Indian Police Reform

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ramana
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Indian Police Reform

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2006 03:27

Some Police links...
[*]National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB)
[*]Bureau for Police Research and Development
[*]Common Integrated Police Application

----------------------------
Time to start a new thread.
Telegraph, 14 Feb., 2006
Link: Forcing a Change

FORCING A CHANGE
The suggestions of the new committee on police reform will remain a dead letter unless the states implement them, writes Tarunabh Khaitan


In the name of the law
Policing in India is still organized largely on the basis of a 145-year old colonial legislation. The Police Act was passed in 1861, with the memory of the revolt of 1857 still fresh in British minds. The most defining feature of this legislation is the absolute control of the political authority it establishes over the police. Section 3 of the act declares that superintendence of the police throughout a general police-district shall vest in and be exercised by the state government. The executive magistrate is vested with the power to provide general control and direction to the local police. This was but expected, given the political need to use the police force for the maintenance of the raj. In particular, this ensured that the police response to the rising national movement for independence was dictated by political objectives, and not merely by the need to maintain law and order.

Almost everything ? from the goals of policing to the nature of the state ? has changed in the intervening century-and-a-half. Democracy demands fidelity of the police to the law and the civil liberties enshrined in the Constitution, not to the whims of politicians. Reorganizing the colonial police structure to make it responsive to the needs of a democratic country should have been one of the first tasks of the Constitution-makers and any government of independent India. That did not happen. It was probably because of their misplaced optimism about the political leadership of independent India, that the Constitution-makers imported the entire administrative and police bureaucracy of the raj into democratic India, lock, stock and barrel. Not only that, they also put policing as a subject exclusively in the domain of the state government, with the Centre having no say whatsoever in its operation. This disempowerment of the Central government would later become an excuse for inaction.

To be fair, many state governments, including Kerala, West Bengal, Punjab, Assam, Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu, did set up police commissions to review the functioning of the police. Most of these were set up in the first two decades after independence, though none of them came up with far-reaching suggestions for structural reforms. Even the recommendations hardly got implemented. The first serious attempt to make structural changes was made by the National Police Commission, set up by the Janata government after the Emergency. This commission did make recommendations which could have gone a long way to transform the face of Indian police. However, before they could be implemented, Indira Gandhi was back in power and used the excuse of the Centre having no power to legislate on matters relating to policing to kill the initiative.

It took another quarter of a century for the government to wake up to the need for reforms which were long overdue. The United Progressive Alliance government set up yet another committee ? which includes the former attorney-general, Soli Sorabjee, members of the academia and representatives of the police organization ? in September 2005 to draft a new legislation. The committee has been granted a time frame of six months to come up with a draft act.

While this initiative is welcome, it will face the same constitutional hurdle that the first commission had to grapple with. The parliament has no power to pass a new police act, unless of course it amends the Constitution itself. In all probability, the committee will come up with a model police act and urge the state legislative assemblies to adopt it individually. How many states? political leadership will be willing to give up the enormous powers it enjoys because of its nexus with the police administration is anybody?s guess.

Assuming there is political will, what shape should a reformed police organization take? The prime minister, Manmohan Singh, has said time and again that security of tenure for senior police officers is a sine qua non for professional independence of the police organization. But more needs to be done to make the organization free of political control and management. The appointment process of senior police officers, including the director general, commissioners and superintendents of police, needs to be made bipartisan. The leader of opposition in the state legislative assembly must have a consultative role in these appointments to make the process impartial. Any removal, suspension or other punitive action against a police officer should be taken only on specific grounds mentioned in the legislation itself, and must be subject to scrutiny by a quasi-judicial body. All transfers and promotions of senior officers must be made with their consent. These and other similar measures may go a long way to ensure that the symbiotic relationship between the police and the politician is divorced.

While organizational independence is necessary for a professional police force, policing in any democracy must also be responsible. This is possible by strengthening the rights of suspects and complainants who have to deal with the police, and making policing more transparent. Accredited human rights NGOs could be given the right to visit and interview detainees in any police station. A state and national level police complaints authority is long overdue. Its membership may include members of the state and national human rights commissions, representatives of human rights NGOs, journalists, lawyers and police officers. Police officers have to be made individually responsible for every illegal arrest, detention, use of torture, illegal deaths and failure to discharge his or her duty. Criminal prosecution must be the norm, not an aberration. Presently, the consent of the state government is required to prosecute a police officer. This must be done away with.

The role played by the Gujarat police during the pogrom of 2002 also brings to attention the social relations of the police force. Special emphasis must be given to adequate representation of vulnerable sections like the religious minorities, Dalits, tribals and women to ensure diversity in the police force. This should be a general policy instead of recruiting these officers for special cells alone. For example, women police officers should be allowed to deal with all cases and not just cases involving women. The details of caste, community and gender-wise break-up of the police force, along with the positions held by them in the police hierarchy, should be made public. An express provision should prohibit the police force generally, and individual officers specifically, from discriminating on any of the grounds mentioned in Article 15 of the Constitution. Complaints of such discrimination may be made to the police complaints authority, which may award compensation or make other remedial orders.

The citizens of India have waited too long for a humane police force which respects rather than violates rights. It is likely that the report of the committee set up by the Central home ministry will become another document of good intentions, unless some states take up leadership roles on the issue. Will ?progressive? Bengal show the way?

Last edited by ramana on 19 Feb 2008 23:07, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Philbert » 14 Feb 2006 03:40

Do the police departments in the country have any ethics commitees.
I think that the cops in India need a little attitude adjustments i mean if India is to develop to be a great nation i think that the people have to stop thinking as if we are still in the 1950's

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Postby VickersB » 15 Feb 2006 00:16

Some info on the Chandigarh Traffic Police and Chandigarh Police

http://www.chandigarhtrafficpolice.org/index.php

http://chandigarhpolice.nic.in/

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Rahul Mehta » 15 Feb 2006 12:51

Home/Police dept work on the LAWS as passed by Parliament/Assembly.

To get sustaining change in their behaviour, an act in Assembly/Parliament is a prq-requiste. And for an act to get passed, DRAFT of the act is a pre-requiste. If one wants his MLA/MP to pass a "law", the FIRST thing one needs to do is to give hima WRITTEN draft of the act he wants to be passed. WhatTH can an MLA/MP do without a draft in Assembly/Parliament?

Does the author, Khaitan, have any draft he supports? Has he given that draft to MLAs/MPs so that they pass it? Has he even placed it anywhere on internet for us to look at, and comment upon? I guess not. So Khaitan's demand to "change police" is just a waste.

Making a demand before a neta on any issue, without written draft of the act, is asking a cook "give me GOOD tasty nourishing food ... the food should be hot, but not very hot ... it should be sweet, but also consider the fact that I am diabetic ... ". All these declarative demands describing the food are worthless before a cook. To cook, you need to CLEARLY spell what items you want etc. Same way, a neta job is to present the draft, as approved by the citizens, in the Assembly. If you have NOT given MLA/MP any draft, cursing him not enacting a law is baseless.

Now I would certainly like to discuss the DRAFTS of Acts which can bring changes in pandudom. But I am hesitant as, as discussion on LEGAL issues is banned on BR. I got banned by bhai=admin some two years for raising legal issues (that was 2 years ago, and was banned onlee for 2-7 days, and it was no big deal).

IMO, it is impossible to discuss this thread without EXPLICIT amendment in forum-guildelines. You are a bhai=admin, and decide.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Hemant » 16 Feb 2006 00:01

Rahul Mehta wrote:Home/Police dept work on the LAWS as passed by Parliament/Assembly.

the FIRST thing one needs to do is to give hima WRITTEN draft of the act he wants to be passed. WhatTH can an MLA/MP do without a draft in Assembly/Parliament?



basic education (12th) should be a requirement to be elected to legislature. AND, a 3 month basic law course (in the local language or english) should be attended and _passed_ by the lawmakers who have no legal experience.

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Hemant » 16 Feb 2006 00:12

ramana wrote:Time to start a new thread.
Telegraph, 14 Feb., 2006
Link: Forcing a Change


While organizational independence is necessary for a professional police force, policing in any democracy must also be responsible.


IMHO, more than the police, it is the public prosecutors who need independence. The prosecutors in India are essentially under the control of the ruling party. That is why you will never see corruption cases against a ruling party minister/MLA whatever.

And of course, the other part which needs fixing is the judges. The number of cases is far too many etc. this is all well known.

Civil cases can run upto 100 years. Criminal cases rarely if ever result in guilty verdict to a powerful person. Poor people can stay years as undertrials in jails, after which even if they are exonerated, they are ruined for life.

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Rahul Mehta » 16 Feb 2006 09:31

Ramana:

I wanted to start this thread, but had no b1lls. Thanks for starting ths thread.

But AFAIS, no meanigful discussion on topic of "improving police" is possible under the existing forum guidelines, which prohibit discussion on laws, and corruption, nepotism etc prevelent in Indian babudom, courts and pandudom. Asking ppl to discuss/propose changes in police, and saying "dont talk corruption, dont talk about laws" is asking a young person to go to co-ed collage and asking him not to have lafada. If is suffocating.

Pls clarify how/what should we discuss in this thread. Or shall I say "IB4TL"?

(Also, pls note that if you allow thread on "improving pandudom", one may start thread on "improving netadom", "improving courts", "improving PPdom" and so forth. If you allow, thread on pandudom, it may become difficult to snip other threads. If you allow all such threads, BR will become BR of 2002 AD, the BR I first saw and the BR I still pray for. )


Hemant wrote: basic education (12th) should be a requirement to be elected to legislature. AND, a 3 month basic law course (in the local language or english) should be attended and _passed_ by the lawmakers who have no legal experience.


Over 75% (guess) MPs are graduate. Many are LLBs. And even an illterate person in India (or anywhere in world) knows basic laws like IPC etc. Educated MPs are as corrupt as illterate. So education etc will NOT improve their law-making abilities.

Also, MPs' job is to

1)present draft to Speaker
2)say YES/NO when Speaker schedules voting on that draft

MP is supposed to do (1) and (2) as per the wish/will of citizens. It is citizens' job to prepare the draft and submit it to MP. As long as citizens have NOT given any draft, MPs is not even required to move a muscle.

About prosecutor's independece :

Making PP (public prosecutors) independent from neta is NOT a bad idea. But how do you make them "dependent" on us commons? If PP is independent of neta, and independent of us commons as well, it will NOT be of any help to us commons. eg judges in India are independent of neta, and also independent of us commons. Are judges any good for us commons? Hell NO. In US, most PPs are DIRECTLY elected by commons, and commons have ways, direct or indirect, to expel the PP. IMO, we should BLINDLY copy these procedures in India and have elected/expellable PPs

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Hemant » 16 Feb 2006 23:51

Over 75% (guess) MPs are graduate. Many are LLBs. And even an illterate person in India (or anywhere in world) knows basic laws like IPC etc. Educated MPs are as corrupt as illterate. So education etc will NOT improve their law-making abilities.


education is not a sufficient condition for honesty. However an MP/MLA should be able to read and understand the implications of a bill.

Also, MPs' job is to

1)present draft to Speaker
2)say YES/NO when Speaker schedules voting on that draft

MP is supposed to do (1) and (2) as per the wish/will of citizens. It is citizens' job to prepare the draft and submit it to MP. As long as citizens have NOT given any draft, MPs is not even required to move a muscle.


this brings us to the crux of the problem.

IMHO most of the grave problems in Indian politics arise because the citizens are apathetic. Why did this happen? because historically, Indians kings and nawaabs were nothing but glorified robbers. So people tried to stay out of the way of politics. That attitude remains even today.

People will not even ask to get municipal lights fixed in India. Let alone writing drafts of laws in public interest.

About prosecutor's independece :

Making PP (public prosecutors) independent from neta is NOT a bad idea. But how do you make them "dependent" on us commons? If PP is independent of neta, and independent of us commons as well, it will NOT be of any help to us commons. eg judges in India are independent of neta, and also independent of us commons. Are judges any good for us commons? Hell NO. In US, most PPs are DIRECTLY elected by commons, and commons have ways, direct or indirect, to expel the PP. IMO, we should BLINDLY copy these procedures in India and have elected/expellable PPs


It would be good to remember how the present system came to be. The system is virtually unchanged sinc the British days. The British, obviously kept the power to themselves. When the Indians replaced them, they obviously liked the system wherein they had almost complete discretionary power, because they could use it to their benefit. That the Indians who replaced the British in the power structure, were actually Anglicised babus (Nehru, Gandhi etc), did not help either.

In conclusion, the present system was not built with democracy in mind. It is time it serves the "will of the people" and not the people in power.

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Rahul Mehta » 17 Feb 2006 09:51

Rahul Mehta : ... Educated MPs are as corrupt as illterate. So education etc will NOT improve their law-making abilities.

Hemant Sharma : education is not a sufficient condition for honesty. However an MP/MLA should be able to read and understand the implications of a bill.


Over 75% MLAs/MPs are very much capable of understanding effects laws might have on us commons. They dont give a damn, as we commons have no ways and means to imprison them, or even expel them before term ends. A detailed discussion is off the thread's topic, and pls not discuss further. We would need a thread like "Improving law-making" etc, but these kinda topics are banned on BR since 2002 AD.

In the context of "reforming pandudom", we all know that improvements in pandudom will be REQUIRE drafts to be passed in Assembles. Does this require a change in existing law-making procedures? Yes, no may be ... but this discussion is useful only AFTER we have law drafts needed to improve pandudom. Any one got such WRITTEN drafts that MLAs may pass to improve pandudom?


Rahul Mehta : Also, MPs' job is to
1)present draft to Speaker
2)say YES/NO when Speaker schedules voting on that draft

MP is supposed to do (1) and (2) as per the wish/will of citizens. It is citizens' job to prepare the draft and submit it to MP. As long as citizens have NOT given any draft, MPs is not even required to move a muscle.

Hemantbhai: this brings us to the crux of the problem. IMHO most of the grave problems in Indian politics arise because the citizens are apathetic. Why did this happen? because historically, Indians kings and nawaabs were nothing but glorified robbers. So people tried to stay out of the way of politics. That attitude remains even today.


"Why ppl are ignorant" debate is off the thread. IMO, in this thread we shud focus on the 1)problems in pandudom such as bribery, nepotism, atrocity etc
2)drafts of laws which may reduce those problems

It would be good to remember how the present system came to be. The system is virtually unchanged sinc the British days. ...


We have a bad system not becuz brits created a bad system, but a large number of EXISTING elitemen, professors(*)=intellectuals, Nbjpr etc WANT this bad systems to go on. And professors=intellectuals have brain washed the stidents to such an extent, that concerned citizens are hopelessly misguided. Lets not blame brits for this.

(*) - by professors, I mean professors of NON-TECHNICAL subjects like history, litrature, polsci, economics, humanities, arts etc. NOT the teachers of technical subjects like Maths, Sci, Engineering etc

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Indian Police - 2006

Postby Hemant » 20 Feb 2006 22:20

In the context of "reforming pandudom", we all know that improvements in pandudom will be REQUIRE drafts to be passed in Assembles. Does this require a change in existing law-making procedures? Yes, no may be ... but this discussion is useful only AFTER we have law drafts needed to improve pandudom. Any one got such WRITTEN drafts that MLAs may pass to improve pandudom?


you have had such a draft for atleast 5 years. i had warned you long ago that the problem of coding the law is just the beginning. the powerful (media especially), will not let your ideas gain currency. instead they will (as they always have), drown out the good ideas with emotional nonsense.

as i see, the problem is of getting the law passed. a power structure will never pass a law which cuts its interests.

creating a good product is part of the problem. marketing it is the other problem. graveyards are full of good ideas which were not marketed properly.

so when will they pass such a law? just like the king passed the magna carta when he had no option - the people had demanded it. he could either pass it or he would risk his life.

if your law has not been passed, it is because people are not aware/interested in it. to get them interested, first they have to be aware of it. for that you have have friends in the powerful media. afaik Times of India used to print news items for payment (eg, a great saree shop xyz was opened today) . we could try that approach.

"Why ppl are ignorant" debate is off the thread. IMO, in this thread we shud focus on the 1)problems in pandudom such as bribery, nepotism, atrocity etc
2)drafts of laws which may reduce those problems


1) is very clear. every politician campaigns on reducing corruption. it is the couch potato's obsession.
2) you have the draft.

"why people are ignorant" is not relevant. but that ignorance does affect us. in particular, especially, apathy to our political situation.

if i sometimes give a little background, it is just to fortify my conclusions. i have found that if i just present my "insights", it is usually not well received.

We have a bad system not becuz brits created a bad system, but a large number of EXISTING elitemen, professors(*)=intellectuals, Nbjpr etc WANT this bad systems to go on. And professors=intellectuals have brain washed the stidents to such an extent, that concerned citizens are hopelessly misguided. Lets not blame brits for this.


yes, i agree with that. in fact maybe you are giving them too much credit, that they understand the problem and deliberately choose a corrupt system. IMO most indians, including educated ones, are just not intelligent enough. intellectuals in india are just writing emotional articles in newspapers.

the system corrupts the young by showing them pictures of naked women, and dreams of america. the intelligent are corrupted by throwing emotionally charged issues at them. emotion clouds reason.

slowly, we have to reduce the amount of emotional material in the media, and increase rational ideas.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 21 Feb 2006 17:53

Rahul Mehta: In the context of "reforming pandudom", we all know that improvements in pandudom will be REQUIRE drafts to be passed in Assembles.... Any one got such WRITTEN drafts that MLAs may pass to improve pandudom?

Hemant : you have had such a draft for atleast 5 years. i had warned you long ago that the problem of coding the law is just the beginning.

Brits say : Well begin is 0.5 done.
And chaptas say : A 1k mile long jouney begins with 1 small step

My point is :
1)Suppose X says "we should reform pandudom"
2)Suppose Y says "we should reform pandudom"

Then also, X and Y may be talking something COMPLETELY different. Why? becuase both want change .. but they they want changes in OPPOSITE direction.

eg when I say we should "change" pandudom, I mean we should have elected/recallable pandu commissioner, expulsion by Jurors etc. Whereas, someone else may be interested just opposite ... i.e. more and more immunity to pandus from commons etc.

Therefore to avoid confusion about WHAT specific changes one wants, WRITTEN DRAFT is a pre-requiste.

as i see, the problem is of getting the law passed. a power structure will never pass a law which cuts its interests.


If a law is in the interest of us commons, and against the interest of "power structure" (Nbjprie in my lingo), whyTF would Nbjprie let it pass? It for activists who agree with the law tp take initiative, and convince commons to FORCE MPs to pass that law.

so when will they pass such a law? just like the king passed the magna carta when he had no option - the people had demanded it. he could either pass it or he would risk his life.


exactly ... king passed Magna Carta when British commons in about 1200 AD threatened him of murder. Likewise, two CMs in Gujarat, Chimanbhai Patel in 1974 and Madhav Singh in 1985 resiged when commons threatened him of murder. At the end of the day, if commons want any change, they will HAVE to threaten Nbjprie of murder, or else Nbjprie will not pass it. That is applicable for ALL good changes.

if your law has not been passed, it is because people are not aware/interested in it. ...


Hemant, lets not talk about MY proposals in this thread right now. There are anti-RM elements on BR who will immidiately accuse me/you of thread hijack. I am scared of their "thread khatarein mein" shrills.

Lets confine part-1 of this thread to : WHAT laws (drafts) can improve

In next thread, we may be able to discuss HOW any of these laws can be passed.

(Btw, Hemant, it looks, no other BRites is very interesting in posting. Lets wait for a while for someone else to post his views/drafts as well.)

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Rishirishi » 21 Feb 2006 23:32

The MP's are a very capable lot. Educated or uneducated. Even people like Lalu and Mulayam are exeptinally capable people.

The problem with the Indian political system is that winning an election costs a lot of money and political manupilation. You have to keep all the sections of the society (hindu, Muslim, SC, ST, etc) happy. Often at the cost of each ohter.

So the way it works is that MP's "cash in" money for the parties from corruption (but also keep some for them selfs).
If you do not accept this game, you are out.

Reforming the police and courts, would be a great start. The Police should be made compleety independant of Politicians. There should be created a separate Police authority, which hires, fires and transfer people arround the entire country. Totally out of control from politicians.

Secondly a seperate police department should be created, whom investigate and control the police department itself.

Further a separate departments should be made, which takes down the FIR's and keep a tap on the law and order situation. When an FIR is logged, it should be this departments job to see that appropriate action is taken.

This way, you will have seperate entity monitoring the law and order situation, a seperat entity that investigates and try to prevent crime, and finally an seperate entity that

My bag got stolen, and I tried to report it to the police. But they just did not wan't to accept the complaint. After asking a relative of mine, I found out that the Inspectors do not wan't to register complaints, because it spoils the statistical records. :twisted:

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Postby neel » 21 Feb 2006 23:59

The police who investigate other police are called the Interal Affairs Bureau (IAB).

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Postby Hemant » 26 Feb 2006 06:20

At the end of the day, if commons want any change, they will HAVE to threaten Nbjprie of murder, or else Nbjprie will not pass it. That is applicable for ALL good changes.

(Btw, Hemant, it looks, no other BRites is very interesting in posting. Lets wait for a while for someone else to post his views/drafts as well.)

-Rahul Mehta


see? the problem in india is all chiefs no indians. nobody agrees to anything because everyone thinks they are the most intelligent person on the planet. and now the TOI type media has planted it even more into their heads that the world is going crazy because of intelligent and english speaking (!) indians.

we lack understanding of "power" and modern world. on top of it we are being pampered because of speaking english. and, we are an emotionally unstable country.

नीम हकीम खतरा‍-ए-जान

first, people have to agree there is a problem. then, define the problem. then, propose, cordially, solutions to the problem. and then solve it.

we are not even past the first stage here.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 28 Feb 2006 13:06

Rishirishi wrote:The problem with the Indian political system is that winning an election costs a lot of money and political manupilation. ....
So the way it works is that MP's "cash in" money for the parties from corruption (but also keep some for them selfs). If you do not accept this game, you are out.


That is NOT the problem. The problem is that ppl cant PUNISH MPs or even expel them before term ends.

The Police should be made compleety independant of Politicians.

To do so, Assembly would need to pass an Act, right? May I see the draft of that Act you are proposing? Onlee after seeing that draft, I can say if that can improve the pandudom. I dont know how WITHOUT even looking that Act's draft you are so sure that "Make Pandus Autonomus Act" would reduce corruption/nepotism in pandus?

Also, judges are independent of netas and are autonomous. They why is corruption/nepotism in judiciary, incl Supreme Court, so high? The fact that corruption/nepotism is so high in judges incl HCjs/SCjs proves that autonomy is WORTHLESS concept for us commons. But I will give detailed views AFTER I see yr draft.

... a separate departments should be made, which takes down the FIR's and keep a tap on the law and order situation. When an FIR is logged, it should be this departments job to see that appropriate action is taken.


Your proposed remedy already exists, and it has failed.

As of today, if pandu refuses to take an FIR, a person can walk to a judge ("seperate dept") and file complaint before him. The judge can order the pandus to take action, and ask them to submit report on action taken periodically. The judge also has power to expel the pandus if he thinks that action is is not taken. There is already a dept called anti-corruption buero which is supposed to set traps to arrest corrupt pandus. The result is zero.

Rahul Mehta: At the end of the day, if commons want any change, they will HAVE to threaten Nbjprie of murder, or else Nbjprie will not pass it. That is applicable for ALL good changes. (Btw, Hemant, it looks, no other BRites is very interesting in posting. Lets wait for a while for someone else to post his views/drafts as well.)

Hemant Sharma: see? the problem in india is all chiefs no indians. nobody agrees to anything because everyone thinks they are the most intelligent person on the planet. and now the TOI type media has planted it even more into their heads that the world is going crazy because of intelligent and english speaking (!) indians. we lack understanding of "power" and modern world. on top of it we are being pampered because of speaking english. and, we are an emotionally unstable country. first, people have to agree there is a problem. then, define the problem. then, propose, cordially, solutions to the problem. and then solve it. we are not even past the first stage here.


How can I possibly agree to a "solution", unless solution's draft is first posted?

As per my proposed solution to bribery/nepotism in pandudom, I have posted the drafts on

http://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.pol.htm

Now before anyone itches to comment against proposals, I request him to

1)confine himself to compare with EXISTING pandudom
2)or confine to compare it any other DRAFT which has been published.

I dont wanna compare my proposals with proposals which no one found time to draft as of today.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Hemant » 04 Mar 2006 20:53

Rahul Mehta wrote:How can I possibly agree to a "solution", unless solution's draft is first posted?

As per my proposed solution to bribery/nepotism in pandudom, I have posted the drafts on

http://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.pol.htm

-Rahul Mehta


i would love to provide parallel drafts. however, i hardly understand general law, and definitely don't understand indian law. and at this stage i don't have the time for them either. just maintaing the skills for an IT job and dealing with its politics has become a full time headache.

to fix a problem, one has to understand the problem and the tools available to solve it.

i think that is your difficulty. you are far ahead of the rest of us. the stuff you are taking is hardly understood by non-lawyers.

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Postby Rishirishi » 04 Mar 2006 21:18

As of today, if pandu refuses to take an FIR, a person can walk to a judge ("seperate dept") and file complaint before him. The judge can order the pandus to take action, and ask them to submit report on action taken periodically. The judge also has power to expel the pandus if he thinks that action is is not taken. There is already a dept called anti-corruption buero which is supposed to set traps to arrest corrupt pandus. The result is zero.



The result is zero, because that is what they wan't.

I lost my bag. Am I supposed to approch a judge????? What is Pandu??

If Pandu is a kind of a place where you are supposed to report crime, then they should advertise it, make the offices accecable and easy to find.
I lost my bag, but not my head. I am not stupid to start to research into the Indian police system. If Pandu has some brains, they could have handed our visiting cards to the Railway sequrity, they could have put up some advertisments or even opned up a small booth.

You get the picture. When someone in India gets a government job, he thinks he has got a lifetime guarented income, regardless of preformance.

If they can't make this work, then no system will work. It is not the system there is something wrong with, it is the way the government handles its employees. Start to fire people whom underpreform.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Mar 2006 10:18

Rahul Mehta :
How can I possibly agree to a "solution", unless solution's draft is first posted? As per my proposed solution to bribery/nepotism in pandudom, I have posted the drafts on

http://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.pol.htm

Hemantbhai: i would love to provide parallel drafts. however, i hardly understand general law, and definitely don't understand indian law. and at this stage i don't have the time for them either. just maintaing the skills for an IT job and dealing with its politics has become a full time headache.


1. Law is EASIER than 8th standard maths. It is 10 times simple than software code you write everyday. All this hooplaa that law is tough, commons cant understand it etc is created by intellectuals who who want to keeo commons unaware about law.

2. In law, there are two parts : techinical issues, strategic (game theory type) and legal issues. eg you are reading law on software copyrights. Then you need to understand what software is. Same way, if you are reading laws on construction, you need to know ABC of construction. Now, trust me, we engineers and ordinary unskilled labor know more about technical issues than judges. (Most judges are BA (sociology) , and you know what caliber of a typical BA (soc)when it comes to understand technical issues.) Second issue you need to focus is given a law, many ppl may try to break it (game theory type issues). Again, you know that enginners and unskilled labors are better than BA(soc) in understanding game-theory type issues.

3. Over 99% cases in India, techinical issue is TRIVIAL. They deal with threatening, brawls, beatings, other plain vanilla violent crimes, simple finanicial frauds etc. Even an illiterate knows issues mattering the case.
to fix a problem, one has to understand the problem and the tools available to solve it.

4. So just start reading the law. Mind you, many times, lawyers/judges and law-makers DELIBERATELY use clumsy difficult words,. They also have habit of use long long sentences having tons of commas, semicolons etc. This is ONLY to create confusion and make us commons feel inferiors. So dont pay attention to their heavy words, usless concepts and long sentences. Replace the the words by simpler words. Break the long sentences into 2-more sentences. After that you will see that law is trivialer than 8th std maths.

5. Many times while reading laws, you will need to read cases and their judgements. The judgements judges, perticularly India's HCjs/SCjs write are like poems --- full of glossy words, hollow in contents. Pls keep in mind that so called landmark judgements from HCjs/SCjs, which are dime a dozen, are nothing but opinions coming from individuals who have managed to climb the ladder NOT by market or elections or techinical merit, but by building "relations" and "nexuses". Take them merely as opinions, and NOT as God's words.

If above five guidelines, you will be able to understand ANY law as long as you know the techinical issues the law deals with. eg do you understand the rental contract you signed? If yes, you can understand over 99% of the laws. Spare the difficult words, they are simpler than yr rental contract.

i think that is your difficulty. you are far ahead of the rest of us. the stuff you are taking is hardly understood by non-lawyers.


I will get "ahead" onlee when concerned citizens in India start READING/WRITING drafts. As of today, they are busy "discussing" issues and NOT interested in DRAFTING anything. Similar to coders who talk about requirements and future maintaince issues, but would refrain from actually typing some code. Unless we write DRAFTS, none of us, incl myself is "ahead". We are all lagging "behind" the west, which has drafted far far better laws.

If you wanna improve pandudom, sorry, you gotta NO choice but to DRAFT laws that can improve pandudom. Can a bank work without WRITTEN documents? No. Can even a tiny company of 10-20 ppl work without WRITTEN documents? No. So there is NO way a nation and its pandudom consisting of lakhs of pandus run without DRAFTS. Now if you say "I dont have time to read/write drafts", then whoTH will write drafts? MPs, MLAs, judges and intellectuals? Do they have time? And look at today's intellectuals (professors of non-techinical subjects), are they better than Prof Dr Dronachayra who supported Justice Duryodhan even when he was molesting Draupadi a common right in the Supreme Court of Hastinapur?

If you wanna see India's pandudom come to the Western level, I request you byte the bullet, and START reading/writing DRAFTS. Otherwise, there is NO hope.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Mar 2006 10:38

Rahul Mehta : As of today, if pandu refuses to take an FIR, a person can walk to a judge ("seperate dept") and file complaint before him. The judge can order the pandus to take action, and ask them to submit report on action taken periodically. The judge also has power to expel the pandus if he thinks that action is is not taken. There is already a dept called anti-corruption buero which is supposed to set traps to arrest corrupt pandus. The result is zero.

Rishirishi : The result is zero, because that is what they wan't.


Whom do you mean by "they"? Nbjpr, or someone else?

I lost my bag. Am I supposed to approch a judge????? What is Pandu??


Here is one reason why India is still in hell hole compared to West : Obsession of concerned citizens on micro-issues, nano-issues and pico-issues, and IGNORE mega-issues.

Mega-issue : SCjs (incl SC-Cj) promote judge Bhayana after he gives seven years to criminal, who is billionaire_cum_neta-putra, to break all witnesses.

pico-issue : I lost my bag.

When it comes to pandudon, I request you to focus on ORGANIZED crimes for the time being. Luggage getting lost is a petty crime, which do NOT wreck the nations. The organized crime, like judge Bhayana getting promotion, is ORGANIZED crime that will wreck the nation.

The pandu did NOT take yr complain becuase babu (Home Secretary) and neta (Home Minister) compile statiistics which gives EQUAL weight to organized crimes like financial frauds and bags getting stolen. And a pandu inspector is WRONGLY rated by number of crimes getting registered in his pandu station. So he does not like to register complains. So blaming the pandu for NOT taking FIR is like cursing a clerk. It is ph1cking neta's (neta like MMk whom you support) who rate officers in mudane ways. And so officers behave in mundane ways.

You get the picture. When someone in India gets a government job, he thinks he has got a lifetime guarented income, regardless of preformance.

What solution do you propose, wrt to pandudom (NOT wrt to other depts of govt). Drafts pls.

The solution I propose is : allow Jurors to expel pandus.

Start to fire people whom underpreform.

In context of pandudom, the ppl who underperform MOST are SCjs/HCjs, PM, HM, District Pandu Chiefs etc. Do you support that citizens should fire them? To do that, you need to first pass a law in Assembly/Parliament that would enable us commons to fire the SCjs/HCjs, other judges, Home Ministers, Pandu Chiefs etc. Do you support such laws?

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Tapasvi » 07 Mar 2006 10:56

Rahul Bhai,

I saw ur drafts on various issues and am impressed with them. but there are lots of unknowns there. for example. when u talk abt the ID system. details of how to implement it is not there. In a nation where from ration card to passports are forged, we need a foolproof system for proper id cards.

coming to police:

Ind haryana, Chautala used to take from 5-7 lakhs for appointment of a constable. and a constable who used to pay such money for the job, used to make sure he recovers that amount in fastest time thru whatever means. similarly, we have frauds in admission procedures of many fields. this crime or forging or leaking papers/results of competitive exams is IMO among the worst crimes possible. as you infect the whole society with bad blood.

I think to make PANDUDOM better we need to:

-make selection process transparent and fair.
-set out transparent appraisal policies, giving more weightage to discipline and effort, than to encounters and flattery. as the latter raises chances of foul play.
-discover(invent) heros within the force, let them become example of no nonsense and no compromise police force.

the solution for all Major problems are always OBVIOUS. but its the OBVIOUS that we people find very hard to do.

It would be great if you can post your drafts here rahul bhai, as then we can discuss better.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Mar 2006 12:10

Tapasvi wrote:Rahul Bhai,

I saw ur drafts on various issues and am impressed with them.


Thanks. I request you to focus on drafts of LM.02 and LM.03, which are the KEY to ALL problems of India that west has solved. The drafts are at

http://www.rahulmehta.com/lm02.htm
http://www.rahulmehta.com/lm03.htm

... when u talk abt the ID system. details of how to implement it is not there. In a nation where from ration card to passports are forged, we need a foolproof system for proper id cards.

I am using ration card an ID system to START with. Onlee 1% non-citizens (BDites) have ration cards, an error OK in INITAL phase for all states except NE. I agree with you that we need a far far better ID system than ration card system. The draft needed to create ID system is given below

http://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.id.htm
http://www.rahulmehta.com/id01.htm

Why is above ID system superior? becuase registration is done AT BIRTH, and parents' IDs are registered on ID card of the child as well. The above draft has provisions for biometric means, iff/when cost permits.

coming to police:

Ind haryana, Chautala used to take from 5-7 lakhs for appointment of a constable. and a constable who used to pay such money for the job, used to make sure he recovers that amount in fastest time thru whatever means. similarly, we have frauds in admission procedures of many fields. this crime or forging or leaking papers/results of competitive exams is IMO among the worst crimes possible. as you infect the whole society with bad blood.


Thats because

1)we have DISCRETIONARY powers in appointment. If the recruitment is STRICTLY by objective written exams, and openly held physical examinations, corruption will reduce. Those who have served in military for 15 years should get priority.

2)Commons dont have ways to imprison bribe takers and givers. Commons can even imprison those who leak papers. An HCj in Punjab, named Justice Gill, got her daughter Amol Gill appointed as Magistrate after getting question paper in advance. Both are still free birds and HCj is even getting pension !!! The judges have power to imprison corrupt, and over 100 out of 99 (I repeat, over 100 out of 99) are like Justice Bhayana. Iff/when we commons (Jurors) get power to imprison briber takers/givers, bribe takers/givers will land in prison, and their property will get confiscated. Corruption will reduce everywhere, indcluding pandudom.

I think to make PANDUDOM better we need to:

-make selection process transparent and fair.


Agree. How? I suggest we recruit ALL pandus STRICTLY by objective written exams and physical tests held in OPEN grounds before commons. Give extra X points to those who have served for 15 years in military. And pandu chiefs should be elected/recallable.

-set out transparent appraisal policies, giving more weightage to discipline and effort, than to encounters and flattery. as the latter raises chances of foul play.


Following law would suffice
1)All transfers by randomized selection onlee
2)Jurors can expel a pandu if they seem unfit

No point in a senior neta/babu, like Home Minister/Secretary, evaluate pandus. Such "appraisals" makes pandus slaves of neta/babus.

-discover(invent) heros within the force, let them become example of no nonsense and no compromise police force.

Heroes will emerge iff/when corrupt land in prison and their ill gotten wealth is confiscated. eg Wanna see good judges? Do an RDB on Bhayana and chances of good judges coming will increase.

the solution for all Major problems are always OBVIOUS. but its the OBVIOUS that we people find very hard to do.


There is a MAJOR disagreement amongst WMCC (WMCC = well meaning concerned citizens, no sarcasm).

Many WMCC, like myself, believe that solution to pandudom and other problems is to further DEMOCRATIZE. i.e. increase power of commons .... allow commons to expel pandus, allow commons to elect/recall dusrict pandu chiefs, elect/recall judges etc. Whereas many WMCC believe that solution is in further crushing the commons. Given the super sharp disagrements, forging action is difficult.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Mar 2006 12:20

Tapasvi: It would be great if you can post your drafts here rahul bhai, as then we can discuss better.


Paging Admin Ramana ,

Do I have yr permission to post and discuss the following drafts?

http://www.rahulmehta.com/pol01.htm
http://www.rahulmehta.com/pol02.htm

These drafts, if/when commons get passed in Assembly, will improve pandudom.

Tapasvi,

I wud LOVE to publish the drafts. Thats what I live on these days --- hopes that India will get JurySys, elected pandus chiefs, elected judges etc one day. But first lemme get admin's NOC. I would also request you to ask/force admins to gimme an NOC. Admins in past did NOT like discussion on legal issues, and issues like corruption in Nbjps. I had a thread on corruption in judges in 2002 AD, and admins trashed it. I also had a thread on "improving law-making in India", where I had published the drafts and win some support. But admins trashed it. That aside, in past, admins have burned my a1s for discussing issues like corruption in judiciary/pandudom etc. So better wait, and canvas, for their permission. Meanwhile, there is NO copyright on my drafts. So feel free to publish them ANYWHERE incl BR. :)

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Tapasvi » 07 Mar 2006 12:56

Bravo!

If we are only discussing problems and not the solutions, its wasting time!
I think we should start a grand Solution oriented approach on BRF. This can ignite many pathbreaking ideas!

will read your drafts again to discuss on them.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Mar 2006 18:57

Tapasvi wrote:Bravo!

If we are only discussing problems and not the solutions, its wasting time!


Agree. But EVERYONE does have a solution in mind. And problem is --- SOLUTIONS differ vastly. Many times, when a person proposes a solution, other person would find it worse than the problem. eg when in many seminars in Abad I attend, I propose the "solution" that we commons should have procedures to expel HCjs/SCjs. You see the raging fits many "intellectuals" have at such proposals.

In 2002 AD, when I started threads on proposals to increase democraticness in India, there was a lot bad blood. Many BRites were so hostile to my proposals, they would call me leftist, communist, anti-India etc. I didnt mind that ... as I am thick skinned. But many complained to admins as well. Finally, admins got sick and decied to ban topics like politics, corruption, administration, law, courts, pandu atrocities etc. But apparently banning those topics did NOT solve problems of India :mrgreen: !!! So such threads are sprouting again.

I think we should start a grand Solution oriented approach on BRF. This can ignite many pathbreaking ideas!

Agree. Admins should allow discussion on solutions to ALL problems that west has solved. If west has solved a problem, like corruption in pandudom, it proves solution exists. We onlee to need discover that solution, NOT invent it. And after discovering it, we need to COPY it.

will read your drafts again to discuss on them.

Thanks :)

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Rishirishi » 07 Mar 2006 20:45

Here is one reason why India is still in hell hole compared to West : Obsession of concerned citizens on micro-issues, nano-issues and pico-issues, and IGNORE mega-issues.

Mega-issue : SCjs (incl SC-Cj) promote judge Bhayana after he gives seven years to criminal, who is billionaire_cum_neta-putra, to break all witnesses.

pico-issue : I lost my bag.

When it comes to pandudon, I request you to focus on ORGANIZED crimes for the time being. Luggage getting lost is a petty crime, which do NOT wreck the nations. The organized crime, like judge Bhayana getting promotion, is ORGANIZED crime that will wreck the nation.

The pandu did NOT take yr complain becuase babu (Home Secretary) and neta (Home Minister) compile statiistics which gives EQUAL weight to organized crimes like financial frauds and bags getting stolen. And a pandu inspector is WRONGLY rated by number of crimes getting registered in his pandu station. So he does not like to register complains. So blaming the pandu for NOT taking FIR is like cursing a clerk. It is ph1cking neta's (neta like MMk whom you support) who rate officers in mudane ways. And so officers behave in mundane ways.



Sorry for a rather hash reply. I was just so p+++ssed off with the police.

But my essence of the post remains the same. The fault is not really withing the system, but with the people entrusted to enforce it.

The politicians, judges and police outsource the criminal activities and get a comission out of it. To break this system you need to make all thease institutions free from political control. So that they are free and can do their work.
It does not help improving the sytem. No matter how good the system is, people will find ways to manupilate it. Just look at the Jessica Lal case. She was murdered openly and the criminals go free. Had the police not been in the pockets of the politicians, the would have got convicted.

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Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2006 02:01

RM, People can discuss your ideas/solutions. Lead the discussion and dont let it go out of contrrol. BTW are you a lawyer?

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 08 Mar 2006 10:27

ramana wrote:RM, People can discuss your ideas/solutions. Lead the discussion and dont let it go out of contrrol.


Thanks

ramana wrote:BTW are you a lawyer?

No. I am a plain vanilla VisualBasic /Excel/MS-SQL coder. But have visited courts in US as well as India 100s of times to study, compare and contrast Indian/US adminstration. (It turns out that law is simpler than 8th std maths ... and much much simpler than code most coders write in their sleep. For that matter, most eminenet lawyers and judges I "investigated" had got pathetic maths marks in their metric exam.) Due to frequent visits and readings, I have become quite fluent with law and law drafting etc.

Will post the drafts etc soon.

Thanks once again for the permission.

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Postby Harshad » 18 Mar 2006 05:35

Nagpur Police website
http://nagpurpolice.org
The link could be added here

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Postby Vasu » 20 Mar 2006 23:41

this is from the ePaper of Da Tabloid, so no link.

Policing All Set For Revamp In Gurgaon

By Payal Saxena/TNN
Gurgaon: It may be hailed as the Millennium City, but security (or rather, the lack of it) has always been a major blot on Gurgaon’s face. But not any more. Understaffed and outdated policing is all set to be history here, claim the city police authorities.

Against a requirement of 33 inspectors, 138 sub-inspectors, 399 assistant sub-inspectors, 540 head constables and 1,765 constables, the department only has 13 inspectors, 10 sub-inspectors, 21 assistant sub-inspectors, 60 head constables and 244 constables. This when, they have to manage a mammoth population of about 10 lakh people.

The number of property cases (robbery, dacoity and burglary) registered in Gurgaon is the highest in the state at 3,124. Worse, it is on a steady rise. Between January and March 2005, 143 cases of auto theft were registered in Gurgaon. The corresponding figure for this year is 214. Similarly, while only four cases of robbery were registered last year, 10 cases have already been reported till date this year. Cases of burglary have also increased to 72 as against the 49 registered last year.

Pathbreaking Proposals

Not surprisingly, the project proposes seven new police stations along with 127 gypsies and 103 motor cycles. Two new concepts have also been introduced — the digital radio trunking system and broadband outdoor surveillance system, estimated to cost Rs 7 crore and Rs 1 crore respectively.

A specialised bomb disposal squad equipped with armours, scanners and sniffer dogs is also on the list of demands.

But now, the PCR will be revamped. When someone calls, his/her contact number, time and date of call, name and address will be saved in the computer and a call number will be assigned for future reference. A map of the area of crime will also flash on the computer screen along with the location of the nearest PCR. That PCR will be relayed the details in a fraction of a second. Also, all PCRs will be equipped with adequate weapons and manpower.

If a complainant suspects someone’s involvement in a crime, the latter’s name can also be given. If part of the database, his entire profile will then be flashed. The software will contain the details of all criminals, prisoners and even suspects. The PCR will also have a specialised staff to handle the system. A large number of personnel are already being trained in this regard.

On the other hand, broadband outdoor surveillance will mean upgradation of the security room at the base of every highrise in Gurgaon which will in turn be connected to the main control room. Beat constables, who are barely equipped with a wireless currently will be given relay radios.




Kindly notice that these are proposals which are yet to be cleared by the state government, so I can safely assume the dirty neta to cut some corners.

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Postby uddu » 29 Mar 2006 08:17

Police Draft Acting committe
http://www.mha.nic.in/padc.htm

E-mail your suggestions to padc-mha@nic.in

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Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2006 02:31

From Pioneer, 4 April, 2006
CRPF: Crippled, redundant protection farce

Mohit Kandhari/ Jammu

The shocking firing incident, resulting in the killing of three CRPF personnel inside the official residence of Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad late Monday evening, seems to have stirred the conscience of the country's elitist force, already facing shortage of trained officers.

On Tuesday, Director General CRPF JK Sinha, while raising the issue of shortage of trained officers, demanded that it was high time the State Governments got together and started raising fresh battalions, besides modernising their own forces to ease pressure on the central forces.

Talking to reporters at the CRPF headquarters in Bantalab, after holding a series of meetings with senior CRPF officials and jawans of the 4th battalion, JK Sinha said CRPF needs immediate respite from tough deployments. He added that the state governments should also look at improving the infrastructural facilities for CRPF jawans, posted on duty in the State.

Responding to a horde of questions, especially regarding things which bothered CRPF and its jawans, Sinha said, "I admit CRPF is facing a shortage of officers. But I must also tell you that it is upto the Government of India to act now and ask the state governments to raise their own forces to share our burden".

"Our jawans do not feel stressed out due to extreme working conditions and long stay in militancy infested regions. We are meant to fight. Our job involves giving assistance. But at the same time we need respite", he said. "We are aware of the difficulties and our constant endeavour is to improve the working conditions and inter personal relationship between jawans and officers to avoid such incidents in the future", he added.

DG CRPF further said lack of 'buddy culture' in CRPF was responsible for the growing incidents of stress related violence among jawans in the force. He added that it was not due to lack of discipline but due to lack of sensitivity on the part of fellow colleagues that such incidents occurred.

Referring to the ongoing inquiry and the case which took place inside the CM's house, he said, "a 30-year-old jawan Anand Kumar Singh, who killed three CRPF personnel, was one of the best shots of the battalion and was selected for this prestigious duty on the basis of his shooting prowess".

While briefing reporters on the sequence of events that preceded the shooting incident, Sinha said that Anand Kumar Singh had probably misunderstood his seniors. The jawan was prevented from attending his sister's marriage, due at April 12 in Chappra district of Bihar. Added to it his senior colleagues had pointed out that he was not doing his duty properly. He took this to be a severe punishment and acted abnormally.

In the end Sinha said that the matter needed a proper analysis.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Apr 2006 20:57

ramana wrote:From Pioneer, 4 April, 2006

CRPF: Crippled, redundant protection farce

Mohit Kandhari/ Jammu

The shocking firing incident, resulting in the killing of three CRPF personnel inside the official residence of Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad late Monday evening, seems to have stirred the conscience of the country's elitist force, already facing shortage of trained officers.

On Tuesday, Director General CRPF JK Sinha, while raising the issue of shortage of trained officers, demanded that it was high time the State Governments got together and started raising fresh battalions, besides modernising their own forces to ease pressure on the central forces. ...


vermins like PM/FM such as AVB-EP, MMS, Rajmata, Chidambaram, Yashwant Sinha, Jaswant Singh and CM/FM at state levels are hostile to increasing budgets of pandus. So number of pandus does not increase significantly, and salaries in pandudom rises at about 5%/yr. While these vermin neta raised money supply of economy at the rate of 15%/yr. So salaries and business incomes in mkt rises at the rate of 10%-15% a year. As a result, salaries in pandu sector are way below private for same level of competence. As a result, good ppl dont join pandudom. And those who join become corrupt or leave.

Unless the budget of pandudon and courts increase, the staff will remain overburdened. The judges dont care ... they pass the burden to litigants by delaying and delaying. But pandus can be forced to work overtime, and they so they end up working long hrs. e.g. In Abad, I head that most constables work 14 hrs a day, 6 days a week. With such workload, efficiency will go down, and behavior will worsen.

The concerned citizens must pass laws that would ensure that pandudom does not starve of funds.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby VickersB » 11 Apr 2006 21:58

:evil:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060411/main5.htm

Drunken cops vandalise Golf Range, beat up staff
Naveen S. Garewal and Ramanjit Singh Sidhu
Tribune News Service



Broken windowpane of the CGA Golf Range, near Kishangarh, after inebriated persons beat up the catering staff and damaged windowpanes on Sunday. — Tribune photo by Pradeep Tewari
Chandigarh, April 10
Five unidentified persons, claiming to be the top echelon of the Punjab police, accompanied by AK 47 wielding gunmen, went to the Golf Range, run by the Chandigarh Golf Association (CGA), and after having a lot of alcohol and food refused to pay the bill. When confronted, the men, claiming to be police officers, beat up the catering staff, including the bar manager and captain.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 18 Apr 2006 08:29

VickersB wrote: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060411/main5.htm

Drunken cops vandalise Golf Range, beat up staff .... Five unidentified persons, claiming to be the top echelon of the Punjab police, accompanied by AK 47 wielding gunmen, went to the Golf Range, run by the Chandigarh Golf Association (CGA), ...


Such incidences happen, because when they happened in past, the judges did NOT punish them, as judges/pandus have passive nexuses (you dont expose my corruption ... I wont expose yrs .. and exchange small favors). The senior pansu dont punish junior pandus as junior pandus have DETAILED information about where senior pandus have hidden their ill gotten wealth eg junio pandus know how many plots/flats senior pandus own, and where they are.

Solution? TRIVIAL. JurySys over Pandus.

And one additional reason which increase such incidence is that pandus are very lowly paid compared to work they do and number of hrs they have to put. eg in Abad contsables work 12-14 hrs a day, 6 days a week, and dont get off on many PUBLIC holidays. We need to increase nPandus, and also raise their salaries. How? TRIVIAL Impose wealth tax of 1% on land's mkt value. eg take the said golf club ... is it paying say 1% of land value as wealth tax? I guess not. Well, ask it to cough up wealth tax, or foff. Due to absence of wealth tax, we dont have well paid pandus, and this increase such incidence. Call it poetic (in)justiuce ... but these wealth tax "evaders" deserve ill treatment. I am NOT justifying the act, but IMO, given that elitemen are hostile to wealth tax, and their hostility is INCREASING law-order problems, we should shed 33% LESS tears when an eliteman or his club becomes victim of law-order problem. And this 33% savings in tears should be used when commons become victim of law-order problem.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Vasu » 19 Apr 2006 20:45

more Police stories from Ulta Pradesh.

Small-timers gunning for security cover in UP

Policing supposedly meant for the common man is being sacrificed to tickle egos of 'khadi clad'. Under pressure from the state government, senior police officers in several UP districts have no option but to withdraw manpower from the 'thanas' to provide security cover to even the local political small-timers.
The state home department has received a number of letters from district police chiefs stating that categorised security is adversely affecting policing as they are badly short of staff and weapons to man their respective jurisdiction - ironically because they have to be deployed to protect the people's representatives.

With the number of police personnel devoted to categorised security swelling by the day, policing has become a big casualty.

So much so that police stations in a number of districts are reportedly having acute shortage of staff.

Till last year the average number of politicians and other VIPs enjoying the categorised security was not more than 30.

But, this year it has jumped to almost 70. A 'Z' category security would require posting of at least 37 policemen besides other relevant infrastructure.

According to a senior police official a large number of non deserving persons have been provided security cover on government expenses.

"There are cases where the district committee has rejected security cover for an individual but with right connections in the corridors of power, security has been sanctioned from the top," said the official.


:x ******** Mulayam yadav.

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Postby bala » 22 Apr 2006 02:23

Chennai gets its first woman Police Commissioner

Chennai got its first woman Police Commissioner on Thursday.

Letika Saran, Additional Director-General of Police (ADGP), replaces R. Nataraj, who succeeds her as Additional Director General of Police, Headquarters.

An officer of the 1976 batch of the Indian Police Service, Ms. Letika Saran held additional charge of administration. Born on March 31, 1952, she is a native of Idukki district in Kerala. She is the 36th Chennai Police Commissioner after Independence.

She was ADGP, Training and Project Director, Tamil Nadu Police Academy, and served as the Inspector-General of Police in the Directorate of Vigilance and Anti-Corruption (DVAC).

On June 10, 2002, she was promoted ADGP and posted as ADGP (Training), Chennai.

As Inspector-General of Police in the DVAC, she deposed before a Special Court here in August 2000 in the "disproportionate wealth case" against Chief Minister Jayalalithaa.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 27 Apr 2006 08:15

There was headline in ToI-Abad yesterday (Apr-26-Wed) in the front page (cant find the link) thats Guj Pandu Constables will now form a union, and HCjs have approved it.

The new has some history which goes as follows
1)Guj pandu constables did have a union
2)Many moons ago there was a strike where military had to be called to restore law-order
3)After that, sometime in late 80s, GoG abolished contsables' union
4)Union neta went to HCjs
5)HCjs rule sin favor of union neta.

So now union is back.

Constables have genuine problems. They are understaffed, and over burdened. Most work for 14 hrs a day, 6 to 6.5 days a week. And many are asked to clean floor of IPS-pandus's homes (orderly?) and cut vegetables for their familiy's dinner. And they are terribly underpaid. The shortage is mainly due to shortage of funds, and that is becuase of neta/babu/intellectuals hostility to wealth tax and blowing away money/lands on colleges etc. So constables feel a need a for union. Now imagine a pandu strike along with strike of students, PSU workers etc ....

It is time we commons solve the contables problem by increasing their numbers, raising their pay etc, which can be done if we commons enact wealth tax and reduce land/cash grants to colleges. Otherwise, constables will have no option but to further and further unionize them, and we commons will get scr1wed.

-Rahul Mehta

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 28 May 2006 17:07

to save the thread from getting auto-deleted ....

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Postby Sanjay » 28 May 2006 21:22

Gentlemen, this thread is a very interesting one. It raises questions about the entire criminal justice system in India as well as the structure of a police force that is potentially capable but handicapped by inadequate investment, corruption and neglect.

Let me ask something: how many of the urban class in India will drive without a license and bribe a constable who catches them ?

I throw no stones here, but isn't the bribor as guilty as the bribee ?

Look at weapons: there is no attempt to even maintain the exisiting armoury in operational condition in many States.

Don't expect anyone to play hero if his rifle can't shoot because.

There is also a lack of leadership. Does anyone remember how armed Kolkata police officers with loaded, ready to use revolvers ran away during the American Centre attack while their men were slaughtered ?

Where officers lead by example and deeds, the constabulary will follow.

Let us as one question:Why was the police reform report of 1977 never implemented ?

As an aside, does anyone have any photographs, anecdotes of antique, weird or simply old weapons in police use ?

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Postby Harshad » 28 May 2006 23:03

Sanjay
Let me ask something: how many of the urban class in India will drive without a license and bribe a constable who catches them ?

I throw no stones here, but isn't the bribor as guilty as the bribee ?

True. Both are guilty. But the obvious question is " Why should I pay 500 where I can be let off by paying 20?" The needs of the pandu are not much. Plus you can haggle over the bribe. But I think ACB has taken severe note of this in Mumbai. Generally on the main roads where janata is around ( and possible ACB officer), the officers do not take the risk of accepting cash bribe.

Look at weapons: there is no attempt to even maintain the exisiting armoury in operational condition in many States.

Don't expect anyone to play hero if his rifle can't shoot because.

There is also a lack of leadership. Does anyone remember how armed Kolkata police officers with loaded, ready to use revolvers ran away during the American Centre attack while their men were slaughtered ?

Long back in Ghatkopar, there was a riot when people discovered that Ambedkar bust was desecrated. Obviously they had to burn some cars and buses had to be burned. A PSI on duty noted that the rioters were about to set fire to a Chemical carrying tanker. He ordered firing on the rioting crowd and one was killed. There was a TV footage which clearly showed that the rioter were about to blow up the tanker. But at the end the PSI was suspended for firing. (under political pressure)

So now even if the officers or constables feel the need to fire, they wont because of the fear of losing their jobs.



As an aside, does anyone have any photographs, anecdotes of antique, weird or simply old weapons in police use ?

read This One

Police in India's Bihar state are so short of resources they are using a pack of stray dogs to protect themselves from Maoist rebels.
...
In return for food and their own kitchen, the dogs prowl the premises at night and bark at all intruders.


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