Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

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Tilak
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Postby Tilak » 11 Feb 2007 21:03

Alok_N wrote:PhD coaching classes won't be far off ... :lol:

the true measure of the aukaat of a career in India lies in its desirability in the matrimonial pages ...



:lol: :rotfl:

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 11 Feb 2007 21:30

:rotfl: From personal experience it was very difficult to convince my In laws that I do have full time job and degree in molecular biochemistry will be able to sustain good life for their daughter (see I am a poor dude with no IT/VT degree) heheheheheh :D :D

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 11 Feb 2007 21:46

a few bollywood tramps need to be recruited to enter into high profile weddings to some PhD geeks ... the entire nation will want a PhD next .


Just when I was managing to start focusing on what I need to finish today.... :(

If only Rakesh had allowed the Romance Thread which was started with the usual farsightedness of Urs Truly, we would have had this problem solved long since.

Forget Bollywood Bimbos.

An insufficiently known fact is that engineering PhDs can fix TV remote controls (OK, it was by hitting it against a chair, but innovative methods can't be held against the true innovator). Put THAT in the matrimonial ad, and u'll have to pay the post office extra to get the tons of proposals delivered to ur warehouse.

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Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2007 00:06

X-posted from India - China thread.

India lags behind China in sci-tech workforce

[quote]
From our correspondent

12 February 2007


KOLKATA — A top Indian scientist has publicly admitted that India will take at least 163 years to match China’s science and technology workforce of 850,000 — an index of China's super-power status.

The Telegraph newspaper in a startling disclosure yesterday quoted Gangan Prathap — chief scientist of Bangalore-based Centre for Mathematical Modelling and Computer Simulation — as saying that even if Beijing were to freeze the 850,000-strong scientific workforce, India which produces 4,500 science doctorates annually, would be at par with China only in 2170 AD.

At present India’s science and technology workforce is only 115,000-strong — roughly one-eight of the communist giant's. Significantly, both countries are nuclear-armed and are the two most-populated countries in the world.

Commenting on Prathap’s revelation, [b]C. N. Rao, chief scientific adviser to India’s Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, told the English daily: “We are lagging very far behind China. The biggest problem India will face in the next decade or so is a human resource crunch in science and technology.â€

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Postby Yugandhar » 14 Feb 2007 00:28

ramana
CNR has done a little if not a great deal to improve conditions for science in india. He did start JNCASR which is slowly but steadily doing better science. I think he has been the major force to get the 3 IISERs (indian institute for science education and research) into existence. These institutions are to focus on training students to have reseach bent of mind right from BSc level. I guess they want another two IISERs. The biggest issue is getting a decent critical mass of faculty. nobody is tempted to join for the peanuts that they offer. they have nearly doubled and in some fellowships tripled the salaries for postdocs, but most phds end up in the US. nobody believes they can futher their career by doing a postdoc in india.
The establishment too expects gora-trained faculty.
CNR even though long past retirement is still actively doing research. I admire him for his enthusiasm.

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Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2007 01:19

Thanks Yugandhar about CNR. Sorry for the rant.

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Postby SaiK » 14 Feb 2007 03:49

[quote]Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is aware of the “disconnectâ€

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 14 Feb 2007 08:42

N^3 might know Gangan Prathap!


Sure, in the sense that N^3 may know Abdul Kalam and Mahatma Gandhi and Chandragupta Vikramaditya. Come on, N^3 is not THAT old! :roll:

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Postby Sanjay M » 14 Feb 2007 09:29

It's not just about how to create more PhD's.

Read this - a good article on how innovation needs to be measured in quantifiable terms:

<a href="http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=0310038EKJ68">http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=0310038EKJ68</a>

Innovation is important, and shouldn't be reduced to a mere slogan or buzzword. In order to achieve innovation in a more reliable and optimal fashion, there need to be more solid criteria, metrics and methodologies for it.

The H-index (Hirsch Index) is supposed to be a new way to rank the productivity of academic researchers:

http://www.physorg.com/news7971.html

Among other things, it measures how often an academic's papers are cited by others. Good way to help reduce corruption and laxity amongst academia.

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Postby Murugan » 23 Feb 2007 16:43

Don't teach them How To Sail, but, ignite the desire for Sea

let phd seekers (and knowledge seekers) read and appreciate this.

Appetite for knowledge is the key:

http://www.sanskrit.nic.in/ABOUTSANSKRIT1.htm

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Postby negi » 23 Feb 2007 18:16

Aha some very serious discussion .....while we all are discussing the number of Doctrates being awarded each year (particularly in science and tech) ,shouldnt we take into consideration the factors that govern/decide an individul's chances of opting for a Phd that too in India.

some questions which I need to ask

1.What is the need for Phd in India ?Iow what sort of significance it lends to an individuals credentials in India vis a vis EU/US.

2.Given a choice where would a wannabe Doctrate wish to pursue his/her Phd. Top institution in India or a decent University in US (I did not include like of MIT/Princeton or likes and tried to make comparasion realistic) ?.We can discuss above point for candidates from varying financial backgrounds .

3.What are the career prospects for a Doctrate in India (apart from CSIR labs and Navratnas) ? Iow in todays scenario what role a Doctrate from IIsc/TFIR or likes would play in India's private sector ?

Answers to these questions should make the picture more clear.Oh btw are you guys aware of QIP (Quality Improvement Programme).My college had a MOU with IIT powai where by selected Faculty members were allowed to take up a full time Mtech/Phd course in IITB,and boy by the time I graduated most of em were Doctrates.


Alok_N wrote:the true measure of the aukaat of a career in India lies in its desirability in the matrimonial pages ...

Yes and it is independent of the profession,infact governed by the salary and other social parameters.I dont see why a Doctrate would be treated differently.
to get more PhDs in India is very zimble onlee ... a few bollywood tramps need to be recruited to enter into high profile weddings to some PhD geeks ... the entire nation will want a PhD next ... :)

lol........ahem. on a serious note we would need to create oppertunities or necessary system/infra which would require and utilise the services of Phd's.How do we go about that is left for all of us to ponder.

Alokji while I was thinking about all this I recollect a discussion with you where myself and Saty were defending the Indian edu system,well after taking Phd programme into perspective ,should say I wonder whether I was correct the other day. :wink:

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Postby Alok_N » 23 Feb 2007 21:08

negi,

if that discussion happened more than a few weeks ago, my brain has very efficiently expunged all the data ... we can start over ... there are various ways of looking at the edu system in India ... in the past, I have defended the geek production factories, aka, eye eye tee ...

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Postby Bade » 24 Feb 2007 00:57

3.What are the career prospects for a Doctrate in India (apart from CSIR labs and Navratnas) ? Iow in todays scenario what role a Doctrate from IIsc/TFIR or likes would play in India's private sector ?


Many I know have ended up with all kinds of jobs with MNCs like Lever, GE, Lucent, high school teachers, College teachers and even home-makers. :lol: The distribution is not very different from average B.Techs either in terms of diversity of jobs.

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Postby Rahul M » 24 Feb 2007 05:46

if you consider the basic sciences, a large % of chemistry guys(esp organic chem) land up plum jobs in the pvt/PSU industry. so does some material sc/exp cond. mat guys. statistics/maths people get soaked up in banks (both pvt and public) and in what else, but IT !!

my feeling is, our chemical industry is somehow more advanced than other manufacturing industries, judging from the fact that they tend to employ quiet a big # of research sc. I may be wrong tho' in this assesment.

of course, others continue in the academic line (in most cases).

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Postby shyamd » 24 Feb 2007 18:03

THE HINDU, FEBRUARY 19, 2007

China shows the way in science education

Gautam R. Desiraju

There will be a real pay-off only if we invest in training young people in the universities well. This is where China is correctly placing its money, and where we are totally off track.

CHINA HAS invested a massive amount in strengthening teaching and research in universities during the last decade. The Chinese scenario in the education sector was bleak till 1980. The Cultural Revolution had debilitated an entire generation. There were no teachers, and research productivity was close to nil.

Today, however, the Chinese performance is truly impressive and it stands only behind the United States in overall scientific productivity, measured in the number of research papers. The Indian contribution, on the other hand, has only risen slightly above what it was in 1980. By no means can we be said to be competitive.

An analysis, using the ISI Thomson Web of Science, of papers published in the three top chemistry journals (chemistry being selected as a representative subject) between 2000 and 2006 (both years inclusive) is revealing. The figures for the U.S., China, and India (in that order) are: Angewandte Chemie (impact factor 9.60; numbers of papers: 2138, 396, 88), Journal of the American Chemical Society, JACS, (7.40; 11113, 602, 140), Chemical Communications (4.40; 1858, 794, 286).

The Chinese figures parallel the very heavy investments made in education and science and technology (S&T) spheres in that country, and are described in their impressive MLP (medium-to-long term plan for the development of science and technology) launched in January 2006. It is clear that investments of a similarly high order will be required in India for a significant breakthrough difference.

A more detailed look at these statistics shows that the Indian position is fundamentally flawed. Considering only papers in JACS, it is seen that the Chinese Academy of Sciences, CAS, (186) has nearly four times the number of papers as all the CSIR laboratories put together (51). The great breadth of the Chinese output is also noteworthy.

Not only do the prestigious CAS and Peking University (65) have high outputs but also the next tier of universities such as Fudan (36), Nanjing (25), Nankai (25), Jilin (24), and Xiamen (23).

All the IITs taken together have only 26 papers in this journal. The IISc has 35 and the University of Hyderabad 15. That’s about it. All the IITs put together equal just one second-tier Chinese university! The "prestigious" IISc, which was given Rs.100 crore by the Government so that it could become another Harvard, does not fare much better. So much for all the hoopla about these institutions being centres of excellence!

Nothing in India measures up to the Chinese yardstick. What is China doing in terms of funding? It is notoriously difficult to get accurate numbers but public domain knowledge has it that they are roughly investing the equivalent of Rs.1,000 crore a year in chemistry departments in about 100 universities. The CAS gets the lion’s share of around Rs.200 crore a year but even the rest get respectable amounts. I will extrapolate now to all subjects, and say that they are probably spending in the order of Rs.10,000 crore a year in all departments in these 100 universities and institutes.

Chemistry is a good average in terms of expenditure because a few subjects need a lot more money (physics, biology) while many other subjects need much less.

A major area of investment in Chinese universities is the upgrading of undergraduate teaching labs. We spend almost nothing on this front even as we stuff up a few "prestige" institutes with costly equipment. But there will be a real pay-off only if we invest in training young people in the universities well. This is where China is correctly placing its money, and this is where we are totally off track.

A word about student numbers and quality is necessary. The second-tier Chinese universities have around 100 PhD students each in the chemistry departments. The CAS chemistry institutes have nearly 1,000 PhD students. A single institution, the Shanghai Institute of Organic Chemistry (a unit of CAS), has 400 PhD students, mostly trained for future industrial positions within China. Such a thing is unheard of in India, where the student output is rushing headlong to the U.S. where it settles for positions with little or no responsibility, and often lack of tenure and security.

However, the number of PhD students per institution is roughly the same in China and India with each IIT, IISc, Hyderabad University or CSIR lab having around 100 chemistry PhD students. So in terms of efficiency, each of our students is far less efficient than his or her Chinese counterpart. It means our students are not well trained at the M.Sc. level and this, in turn, goes back to the B.Sc. (where much of the trouble begins).

Our most important screen for PhD admission, namely the CSIR/UGC NET exam, is just not discriminating enough and it is letting a lot of sub-standard students pass after attending coaching classes. This is not so in China where they are spending real money at the undergraduate level.

Without sounding unduly harsh, let me say that we lack the will, determination, and capacity for hard work to develop 100 excellent universities like the Chinese. Perhaps developing 20 good universities with funding at the Chinese levels is not beyond us given the present scenario and current realities in India. This would call for an outlay of Rs.2,000 crore a year. In about 10 years (and Rs.20,000 crore later), the benefits would become apparent.

The recently launched Indian Institutes of Science Education and Research (IISER) in Kolkata and Pune are our tentative answers to this crisis. Starting just a few IISERs is sub-critical. The IITs were started with much fanfare 50 years ago. What have they really achieved, apart from donating a qualified workforce to the U.S.? The IITs have had no penetration into this vast country, and ever since the rise of the cram schools, even the quality of the IIT output is questionable. The IISERs will be no different.

The present situation in India has arisen because of many sins of commission and omission by our academics and scientists over the past 25 years. We have idled away our time, in part burdened by a Soviet mindset; in part because of crackpot ideas of indigenisation of equipment; in part because of our infatuation with populist measures; in part by handing over our science administration to the debris that was left in the country after the massive brain drain in the 1960s and 1970s; in part by giving undue emphasis to largely meaningless awards, fellowships, and prizes; and in part by saying and doing nothing even as the deterioration around us became all too obvious.

Attractive paradigm

In the meantime, an alternative and very attractive paradigm has taken root and is described neatly by Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Iyer in the Times of India (January 7, 2007). Mr. Iyer argues cogently that scientists such as C.N.R. Rao could be dead wrong when they say that Indian science and technology are in crisis. Indian science may be dead, according to Mr. Iyer, but Indian technology has never been doing better: Tata Motors, Infosys, Bharat Forge, Reliance Industries, Shanta Biotech, Tata Steels’ acquisition of Corus, Biocon, Bajaj Auto, Hero Honda, contract R&D specially in the pharmaceutical and bioinformatics sectors.

Many of Mr. Iyer’s arguments ring true and it is entirely possible that the Indian creative genius and our inherent capitalistic tendencies have found a solution wherein good technology can develop independent of any progress in science or lack thereof. Perhaps one is wrong when one says that the only way to good technology is through a sound science base. This was true in post-Second World War U.S. but it might not be true in the India of today.

Who is right, Professor Rao or Mr. Iyer? I do not know, but what I do know for sure is that remedial measures in our science and education sectors need to be taken incisively, swiftly, and almost ruthlessly. Our fatal attraction for incremental changes and consensual thinking has been our undoing. The country will not wait for its academics to get their act together. Instead of being path breakers and innovators, scientists are struggling to come to terms with the new India that has little patience with the idle, the poor, and the corrupt.

(The writer is a professor of chemistry at the University of Hyderabad. He is a Fellow of the Indian National Science Academy and the Academy of Sciences for the Developing World.)

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Postby ASPuar » 25 Feb 2007 12:31

Rahul M wrote:if you consider the basic sciences, a large % of chemistry guys(esp organic chem) land up plum jobs in the pvt/PSU industry. so does some material sc/exp cond. mat guys. statistics/maths people get soaked up in banks (both pvt and public) and in what else, but IT !!

my feeling is, our chemical industry is somehow more advanced than other manufacturing industries, judging from the fact that they tend to employ quiet a big # of research sc. I may be wrong tho' in this assesment.

of course, others continue in the academic line (in most cases).


PhDs in Economics do pretty well too.

Prannoy Roy, prez of NDTV has one. So does the current PM.

In a side note, did you guys know that Prannoy Roy is married to Brinda Karats sister? AND is Arundirty Roys cousin?

No leftist media nexus here....

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Postby negi » 26 Feb 2007 13:22

Let me re phrase my query.

Is India facing a resource crunch in terms of the quality Doctrates in key areas ?

1.If yes then the problem seems to be from the 'SUPPLY' side i.e. either the younger gen are happy to opt for easy way out (i.e. opt for campus placements after a Btech or even a Intg Mtech), or their is a lack of facilities (infra/course related) which discourages one from pursuing a Phd in India.

2.If NO the again it leaves us with a lot of unanswered questions

i)What sort of strides in Industrialisation and science and tech are we talking about when we have a mere 4500(ref. Acharyaji's post) Doctrates each year ?(consider the fact that the figure includes areas like economics,literature etc).

Imho campus placements are a key factor that influences a Engg grads decision to pursure higher edu or take the job.Perhaps it also explains the reasons for just 26 papers presented by all the IIT's and 35 by IIsc alone(figures from Hindu article ).

I am not trying to say that we need to churn out more Phd's each year ,but only trying to reason out disproportionate number of B Techs vis a vis Phd's or even M Techs. :roll:

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Postby Bade » 26 Feb 2007 17:40

Imho campus placements are a key factor that influences a Engg grads decision to pursure higher edu or take the job.


That should not be a prime reason to drive the argument at all. Why should the policy be restricted to what the local job placement prospects are ? If one uses that argument circa 20 years ago there was no need to have CS programs in indian universities. Even now a large majority of Indian human resources is being used to improve the quality of life of the west and increasing the bottomlines of largely western corporations :lol: with a few crumbs in billions thrown in the pockets of Infosys, Wipro etc.

If there is a shortage of qualified hands (PhDs) in the world market then we need to address them ourselves before the Chinese get to it. Since, that will be a resource than India can tap anytime later when it needs. If you dont invest in them now and temporarily export them if there is a oversupply locally, then it might come to bite us later when we need them badly.

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Postby negi » 26 Feb 2007 18:26

Bade wrote: That should not be a prime reason to drive the argument at all. Why should the policy be restricted to what the local job placement prospects are ? If one uses that argument circa 20 years ago there was no need to have CS programs in indian universities.

Er.. I guess you got me wrong here,I was trying to read into the mindset of a todays Engg Graduate and his/her perception about the Phd vis a vis a seemingly lucrative offer by a MNC.As far as introduction of CS as Engg course is considered well again when it was introduced in late eighties it wasnt a immediate fav amongst the wannabe Engg (Mech and Electrical ruled the roost,and ETC was coming to the scene) ,infact DRDO and many PSU's did not include CS/IT as a course under the eligibilty criteria under their recruitment scheme until 2000.



Even now a large majority of Indian human resources is being used to improve the quality of life of the west and increasing the bottomlines of largely western corporations :lol: with a few crumbs in billions thrown in the pockets of Infosys, Wipro etc.

Very true.

If there is a shortage of qualified hands (PhDs) in the world market then we need to address them ourselves before the Chinese get to it.

Bade ji dont you think it contradicts above statement.Having said that yes there is/will be a demand for specialised skillset but we need to encourage and hone the same in India along with catering to the global market (perhaps will have to give priority to the former.....imho onlee).Actually we have sort of drifted away from the topic,for the moment we say catering to global market 'brain drain' and similar dangers associated with phoren markets come to my mind.


Since, that will be a resource than India can tap anytime later when it needs. If you dont invest in them now and temporarily export them if there is a oversupply locally, then it might come to bite us later when we need them badly.


I did not get the export thingy ? by export do you mean to render some sort of expert consulting services in niche areas .

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Postby Bade » 26 Feb 2007 20:01

Negi, sorry if I misunderstood you. I am not against global brain drain. People like me are one of the drained brains. :)

My point was that if we can tolerate indian brains being harvested for MNC gains with some collateral benefits to Indian economy, then we should not limit our PhD production capacity based on our immediate needs to hire PhDs in India.

If ISRO, DRDO cannot get skilled hands with PhDs to stay it is for altogether another reason. Mainly IMO to do with compensation. If GOI and the people of India do not value them I whole heartedly encourage them to migrate to richer pastures which will include PRC in the near future. People will follow the money trail. There are already Indian scientists making a line to Japan, Taiwan in addition to Singapore. PRC will not be left behind either in attracting the same brains.

By export I mean specifically the post PhD period to do a couple of Post-Doc followed by a temporary position and absorb them back say in 10 yrs time if they want to return. The pipeline has to be kept well oiled and flowing so 'export' has to be allowed. No need to hand wring that Indian PhDs are going abroad only after investing in them by GoI. Such crying and wailing is valid if Indian PhDs do leave shore even with compensation comparable to the west. Till then happily let them migrate following a 5 yr PhD stint after they do valuable work for the Indian taxpayer.

Currently, it is being said that we cannot even get PhD students so need to make it attractive for them to migrate. Collaboration with phoren labs etc is a way to go for now. Then incrementally increase funding for permanent positions in India to absorb people with more exposure to the world and the state of science and technology. IMO, this is what the chinese are doing and this is what the americans did more than 50 years ago.

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Postby Bade » 02 Mar 2007 03:27

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb252007/413.pdf

Bridging the gap: Converting our best national laboratories into
‘IISER’

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Swami Vivekananda and JN Tata

Postby vsunder » 18 Feb 2008 06:06

A long time friend of mine who actually wrote the letter in Current Science linked by the previous postor sent me this astonishing link from the archives of the IISc.
It says that JN Tata offered Swami Vivekananda the post of the first director of the IISc. Also the speech of the Mysore Maharaja on laying the foundation stone of the IISc of great interest. He argues for scholarships
based on merit. The Mysore maharaja gave the land for IISc.

http://archives.iisc.ernet.in/iisc_tata_vivek_kalam.htm

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Postby Vriksh » 18 Feb 2008 18:57

A lot of Ph.D students in Indian institutes are unable to make the transition from rote type learning and regurgitation in their formative years to the academic rigor expected from a Ph.D type degree where it is important for a student to independently

1. formulate the problem
2. analyze the state of the art in literature
3. design experiments that validate hypothesis
4. look for solutions based on above process

Most of those who can make this transition are snapped up by Massa and others in the western world. That leaves only a few to do academic research in India itself. As a result a lot of research in India therefore depends on the ability of the faculty advisor to think for their students and give a step by step procedure in order to get the results needed. This is no longer acceptable for Indian needs in the face of global competition. The inculcation of a questioning attitude has to occur from primary school itself.

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Postby ShauryaT » 12 Mar 2008 22:29

Do something, Mr Speaker - Pratap Bhanu Mehta
But let us not delve into the past. Just look at the UPA’s recent doings. Most people agree that the licence permit regulatory system in higher education needs to be modified. What does the government do? The government has twiddled for four years. It gets some recommendations from the Knowledge Commission. And then it appoints another 27-member committee to look into the matter, a committee that seems dominated by individuals and civil servants who created this mess in the first place. This looks like a recipe for inaction.

[/quote]

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Postby Venkarl » 06 Jun 2008 12:50

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080052137

please help him..can some one on BRF get in touch with him...we can adopt guys like this...can some one get his account number and bank routing number??

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Postby Stan_Savljevic » 06 Jun 2008 13:23

Venkarl wrote:please help him..can some one on BRF get in touch with him...we can adopt guys like this...can some one get his account number and bank routing number??

Boss, if you dont mind, I can offer my sober thought process. For every case that NDTV or ToI or Hindu or any other paper in India highlights, there are million others that never see the light of day. Just ask your near and dear ones back home for needy folks.

The big issue I have with NDTV et al is that they highlight one case and then a gazillion Indians (in India as well as away) offer to help this one soul; which they highlight in BLOCK capitals on their channels or their websites. They use that for advertising saying how the "NDTV touch" helped this one guy et al. And how he would be not doing what he is doing now if not for them. Then they scoot off till their next cause celebre comes into the forefront.

Keep your eyes opened and look around or ask around. I usually would nt want to write on this topic, but I found the recent spate of NDTV/ToI articles about needy students just a bit too disingenuous (from NDTV's dramabaazi viewpoint) given that I have seen really needy folks back when I was there. I guess the saying empty vessels (DDM) make more noise is apt in this context.

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Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2008 14:30

Stan bhai any comments on the latest posts in educashun thread :twisted: (runs away into heavy cover)

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2008 20:58

Engineering education in India

Engineering education in India

Nandini Venkataraman

I read with considerable interest the report in The Hindu dated 26th May,2008 on the meeting organised by Nandini, “Voice for the deprived”, in Chennai on the State of Engineering Education in Tamil Nadu. Being a fairly recent Chemical Engineering graduate from CECRI (Karaikudi in Tamil Nadu) and having had two very different academic experiences in India and the U.S., I feel I have a fairly good vantage point to comment on the situation.

I was only able to assess the quality of education I had received in CECRI, when I came to the U.S. and struggled in my first semester. Engineering education in India is a lot more qualitative than it should be, with inadequate emphasis on numerical ability! The knowledge level, the thinking ability and the creativity of many of the teachers is so poor that they are able to add very little value to their students. Few teachers update themselves and still use outdated textbooks from the 1970s for their classes. My first revelation on this aspect came when I took thermodynamics, a very important subject to most engineers, in my first semester here and realised that I had to completely re-learn many basic concepts!

Demand supply study

The problem is compounded by the quality of students that come into these colleges and their interest levels. Institutes like IITs take great care in the quality of students they select and hence produce good engineers. Other institutions select the "second-tier" students and produce mediocre engineers, with very little value addition in terms of thinking and problem solving ability. Besides, getting an engineering degree has become a default course of action in many instances, rather than a thoughtful decision, as it should be. The students are frequently propelled into an engineering career by peer pressure, family pressure and poor guidance in high school. If there are reliable statistics on the demand-supply situation for engineers in India, I have not seen them and it is certainly not widely known, making it extremely difficult for the student to make informed decisions.

Creative approach

Creativity and original thinking are often acquired qualities and not necessarily inherent and they are certainly some of the most important qualities a good engineer must possess. Creative thinking is rarely encouraged in our high school system of education, which encourages memorizing. I know of people, who are still able to recite text from our high school physics textbook, after so many years!! If schools and colleges do not take a creative and problem solving approach to teaching engineering, how is it reasonable to expect to produce quality engineers? Very often, one finds that students from large cities and those who come from families with educated parents are able to find jobs a lot more easily than students from rural areas, mostly because of their communication abilities and not necessarily due to their technical superiority.

Bridging the gap

It is the duty of the schools and colleges to devise methods to identify shortcomings and bridge such gaps. On the subject of traditional engineering courses such as Chemical and Civil engineering, while it is true that the number of seats are being reduced every year, it is also true that many of the existing chemical engineers are also struggling to find relevant jobs and a lot of them end up in unrelated jobs. So, is it really necessary to increase the number of engineering seats and have more unemployed engineers? If the current and projected demand for engineers in India is known the it may be possible to make the right decision on increasing or decreasing the number of seats.

If we are not careful with management courses, there might come a time when we will have to rethink that as well. However, it is true that many courses, particularly in the humanities, are being largely ignored at the graduate level, probably because colleges do not take efforts to project them adequately. Until the quality of teaching is improved and efforts are made to improve communication skills, the country will continue to produce unemployable engineers.

To improve accountability, one of the things they do in the universities in the U.S. is to request teaching evaluations from students at the end of every course, as a matter of routine.

If the system of education continues as it is, we will merely be "mass producing" engineers, at best.

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby SaiK » 17 Jun 2008 22:40

ask not what the system can do for you, but ask what you can do for the system


:wink:

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby negi » 27 Jun 2008 22:51

I wonder if the 6th pay commission did give some consideration to the Education sector,
for imo if Teaching/Research can be made lucrative then we have a remote chance of capitalising on the RTI types and other potential Research scholars who opt for MBA/IT route.

I see that Infosys has agreed to fund the new Center for Research and Education in Advanced Software Technologies (CAST), I would like to see our IIT's and even NIT's having similar arrangements with Engg Industry in India.

Infact as a initiative to bring the academia and research community together we need to have
provision of scientists/research fellows visiting Engg/Science institutes for lectures , talks or even as SME's for inception of a new course.

And I believe that apart from reforms in the Edu sector ,GOI needs to ensure that likes of DRDO,ISRO and other CSIR labs have extend their facilities/resources to the Engg institutes for research .

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby Kati » 01 Apr 2009 20:26

Taiwan welcomes Indian students

The Statesman, Kolkata, April 1, 2009

Jose Kalathil
NEW DELHI, March 31: The Republic of China or Taiwan as it is known will soon become an education destination for Indian students. Taiwan will welcome those students who have passed Class XII for the academic session beginning from September 2010 for subjects like engineering, business management, etc., the process for which will begin in April. An MoU between the Association of Indian Universities and its Taiwanese counterparts ~ Association of National University, Association of Private Universities & Colleges and Association of Private Universities & Colleges of Technology ~ will be signed by the end of this year.
“The cost for such courses will be 1/10th in Taiwan as compared to countries like Europe, America or Australia,” said Mr Wenchyi Ong, Representative, Taipei Economic and Cultural Centre in New Delhi, in an interview to The Statesman. The annual cost including fees, food and lodging will come to Rs 1.5 to 2 lakh only. (Re 1 = 6.5 NT cents). The degree is equivalent to the one in UK or USA. He hopes to woo 2000 Indian students out of the 1.5 lakh going abroad for studies. Though there is no job guarantee after completion of studies, students will be allowed to work during summer and winter holidays. The representative was confident that Indians could learn 80 per cent of Mandarin easily, as those who speak Hindi can pronounce the language without much difficulty. Moreover, Taiwan will be recruiting many faculty members from India. He said Indian students are smart and good in technology and Taiwanese are good in mathematics.
Mr Ong also disclosed that from 1 March, Indians holding visas to EC, USA, Canada, Australia, Japan and New Zealand have been allowed visa-free entry to Taiwan for 30 days. He said last year, 13,000 visas were issued to Indians, mostly to businessmen. But only 2,000 among them were tourists.
Mr Ong said though there is much scope for business, he is keen on welcoming Indian tourists. He has identified two big Indian travel agents (the names of which he has not disclosed) to chalk out a tri-nation package to attract those tourists going to Hong Kong, Malaysia or Singapore. The first group of such professionals consisting of two tour operators, airlines officials and holiday-makers will travel to Taiwan soon. He said Taiwan and India share a lot of customs in common like respecting elders, etc.
According to him three days will be ideal for a visit to Taipei. Taipei 101, world’s tallest skyscraper since 2003, Shilin Night Market, Lungshan Temple, and National Palace Museum are some of the attractions. The museum is unique as it houses 6.5 lakh pieces of renowned masters of modern Chinese painting and calligraphy. Art works belonging to the late Qing Dynasty and early Republican period (late 19th to early 20th century) are also preserved here. These pieces were brought from Nanking by Chiang Kei Sheck before 1948. Another important part of the exhibition is that it rotates every season (after three months). The museum is built in caves facing a mountain.
The global recession has hit Taiwan too. In order to meet the crisis, the country initiated an economic stimulus package of $2.6 billion. As per the initiative, every citizen was given a consumer voucher worth $109.


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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby vasu_ray » 12 Jul 2009 02:32

good move

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jh ... ndia_Sibal

up: reduces monopoly and perhaps brings in additional qualified teaching staff

down: can become expensive

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby Sanjay M » 24 Jul 2009 05:03

On a related note, science journal publishers have agreed to provide their journals free of charge to poor countries:

http://www.physorg.com/news167584860.html

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby vasu_ray » 26 Jul 2009 01:17

10,000 crores only please to build the university-industry R&D liaison

http://in.reuters.com/article/technolog ... dChannel=0

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby Sanjay M » 27 Jul 2009 09:20

Skilled Immigrant PhDs in US Returning to Home Countries:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... 178761.htm

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby govardhanks » 02 Sep 2009 16:43

(did't know where put this but this is a lot related to this thread..)

one solution which came out of discussion in TIFAC conference in manipal was.

1. Why are not universities allowed to invest in companies and earn profit from them?
If they were allowed they can generate their own income and can sponsor students financially.

2. Except IITs no govt. institutes have links in private enterprises.

While this is totally different in USA where universities do fund some students to take industries and even earn profit from them..

Thus i strongly belive if universities can sustain themselves economically then the whole scenario changes..
plz correct me if i am wrong.

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby Sanjay M » 27 Sep 2009 12:55

CSIR turns 67, thinks about rebranding

New Delhi, Sep 26 (PTI) As it turned 67, the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) is actively considering rebranding itself like the IITs, underlining its strong focus on research.

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby animesharma » 27 Sep 2009 15:52

IITs turn to 'Gandhigiri' to persuade government to increase pay
Instead of holding protests, taking casual leave or going on a strike again, the staff has decided to draw inspiration from the movie Munnabhai MBBS and send a mail to the HRD ministry every day, outlining the work it does, including research, teaching and industry work. Occasional videos will also be part of this exercise.

“We have decided not to accept the latest amendments. We are asking for small things which are minimum for an education institution. We will write again to the HRD ministy to reiterate our needs,” said M Thenmozhi, president, IIT-M Faculty Association. She added that once other institutes held their internal discussions, a joint meeting comprising IITs, IIMs and other institutes would be held over the next few days to decide the course of action.


Well... why don't they give autonomy to institutes of national importance? Many private institute, not recognized by Gov are doing quite good.
Say for instance IIIT banglore/Hyd/Pune is an industry supported institute, and though they charge a lot.. they are really providing good workforce to industry and research.

K Sibbal needs to think fast... I support better pay for education sector.

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Re: Higher Education: How to create more Phds in India?

Postby Sanjay M » 03 Jan 2010 07:47

Yale, Harvard, MIT buy Sibal's plan
Kalpana Pathak / Mumbai January 03, 2010, 0:41 IST

Ivy League colleges – Yale, Harvard, Princeton and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology – have approached the ministry of human resources development to collaborate in the proposed Innovation Universities across the country, official sources said.

These universities are a part of the ministry’s “brain gain” policy to attract talent from all over the world. Human Resources Development Minister Kapil Sibal had last August announced that 14 Innovation Universities will be set up in the country under the 11th Five-year Plan (2007-12).

During his visit to the US in October, Sibal had met senior functionaries of three top universities – Harvard, Yale and MIT – and had discussed the prospects of them setting up Innovation Universities in India in partnership and collaboration with Indian institutions.

Sam Pitroda, the well-known technocrat and the head of the National Knowledge Commission, is learnt to be drafting the details for establishing the Innovation Universities. “Pitroda will soon meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and discuss the matter. An announcement on the details could come up during the Republic Day ceremonies,” said a source close to the development.

The ministry is also looking at public-private partnerships for establishing some of the Innovation Universities. This means that these universities would be autonomous, and outside the purview of the University Grants Commission or the All India Council for Technical Education.


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