Indian Roads Thread

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2011 10:49

TN Highways Deptt acquires instruments to assess road quality

The State Highways Department will soon be deploying two fully automatic, state-of-the-art, imported Road Management and Data Acquisition System (ROMDAS) equipment to evaluate the status of the 56,000-km-long road network in Tamil Nadu, Edappadi K.Palaniswami, Highways Minister, said on Tuesday.

Speaking to reporters after inspecting the road overbridge to replace a level-crossing near Vandalur railway station, the Minister said the ROMDAS equipment would cost Rs. 1.5 crore each. While similar equipment was used by the Highways Department in the past, they had to be operated manually.

The new imported equipment would be launched along with the inauguration of the Vandalur road overbridge, the Minister said. According to engineers who accompanied the Minister, the equipment was purchased with World Bank aid under the Tamil Nadu Road Sector Project. Mounted on a vehicle, the ROMDAS equipment would have a global positioning system, a laser scanner to make accurate predictions about the quality of road surface and other gadgets to make systematic, instant calculations about the works that need to be undertaken.

The primary objective behind deploying the equipment was to prioritise those stretches that needed immediate attention. Capable of covering 100 to 125 kilometres a day, each equipment could cover close to 30,000 kilometres a year. The entire road network of 56,000 kilometres in the State could be easily covered, the engineers said.

Normally, such imported equipment are left to gather dust once they are under repair. Hope such will not be the case.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 28 Dec 2011 10:50

they are an annoyance yes, but generally I found that I can go around them. As long as it is predictable, I can work around it. It is the unpredictable impatience of car/SUV people that spooked me a bit. One guy swerved to the right of me when I was already on the right overtaking a truck. He just bullied me to go closer to the truck on the left lane. Another one squeezed into the gap of me and another lorry I was overtaking, by going to my left, when I was about to go left and let that car go..he would not wait for a second for me to get out of the way.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2011 11:12

Unsafe at any speed - Editorial in The Hindu

In a Twitter post on India's road safety conditions, Atul Gawande, a U.S.-based surgeon, writer, and public health researcher, noted that traffic accident deaths now exceed fatal malaria cases. In fact, there were 125,660 accident fatalities during 2009, the latest year for which data was presented in Parliament a fortnight ago. Yet the country lacks a sustained effort to reduce road-related deaths and disability. The State governments, which enforce motor vehicles rules, and the Centre, which is administratively responsible for road safety through the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways, have clearly failed to respond to the crisis. They must get serious at least with the new goal proposed by the Ministry's working groups: halving the number of deaths by 2020. It is an ambitious target, given the weak state of the determinants of road safety — education, engineering, and enforcement. The working groups have submitted many actionable points, and a prolonged campaign must follow. The best time to make the start is the New Year, which begins with Road Safety Week in January.

One major lacuna, as underscored by these groups, is the absence of a technically competent national statutory agency. The current advisory body, the National Road Safety Council, is simply not equal to the task. Moreover, there would be little value in multiplying such panels at the State and district levels, if they do not have the authority to pursue the safety agenda. It is worth pointing out that the Sundar Committee of the Ministry recommended almost five years ago the formation of a National Road Safety and Traffic Management Board. Legislation to create one has run into rough weather in Parliament as several amendments to the Motor Vehicles Act are pending. What can be done immediately, however, is to strengthen engineering and enforcement. With few exceptions, Indian roads have poor safety engineering. In particular, they do not accommodate the needs of pedestrians, bicycles, and other slow-moving vehicles. This gross neglect was flagged for remedial action by the Sundar Committee, but little action has followed. In the area of enforcement, amendments to the M.V. Act seeking to professionalise enforcement and enhance penalties for serious offences — such as driving under the influence of liquor, rash and negligent driving, and overloading of commercial vehicles — await approval by Parliament. Also, driver-licensing remains the weakest link in road safety. Here, State governments have done little to reform an archaic and scandalously corrupt system. What is needed is a ‘zero tolerance' policy towards everything that makes Indian roads deadly.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Dec 2011 11:57

SSridhar wrote:amendments to the M.V. Act seeking to professionalise enforcement and enhance penalties for serious offences — such as driving under the influence of liquor, rash and negligent driving, ....

If I am not mistaken Driving Under Influence has a stringent* penalty (of INR 3000) and the case goes to the court. The police cannot "compound" the offence. Rash and negligent driving has a penalty of INR 1000 but is compoundable offence. Kerala police have used both IPC and MV Act provisions to literally harass "drunken drivers". Their vehicles are impounded, two people (who pay taxes) have to stand as surety and bail out the drunken driver (or else he remains in the lock up). And then the case goes to the court where the magistrate even have the rights to imprison the driver.

* stringent is relative here. But MV Act has a penalty of INR 100/- for many other offences. So in relative terms 3000 and 1000 are higher.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 15 Jan 2012 16:48

Instead of going OT in the UK dhaaga, I am posting the info here.

Virupaksha wrote:I have no idea where you guys are pulling your facts from.
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2 ... 40_eng.pdf
According to WHO, travel fatalities per 1,00,000 of population
World Average: ~20
Germany: ~7
USA:14
UK:6
Italy:10
India: 9
China:7
Oh and it works out to around 105725 deaths per year in India which is around 290 deaths per day. Not at all saying that we shouldnt improve traffic discipline or anything like that. Whatever India is doing with its traffic and everything else, we seem to be in the right around in the middle of global DEVELOPED countries with respect to the fatalities. So can we please put a stop to this propaganda business?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 224908.cms

NEW DELHI: Road deaths and injuries cost India at least Rs 1 lakh crore per year, Planning Commission member B K Chaturvedi said while inaugurating a regional conference on road safety strategy on Monday organized by International Road Federation (IRF). He said the government aims to reduce road fatalities by 50% by 2020.

India has the dubious distinction of registering maximum number of road deaths annually. The latest report prepared by the transport research wing of road transport and highways ministry said that in 2009, 125,660 people were killed in road accidents and another 515,458 received severe or minor injuries. According to a note jointly prepared recently by the health and the highways ministries, an estimated 1.6 lakh people were killed in road accidents in 2010. However, the report is yet to be released.

Road safety experts feel that the number of accidents and road deaths reported are less than the actual figures due to lack of scientific data collection. "Road accidents are serious issues, but little attention is being paid to this. While annually the nation loses almost 1.5% of its GDP on account of road accidents, we are not even spending 10% of that amount to make our roads safe," said K K Kapila, chairman of IRF.

He pointed out that while the government was pushing construction of 20 km of national highways every day to accelerate infrastructure growth, the focus should also be on making safe roads.

Earlier, Chaturvedi said that while building or designing roads, enough care should be taken to ensure that there are adequate facilities for pedestrian and for local population. He also emphasized on the need to have more safety and trauma centres on highways and in smaller towns and rural areas. {This would be very very useful indeed}

Addressing the gathering, director general of roads R P Indoria said the ministry was taking more steps to make roads safer and to arrest fatalities. These include amendments in the Motor Vehicle Act and road safety audit being made mandatory.

From press release by the MoRTH in Dec 2011 (However the data is 4y old, from 2008).
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=78752

As per the latest issue of the “World Road Statistics” (WRS) 2010, brought out by the International Road Federation, (IRF) Geneva,

United States of America had reported the maximum number of injury accidents at 16,30,000 in the world followed by
Japan at 7,66,147
and India at 4,84,704 for the year 2008.

The highest number of fatalities in road accidents in the world in 2008 was reported by
India (1,19,860)
followed by China (73,484)
and United States of America (37,261).

The analysis of road accident data received from States/UTs reveals that drivers’ fault is the single most important factor responsible for accidents (78%). Some of the other factors responsible for road accidents are as under:
Fault of cyclist 1.2%
Fault of pedestrian 2.7%
Defect in road conditions 1.2%
Defect in condition of motor vehicle 1.7%
Weather condition 1%
All other causes* 14.2%
Includes fault of driver of other vehicles, fault of passengers, poor light condition, falling of boulders, neglect of civic bodies, stray animals , other causes & causes not known.

BTW, I am unable to find 399% reliable data for the number of vehicles on Indian roads...estimates range from 72 million to 90 million.
The US has about 250 million vehicles IIRC.

Neither the overall population nor the vehicle population are perfect for determing the fatality rate, but the vehicle population is a better indicator since if you're not in a vehicle, you're unlikely to get killed on the road and get counted under the statistics.

Also, I am guesstimating that the distance travelled per person in the US would be far higher than that in india, considering their car-centric culture (long daily commutes to work/shopping) and lack of public transport, especially between cities.

The non-fatal accident statistics are also really nasty....~half a million! Many of these would 'serious' accidents too..often resulting in life-changing disabilities.
This accident numbers are 'interesting' ~ 500K non-fatal vs 100k fatal compared to Khan that as a staggering 1.6 mill accidents but "only" 37k fatalities, i suppose due to safer cars/trucks/buses in Khan.

Anyway, add more data if you find. That WHO pdf was very informative indeed; I wish I could find a newer version.

-----
My aunt was one data point in the statistics last year as her scooter got hit by an oiseaule making an illegal turn in BLR.
After emergency head surgery, a long stay in the ICU, months of physiotherapy, months unable to go to the office, plenty of $$ etc later, the left side of her face is still paralyzed and occasionally she has trouble standing/moving.

My uncle is financially well-off, and was able to afford the treatment
But if some unlucky soul who cannot afford such treatment gets injured in a major accident, his/her life is as good as over.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 15 Jan 2012 16:52

Lalmohan wrote:one of the reasons RTA fatalities in India are low-ish is that traffic speeds are still relatively low. once the quality of roads improves, the fatalities will shoot up as average speeds rise, and then hopefully stabilise at a lower level once people figure out that current practices are unsafe. in terms of dents and scratches and minor collisions, India must be one of the highest

The graph for fatalities shows a decreasing trend in Khan and other developed countries, but a 'nice' increasing trend for India.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 15 Jan 2012 16:57

Purush ji,

crashes due to deers on the highway is quite common in the US. That is where the expression "deer in the headlights" comes from.

PS: Some graphs in the WHO pdf are fatalies per thousand and the other is total fatalities.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Jan 2012 23:39

Purush wrote: Neither the overall population nor the vehicle population are perfect for determing the fatality rate, but the vehicle population is a better indicator since if you're not in a vehicle, you're unlikely to get killed on the road and get counted under the statistics.

The above is a good example of using a western mindset for Indian issues.

Most people who get killed on the roads are pedestrians, and two-wheelers, including cycles.

Most reasons for accidents are two wheelers.

And I know its not Purush's quote but the below is most rofl statement ever that was posted

drivers’ fault is the single most important factor responsible for accidents (78%).

In India its always drivers fault. Including when milkmen dressed in dark kambal (blankets) crossing the road at 5 am on a foggy winter morning loaded with many cans hit a two wheeler and break a leg.

I am increasingly convinced that every single thing that comes from western way on analyzing India is sheer waste of time.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 Jan 2012 07:08

Ok. But none of those stats are untrue. And prime reason for those stats are sheer assholery of the highest order on the lines of "i can do whatever i want, this is not your road". There is no looking through tinted glasses/analysing through western view here. Our numbers are astronomical compared to numbers from other countries on a per 1000 basis. And we dont get these numbers due to numbers alone but due to lack of any kind of driving discipline. There is no other way to look at it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jan 2012 07:53

SSridhar wrote:Spot the violations !

- talk the walking on the highway.
- the sign board asking to go-slow
- dangerous painted road dividers
- trees too close to the road, and shadows falling on the road to reduce visibility
- rocks on the road
- electricity lines are exposed
- no police with danda collecting mamool
- sky is blue

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Jan 2012 08:49

IIRC something like 60% of all fatalities in cities are pedestrians. Even in rural areas 40%+ are pedestrians. Vehicles are getting bigger and faster but we are not doing enough to separate pedestrians from vehicles. In Chennai you can see hulking big 20 ton buses and trucks driving 2 feet from the mass of pedestrian humanity. One slip, one mis-step, one moment of carelessness and you are toast.

This indicates a lack of side walks and proper traffic management. Also a lack of mass transit options and far too much walking on too little road.

Look at that picture above. Where exactly does the pedestrian, who is still 80% of our road traffic go.

In actual accidents per vehicle number our accident rate is dropping but the addition of new vehicles is so high that fatality rate keeps rising. While India driving techniques are terrible I don't think that is the dominant reason for our dreadful statistics. While it is cute to think that if the truck were loaded properly fewer people would be killed, this does not show up in the traffic reports. Less than 2% is due to vehicle problems. A properly loaded truck with all other road issues taken care off will continue to kill just as many people on that road.

Mostly pedestrians.
--------------------------------------

BTW 30+ years ago there was a tragic case of a bus directly in front of us on the Ooty/Metupalayam road that swerved to avoid a monkey (thought to bring bad punniyam), and went over the edge killing some 40-50 passengers. The image of that bus heading over the edge is burned into my mind. It happened so slowly, reality always seems so slow, that several passengers could easily have jumped out but they never did. That stretch was known for monkey swerving accidents.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 10:40

Virupaksha wrote:Purush ji,

crashes due to deers on the highway is quite common in the US. That is where the expression "deer in the headlights" comes from.

PS: Some graphs in the WHO pdf are fatalies per thousand and the other is total fatalities.

Saar, I know that deer accidents on the highways or cities bordering large forested areas are quite common in the US, but no so much in other city areas.
In fact, apparently, it contributes a to a massive 1 million accidents a year, but "only" 200 deaths.

It would be very difficult to prevent or control the ingress of wild animals into roads outside the cities; this is true anywhere in the world, including India. No doubt about it. But we should minimize animal related accidents in our cities where we can, however possible.

That said, apparently, the Americans are at least trying to do something about it...even if it is "only" 200 killed every year.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 51019604/1

The crash underscored an ongoing problem: The most dangerous animal in North America isn't the bear or the shark, but may well be the deer, and the deadliest time of year is fall. On average, more collisions between cars and deer occur in November than in any other month, according to State Farm Insurance.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, there are about 1 million car accidents with deer each year that kill 200 Americans, cause more than 10,000 personal injuries, and result in $1 billion in vehicle damage.

For the fifth year in a row, West Virginia tops the list of states where a driver is most likely to run into a deer, State Farm reports. The other states in the top 10 are Iowa, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Montana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota and Wyoming.

State Farm reports that the number of deer/car collisions has actually decreased the past three years, likely because of the economy and people driving fewer miles.

However, over the five-year period 2005-09, 1,017 people died in vehicle-animal collisions, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. In a 2004 study, IIHS found that 60% of people who died in such crashes in automobiles were not wearing seat belts.

Found and his team of scientists from the University of Alberta have some potentially good news: A new study led by Found and published in September reported that when warning signs are placed specifically in a targeted location where deer are known to cross, they can reduce collisions by 34%.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 10:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:IIRC something like 60% of all fatalities in cities are pedestrians. Even in rural areas 40%+ are pedestrians. Vehicles are getting bigger and faster but we are not doing enough to separate pedestrians from vehicles. In Chennai you can see hulking big 20 ton buses and trucks driving 2 feet from the mass of pedestrian humanity. One slip, one mis-step, one moment of carelessness and you are toast.

Theo, according to that WHO report which uses data collected by the GoI, 13% of all RTA fatalities are pedestrians.
27% are motorized 2-wheelers
4% are cyclists
15% are passenger cars and taxis
29% are 'other'. I suspect this includes buses, vans and trucks(?)
11% are unspecified.

This data is a bit outdated (from 2008) and I don't know how the numbers have changed in the last 4 years.

I fully agree that separation of pedestrian traffic and vehicular traffic is an absolute must. That will decrease accidents significantly because (a) pedestrians won't get hit by vehicles (b) a major source of distraction/hazard for the drivers is removed.

------------
I will check back later. Got to get back to work now.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 16 Jan 2012 10:58

Cross Posted from the UK thread

OT but here it is. Youtube or Another

Thats Youtube videos of how a deer hit happens. In those videos they were atleast driving during the day time. I was driving at night around 1 AM on an interstate at 70MPH. So no way you can do anything to salvage the situation because you have less than a second to react. And in less than a second you cannot change the direction and speed of the car. In my accident the deer was torn asunder with one half on my wind shield and the other half under the tire. No one can do anything about this. It happens a lot on highways. And yes the authorities do everything that can be done short of mass killings. They do scientific studies about the deer population and their growth rate. And during the season enough recreational hunting permits are granted to citizens who hunt them for meat, head and skin etc. Also there are road signs indicating deer prone areas.

But the major distinction here is America has lots of forest cover every where and they also have excellent road connectivity through them so that they can connect cities with each other. In places like these away from cities deer hits happen during the season when their population is high and they are moving across. It is different from what we are discussing, that of bovine presence on city roads among major population centers.

Edited Later: As Victor above said. The major difference is Domesticated vs Wild. This is what happens on Bangalore roads.(Youtube).
Most of these cows that are left to roam are done so because the herder feels its cost effective to let the cattle forage rather than buy cattle feed(May be out of poverty).

Shiv Wrote

Nonsense. You build a highway through a forest and allow cars to run though at 70 mph and then you say nothing can be done about it. It's just your apologetic attitude to what sounds profoundly stupid to me just as cows on the road sound profoundly stupid to you. Why can't you accept my excuses that are as stupid as yours? I'll answer that. You think your view is morally right. That's all.

And this is the Indo-UK thread where you bring up whines about India because of an accident you had in the US where they have their own stupid excuses for such accidents. Your intent is more to have a whine about India than anything else - seeing how you bring in inane excuses and apologies and the Kasab straw man in the middle of all that. I am amazed at the grievances you are regurgitating. You have one huge chip on the shoulder.

You hit a deer on a highway at 70 mph in the US so cows on Indian roads are bad, and that is how Kasab got in. I love it.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 11:27

Purush wrote: Theo, according to that WHO report which uses data collected by the GoI, .

WHO reports are junk.

Prasad wrote:And we dont get these numbers due to numbers alone but due to lack of any kind of driving discipline. There is no other way to look at it.

I am sorry, that is incorrect. Driving discipline has nothing to do with it.

Theo has a much better understanding of what actually happens on the ground it seems.

Theo wrote:. In Chennai you can see hulking big 20 ton buses and trucks driving 2 feet from the mass of pedestrian humanity. One slip, one mis-step, one moment of carelessness and you are toast. This indicates a lack of side walks and proper traffic management. Also a lack of mass transit options and far too much walking on too little road.

I can bet my last penny that if you take western driving habits and put them in Indian conditions (high volume mixed traffic) -- Accident rate will go up 400%.

Its Indian driving habits which still let things work in a massively complex system.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 16 Jan 2012 11:36

Nonsense. You build a highway through a forest and allow cars to run though at 70 mph and then you say nothing can be done about it

We cannot confuse bovine presence on Indian city roads with "building highways through forests" etc. When I say forests its mostly tree cover in US with not much wild life. They still have large tree cover inspite of massive consumption because of low population-huge country. And going at 70 MPH is standard legal speed limit on highways for safe driving and needed to travel hundreds of miles in a single go in a reasonable amount of time.

They kill deer because they consider them "pests" that destroy public property when their numbers are out of control. The main point is "legal hunting only to maintain ecological balance" because they dont have a natural predator.

Its not as if we have been successfully dealing with human/wild-life/forest problems ourselves. American deer problems are drop in the ocean before our wildlife/forest issues. We have huge rural population that invariably encroaches upon wild life habitat(no other go for the people). Because of the poaching, lack of awareness, funding we are also loosing our rich and diverse wild life.

I may or may not have a "massive chip on the shoulder"... but whats wrong is wrong. I am not too sensitive to and feel the need to respond if a Racist Brit says something about our issues. I am more concerned about the message than the messenger and his motives.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 11:43

A far more meaningful research -- by and Indian who knows India.

Dinesh MOHAN
Volvo Chair Professor, Transportation Research and Injury Prevention Programme, Indian Institute of Technology Delhi, New Delhi, India

http://www.iatss.or.jp/pdf/research/33/33-1-08.pdf

Official road traffic crash data do not include fatalities
by road user category in India. Such data are only
available from a few cities and research studies done on
selected locations on rural highways. Table 4 shows traffic
fatalities by category of road users in Delhi (capital
city of India) and selected locations on national highways4,6.
These data show that car occupants were a small
proportion of the total fatalities, 3% in Delhi and 15% on
rural highways. Vulnerable road users (pedestrians, bicyclists,
and motorized two-wheeler riders) accounted for
84% of deaths in Delhi and 67% on highways. This pattern
is very different from that obtained in all high-income
countries.

The Indian way -- how come the children survive? A lesson for the "India is so screwed onlee crowd"

Children aged 14 years and
younger comprise only 6% of the fatalities, though their
share in the population is 32%. The proportion of fatalities
in the age groups 15-29 and greater than 60 years is similar to their representation in the population, but the
middle-age groups 30-44 and 45-59 are over represented
by about 70%. The low representation of children (2 fatalities
per 100,000 persons) is curious because a significant
number of children walk and bicycle to school unescorted,
both in urban and rural areas. Though the exposure
numbers for India are not available, children’s presence
on the road unsupervised is not insignificant. The reasons
for the low involvement rate of children needs to be investigated.

Better roads != more traffic safety, hain-ji another Indian peculiarity

The study reported
that trucks were the striking party in 65% of fatal
crashes. Other studies report that majority of the crashes
involved buses, 25% of the victims were pedestrians,
rear-end crashes comprised 40% of total crashes and that
crashes were increasing at a rate of 3.9% per year10-13. A
study of road traffic crashes on a National Highway in the
southern state of Kerala reported that heavy vehicles had
a high involvement, and pedestrians and cyclists were
28% of the victims14. The most important finding of this study is that the fatality rate per volume is more than
three times higher on the four-lane section than on twolane
sections. The construction of four-lane divided highways
(without access control) does not seem to have reduced
fatality rates, and vulnerable road users still account
for a large proportion of fatalities There is a clear case for
redesign of intercity roads with separation of slow and
fast modes. The need of road users on local short distance
trips will have to be accounted for. Solutions for many of
these issues are not readily available and research studies
are necessary for the evolution of new designs.

And oh look at the solutions offered.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 11:45

Charlie wrote:I am more concerned about the message than the messenger and his motives.

You are not, you are jumping when the Britturd says jump. You may not realize it, but other external observers (who are not you) can

If you were concerned about the message, you would know the basics of issue involved. -- Which I am sorry to say, you dont.

niran · Post by **niran** » 16 Jan 2012 12:24

Charlie wrote:

They kill deer because they consider them "pests" that destroy public property when their numbers are out of control. The main point is "legal hunting only to maintain ecological balance" because they dont have a natural predator.

Its not as if we have been successfully dealing with human/wild-life/forest problems ourselves. American deer problems are drop in the ocean before our wildlife/forest issues. We have huge rural population that invariably encroaches upon wild life habitat(no other go for the people). Because of the poaching, lack of awareness, funding we are also loosing our rich and diverse wild life.

first! pray, do explain what this Deer hunting and Bovine lifestyle has got to do in Roads & Traffic thread?
second the bolder portion, so? every one eliminate pests, in Yamerika deer is pest so do eliminate them, in India Cows are not a Pest so no one eliminate them.

non bold portion: on what definition do you say so? this "we" used twice is who? you? or
Yamerikan deer? or Cows.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 12:53

niran wrote: second the bolder portion, so? every one eliminate pests, in Yamerika deer is pest so do eliminate them, in India Cows are not a Pest so no one eliminate them.

Maulana Niran, I don't think he is calling for the elimination of cows, just moving them away from city roads to sequestered areas outside the city for their benefit as well as the benefit of humans.

Butchering/elimination of cows is abhorrent, and should not be supported at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless animals pose a direct threat to human safety, they should not be harmed. Since I am mostly vegetarian (95%..the other 5% I cannot resist seafood Tom Yum soup

) I would 399% support the complete ban on slaughter of all animals in India. It is a humane step.

niran · Post by **niran** » 16 Jan 2012 13:18

maulana Purush, later on i read the thread where it came from, and it seems Charlie baba
has had a scalpel injury from maulana Shiv-bin-khujli, and he did tried == with cows on Indian roads with deer on Yamerika, but the baba forgot one thing "driving talent" moi been driving in India's cow belt since was 13 years old, and never ever hit any 4 legged animal let alone
a Cow, why? coz moi have talent(wah! it feels mucho great boasting) those Yammeriki hitting
Deers are no good, they should learn driving in Indian cities.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 13:20

Charlie wrote:I am more concerned about the message than the messenger and his motives.

See, this road safety issue is not something new that just popped up when it was highlighted by the Top Gear clowns.
It has been a problem for very long.
This 'issue' has been raised by and discussed on this thread as well as in the GDF by INDIANS ( well before $@#* Brits made a comment in a TV program).

This is something that is conveniently and selectively ignored by some posters. Why?

And those who hold any opposing view points are quickly labeled as 'unIndic' traitors/western stooges.

These posters are best left on the Ignore list because they contribute nothing of substance to the discussion.

---------------------------
Anyway, on to more useful discussions:

Aditya_V wrote:
I think in these statistics one class of Vehicles is missing, 2 Wheelers. No way India has only 74 million Vehicles when you add 2 wheelers in the mix as quoted by Jermy Clarkson.

As per Road accident Stats released in TN. the largest no of accident fatalities are from two wheelers hitting pedestrians.

BTW: Having to suffer daily from the road sense of my fellow citizens, I do not justify the callous attitude of many of them.

Note: Forget the TG clowns. They're consigned to the dustbin. Let's not discuss TG on this thread.

For statistics, this GoI press release from Nov 2010 says that there are 89, 618,000 registered vehicles on the roads.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=66830

As per the latest data available, India has Eight Crore Ninety Six Lakhs Eighteen Thousand (8, 96 18,000) registered vehicles in the country as on 31st March,2006.

While Maharashtra has the maximum number of registered motor vehicles (1,09,66,000) in the country, Lakshadweep has only 6000 registered motor Vehicles. Maharashtra is followed by Tamil Nadu (1,00,54,000), Gujarat (86,22,000), Uttar Pradesh ( 79,89,000), and Andhra Pradesh (72,18,000).

Registration, regulation and control of motor vehicles falls under the purview of States/UTs. However, the States/UTs were earlier advised by the Ministry to frame policies to discourage ownership of multiple vehicles through suitable fiscal disincentives.

This information was provided by Shri Mahadeo Singh Khandela, Minister of State for Road Transport and Highways in reply to an unstarred question in the Lok Sabha today

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 13:38

niran wrote: moi been driving in India's cow belt since was 13 years old, .

Well that is well below legal age limit for driving and highlights the problems faced by Cows in India.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 13:56

abhishek_sharma wrote: Well, a farm is a confined place. I don't think we have the right to force animals to do whatever we please. We are already doing so. Maybe we should control our urge to believe that all resources of this planet belongs to our baap and we have the right to pontificate on what other species should and shouldn't do.

Saar, cow is a domesticated animal already not a wild species. Raising it in a proper environment (I am not saying we should lock them up in cells!!) with sufficient space and other amenities outside the city would be better for the animal, no?

You still haven't answered my question about whether the cow roaming around in the city is good for the cow itself?
Let me reiterate:
1) What's it going to eat in the city?
2) What is it going to drink?
3) Where is it going to rest?
4) How is it going to avoid traffic/noise pollution/dangerous objects

Considering the answers to the above, does the cow fare BETTER in a city compared to a safe and controlled environment outside the city?

Also what about stray dogs biting toddlers?
What is more important to you - the safety and well being of a toddler/senior citizen or the 'right' of a stray dog to do whatever the *&%$ it wants?

How about reducing pollution in cities? hain?

First of all, we have the chutzpah to pollute the environment, which affects other species. And then, we enforce more conditions on animals to protect them from its consequences. sahi hai.

We are on the same page here. Pollution must be reduced. The quality of life for city dwellers must be improved. Isn't that what we are all supporting?

Relocating cows from the city streets is one of the steps.

There are several other steps involving better roads, better sanitation, better city planning, better public transport instead of private, low pollution vehicles, relocation of factories away from residential/commercial areas etc. Any sane poster will support these steps.

I'll let you in on a 'secret'. For 40+ years until the early 2000s, my grandfather's family always owned 3-4 cows and raised them on our ancestral land in a town near Thrissur. The land/house was not smack in the middle of the city, but on the periphery beside one of the main roads. There was heavy traffic on the road.

The cows were given royal status as most Brahmin households do to cows. The cows were cleaned properly, were regularly checked by the local vet who was a family friend, they had spacious land for roaming, clean drinking water, shady trees for resting under etc. In short they were happy, contented cows.

I strongly suspect they wouldn't have been so happy if they were left to fend for themselves on the hot baking roads, dodging the genocidal KSRTC buses, without access to clean food and water.

Unfortunately, a few years after my grandfather passed away in 2000, the extended family decided to move into individual houses; the cows were sold to a neighbour (my grandmother was in tears! but atleast the neighbours looked after the cows properly) and the cowshed was converted into a storage shed

Ya'Allah...why did you allow the creation of Salman Taseer University of Higher-order lahori Logic.

There is a consensus on the terms and conditions for ownership of property and value of labor among human beings (not animals). We just displaced animals from where they used to live. We expect them to follow rules made by us which are overwhelmingly in our favor.

[/quote]

But..but.. these terms and conditions are artificial constructs by humans, not in tune with the natural free-for-all outlook for humans + animals.

Mian, I was just messing with you, don't reply to this part...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 14:06

The hyperventilation about cows is simply a western influence.

In India, of the traffic issues. Cows are the least.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 14:27

Digging for info on the GoI websites is quite interesting...there are a lot of useful tidbits on the PIB site as official press releases.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/efeatures.aspx?relid=78156

In the automotive sector parlance, passive safety features refer to systems designed to minimise injury to the occupants in the event of a crash as against active safety systems that help drivers avoid accidents. It is important to equip a vehicle with both active and passive safety features.

The Automotive Industry in India has been one of the key drivers of economic growth, with a CAGR of over 15% during the last 7 years. In 2010-11, the total turnover of the Industry stood at USD 73 Billion(Rs. 3,27,300 cr.) and its contribution to the Manufacturing GDP and the excise duty was 22% and 21% respectively. Today, India is the largest manufacturer of tractors, second largest manufacturer of two wheelers, 5th largest manufacturer of commercial vehicles and is an emerging global automotive hub. The Indian automotive sector is now widely recognized for its enormous potential to be a growth engine and propel the country on a high growth path.

While the growth story, both in retrospect and prospect, sounds impressive and exciting, it also poses several areas of concern and challenges. Increasing urbanization and motorization, rapid development of road infrastructure, introduction of faster vehicles and the changing driving pattern have brought to the fore the problem of increasing number of injuries and mortalities resulting from road traffic accidents. As per an estimate, about 125,000 people die and 450,000 get injured in India every year due to Road Traffic accidents.

Road Traffic Accident which used to be the tenth among the top ten causes of mortality in the country two decades back, is projected to occupy the fifth position in the list of major killers in the year 2020. Some of the factors that increase the risk of road crashes in India are unsafe traffic environment, poor road infrastructure, increasing number of motorized vehicles, lack of safety engineering measures and unsafe driving behaviour. Improving prevention and mitigation of road traffic incidents in a low-income country like India will help to better use its scarce resources.

Road Safety is a multi-sectoral and multi-dimensional issue encompassing the development and management of road infrastructure, design of safer vehicles, legislation and law enforcement, mobility planning, urban land use planning etc. In other words, its ambit spans engineering aspects of both roads and vehicles on one hand and the provision of post crash healthcare on the other.

World over, Nations have initiated various measures towards their commitment to check fatalities due to road accidents by way of improvement of roads, vehicle design, strengthening of active and passive safety systems and campaigns regarding safe driving.

Under the National Automotive Testing and R&D Infrastructure Project (NATRiP), three crash labs are being set up where vehicles will be tested for their crash worthiness. With the commissioning of these crash labs by 2012, India will be equipped to design, develop and certify vehicles which conform to newly evolving safety standards. Notification for new crash regulations are under formulation. Crash test ratings will also generate awareness among the buyers to make informed decision on buying a vehicle keeping in view the safety features of the vehicle. {Excellent step}

It is now required to incorporate latest technologies and safety regulations to ensure reduction of road traffic injuries through passive safety measures in particular. The emphasis is to make Indian roads much safer.

BTW, while it is all easy to resort to righteous indignation, trivialization of the numbers, statistical massaging, scoring internet debate brownie points, etc to promote one's agenda either way, please remember one thing: ~160,000 Indians died a miserable death on the roads last year. 500,000 more Indians were injured, many with permanent disabilities.

These are fellow citizens who died.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment: 100,000-160,000 is the population of a small town. Wiped out every year for the past few years.

If this is 'not a problem', then nothing in India is a problem!
We are all living in paradise onlee!!

Don't forget this in the rush to preserve H&D and defend the 'Indic-soop-e-riority' of the current urban/road situation.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 14:47

Purush wrote: Let those numbers sink in for a moment: 100,000-160,000 is the population of a small town. Wiped out every year for the past few years.

Don't forget this in the rush to preserve H&D and defend the 'Indic-soop-e-riority' of the current urban/road situation.

No boss, the issue here is not H&D. You just dont get it that its not about H&D.

It is about identitfying and solving the real problems.

And I dont think any Indian living in India is unaware of the real issues -- its just that some Indians wake up only after BBC says "holy cows" and they go into paroxysms of "cows on the road, OMG OMG. Bad traffic OMG OMG" --

I posted ONE very scholarly study by a IIT prof. As expected. ZERO reaction.

After all One Indian making a lot of prosaic sense about India -- where is the thrill of self flagellation on firangi criticism hain jee. After all we need to do a "nanga naach" (naked dance) to show how much we are ahead of the unwashed hordes that compose of India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jan 2012 15:06

Car Crashes Kill 40,000 in U.S. Every Year
Extrapolating to a population of 1.17 billion that is about 160,000 a year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_R ... at_Britain
UK has 2000 deaths a year. Extrapolating to a population of 1 billion that is about 40,000 per year

http://www.car-accidents.com/country-ca ... crash.html

The WHO study reported that the actual number of fatalities on China's roads is more than twice the offical figure or about 250,000 killed each year. This study estimates that 45,000 people are injured and 680 killed on China's roads each day

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jan 2012 15:11

UK man does not buy meat. Lives on roadkill

Road kill man eats rat stew and hedgehog casserole

Rat stew, fox cub fricassee, hedgehog casserole – no it's not a medieval banquet, they're the main courses at Jonathan McGowan's roadkill dinner parties.

The 41-year-old trawls the streets near his home looking for fresh, pre-minced remains of small mammals, also including badgers, snakes and mice.
Rat stew is the order of the day for Jonathan McGowan Rat stew is the order of the day for Jonathan McGowan

After scraping them off the Tarmac, he cooks the rubber-tinged meat with ingredients such as garlic, onions and sultanas to serve up dishes including tawny owl tikka masala and heron bolognese to unwitting guests.

"I go out as often as I can to pick up the night's victims," the taxidermist said.

"Whenever I have friends round, I serve up dinner and they say, ;Ooh that's lovely, what is it?' and I tell them.

UK roadkill chart

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jan 2012 15:30

Shiv,

I have posted all those figures from WHO showing that Indian traffic was in tune with the developed countries traffic. and Purush himself reposted all those figures in this thread,....

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 15:33

Virupaksha wrote:Shiv,

I have posted all those figures from WHO showing that Indian traffic was in tune with the developed countries traffic. and Purush himself reposted all those figures in this thread,....

Well Purush claims that road victims are only those who are in a vehicle

(read registered vehicles onlee

) thus only the numbers of vehicles is a suitable indicator of road use.

In Purush's world, Bicylces are kept away from all the roads, for humanistic purposes, just like cows, pedestrians, tractor trolleys, tuk-tuks and modified people carriers. Un registered low engine cc bikes etc. Same for ox-carts, camel carts, and donkey carts.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 16:39

Doc, China having 2x the reported accident rate is almost certainly true.

As usual the cheenis would have fudged the numbers to show 'improvement' for 'saving face' especially when compared with India, just like they do with their economic data.
They had very high fatality rates even just a few years ago, it is very unlikely that they miraculously improved overnight unless some chipanda statistician simply started making up numbers.

Virupaksha ji, I have found the 2010 MoRTH report; it's on their website. Will go through it and post later as I have to leave the office now.
GoI is awesome in so many ways...they meticulously collect and keep so much data.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jan 2012 17:24

Purush wrote: GoI is awesome in so many ways...they meticulously collect and keep so much data.

How does this square with the IITian profs statement that we need to improve the data collection to come up with target solution?

Oh I am sorry, I am letting facts get in the way of unfounded opinion.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 16 Jan 2012 21:07

Apologies in advance for the formatting. It was a quick copy-paste job.

Folks, See some data from the 2010 Road Safety report published by the Min. of Road Transport and Highways, India.
You can download the pdf from here
http://morth.nic.in/showfile.asp?lid=761

Virupaksha ji, WRT to the previous discussion on whether fatalities per population or fatalities per (# of)
vehicles should be used, and if the fatalities per vehicle-km might be a 'better' indicator. Unfortunately,
this report doesn't include that data.

It does include fatalities per road length interestingly.

Some excerpts from the report.

Motor vehicle population has grown at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 10 per
cent 2000-2009, during fueled by a rising tide of motorization. Concomitantly, traffic risk and
exposure have grown. During the year 2010, there were around 5 lakh road accidents, which
resulted in deaths of 134,513 people and injured more than 5 lakh persons in India. These
numbers translate into 1 road accident every minute, and 1 road accident death every four
minutes.

The loss to the Indian economy due to fatalities and accident injuries estimated at 3% of
GDP in 1999-2000 is particularly severe as 53.1% of road accident victims were in the age group
of 25 to 65 years in 2010, with pedestrians, bicyclists and two-wheelers, who comprise the most
unprotected road users, accounting for around 40% of all fatalities.

 The number of total accidents reported in 2010 was 499,628. After a moderate increase
of 0.35% during 2009, the number of accidents reported during 2010 showed a growth of
2.72 % as compared with accidents reported in the year 2009.
 The number of persons killed increased by 7 per cent during 2010 in comparison to 4.8
per cent during 2009.
 The number of persons injured which had recorded a decline of 1.5 per cent during 2009,
increased by 2.3 per cent during 2010.
 The total number of road accidents, injuries and deaths increased at CAGR of 2.5%, 2.8%
and 5.5%, respectively, between the years 2000 and 2010.

During 2010, 499,628 road accidents were reported by all States/ Union Territories (UTs)
(Chart 1). Of these, about 23.9% (119,558) were fatal accidents. The number of persons killed
in road accidents was 134,513, i.e. an average of one fatality per 3.7 accidents. {1.12 people killed per 'fatal accident'?}

The proportion
of fatal accidents in total road accidents has consistently increased since 2001 from 17.6% to
23.9% in 2010 (Table 2). The severity of road accidents, measured in terms of persons killed per
100 accidents, has also increased from 19.9 in 2001 to 26.9 in 2010.

Number of accidents per lakh population increased from 21.2 in 1970 to 22.8 in 1980,
followed by a sharp increase to 33.8 in 1990. Between 1995 and 2005, the figures
fluctuated in the range of 38 to 40; moving above 42 in recent years (2007 and 2008); a
slight dip to 41.9 in 2009, followed by a rise to 42.5 in 2010. Between 1970 and 2010,
there was an increase of more than 100% (Chart 2).

A significant decline {AoA!}in the number of accidents per ten thousand motor vehicles is
discernible from 814 in 1970, 339 in 1980, 148 in 1990, 80 in 2000 and further to 42 in
2009 i.e. decline of almost 95 % since 1970 (Chart 3).

The trend in the number of accidents per ten thousand kilometres of the road length
shows that the number of accidents have increased over the last few decades, from 960 in
1970 to 1,027 in 1980; peaked to 1,424 in 1990; but declined thereafter, fluctuating
within a band of 1,100 to 1,200 per ten thousand kilometres. For the latest year 2008, the
figure stood at 1,179 (Chart 4).

Part-II

There has been more than three-fold increase in the number of persons injured per lakh of
population from 13 in 1970 to 44.8 in 2010 (Chart 5). Similarly, persons killed per lakh
of population jumped four-fold from 2.7 in 1970 to 11.4 in 2010 (Chart 6).

Exposure of
population to road accidents leading to deaths and injuries largely depends on the amount
of travel undertaken, defined as the number of trips, the distance travelled, or time in the
road environment, number of motor vehicles and the amount of motorized traffic, etc.
These factors are associated with development and income levels.

In high income
countries, risk of road accidents arising out of these factors have been reduced through
effective road safety engineering, traffic management, enforcement of traffic laws and the
severity of penalties for infringement.

As regards number of persons injured and killed per 10,000 vehicles the decline has been
dramatic. {AoA!} To some extent, the decline in this parameter has been brought about by
improvements in vehicle crashworthiness and occupant protection.

The number of
persons injured per 10,000 vehicles has plummeted from 500 in 1970 to about 45 in 2009
(Chart 7). It is noteworthy that this parameter has consistently declined since 1996
despite sustained high growth in vehicle population. Similarly, the number of persons
killed per 10,000 vehicles in the country has also fallen from about 104 in 1970 to less
than 11 in 2009 (Chart . However, injuries and deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles as a
parameter has a limitation as it does not capture road related accidents and deaths
connected with non-motorized forms of transport which are significant in rural areas. {Which brings us back to the question: what is a reasonably good metric?}

The number of persons injured and killed per ten thousand kilometres of road length has
more than doubled since 1970. Modern road systems are largely designed for the motor
vehicles exposing vulnerable road users to greater risk of accidents.
In developing
countries, lack of foot-paths, service lanes, cycle tracks, traffic calming measures to
reduce speed where non motorized mode of transport blend with motorized traffic,
increases the risk of accidents and its severity. These factors have contributed towards
increase in road related accidents, injuries and deaths in relation to rise in terms of road
length. High-income countries have made progress in providing facilities for pedestrians
and cyclists alongwith speed reduction schemes, thereby weakening the nexus between
road accidents, injuries and deaths with expansion in road network.

The numbers of
persons injured per ten thousand kilometres of road length have risen from 590 in 1970 to
1,273 in 2008 (Chart 9); similarly persons killed per ten thousand kilometres of road
length more than doubled from 122 in 1970 to 292 in 2008 (Chart 10). However, both
these parameters have witnessed ups and downs over the last decade.

A few more charts. Please refer to the pdf for detailed info.

Occupants of (i) two-wheelers, (ii) passenger cars and taxis, (iii) trucks and (iv) buses accounted
for 26.2%, 15.5%, 13.3% and 8.3%, respectively, of total road fatalities.

Bicycle riders (4.6%)
and pedestrians (8.7%) are the most unprotected road users and have to share scarce road space
with motorized vehicles of different engine power and speed resulting in serious conflicts within
traffic flows.

The high socio-economic cost of the injuries and fatalities, occurring due to road
accidents, and the need for effective policies for curbing road accidents make it imperative to
study the causes of road accidents.

The analysis of road accidents in terms of causal factors
reveals that drivers’ fault is the single most important factor responsible for accidents, fatalities
and injuries. Drivers’ fault accounted for 78.0 % (389,885 accidents) of total accidents; 74.6 %
(100,319) of the total number of persons killed and 79.8 % (420,823) of the total number of
persons injured in road accidents during 2010 (Chart 22).

The fault of the cyclists and that of the
pedestrians appears to be of a marginal consequence accounting for a share of 1.2 % and 2.7 %,
respectively in road accidents during 2010. Similarly, cyclists and pedestrians were responsible
for about 1.3 % and 2.6 %, respectively, of total number of persons killed in road accidents.
Defects in the motor vehicles caused 1.7 % of road accidents and 2.3 % of fatalities in road
accidents

This data which compares fatalities per 100,000 of the population confirms what Virupaksha posted yesterday.

Cross country comparisons of incidence of road accident related deaths and injury
accidents per lakh persons as per World Road Statistics 2010 (published by International Road
Federation, Geneva) showed lower incidence of both the parameters for India in comparison to
many developed and developing countries.

The number of road accident deaths per lakh of
population at 10.8 in India
was much lower compared with 12.08 in the Republic of Korea,
12.25 in USA and the Russian Federation (21.06) (Chart 23).

The highest number of deaths per lakh of population was reported for Anguilla (31.25) in 2007, followed closely by South Africa (31.18)in 2007.
For the year 2008, Malaysia reported the highest figure of 24.16 and the Philippines
reported the lowest number of deaths per lakh population at 1.21 in 2008.

Countries which showed lower persons killed per 100,000 population were Japan (4.04), United Kingdom (4.13), Germany (5.45) and China (5.55) {Cheeni stats are likely to be false}

Will post more tomorrow as time permits.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jan 2012 01:39

Good posts Purush ji.

For those that claim that this disgust on Indian road accidents came about just due to the BBC episode..read the posts in November on this very thread.

It is cruel to leave cows on road tarmacs.

Fact is Indian road habits are disgusting. Because they are rooted in ignorance of consequence and not motor skills.

Those that equate US and Indian death rates by extrapolating populations are making very basic analytical errors..not worth arguing about.

We have a very long way to go, a lot of education to impart, a lot of habits to change..before we make a difference to the slaughter on Indian roads that goes on.

To do the above, requires some humility and acceptance and not a torn shirt open fly response that is so sadly evident here.

I won't change my view, i won't argue a retarded view that Indian driving habits are great and we are doing very well wrt other countries. We are doing a lousy job really.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 17 Jan 2012 02:33

Purush,

I'm very certain the percentage of pedestrians and cyclists being killed is 60%+ in India. Even back in the 80's I was part of several urban studies for Chennai which also looked at traffic fatalities. Pedestrian/slow vehicle kill rate with mixed traffic was the vast majority of fatalities, even way back then.

US traffic is all about predictability. People don't even have to think to drive in USA. If we tried that in India we would mow down our entire city in short order.

IMO 60% or so of our older cities, esp. ALL the side streets, should be pedestrian only. The main thoroughfares can then be barricaded so essentially no pedestrians/slow traffic should be allowed. This is how Paris or Rome are organized. Both are dense organic cities similar to India. Mass transit then provided 80% of all daily trips. This is how those cities, which by the way have quite dreadful driving habits, managed to get a handle on the problem.

Indian drivers are not going to reform. It is part of our social condition. Best to separate the vehicles and pedestrians forcefully.
-----------------------------------------

WRT cows they are the least of our problems. Esp. Chennai as Aavin milk and now the ubiquitous tetra packs became available the cow on the street has reduced quite dramatically. It was a nature of our social condition that certain groups wanted fresh milk at their doors every day for religious/dietary reasons. As long as that group existed there were going to be cows inside cities and on the streets. As that group dies out the cows disappear.

People should remember that one of the most nauseating sights in India used to be cow-dung patties stuck on every manner of wall. As people have switched to LPG, that too has ended. Social condition. Now the only dung on walls is politician fat-cat posters.

--------------------------------------------------

Also Panda road fatalities number is hugely fudged. The number killed on Panda roads in accidents is 250,000 per year. But the number reported as vehicle fatalities is only 80,000 and declining!!

It appears Panda has been leaving out the pedestrian fatalities to avoid 'alarming' the people. You know, in their best interests.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 17 Jan 2012 06:32

theo,
pedestrianization is an interesting idea. but as a past proponent, based on experiences in blr and in mys, i have learnt that it does not necessarily work in all places. pretty soon, merchants/vendors will start complaining about fall in foot falls that follows pedestrianizations. the reason becomes apparent when you realize that pedestrian only zones can only work in life-style only markets. many such markets exist in indian towns, infact classic indian market is all about segregated markets. but the problem is that access to these areas is typically through areas non-lifestyle markets. what do you do when a textiles pete is surrounded by hardware market on one side and whole vegetable market on the other?

pedestrianization by itself will not work. but how about quazi public access? working on it. who does the public quazi transiting is not clear.

thanks for your posts on cows and cow dung. very perceptive and very true. all behavior is a function of functionality. nothing endemic to a populace. in US, people follow rules because there exist PERVASIVE rules that make sense to them. intermittently building 15 ft lanes in a country where two wheelers are abundant, and expecting people to follow them in places where no organization exists makes no sense. to expect people to somehow intuit all rules based on these ill thought out half baked ideas, and modify their
behavior is stretching it. idiots are the people making who are making these rules, not the people who violate them.

amit · Post by **amit** » 17 Jan 2012 06:44

I think in the Indian context the only viable solution is to make mass transit systems so efficient that it becomes the preferred mode of choice for transportation for a majority of the population. Coupled with this there's a need for aggressive road use tax pricing which disincentivises driving in congested localities. These two steps must be syncronised with each other - that is costly to drive and the alternative is a well connected and comfortable Metro/Mono rail system with good feeder bus services.

It's a tall ask to get this going but given the fact it is virtually impossible to demolish and rebuild our cities the way ChinPanda has done, IMO that's the only viable long term solution.

JMT

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 17 Jan 2012 07:13

hi amit. that is an ideal. but transit works in conjunction with how the city is actually laid out. our ideals are completely alien to our realities. in lieu of that and we end up making our own people problematic. problem is at the top not at the bottom. problem is with the system not the people.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Jan 2012 08:48

Purush wrote: Saar, cow is a domesticated animal already not a wild species.

By "domesticated" you mean we have forced them to live with us for our selfish reasons ?

Purush wrote: You still haven't answered my question about whether the cow roaming around in the city is good for the cow itself?
Let me reiterate:
1) What's it going to eat in the city?
2) What is it going to drink?
3) Where is it going to rest?
4) How is it going to avoid traffic/noise pollution/dangerous objects

The cow will find food and water for itself. You need not worry about it. I believe there is enough food and water for cows in cities.

Regarding pollution: I think you should transfer your elderly parents/grandparents to the "periphery". I believe they will be able to "avoid traffic/noise pollution" there.

Purush wrote: Also what about stray dogs biting toddlers?
What is more important to you - the safety and well being of a toddler/senior citizen or the 'right' of a stray dog to do whatever the *&%$ it wants?

If a stray dog bites a toddler, then the well-wishers of the toddler have every right to use proportionate force to protect the latter.

And what about thousands of fish/goats/chicken killed everyday for various purposes? I don't think thousands of children die from dog-bites everyday. Due to some strange reason, you forgot to mention this point. This asymmetry is very interesting. And I don't mean that in a good way.

The quality of life for city dwellers must be improved. Isn't that what we are all supporting?

Relocating cows from the city streets is one of the steps.

The quality of life for *all* organisms must be improved. It includes human beings and animals. Relocating one species from any location is hardly a fair approach.

The cows were given royal status as most Brahmin households do to cows. The cows were cleaned properly, were regularly checked by the local vet who was a family friend, they had spacious land for roaming, clean drinking water, shady trees for resting under etc. In short they were happy, contented cows.

How can we generalize from what happened in your family? Do you believe that it is a fair portrayal of what happens in an average Indian family? Why should I care if you belong in the tail of the probability distribution?

I strongly suspect they wouldn't have been so happy if they were left to fend for themselves on the hot baking roads, dodging the genocidal KSRTC buses, without access to clean food and water.

See...how many times do I need to point out that human beings are responsible for these "genocidal buses"? You cannot constrain the movement of animals due to the environmental mess created by human beings. samjhe? People who created the problem should pay the price.

But..but.. these terms and conditions are artificial constructs by humans, not in tune with the natural free-for-all outlook for humans + animals.

Yes, they are artificial. But human beings have *voluntarily* accepted them. (If they don't like the terms and conditions of labor, they are free to strike/resign.) I don't think we know what animals want. It is my guess that chicken/goats don't want to die prematurely. I think parrots don't want to be in cages. I speculate that hens are not big fans of an omelette. Of course, I don't have any evidence for these claims. You should consult volume 27 of your Lahori Logic manual and tell us about the reality.