Indian Roads Thread

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Nov 2012 10:33

I can tell you for certain that properly engineered drawings in India very much follow the IRC recommendations.

The problems come during implementation. Only the large companies have the administrative muscle to test, inspect and QC every batch of conc, steel, weld and joint. This stuff is also quite expensive. In the USA for instance 20% of project cost goes towards compliance. Every bolt is checked and every weld and every rebar placement is inspected and signed of on by independent inspectors. And this is required of everyone in USA, from munna and munni contractor on up, if they wish to keep their licenses. The problem in India is that very very few of the contracting groups have any sort of experience with this compliance process. They tend to wing it and hope for the best with consequences to our infrastructure...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Nov 2012 20:50

Indian express had an article on the poor road condition of the Kuthiran pass on NH47 with 2000+ potholes and KSRTC drivers down with back pain. The 20km stretch is impassable apparently, and no contractor showed up when a tender was floated to relay the stretch for a piddly amount of 5 crores or so by NHAI.

Another new NHAI bridge span sank by a few feet somewhere around Bolghatty area in Kochi and is now closed. Quality Control at implementation stage is poor for sure.

And we all know how good PWD is, was expecting better from a national level org like NHAI.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2012 21:00

I am saying revamp this whole contracting business.. desh need not follow that model, and plug the corruption hole first. we can get back to contractor dealings later.

Make it a project, and hand over to private industries.. like big names who are willing to venture. However, have all planning, regulations and services controlled by the gov. now, once a private industry is chosen, then no questions asked other than inspections.

de link politicians from infrastructure and services sector. remove even the ministry for such things. they are useless anyways.. restrict gov to only areas of regulations and rules. gov has no business on the roads, except the planning and regulating them. for this, people have to grow up to understand needs first.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Nov 2012 21:31

There are limits to what the owners/investment group can do. Compliance is simply NOT NHAI expertise. This is where DMRC shone for a while, though it did jack up project costs. Recently DMRC too has been stung by the compliance problems at the express line. We should follow what works in other countries. Typically compliance is a peer reviewed process. Meaning other independent professionals are hired to watch over the implementing group of professionals. It is also backup by the local administration and code compliance folks. Despite occasional problems this works in all other countries. Of course it is expensive to hire 2 groups of skilled folks to do one job, one to do it and another group to watch them like hawks as it is in their commercial interest to find problems.

This failure of compliance has another odd consequence for India. Engineers tend to over-engineer their designs by a LOT due to this. It is not unusual to require a rebar cover of 15-20 cm in India while the standard in USAS is about 5-10 cm. So columns beams etc are much larger than necessary. We waste a lot of material and engineering.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Nov 2012 22:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:There are limits to what the owners/investment group can do. Compliance is simply NOT NHAI expertise. This is where DMRC shone for a while, though it did jack up project costs. Recently DMRC too has been stung by the compliance problems at the express line.

Does it mean we are unable to scale up rapidly, while keeping quality in civil construction projects. Going cheap and cutting corners, might contribute to failing quality. Simple privatization as suggested by SaiK, is not going to fix such issues on its own. As of now, even NHAI just oversees the overall project implemented by private players isn't it ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2012 22:21

well.. that is the reason I said, people have to grow up to a certain levels that doing mistakes are put forward, and corruption is near empty right from their thought process. practically none can stop a person, who wants to keep doing the wrong things. this is the first step.

then we can take multiple steps, and per our needs is what I am saying. The least gov handling, the better is the services sector. however, we have to put our policies, procedures in place before this happens. For example going cheap and cutting corners is not existent in such a process, where process correction happens by default. distribution and material standards are established, and purchased, under inspection regime, with everything at a predetermined time, price and specifications.

If policies are in place, if materials are fixed, the only other thing is the process.. what if the mixer does not mix it correct? what if he cheats and sells the extra cement and smuggles, what if etc.. these issues will be there in any form of system, if people at core would not change.

We need the right people working for the right needs. People must raise above the corruption index, and feel the needs honestly required for everyone. If people feel that they want 1ft concrete roads, and mandates it, who can stop it? if people feel they have no rights, or power less, then it is time to change the system such that they get that power back into their hands. we have discrepancies in our inherited democracy. must change.

and loophole fixing is a never ending process.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 Nov 2012 01:59

Singha wrote:their website is down, but here is one of their annual meeting websites
http://www.73irccoimbatore.in/
... abandoning their post for foreign vacations and wheeling dealing unlike the political turds.

oh, I did not know the existence of such an organization. I thought you used "congress" instead of "construction" which is entirely justified given the quality of public works executed under these worthies.

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 15 Dec 2012 17:42

No toll to be charged on two-lane highways

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 620587.cms

NEW DELHI: In a major shift from its earlier stand of bringing more roads under toll network, the highways ministry would drop any proposal to charge toll on two-lane highways. Sources said that this view has emerged following consensus among officials that providing a minimum two-lane highway is government's "social responsibility".
For over three years, there has been a debate on bringing all two-lane highways under tolling in order to recover the investment made for their expansion and the ministry had been planning to bring the issue before the Cabinet for its approval. But it has faced objection from one department or the other."We don't want any tolling on two-lane highways. However, we need to take a decision on what should be the norm for levying toll. Without providing any additional facility or big comfort to commuters,bringing a toll-free road under tollingwould go against commuters' interest," a government official said.
Sources said that the highways minister C P Joshi has also supported this argument, and even the NationalHighways Authority of India (NHAI) is in favour of it. "We will send our observation. We have been against tolling on two-lane highways and any increase in toll charges ," a senior NHAI official said.
The ministry's changed stand would send signals of how the UPA government is in favour of pro-aam aadmi measures ahead of crucial assembly polls in Rajasthan, Delhi, Chhattisgarh and Madhya Pradesh next year.
Government has prepared an elaborate plan to award at least 8,500 km single/ two-lane highwaysfor expansion to two-and-half lanes over the next two years with 100% government funding. Majority of such projects in the first phase wouldbe taken up in Joshi's home state Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh.
Exempting all two-lanes from tolling would also help the government avoid protests at local levels. At least 50% of the over 75,000km national highways have two lanes, while around 20% of the total network stillhave a single lane.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 27 Dec 2012 13:43

^^ Recently discovered that Maharashtra has a lot of 2 lane state highways that are tolled today. Will they also go?

Did a recent round trip of Chennai-Kumbakonam-Chennai via Ulundurpet-Jayamkondan-annaikarai- Kumbakonam. After a very long time, found the tarmac good for the entire Chennai-Kumbakonam stretch and the roads in and around K.Konam has also been relaid. Also heard that road between Vikravanti-Panruti-sethiathope (the traditional Chennai- Kumbakonam road) has also been relaid.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Dec 2012 14:45

^ really? I was skeptical and took the chn - trichy - melur route to rameswaram. I was thinking of going south in ECR and cutting across to that area and decided to skip it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Dec 2012 18:06

Sridhar K wrote:^^ Recently discovered that Maharashtra has a lot of 2 lane state highways that are tolled today. Will they also go?

Did a recent round trip of Chennai-Kumbakonam-Chennai via Ulundurpet-Jayamkondan-annaikarai- Kumbakonam. After a very long time, found the tarmac good for the entire Chennai-Kumbakonam stretch and the roads in and around K.Konam has also been relaid. Also heard that road between Vikravanti-Panruti-sethiathope (the traditional Chennai- Kumbakonam road) has also been relaid.

Really, this stretch has been a real Nightmare for me.

What is this Ulunurpet- jayamkondan route, I know the Vikranti- Punruti route, I know ECR- Cadalur, CHidambaram- Mayavaram route.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2012 08:13

I did the Vikravandi-Panruti-Sethiathope-KMU route twice last month. The stretch has become better definitely. It is now NH-47C. The stretch between KMU to Sethiathope is superb and after that it degrades but not like before when it was impossible to negotiate. There is one particularly dangerous spot where the trucks transporting sand from the quarry have made the road treacherous. I also had a long delay there when two trucks got struck holding up traffic for nearly an hour. Finally, I turned back and took a detour through Villupuram. There is also a slightly longer route, but which is very good through Ariyalur Thiruvaiyaru, Swamimalai to KMU. The stretch between Thiruvaiyaru & Swamimalai used to be very bad but it has also been relaid recently.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Dec 2012 10:06

Finally in the disturbed areas called as Andhra Pradesh two things got completed:

(1) The major stretch of Hyderabad ORR (six main lanes free way + four service lanes) is complete. There is the last 70km still remaining.
(2) Finally Hyderabad to Viayawada has a four to six lane highway with dividers.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 28 Dec 2012 14:19

I am going to Bangalore through the usual Vellore-Krishnagiri route, but planning to come back through the Kolar-Chittor route. How is this route? Has it improved? I heard its slow and passes through villages....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Dec 2012 02:35

point of origin? anyways, BLR-Chennai-BLR-CBT-Cochin- route I traveled during oct 2012 on KSRTC a/c sleeper cushions and multi-axle vehicle still made shake my sleep many a times. wake me up, when we get some decent roads in desh highways.. forget the massan interstates stds, if you are relatively asking that question for a short trip to desh after a long massan road running.

manish · Post by **manish** » 29 Dec 2012 10:49

One more setback for our highway development efforts which anyway have taken beating ever since UPA came to power in 2004:

GMR Group drives off Ahmedabad highway

Sources said the GMR Group has said NHAI has not done what it had promised to do under the contract and so this was a “material default” on its part. Not only had NHAI failed to get the necessary environment clearance for one of the tunnels along the highway — under the contract, this was NHAI’s obligation — it had not even asked the GMR Group for more time to do this. “Therefore the Authority”, the GMR letter says, “has been in continuous default in complying with the provisions of the Agreement. The Authority has thus clearly repudiated the Agreement.”

NHAI has up to January 4 to reply to the notice, after which GMR is likely to issue a termination notice as per clause 37.2.2.
According to sources, while the GMR Group brought in R800-850 crore as its share of equity in order to achieve financial close in May this year, it also mobilised around 300 workers for six-laning of the four-lane highway.

Apart from the environment clearance, NHAI has also not notified toll rates for the highway.

I think this 555km long project was to be the first of the mega highway projects to be bid out. Apparently, this is going to have a HUGE negative impact on NHAI finances, to the tune of some Rs. 9,000cr which was to be the premium paid out by GMR over the duration of the concession.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Dec 2012 19:17

^^ Goddamn UPA.

Will ensure India is run to the ground by the time it is done with this country and then sneer at the NDA rule saying they did nothing(esp on road front) and was a false "India Shining"

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 29 Dec 2012 23:29

Goddam the electorate of India for choosing them....Who wants hard working jobs ( read roads ) when free cash and food is here....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2012 12:43

plus being Gujarat, anything that pulls it down is welcome.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Jan 2013 17:55

Did my 850 + KM Chennai - BNG - Chennai trip in the usual NH-4-46 route. Have to say the condition of the highways have deteriorated terribly. In a sense, the condition is bad in terms of a large number of diversions to make way for new overhead passes and new lanes so they are for the eventual good. Patchwork on the highways especially in the Vellore to Krishnagiri stretch is of very poor quality and at places almost rising above the rest of the road to form mini speed breakers. Very irritating and very low quality of work. I can only imagine some NHAI inspector taking a bribe to approve this work done by some lowest bidding contractor, I mean, no sane official would have approved such shoddy work.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 02 Jan 2013 20:17

Did a road trip from Chennai to Pondicherry this holiday break. On the way there we went by NH-45 till a town called Tindivanum in the interior and then cut across to the coast on another national highway (I think it was NH-66). We came back on the East Coast Road.

Very good roads all the way. The NHs are divided highways all the way through (not access controlled) with two lanes in each direction and excellent surface quality. The ECR is not a divided road -- one lane per direction -- but has good surface quality and we didn't have to do a lot of overtaking because there wasn't much traffic, so it was quite safe.

What a pleasant experience to do a drive in India where you can maintain a smooth, constant speed for a long time without having to constantly brake and overtake. Kudos to NHAI and the agency that maintains the ECR.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 02 Jan 2013 20:23

I should also mention that GPS and Google Maps worked flawlessly for directions even in Pondicherry town, and I got an HSDPA signal almost the entire trip. Overall a great experience pretty much at developed country standards, roads and technology-wise.

The entire area is very scenic, with beautiful green vistas made even prettier by cloudy/rainy weather during our trip.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jan 2013 08:51

Abhijeet, yes, I agree with the road quality of NH 66 which was completed about two years back. It is a tolled road. The ECR is State Highway (SH-49) and goes all the way along the east coast to Kanyakumari. Apart from the Chennai-Pondicherry stretch, I have done stretches deep south last year. Those stretches are prettier and the road surface quality was even better. There has been a project to widen the ECR but would need WB assistance.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 03 Jan 2013 09:34

The ECR road surface is good. But in the S.TN part it runs through towns and you will be sharing the road with a variety of users and inevitably it slows everybody down.

Abhijeet, why did you go via GST and then cut back to ECR for Pondy? You could have gone via ECR to Pondy to begin with, right?

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 03 Jan 2013 10:25

The driver said he needed a permit for Pondicherry, which he got at an RTO station on NH-66. We were a large group and had rented a Tempo Traveler.

I think the NH-45/NH-66 route is as fast as ECR, though longer distance-wise.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Jan 2013 10:40

Is it NH-66 or NH-16 ? The former is on the west coast of India. The new naming of highways adds to the confusion.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jan 2013 17:59

It is indeed NH 66. It goes from Krishnagiri to Pondicherry. It used to end up at Tindivanam but was extended a few years back to Pondicherry. The stretch from Tindivanam to Krishnagiri is bad (except in patches), but from Tindivanam to Pondicherry is very good. I took this NH to reach Tiruvannamalai a few months back but it was horrible up to Gingee from the fork on NH45. From then on to Thiruvannamalai it was a smooth ride. This road is being relaid and widened to normal NH standards but the work is progressing slow.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 Jan 2013 18:33

Gus,

There is no ECR south of Thoothukudi that I know of. There has been an occasional desultory push to link up some existing roads to Kanya Kumari but nothing has come of it. The condition of these roads in S.TN is terrible and only fit for bullet type vehicles. It will take a massive effort to bring these roads up to N.TN ECR standards even. Stay on the NH folks don't look for the ECR.

There is also a push to extend a railway line all along the coast to Kanyakumari. Now that most of the gauge conversions are done, this may be taken up in earnest. There are some areas of the coast that are a good 50-100 km from the nearest rail.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2013 08:13

How come the old NH-17 is also called NH-66 now then ? What is the rational behind these new numbering system for national highways.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Jan 2013 09:12

Might be something to do with this?

On 28 April 2010, the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways officially notified the rationalized number system of the national highway network in the Gazette of the Government of India.[1] [2] It is a systematic numbering scheme based on the orientation and the geographic location of the highway. This was adopted to ensure more flexibility and consistency in the numbering of existing and new national highways.[3] According to the system all north-south oriented highway will have even numbers increasing from the east to the west. Similarly all east-west oriented highways will be odd numbered increasing from the north to the south of the country."The Ministry has therefore requested to renumber the National Highway numbers in place of the existing number of National Highway for its proper location. Accordingly, a revised (Renumbered) map of National Highways in India is shown in this article. As per the new scheme, the single longest national highway will be NH 44 which will run from Srinagar to Kaniyakumari. The shortest Highway is NH-36. The distance is 3.0 km only.

The new numbering system has caused too much confusion and the ministry has decided to stick to the old numbers.[4]

manish · Post by **manish** » 05 Jan 2013 09:57

Yogi_G wrote:Did my 850 + KM Chennai - BNG - Chennai trip in the usual NH-4-46 route. Have to say the condition of the highways have deteriorated terribly. In a sense, the condition is bad in terms of a large number of diversions to make way for new overhead passes and new lanes so they are for the eventual good. Patchwork on the highways especially in the Vellore to Krishnagiri stretch is of very poor quality and at places almost rising above the rest of the road to form mini speed breakers. Very irritating and very low quality of work. I can only imagine some NHAI inspector taking a bribe to approve this work done by some lowest bidding contractor, I mean, no sane official would have approved such shoddy work.

The whole stretch is being upgraded to 6-lanes from the current 4/6-lanes. That was the reason for hiking the tolls from Rs. 45 or so to Rs. 60 during early 2012. They will not invest in proper upkeep of the existing road surface as its days are numbered - I think this is the reason for the poor quality patchwork in that stretch.

Once the major works are completed and alignment changes/adjustments are completed, they will relay the whole thing.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jan 2013 10:50

Without Comments - Courtesy: The Hindu

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jan 2013 14:52

Nearly had an accident 20KM before Sriperumbudur when one of those cows deceided enough of grazing and cross the road when driving from Bengaluru to CHennai

Anther time saw a Swift car hit a cow just before Poonamalee when driving from Tirupati to Chennai- clearly the Owners of the cow dont care of about endangering the cows and other people's llifes when they take cattle to graze on the center median. The same farmer will cry about livelyhood when say a leopard kills the same cow.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 05 Jan 2013 23:18

Looks like cows are the Indian version of deer. Hopefully the damage is covered by auto insurers.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 05 Jan 2013 23:40

Better to educate owners than animals. Some animals are more social, compared to others. For examples elephants, deer are at home in woods. Cows, dogs, cats, camels roam around all over. Can't blame animals for being generally social.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jan 2013 00:25

vishvak wrote:Better to educate owners than animals. Some animals are more social, compared to others. For examples elephants, deer are at home in woods. Cows, dogs, cats, camels roam around all over. Can't blame animals for being generally social.

When did the animals in bengaluru, kerala and chennai, gujarat became social? I am talking about the two legged ones!

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jan 2013 20:45

Aditya_V wrote:The same farmer will cry about livelyhood when say a leopard kills the same cow.

The same farmer would bring in a large number of his pals and then demand a ransom from the car owner/driver. And there would be enough of other bafoons who would support this thuggery citing the reasons of "poor cowherd v/s rich car owner" or pure simple "socialism"

. It is not that these cowherds or farmers do not know the risks. They know that, and they also know that they can get a ransom if some thing goes wrong. The same crowd is not very enthusiastic to try the same trick near railway tracks. Why? No chance of the cow surviving, plus the thuggery does not work with the railway staff.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 07 Jan 2013 18:25

Sachin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:The same farmer will cry about livelyhood when say a leopard kills the same cow.
The same farmer would bring in a large number of his pals and then demand a ransom from the car owner/driver. And there would be enough of other bafoons who would support this thuggery citing the reasons of "poor cowherd v/s rich car owner" or pure simple "socialism" . It is not that these cowherds or farmers do not know the risks. They know that, and they also know that they can get a ransom if some thing goes wrong. The same crowd is not very enthusiastic to try the same trick near railway tracks. Why? No chance of the cow surviving, plus the thuggery does not work with the railway staff.

I once was going through a particular very narrow road and a vendor woman on the street purposely tried to jut her leg before my front wheel. Luckily I was driving very slow due to the large number of pedestrians on the narrow road. I braked hard and the stop was near instantaneous. The lady was disappointed but a small crowd (other vendors) gathered instantaneously (came across as planned), seeing that nothing happened the others went away and the lady hit the bonnet of my car and said "kaalu pona rendu laksham kattanum" (if leg goes u have to pay 2 lakhs) and laughed in a very sort of evil way.

I was shell shocked and thanked God on sparing me from what would have been very nasty trouble if the tyre had even grazed the woman's leg.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Jan 2013 18:51

There are some places where roads cut through grazing grounds and I think it is the road user who has to be sensitive to that.

And then there are places where they really have to fence it off to prevent animals from crossing. The problem is, the people then make openings to let animals roam free.

I see this on OMR too. Lord knows what the cows are doing there. I should probably catch hold of a good one and bring it home. I can use some free milk.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Jan 2013 19:01

From conversations I have had apparently a large number of the cows are actually owned by cops in Chennai. So don't get in trouble with them. If folks think TN is bad you should check out Chattigarh & MP. Not unusual to encounter 200 cow herd using the full width of state highways!

I saw a motorcycle walla + wife who was bumped into the ditch by cow and the jungle crowd gathered to laugh at him and his wife. One herd it took us a solid 10 minutes to get through as we hit it as 2 herds were crossing, one heading north and the other south.