurp the heritage city of Mysore where atleast some of that old, small city charm exists (although the Bangalore IT crowd ensures that any remaining "charm" gets obliterated every weekend). The same is happening in the north & west as well as Bangalore expands towards Tumkur and Hoskote, a process hastened by the rapid construction of multi-lane highways. It is great for business and employment but not so great for the quality of life of those who live in smaller towns.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Prasad »

Having used that road earlier, it was terrible. A better road was always needed.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by bharathp »

Jarita wrote:As usual the Road minister is on his destructive ways.

There is already a train that runs 2 hours between the two cities. As usual this minister is encouraging massive road and car culture where the ROI is minimal. Let the biodiversity be damned and let a country with minimal per capita land per person + minimal per capita trees per person be damned. What is the ROI of this nonsense? Reducing the time by 90 minutes and destroying so much. It is also thousands of crores.

There was a whole study on how this road obsession in the last 5 years will cost us heavily because it is disincenting rail travel. People have to start questioning these sort of unnecessary and damaging investments.

This unnecessary investment should be given to ISRO. The ROI will be far greater. Or better still DRDO.
can you please post a link to the studyon the road obsession thing?
having multiple modes of transport will be very helpful in case of one gets affected.
better roads actually lead to reduced emissions in the long term (better vehicles/ battery cars)
for India's population, its better to have connectivity between hinterland and mega cities.

for preserving our ecosystem, we shuold start with population control
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by arshyam »

Let's stop all construction and go back to the olden days of the 2-lane SH-17 that took 4+ hours for this 120-odd km. Oil companies will be very happy as mileage would be piss poor and more fuel would be purchased from their outlets. Same for hospitals and the like, due to a steady stream of accident cases that would inevitably show up daily. Local puncher (sic) shops, tea sellers in Mandya bus stand, etc. will also have better business as interminable journeys would cause wear and tear, human and machine alike.

Want to preserve biodiversity? Then focus on distributing population by developing places equitably, instead of putting all eggs into the one basket that is BLR that ends up sucking resources from all around. Same for other megacities across the country.

I am not saying we should ignore all ecological considerations, but to try and find a balance. People's lives get better with better infra. Road or rail does not matter. The same argument can be given for doubling the Bangalore-Mysore rail line, before which train journeys too used to take 4 hours. Is that acceptable? Is so, why?

I just drove from Mangalore last week, and the road condition easily added 2 hours to the travel time. We were lucky that a landslide had diverted lorry traffic through some other route, otherwise it would have taken even longer through the ghat. A simple straightening of the highway and 4-laning of the non-ghat section would go a long way in making the route more efficient and safer. Even better would be a 4-lane tunnel through the ghats and close the existing route. We have better tech and can find an acceptable via media. Though if this were umreeka, we'd all be enjoying a freeway ride at 60-70mph, mountains or no mountains. In fact, that was exactly what I was thinking when navigating the ghat section - the I-90 freeway east of Seattle cuts through the higher Cascade mountains with nary a word about biodiversity, and allows motorists to maintain a constant speed. If anything, the road is wider through the "ghat" area, so trucks could have a dedicated climb lane. Result? Logistics costs are hardly 10-12%, compared to around 20% for us. All this is possible because they had first built up the infra their population needed before starting to worry about these things. Somehow, it is supposed to be the opposite for us. Again, no need to follow them completely, let's find a balance.

A series of good highways through the western ghat, but spaced 300km apart would ease connectivity along existing major corridors - Nagercoil-Trivandrum route, Palghat gap, Shiradi ghat (Mangalore - BLR), Bhor ghat (Pune-Mumbai), and maybe one additional corridor to Goa. Rest can be slow roads, as long as they are decently paved. Where possible, build tunnels/overpasses to minimize animal conflicts, and restrict traffic on the really critical sections. Find alternative routes for the roads though Bandipur, etc. These all are easier said than done, and would invariably cost a huge amount of money that we may not be willing to pay for. But it is still better than not building infra in the name of biodiversity, and suffering its consequences.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by hnair »

Shree Gadkari is one minister who delivers and there are many knives out to get him, from both within and outside the party for his independent views. But not even his worst enemies accuse him of being behind the appalling state of a lot of our urban or rural greenery. So it is odd to see him being tarred with that brush here.

Mysore to Bangalore was a nightmare since 1990s when I first rode to Kodagu during weekends. I almost lost a friend who got tossed by a gutter on to incoming traffic. Fortunately everyone was able to brake and stop before a fatality happened. A good connector is a must. India will need a dense rail and road cluster. Not one or the other.

arshyam, since you mentioned Nagarkovil-Trivandrum, the new alignment of NH66 goes along the coast in parallel to the old route of the now de-notified NH47. So your parallel road concept is already there. The old NH47 alignment is being made into a six lane state highway from Trivandrum to Parassala (border town with TN) due to rapid development of southern suburbs of the city and also due to upcoming Vizhinjam port. But the TN side till Kanyakumari is not going to be developed, because of unknown reasons. Since it is a state highway now, the six-laning is painfully slow (10kms of total 28 completed over 6 years) due to urban nature of land acquisition in the first stages. But hoping the remaining one is faster.

So by 2025, there will be two parallel expressways/wide roads: the old nh47 (now state highway) till parassala/Marthandam and the full on Gadkari-grade expressway till Kanyakumari that is NH66. Also a ring road called OAGC project is approved, which will go around eastern parts of city (close to LPSC valiyamala) and thence on to Punalur -> Thenkasi -> Madurai. That is one scenic rout which will allow us to skip the current choke point of Nagarkovil-Panagudi (will get worse with port inauguration) when going towards Bangalore/Chennai and help develop Thenkasi etc. Hope Gadkariji does his magic as he promised during a visit to our parts !!
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Ambar »

Infra development and green coverage should go hand in hand but sadly we are not seeing that. The former NH 48/NH 17 (now labeled as NH75) is something that i've used thousands of times. The old 2 carriage highway had huge trees planted on both sides when it was originally constructed in the 1940s, but 10 years after they chopped all those old trees to make way for multi lane highway they are yet to plant a single shrub let alone a tree. Same with the Shiradi ghats too where once it used to be lush green throughout the year but is now more than 70% barren thanks to mining. So one cannot be at the cost of another, we have done tremendous ecological damage which is made so much worse thanks to our sheer population . So while we are razing whatever is left of our green cover to make way for train tracks and highways, we need to ensure we are replacing the lost greenery elsewhere.

As far as even distribution of development, sorry, its not happening anytime soon. Politicians from all parties own majority of the real estate in metros, so they have little incentive to let labor incentive industries move elsewhere. Hence you'll continue to see cities like Bangalore which were not even designed to hold 2 million people, accommodate 6x or 7x that number today.
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Post by Prem Kumar »

This roads/cars vs rails/public-transport is also going to be a weaker argument going forward because cars are all going to become electric in the next 2 - 3 decades max and non-polluting.

A lot of the ecosystem, social type problems that NGOs love to bleed-heart about, will actually get solved by technology, not placard'ing
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by arshyam »

Ambar wrote:As far as even distribution of development, sorry, its not happening anytime soon. Politicians from all parties own majority of the real estate in metros, so they have little incentive to let labor incentive industries move elsewhere. Hence you'll continue to see cities like Bangalore which were not even designed to hold 2 million people, accommodate 6x or 7x that number today.
In that case, why blame the one guy trying to build better connectivity so people could at least move about? Clearly, the root of the problem is elsewhere.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by arshyam »

hnair wrote:arshyam, since you mentioned Nagarkovil-Trivandrum, the new alignment of NH66 goes along the coast in parallel to the old route of the now de-notified NH47. So your parallel road concept is already there. The old NH47 alignment is being made into a six lane state highway from Trivandrum to Parassala (border town with TN) due to rapid development of southern suburbs of the city and also due to upcoming Vizhinjam port. But the TN side till Kanyakumari is not going to be developed, because of unknown reasons. Since it is a state highway now, the six-laning is painfully slow (10kms of total 28 completed over 6 years) due to urban nature of land acquisition in the first stages. But hoping the remaining one is faster.

So by 2025, there will be two parallel expressways/wide roads: the old nh47 (now state highway) till parassala/Marthandam and the full on Gadkari-grade expressway till Kanyakumari that is NH66. Also a ring road called OAGC project is approved, which will go around eastern parts of city (close to LPSC valiyamala) and thence on to Punalur -> Thenkasi -> Madurai. That is one scenic rout which will allow us to skip the current choke point of Nagarkovil-Panagudi (will get worse with port inauguration) when going towards Bangalore/Chennai and help develop Thenkasi etc. Hope Gadkariji does his magic as he promised during a visit to our parts !!
Interesting, thanks for the details. I knew NH-66 was being upgraded in this stretch, but was not aware that it was on an entirely different alignment.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

Ambar wrote:Infra development and green coverage should go hand in hand but sadly we are not seeing that. The former NH 48/NH 17 (now labeled as NH75) is something that i've used thousands of times. The old 2 carriage highway had huge trees planted on both sides when it was originally constructed in the 1940s, but 10 years after they chopped all those old trees to make way for multi lane highway they are yet to plant a single shrub let alone a tree. Same with the Shiradi ghats too where once it used to be lush green throughout the year but is now more than 70% barren thanks to mining. So one cannot be at the cost of another, we have done tremendous ecological damage which is made so much worse thanks to our sheer population . So while we are razing whatever is left of our green cover to make way for train tracks and highways, we need to ensure we are replacing the lost greenery elsewhere.

As far as even distribution of development, sorry, its not happening anytime soon. Politicians from all parties own majority of the real estate in metros, so they have little incentive to let labor incentive industries move elsewhere. Hence you'll continue to see cities like Bangalore which were not even designed to hold 2 million people, accommodate 6x or 7x that number today.

That is not going to happen. The argument of electric cars does not hold in this case. They may be non polluting from an emissions perspective but cars are public cost monsters from the real estate grabbed for 1000 lane highways, parking and garages. That itself is enormously destructive.
The key word is to FIX existing roads and not continuously expand them. There is no end to that. Once you expand roads, that itself becomes a driver for increased cars. The automobile lobby is a huge beneficiary but at great cost. A country like India cannot sing the saga of electric cars only. We have to incentivize rail transportation and build car-free clusters. That sort of thinking is essential. Rails can be destructive but because of the load they carry, the per zone impact is lower than roads.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

I just drove from Mangalore last week, and the road condition easily added 2 hours to the travel time. We were lucky that a landslide had diverted lorry traffic through some other route, otherwise it would have taken even longer through the ghat. A simple straightening of the highway and 4-laning of the non-ghat section would go a long way in making the route more efficient and safer. Even better would be a 4-lane tunnel through the ghats and close the existing route. We have better tech and can find an acceptable via media. Though if this were umreeka, we'd all be enjoying a freeway ride at 60-70mph, mountains or no mountains. In fact, that was exactly what I was thinking when navigating the ghat section - the I-90 freeway east of Seattle cuts through the higher Cascade mountains with nary a word about biodiversity, and allows motorists to maintain a constant speed. If anything, the road is wider through the "ghat" area, so trucks could have a dedicated climb lane. Result? Logistics costs are hardly 10-12%, compared to around 20% for us. All this is possible because they had first built up the infra their population needed before starting to worry about these things. Somehow, it is supposed to be the opposite for us. Again, no need to follow them completely, let's find a balance.
How on earth can you compare India to America? They have 12X per capita land resources. The country itself is new. India has to think differently with both the population and biodiversity. By the way if you want to keep comparing to America - AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in the US 700+. AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in INDIA 28


Do people not understand the gravity of the situation in India? I am so surprised at the attitude of folks where living a normal clean life and preserving biodiversity is a sideline and must be disregarded for some copy of the US.

Also those animal bypasses and overpasses don't work. There is still a profuse destruction and compartmentalization of the forest which leads to rapid extinction of animal and plant species. Why do you think so many landslides are happening? When you build multi lane roads through protected forests you give access to all those who you want to keep away from the forests as well - the squatters, the loggers, the hunters, the illegals who set up shops and interesting establishments on the sides of the roads. These protected forests are our lungs and our source of a great deal of flora and fauna.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by venkat_kv »

Jarita wrote:
I just drove from Mangalore last week, and the road condition easily added 2 hours to the travel time. .... snip. All this is possible because they had first built up the infra their population needed before starting to worry about these things. Somehow, it is supposed to be the opposite for us. Again, no need to follow them completely, let's find a balance.
How on earth can you compare India to America? They have 12X per capita land resources. The country itself is new. India has to think differently with both the population and biodiversity. By the way if you want to keep comparing to America - AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in the US 700+. AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in INDIA 28


Do people not understand the gravity of the situation in India? I am so surprised at the attitude of folks where living a normal clean life and preserving biodiversity is a sideline and must be disregarded for some copy of the US.

Also those animal bypasses and overpasses don't work. There is still a profuse destruction and compartmentalization of the forest which leads to rapid extinction of animal and plant species. Why do you think so many landslides are happening? When you build multi lane roads through protected forests you give access to all those who you want to keep away from the forests as well - the squatters, the loggers, the hunters, the illegals who set up shops and interesting establishments on the sides of the roads. These protected forests are our lungs and our source of a great deal of flora and fauna.
Jarita Saar,
Shouldn't connectivity and upliftment of people also go hand in hand with bio-diversity. What is the point of having bio-diversity when things are slow in the country and logistics cost us a lot which again has an effect on the economy and ultimately peoples lives. You can have a forest and green cover, but when you can't eat 2 meals an day and buy things for basic comfort, do you think people will eventually care or give a damn about 'biodiversity'.

Your argument about disincentivizing people to use roads and asking people to use rail transport has some loopholes. It would need expansion of rail infra and rail with its diesel engines is no less polluting. what will the concerned person do after getting down in the city/destination. he will still have to use taxis/autos to get to his place of work or business. And discouraging people by forcibly not developing road infra in cities sounds a lot like the argument about border infra not being developed to stop the chinese. we are calling our increased logistic cost as a love for our bio-diversity which also sounds a lot like Hindu rate of growth argument we had in the pre-liberalization times.

With all due respect to your love of green cover and biodiversity which I also support, what you need is the expansion of infrastructure and then complementary green cover around the infrastructure and else where, something which AmberJi also points out.. the second part can be done by identifying places and planting trees/plants/shrubs. But what we have are activists pontificating using placards as another poster has pointed out. once you have fleshed out the major nodes and transport corridors, you can start putting in the green cover. That in itself will take a lot more dedication than collaborating with toolkits with an uneducated, ignorant scandanavian twit.

Cars are seen as a tools for social mobility as well. try telling the person who has a small car/no car to not buy a bigger one because of 'biodiversity'. You can bet your last coin that he will go ahead with his purchase just to spite your argument. You need to educate people on a larger scale to use public transport if they can and also take walks or travel by bicycle for local travel and plant trees if they can. But that would involve in getting a bike lane in an already crowded location like bangalore, isn't it Jarita Ji?

The other argument of lungs of the city will only give a sensational headline for a week or so without addressing the crux of the problem.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

^^^ It's not one or the other. And by the time anything is replanted, it will just be too late.
Very deliberately an image has been painted of people looking for environmental restoration, as card carrying anti national activists. There are however, plenty of us who are pro CAA and NRC and yet alarmed by the destructive policy making.
People are literally missing the forest for the trees.
Yes there is destruction with railways too but the per capita impact is still much lower than roads and the domino effect they set off. Fix the existing roads, but this madness to constantly expand the lanes and build more and more highways comes across as nefarious in a land starved country like India.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by sudarshan »

When in doubt, go with hard data. What is the actual road density in km/km^2 for India, as compared to other countries?

https://vividmaps.com/country-highest-road-density/

I fully expected to see that India would have a very low road density. I was wrong, to my surprise. Most sources place India within the top 10 or top 20 in the world for road density. I guess it depends on how each source defines "road." European countries are comparable to, or higher than India. The US, it seems, is 1/2 to 1/4th of India (depending on the source - but the US is consistently placed below India). Could just be the larger land area.

In the link above, I suspect they are counting every single village 1/2 lane road in the stats for India. Highways-wise, India would probably fare poorly.

But still, on the face of it, it seems Jarita (ma'am?) would have a point. Widening existing roads would be the way to go.

Another source: https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Road-density

Leaving aside places like Macao, San Marino, Singapore, etc., India is close to top 10 as per the above.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by arshyam »

Jarita wrote:Yes there is destruction with railways too but the per capita impact is still much lower than roads and the domino effect they set off. Fix the existing roads, but this madness to constantly expand the lanes and build more and more highways comes across as nefarious in a land starved country like India.
I see. So is it fair to assume you are in favour of the rail line between Mysore and Kerala via Bandipur and Wayanad? All your arguments seem to be in the direction of disallowing roads and build rail. Okay, so let's build this rail line and close the road to Bandipur, which btw, I too pointed out as an issue to be fixed in my original post (though my solution was different).
Jarita wrote:
I just drove from Mangalore last week, and the road condition easily added 2 hours to the travel time. We were lucky that a landslide had diverted lorry traffic through some other route, otherwise it would have taken even longer through the ghat. A simple straightening of the highway and 4-laning of the non-ghat section would go a long way in making the route more efficient and safer. Even better would be a 4-lane tunnel through the ghats and close the existing route. We have better tech and can find an acceptable via media. Though if this were umreeka, we'd all be enjoying a freeway ride at 60-70mph, mountains or no mountains. In fact, that was exactly what I was thinking when navigating the ghat section - the I-90 freeway east of Seattle cuts through the higher Cascade mountains with nary a word about biodiversity, and allows motorists to maintain a constant speed. If anything, the road is wider through the "ghat" area, so trucks could have a dedicated climb lane. Result? Logistics costs are hardly 10-12%, compared to around 20% for us. All this is possible because they had first built up the infra their population needed before starting to worry about these things. Somehow, it is supposed to be the opposite for us. Again, no need to follow them completely, let's find a balance.
How on earth can you compare India to America? They have 12X per capita land resources. The country itself is new. India has to think differently with both the population and biodiversity. By the way if you want to keep comparing to America - AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in the US 700+. AVERAGE TREES PER CAPITA in INDIA 28


Do people not understand the gravity of the situation in India? I am so surprised at the attitude of folks where living a normal clean life and preserving biodiversity is a sideline and must be disregarded for some copy of the US.

Also those animal bypasses and overpasses don't work. There is still a profuse destruction and compartmentalization of the forest which leads to rapid extinction of animal and plant species. Why do you think so many landslides are happening? When you build multi lane roads through protected forests you give access to all those who you want to keep away from the forests as well - the squatters, the loggers, the hunters, the illegals who set up shops and interesting establishments on the sides of the roads. These protected forests are our lungs and our source of a great deal of flora and fauna.
I did say we should not blindly copy America either, but pointed out how they had improved their people's lives first so they could afford looking at these issues. But when one is on a hyper-ventilating mode, reading a detailed post is a challenge.

Just like painting all activism as anti-national is wrong, the opposite way of painting all those seeking development as being blind to environment is also wrong. As I said earlier, we need to find a balance. What is that?

P.S. When quoting someone's post, kindly include the name of the poster so they know they've been replied to.
P.P.S. What is your suggested solution for a) improving infra to improve our quality of life, b) reducing logistics cost so we are competitive in exports and even domestic goods, and c) preserve our environment. Let's talk specifics instead of rhetoric.
P.P.P.S. I am one of those idealists who takes the bus and train wherever possible and eschews taxis and autos. Be it BLR, Chennai, Delhi, Mumbai, etc. That said, I do love driving and enjoy the occasional long drive, but for day to day usage, use public transport. I am usually the only one in my apartment society or office building to do so though. So, clearly your ideal of having only public transport and little private transport has some ways to go, starting with convincing people to switch. That they prefer private transport is also an indictment of the state of our public transport, and without fixing basics like that, it's going to be difficult for people to see your PoV.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by arshyam »

sudarshan wrote:Widening existing roads would be the way to go.
Which is what the BLR-MYS corridor work is, but that somehow set off this round of heated rhetoric. :)

[Added l8r] Thanks for the data, that is interesting for sure. I am all for widening existing roads with better design for safety and speed, but let's talk land acquisition, and the absence of an eminent domain law. New alignments came about only because expanding the existing ones became so cost-prohibitive, and in states like Kerala, legally impossible.

The challenge clearly is structural and has multiple issues interlinked to it, so it is not some simple school-level good vs evil type argument as is being portrayed by Jarita's breathless posts. As I see it, from Jarita-ji's posts, the only solution is to condemn our people to live in penury and somehow reduce our population so drastically that no one ends up living within 100km of any forest or scrub land or fallow field. Basically, go back two thousand years, but even then, projects like Karikalan's Kaveri dam would have been opposed in the name of humans being hunter-gatherers :). I hope I am wrong, but in the absence of any concrete real-world suggestions, that's what it looks like.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

sudarshan wrote:When in doubt, go with hard data. What is the actual road density in km/km^2 for India, as compared to other countries?

https://vividmaps.com/country-highest-road-density/

I fully expected to see that India would have a very low road density. I was wrong, to my surprise. Most sources place India within the top 10 or top 20 in the world for road density. I guess it depends on how each source defines "road." European countries are comparable to, or higher than India. The US, it seems, is 1/2 to 1/4th of India (depending on the source - but the US is consistently placed below India). Could just be the larger land area.

In the link above, I suspect they are counting every single village 1/2 lane road in the stats for India. Highways-wise, India would probably fare poorly.

But still, on the face of it, it seems Jarita (ma'am?) would have a point. Widening existing roads would be the way to go.

Another source: https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Road-density

Leaving aside places like Macao, San Marino, Singapore, etc., India is close to top 10 as per the above.
Thanks Sudarshanji. Be careful else these binary folk will dismiss you as breathless and hyperventilating as well. Anyone who speaks for a certain standard of live ability is dismissed as a card carrying activist. The average trees per capita is also a very valid number for us. We are one of the lowest in the world and that directly relates to health, bio diversity and live ability issues.
Our road density is higher because our land per capita is one of the lowest in the world. Our logistics and transportation strategy has to reflect that density of population and the requirements for greening and preservation of bio diversity. We have to become a nation of car free zones (so that more people can live and function in those areas) and significant public transportation. We must also treat our last few virgin forests (10 -15 percent / don’t include the new green cover and plantations for now) as sacrosanct and not to be compartmentalized. That requires a commitment that nothing will be built through this area of 10-15 land. That is surely something we can do.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by sudarshan »

arshyam wrote:Basically, go back two thousand years, but even then, projects like Karikalan's Kaveri dam would have been opposed in the name of humans being hunter-gatherers :).
Yes, I used to be staunchly for the "environment," but started realizing that any attempt to improve quality of life, is guaranteed to have an environmental impact. We think of the wide roads of Kanchi as our glorious heritage, but back then, they weren't in it to build heritage, they were in it to improve people's lives. Any activists back then would have been summarily dealt with. The same with all the Chola era thangals (lakes for rain water harvesting), which we today laud for their foresight, but back then, they would have submerged a lot of vegetation. And talk about building temples with their gopurams, taming and harnessing otherwise free wild elephants. And especially all the pristine rock chopped up to make those marvelous sculptures (with all the attendant silica dust and debris and - most likely - lung cancer issues).

Back to today, however it is calculated, it seems India does have a pretty decent road density. Though it would seem that the density of houses in Indian cities would contribute to that, with the narrow strip of land between each row of houses automatically counting as a "road." I don't know too much about the highway side of things, but it seems one of the ways to reduce congestion within narrow city roads, would be to declare each of them a one-way road, alternating directions. It would make for somewhat longer commutes, but the hassle of trying to pass two wide cars going in opposite directions on the same road would be gone.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by sudarshan »

Jarita wrote: Thanks Sudarshanji. Be careful else these binary folk will dismiss you as breathless and hyperventilating as well. Anyone who speaks for a certain standard of live ability is dismissed as a card carrying activist.
Ji, not to speak for others, but I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you on the need to have respect for the environment. But please do think of the implications of what you're saying.
The average trees per capita is also a very valid number for us. We are one of the lowest in the world and that directly relates to health, bio diversity and live ability issues.
Until the population falls, there's not much we can do here. For example - the US has about 36% forest cover. India has 4 times the population of the US. So matching the US number on per capita trees, would mean that India should have four times the number of trees as the US. A tree takes about the same area, India or the US, so four times the raw forest area. On 1/3rd the land area. Which means - 36% times 12 = Impossible. For a more extreme example, try matching Russia or Canada on that one! Countries like Suriname are also pretty extreme. No amount of tree planting is going to help here, even to get close to the world average.

India can try to match the world average on % forest cover, that's doable. But per capita - forget about it.
Our road density is higher because our land per capita is one of the lowest in the world.
That is true. I believe however, that a bigger reason, is that the metric is false to begin with. For example - the minimum lane width in India is supposed to be 2.5 m, or about 8 feet. In Indian cities, the entire street road, both lanes, would be that width. In the US, the minimum lane width is 3.7 m, or 12 feet. So a four-lane road would be easily 50 feet in width, more like 60 or even a 100, with medians and shoulders. Europe would be similar. That counts the same as an 8 foot wide two-way road in India?

I think a better standard would be to calculate road area per land area, something like km-foot per km^2. India would fare much more poorly then. So when you say "widen existing roads," that is going to have almost as big an environmental impact, as building a new one. Because the road area per land area is going to jump two to five fold for the widened section.
Our logistics and transportation strategy has to reflect that density of population and the requirements for greening and preservation of bio diversity. We have to become a nation of car free zones (so that more people can live and function in those areas) and significant public transportation.
I'm conflicted on this. I do believe public transportation would have a smaller impact, but last-mile connectivity can't happen with public transport, unless you're talking of a significant number of street cars and trams in every single Indian city. There's only so much that people can walk or bike. Street cars and trams would require much wider roads.
We must also treat our last few virgin forests (10 -15 percent / don’t include the new green cover and plantations for now) as sacrosanct and not to be compartmentalized. That requires a commitment that nothing will be built through this area of 10-15 land. That is surely something we can do.
Again, what are the implications? Do we want people to interact with those forests or not? If the general public doesn't get to interact with forests, they lose respect for them, start fearing them. A few generations down the road, when we are all dead and gone, a govt. can easily make a case to our descendants, now terrified of forests, that we don't need them at all!

Should the public only interact with the new forest areas, not the virgin ones? That principle has its own problems.

General public or not, we still need rangers and workers, scientists and other professionals, interacting with those forests. Virgin forests would be of greatest interest to those professionals. Those folks are going to need connectivity, at least till the forest edge, even trekking requires some decent trails. Within the forest, there is again a need for trails, if not, people are going to be dying in there, with their gadgets and gizmos rotting away and polluting the place. If they are not allowed to carry gadgets in there, they have that much higher chance of dying. And they need some form of accommodation within the forests, however primitive, because they can't be expected to cross them in one go. Are they expected to source their water from within the forests? Or will they have piped water? Should they survive on whatever they gather from within the forest? Which presumably means hunting is allowed? With primitive weapons, or with guns? Or should they have supplies? Medicines? Television? And so on.

If everybody decides to avoid the forests (or just the virgin forests) altogether, that's even worse. Perfect for naxalites, poachers, and smugglers. And the environmental impacts of that, are going to be altogether uncontrollable. It's not like those folks are going to respect the forest and leave it alone. How is the govt. supposed to police those forests, if nobody is allowed in? Or even if they are allowed in, if they're going to be hamstrung by rules about transportation and gadgets and provisions, while the naxals have a free hand to do whatever they want?

Ji, not disagreeing with you, but the extreme of any principle, is madness.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Suraj »

Mod Note

Please avoid turning the roads thread into the environmentalism thread. Posters who derail this thread WILL earn bans - they have had prior notice.

PS: The explanation 'but environmentalism is important' is irrelevant to this thread. Almost any thread on this forum has other externalities too, e.g. economics and politics. It doesn't give you the license to derail the listed topic.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by nachiket »

sudarshan wrote: But still, on the face of it, it seems Jarita (ma'am?) would have a point. Widening existing roads would be the way to go.
The other issue with widening existing roads is that most of our highways - state and national go directly through every small town, village and city en route. If you have driven on any of these highways through the towns you know very well how the speed gets drastically cut down and the propensity for accidents with pedestrians, carts, two wheelers etc. goes up close to these towns. You can build bypasses and overpasses everywhere but that can be difficult considering land acquisition inside or near the towns. What India needs are greenfield access controlled expressways wherever possible. People have belatedly realized that we need to build these out at least in places where the government can still afford to buy land. This is out of the question already in many places in the South where land acquisition is too expensive. But places like UP, Rajasthan, MP, Bihar, Haryana and even some parts of MH and Andhra etc. still have some hope of getting a first world road infrastructure to enable and support future development and growth.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

Sudarshanji, you have misunderstood me. I am actually aligned with you on several counts. Your points have to addressed because people must understand the gravity of the situation.
Until the population falls, there's not much we can do here. For example - the US has about 36% forest cover. India has 4 times the population of the US.
Correct we cannot be equal to the US on per capita trees. The reason I bought up this number is because people repeatedly use USA as a comparison for roads and infrastructure development in India. The per capita land argument holds on both counts. That said, density of population being a proxy, please pick a comparison from this chart. Japan being closer to India is at 146 trees per capita. But your metric of percentage forest cover is also valid. We are abysmal is that too.
Again, what are the implications? Do we want people to interact with those forests or not? If the general public doesn't get to interact with forests, they lose respect for them, start fearing them. A few generations down the road, when we are all dead and gone, a govt. can easily make a case to our descendants, now terrified of forests, that we don't need them at all!
Of course we should be interacting with the virgin forests else how will we study them. They are a wealth of biodiversity, prehistory and knowledge. We need eco tourism in the forests because that could be a lucrative source of revenue. However we don't need massive transportation roads cutting through the forests. The are unfortunately several planned for trucks. The moment we do that, we compartmentalize those forests - and extinction and permanent destruction becomes a reality. Last mile connectivity in these regions have to be through smaller trails and waterways as well. I recall visiting a monster reserve outside India and the rangers and us went through a boat for 6 hours for last mile access. We don't need multi lane highways dissecting these kind of forests.

I am in agreement on most of your points.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by sudarshan »

Jarita wrote:Sudarshanji, you have misunderstood me. I am actually aligned with you on several counts. Your points have to addressed because people must understand the gravity of the situation.

....

I am in agreement on most of your points.
Best to continue in the Nature Conservation thread, will respond there.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by vsunder »

340 km long access controlled Purvanchal Expressway with 6 lanes a flagship project of UP CM Yogi Adityanath is due to be inaugurated by Aug 31st. It will provide connectivity with very underdeveloped eastern UP, Ghazipur etc to the state capital Lucknow and through the Lucknow-Agra expressway and Yamuna expressway to Delhi NCR. Bihar govt is building a spur to connect to this expressway and so even Bihar will benefit with rapid connectivity to Delhi and Agra. IAF fighters can use this expressway to land near Sultanpur.

The other projects of YA is the Bundelkhand expressway which is 4 lane 184 miles and also access controlled with the facility to expand to 6 lanes. It connects to another economically depressed part of UP Chitrakoot dham a pilgrimage spot, Mahoba and other places via Jhansi to Etawah where it connects to the Agra-Lucknow expressway. 693 structures out of 820 are complete and 90% of the earthwork is complete. Bridges over Betwa, Yamuna and Sengar are under construction.

There will be a Defence manufacturing corridor along the Bundelkhand expressway with 6 nodes some of them not exactly on the expressway but very near to it. Kanpur node is close to both Etawah and Jhansi and historically has had numerous defence establishments. Defence Research Labs(Metallurgy and Materials) was set up in the 1940s, saddlery and leather goods since the late 1890s, HAL Kanpur division the successor to No. 1 BRD(Base Repair Depot) that YB Chavan then Def Min moved to Nagpur after panga with AVM Harjinder Singh etc.. The nodes of the Defence Corridor are at Kanpur(about 80km from the expressway), Aligarh(not on the expressway but close to it), Lucknow(not on the expressway, but has Regimental HQ of Gorkha Rifles), Jhansi, Chitrakoot and Agra. Jhansi and nearby Babina(with its Armored Corps establishment) have plenty of Defence establishments as is Talbehat near Babina and Bhopal with its Strike Corps/Sudarshan Corps HQ opposite Raja Bhoj international airport, Bhopal is also within 250km of Jhansi. However Aligarh is emerging as the preferred node for manufacturers to set up plants due to its proximity to Delhi. A number of companies have already started setting up their plants at Aligarh making use of the fast track scheme for utilities connection and the land that the UP Govt. has made readily available. They range from drone makers, grenade makers to fabricators of optical equipment for the forces. Here is a partial list:


Allen & Alvan Pvt Ltd - Drones

Nitya Creations India – Precision Components

PBM Insulations Pvt Ltd - Insulated Mats

M/s Jai Sai Anu Overseas Pvt Ltd – Precision Components

Deep Explo Equipment Pvt Ltd – Metallic parts for grenades and explosives

Kobra Industries - Defence packaging

Shridha Udyog - Parts for aerospace sector

M/s Precision Products – Precision componnets

Werywin Defence Pvt Ltd - Small arms

Advance Fire and Safety – Fire Safety Equipment

Navraj Metal Works – Tungsten Rods

Ancor Research Labs LLP – Drones

P2 Logitech Pvt Ltd –Optical Sights

New Space Research & Technologies Pvt Ltd – UAVs

Crimson Energy Experts Pvt Ltd – Navigational Devices

Tractrix Opto Dynamics LLP – Precision and Optical Instruments

Syndicate Innovations International Ltd – Small arms ammunition

Royal Sales Pvt Ltd – Precision components

Milkor Defence Pvt Ltd – Defence Weapon Manufacturing
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Suraj »

Delhi-Mumbai Expressway Update Video
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by VinodTK »

Women may lead BRO projects along border
The development came 18 months after the Supreme Court ruled that women officers, who joined the Indian Army through short service commission (SSC), were entitled to permanent commission and command roles.

The Border Roads Organisation (BRO) plans to create four women-led road construction companies (RCC) to handle projects in forward areas along the India-China border, officials familiar with the development said on Sunday. Two women-led RCCs each will come up in the western and the north-eastern sectors, the defence ministry said in a statement.

The announcement comes weeks after BRO appointed a woman officer, Major Aaina Rana, as the commanding officer of the 75 RCC at Pipalkoti in Uttarakhand’s Chamoli. She will be responsible for providing forward connectivity along the India-China border. Rana’s RCC is the BRO’s first women-led RCC as all three platoon commanders under her are women engineers.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by vsunder »

Breakthrough of main tunnel of Zmorh tunnel between Srinagar and Kargil happened 12 hours ago. Escape tunnel breakthrough occurred in June.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Vips »

Wow. Fantastic pace of work at Z-Morh. The breakthrough of the main tunnel was supposed to happen in December this year.
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Post by vsunder »

Progress on the 14.4 km Zoji La tunnel

https://twitter.com/cbdhage/status/1440 ... 54/photo/4

Project deadline is 2026. This along with Z-Morh will provide all year connectivity from Srinagar to Kargil and on to Leh.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Vips »

NHIDCL is confident that breakthrough of the Zojila tunnel will be done by 2024 with limited movement allowed for defence vehicles.

Work is being done simultaneously form 4 different points. It will be done non-stop during winter too. Progress is 5 meters of tunneling per day at both the east and west portal. 2 blasts are carried out each day with each blast (New Austrian Tunneling Method) clearing 2 to 3 meters.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by nachiket »

Vips wrote:NHIDCL is confident that breakthrough of the Zojila tunnel will be done by 2024 with limited movement allowed for defence vehicles.

Work is being done simultaneously form 4 different points. It will be done non-stop during winter too. Progress is 5 meters of tunneling per day at both the east and west portal. 2 blasts are carried out each day with each blast (New Austrian Tunneling Method) clearing 2 to 3 meters.
This is good news. I was a bit concerned when the project was awarded to the relatively less known MEIL after the re-tendering rather than some of the more well known names in construction in India. But seems like they know what they're doing. Both this and the Z-Morh tunnel would have been ready by now if it hadn't been for ILFS going bust.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by vsunder »

No reporter has picked up Z-Morh breakthrough story. Sab rona -dhona kar rahe hain Chunniganj chauraha par.

Yash Pal Thakur on Linkedin of J Kumar infra has posted these pics

https://twitter.com/Sahilinfra2/status/ ... 9530151936


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2FPpadUoGU

See 0:17 below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL3bZzYRZz0
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by viveks »

Are there any mineral deposits in these mountain ranges? So much tunneling going on. There are bound to be some minerals that can be mined?
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by vsunder »

The Himalayan ecosystem is very fragile and large scale mining will definitely impact the river systems that flow for the most part into India. Mining companies are very callous and notorious and treat waste poorly. The addition of cyanide in some extraction processes like in Gold extraction if not done carefully will kill animal and aquatic life. Gold deposits have been confirmed in the alluvial regions in Nepal.

There are indeed several minerals in the Himalayas and esp. Nepal and Arunachal Pradesh. In the Zanskar/Leh area and in Kashmir high quality sapphire and aquamarine is found, of a degree better than found in Sri Lanka. Niobium, Tantalum and also Berrylium(can be used in nuclear reactors to impede neutrons), Tin, Lithium etc have been found in the Himalayas. Oil bearing shale exists in Arunachal Pradesh and its offshoot the Digboi oil wells of Assam. Tantalum and Niobium are esp. critical in the manufacture of blades for wind turbines and will be an important family of rare earths for the future.

In addition several geothermal sources of energy exist. The hot water pool at Badrinath temple in which pilgrims take a bath before entering the temple is one such. The Himalayas have three types of rocks, mostly sedimentary from the ancient seas, ancient ammonite fossils from these seas can be found at the top of Everest, and adorn the altars of many an Indian home, the so called Shaligram stones are the ammonite fossils and the spiral pattern of the fossil ammonites said to resemble the discus and conch of Vishnu. The process of weathering of the rock is astonishing. The top of Nanga Parbat was once 25 miles below the ancient sea. Weathering for example and washing away by the Ganga has spread sediment from the Himalayas out to 1700 miles from the mouth of the Ganga deep into the Indian Ocean with layers that are a couple of miles thick.

The Chinese have published numerous geological surveys of Tibet and regions adjoining Arunachal Pradesh and have a very good idea of the geology. Part of acquiring Arunachal is to exploit the mineral wealth in particular shale oil and coal. Waste will run off(from coal washeries, slag etc) and be a headache to lower Assam if it ever materializes.
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by bharathp »


presstitute asking for toll free road access
NG denying him in style
also talking about next gen toll collection tech
RKumar

Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by RKumar »

^ loved the directness ... anyone using a resource should pay the amount without any exception.
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Post by Cyrano »

Gadkari is amazing !
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Jarita »

vsunder wrote:The Himalayan ecosystem is very fragile and large scale mining will definitely impact the river systems that flow for the most part into India. Mining companies are very callous and notorious and treat waste poorly. The addition of cyanide in some extraction processes like in Gold extraction if not done carefully will kill animal and aquatic life. Gold deposits have been confirmed in the alluvial regions in Nepal.

There are indeed several minerals in the Himalayas and esp. Nepal and Arunachal Pradesh. In the Zanskar/Leh area and in Kashmir high quality sapphire and aquamarine is found, of a degree better than found in Sri Lanka. Niobium, Tantalum and also Berrylium(can be used in nuclear reactors to impede neutrons), Tin, Lithium etc have been found in the Himalayas. Oil bearing shale exists in Arunachal Pradesh and its offshoot the Digboi oil wells of Assam. Tantalum and Niobium are esp. critical in the manufacture of blades for wind turbines and will be an important family of rare earths for the future.

In addition several geothermal sources of energy exist. The hot water pool at Badrinath temple in which pilgrims take a bath before entering the temple is one such. The Himalayas have three types of rocks, mostly sedimentary from the ancient seas, ancient ammonite fossils from these seas can be found at the top of Everest, and adorn the altars of many an Indian home, the so called Shaligram stones are the ammonite fossils and the spiral pattern of the fossil ammonites said to resemble the discus and conch of Vishnu. The process of weathering of the rock is astonishing. The top of Nanga Parbat was once 25 miles below the ancient sea. Weathering for example and washing away by the Ganga has spread sediment from the Himalayas out to 1700 miles from the mouth of the Ganga deep into the Indian Ocean with layers that are a couple of miles thick.

The Chinese have published numerous geological surveys of Tibet and regions adjoining Arunachal Pradesh and have a very good idea of the geology. Part of acquiring Arunachal is to exploit the mineral wealth in particular shale oil and coal. Waste will run off(from coal washeries, slag etc) and be a headache to lower Assam if it ever materializes.

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