Indian Roads Thread

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2013 21:11

I thought chennai cops owned all the autos.

Now cows too ? Diversification ?

Truly an anarchy held together by glue and cellotapd.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jan 2013 18:16

YUp, it needs change at the top for this anarchy to start reversing.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2013 21:41

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/and ... epage=true

it is not even interstates or freeways.. why this hectic business of tolls? aren't other ways to build roads? or is that our economy is so poor that we have to rely on this BOT mode?

besides the corruption part...which should help actually build better freeways.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 20 Jan 2013 22:34

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 95623.aspx

So who will pay for the maintenance after 30 years ?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 02:23

develop a road building standard, and empower the locals to build roads. That way, it is involving the villagers and jobs for them as well. We don't need big machinery, but only smaller ones that these people can use.

why contract big co.s? by this way, villagers participate, and start taking ownership of roads and adopt them for their well being.

All required is process and standards, methods and copy book styles of laying roads.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 02:51

The land acquisition issues are not limited to Kerala alone, it is all along the Konkan-Malabar coast with similar terrain and population density.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/812 ... ening.html
'Restrict 4-lane road widening to 45 metres'
Udupi, July 13, DHNS:

The Udupi-Dakshina Kannada-Udupi Jilla Rashtriya Heddari 17 Bhooswadina Santhrastara Horata Samithi has demanded that the width of NH 17, which is being converted into a four-lane road from Surathkal to Kundapur should be restricted to 45 metres.

Speaking to presspersons here, Committee Convener Ramdas Nayak said NH 17 spreads 295 kms in Karnataka, 351 kms in kerala, 78 kms in Goa and 51 kms in Maharashtra. The Kerala and Goa governments have submitted a memorandum to NHAI to restrict the acquisition to 45 metres. However, National Highways Authority of India (NHAI) which will be converting the 76 km stretch between Surathkal and Kundapur and the 195 km stretch between Kundapur and Karwar to four lanes with a width of 60 metres.

“We will not accept this discrimainatrory policy of the NHAI. In fact, Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa had directed the NHAI officials to restrict the width of the highway to 45 metres in urban areas and 60 metres in rural areas.”

“However, the officials had already begun acquiring the land for 60 metres width,” he alleged.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 21 Jan 2013 10:35

Bade wrote:The land acquisition issues are not limited to Kerala alone, it is all along the Konkan-Malabar coast with similar terrain and population density.

The only difference I feel is that land acquisition is a problem all across Kerala, where as in Karnataka it may only be in a few areas. Had just made a short trip through the Mahe, Thalassery route recentely. Now this is supposed to be NH17 but in many places it is more like a bazaar road. If any one wants to make NH 17 a four lane highway on the current alignment, I feel that is going to be a pipe dream for quite some time :).

Regarding the reduction in road width etc. IMHO, either we stick to the NHAI standard or do away with the road widening scheme all together. Or else it would be a waste of money. Let the road users and local population decide a way out. 10 years down the lane, the same narrow "express highway" would again be chocked with traffic and this land acquisition excercise would have to be started all over again.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 10:48

Saar in your hurry to diss Kerala :-) you forgot that we are talking of NH-17 in KA too your place of domicile. The problems are similar as well as demands. You also conveniently forgot that the terrain of KA where land acquisition issues may not be there are different from the Malabar-Konkan areas. KL is largely similar terrain with the coastal flats more densely populated.

The way out is to have multiple roads, not just widening a single highway system as traffic density increases with time. The other costly option is build elevated expressways along the median of existing highways both state and national. This might get to be economical as land prices get astronomical pretty soon compared to construction costs for elevated roads.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 21 Jan 2013 11:40

Bade wrote:Saar in your hurry to diss Kerala you forgot that we are talking of NH-17 in KA too your place of domicile

I did not miss that point :). I dont have much experience in travelling through the Kannur->Mangalore part of NH17. Perhaps the problem exists there, and I dont refute it. But in other areas in KA land acquistion is not much of a problem. There are good tolled four lane express highways in other parts of Karnataka.

The way out is to have multiple roads, not just widening a single highway system as traffic density increases with time.

But dont that lead to land acquistion as well? As I see it pretty much every road in "commie heaven" have homes right next to the road. The only thing the folks want is roads and railway lines through reserve forests (because who cares about animals any ways) :P.

The other costly option is build elevated expressways...

You know about what happened to such a plan,right? :). Intellectuals, commies every one in Kerala out right rejected this plan. Reasons being "division of the state into two halves all the way to small farmers selling their products on the road side loosing their income". So we should now leave it to the 100% literate state and its every intellectual to figure out a way. The central government bodies can hold the fund allotments etc till the plan is ready.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 11:56

A fully elevated highway on pillars along existing alignments will be super expensive currently but will be doable in the near future. The advantage is local traffic can keep at grade level along the same alignment too. So commies and others can be motivated to play along. Look at it as similar to the high speed rail on pillars concept.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 21 Jan 2013 13:17

Bade wrote:So commies and others can be motivated to play along.

Kerala I feel has this classic problem of "All Chiefs and no Indians" :). I mean pretty much every one considers himself a leader and would have his own firm opinions (this applies to me as well). So all being chiefs it is going to get tough to get them all agree with some thing. Land acqusition problems would remain, and the new craze seems to be to build airports every where. There was also an earlier plan of introducing high speed boats/ferries which can carry large number of people at pretty good speed. Sea still is out there wide and open and perhaps a large number of people can take the sea route (if they can with stand sea sickness etc.).

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 19:26

But all said and done, it is not all bad and nothing happening as claimed by many. I checked wiki for road networks in 3 southern states and KL has the highest density of district roads of all states. From what I see in the 3 districts I frequent, the black tops are on all of these single lane roads as well. Though TN is claimed as the mecca for roads in the south, it is nowhere near in total surface area of roads at the last mile connectivity level when compared to KL. This despite having a good highway connectivity with cities and towns.

Democracy with some commiesms does help at times too.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 19:42

With current construction alone costs of building highways (4 lanes) estimated at anywhere between $2 to $3 million per 1km or Rs10-15 crores per km, a 500km long 4 lane road will cost Rs5000 to Rs10,000 crore to build new.

Let us now estimate the land acquisition costs for the same limiting it to 45 meters width for ease of calculation. For 500km long that amounts to 5000 acres (45 x 1000 x 10 = 450,000 sqft = 10 acres per km). Current land costs along the NH-17 alignment is between Rs 1-5 L per cent ie Rs 1-5 crore per acre. So land alone will be costing closer to Rs 25,000 crores today. I would not be surprised if it goes up a factor of 2 every ten years, probably by more and always rises faster than construction costs.

So total land cost + building cost for 500km is Rs35,000 crores today. If land costs go up it will become Rs50,000+ within a few years.

Now in 2010 prices, the Hosur 10km elevated stretch has cost some 750+ crores which will be more like 1000 crores over the decade, so it will be Rs 100 crore per km of elevated expway. For 500km length, you are looking at Rs50,000 crores.

Time to start building an elevated NH-17 along some stretches at least.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 21 Jan 2013 19:47

Now if you want 60m width instead of the 45 meters, then the current land cost plus construction costs is already at Rs50,000+ crore level. :-) So why wait, bring the pillars on when construction costs are lower now.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 21:48

They should go for modular pre-constructed-columns. This can be done for both regular roads and pillared highways.

for ground: level out, gavel in with sand on top and place pre constructed rcc-slabs, fill the joins and tar the top. that way, we can reduce or corner the bribery points to single point source, and corner them. or have locals make these concrete slabs.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 22 Jan 2013 01:13

If each span length is ~ 30 m each then we are looking at 30 x 500 spans and pillars. I do not think it can be done locally without QA issues. Least of worries is corruption in such huge projects, but getting everything right is more important. From that will follow cleaner and transparent processes.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2013 01:53

you have the quality point, and correct. i did not think there.. jee this corruption can kill us. and can't think about progress at all!

on the brighter side, the locals can't complain about their roads being bad since they built it. so, in a way, distribute the quality around. i think anyway, it is going to be corrupted.

we could however, with specs, can be asked to use mixtures, use standard machinery, etc.. but the fellow who mixes, must be monitored by the locals.

so in a nutshell, i am trying to blame the locals rather gov. more empowerment to the community based dev model

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SSridhar » 26 Jan 2013 12:59

NHAI spares 1300 year old temple - The Hindu
It is even astonishing that the villagers had to mount a spirited defence to save such an old temple !
Villagers of Panaiyapuram in Villupuram district of Tamil Nadu are an overjoyed lot and they cannot wait anymore to honour their saviours. They want to erect big banners, expressing their “gratitude” to the saviours, and present them with turbans and shawls. A reception too will be organised. The saviours are National Highways Authority of India officers, who, heeding the protests of locals, have decided not to demolish the 1,300-year-old Siva temple in the village to make way for widening the Vikkiravandi-Thanjavur National Highway (NH) 45C. The villagers will also honour Tamil Nadu officials who convinced the NHAI not to pull down the temple.

When the plans to widen the NH-45C, cutting through the temple, became public, residents of Panaiyapuram, Pappanapattu, Mundiyampakkam, Kappiyampuliyur and Thuravi forgot their caste and class divisions and rose as one to protest against it. For, the widened highway would have shot like an arrow through the ancient Siva temple and its sanctum sanctorum for Panankateesvarar, and the shrines for his consort Satyambikai, Ganesa and Muruga would have been razed to their foundation. Inscriptions belonging to Rajendra Chola (regnal years 1012 CE to 1043 CE), his son, Rajendra Chola II, Adhi Rajendra, Kulotunga I, Jatavarman Sundara Pandiya I, Vikrama Pandiya and others would have disappeared. ( The Hindu , Road that may erase history, April 6, 2012).

This enraged the villagers, who were determined not to allow the temple demolition to go through. They petitioned Villupuram Collector V. Sampath, NHAI officials and Union Ministers. The State government’s land acquisition officer feared the issue would lead to a law and order problem. The NHAI officials informed their headquarters about the protests.

The NHAI has now decided “to restrict the proposed ROW [right of way] width to avoid acquisition of the ancient temple near Panaiyapuram village by restricting the extent of land acquisition up to the existing compound wall of the temple on the LHS [left hand side] of the temple portion only.” The NHAI has stated this in a letter, dated October 6, 2012, to the Competent Authority and the Special District Revenue Officer (LA), National Highways-45C, Villupuram. In an earlier communication also, dated September 20, 2012, the NHAI said the “four-laning of NH-45C will be accommodated between the existing compound wall of the temple and the existing Veeranam pipeline on the other side.” When contacted, an NHAI official said: “The temple will not be touched.”

The NHAI’s decision has delighted the villagers. R.P. Pugazhendi, ex-president, Panaiyapuram panchayat, called the decision “the will of God.” Residents of Panaiyapuram and other villagers, he said, “forgot their caste and class and fought together to save the historic temple.”

He added: “We will host the NHAI and the State government officials a reception. We will honour them by giving them shawls and turbans. We will erect a hoarding, expressing our gratitude to them, at the highway intersection, where the roads branch off to Chennai, Puducherry, Thanjavur and Villupuram.”

R.P. Athiyaman, who belongs to Panaiyapuram but lives in Chennai, praised the NHAI officials for respecting “our sense of history and sentiments.”

R. Nagaswamy, former Director of the Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology, said the Saivite saint Tirugnana Sambandar, who lived in the seventh century CE, had sung verses praising the temple’s Sivalinga. Rajendra Chola-I’s inscription called the deity Nethroddharaka Swami (i.e., the deity will cure eye ailments).

Rajendra Chola I rebuilt the Panaiyapuram temple in honour of his woman personal assistant (“anukki” in Tamil) called Paravai and the town around the temple was called Paravaipuram.

The inscriptions of Rajendra Chola II (regnal years 1052 CE to 1064 CE), Adhi Rajendra (1068 CE to 1071 CE) and Kulotunga Chola I (1070 CE to 1122 CE) mention the gift of paddy, land and gold coins to the temple.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2013 20:47

so, would like to bring open to public who were the perpetrators in planning to cut through the temple. hey, if one can't cut through there are other options, although expensive.

an underground would again destruct the foundation of temple, and has to ensure they are preconstructed cuboid columns as they do in chicago or ny subs.


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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby krisna » 05 Feb 2013 05:47

^^^^
xposting from burkha forum by shushupti
viewtopic.php?p=1404371#p1404371

excerpts from the post in telegraph
For a model ring road, look to Modi’s Surat
If the model is followed, states will not have to dip into their strained finances for the ring roads that will be self-financing through a mix of land acquisition and real estate development of the kind adopted by the Surat civic body.

The idea has come in the form of an advisory from the urban development ministry and is aimed at most Indian cities that have developed in a “radial” way —from the centre to the edges similar to a hub-and-spoke arrangement.

“There is a need to provide a ring road in every city in such a way that planned development can take place and the road is a self-sustainable project,” urban development ministry secretary Sudhir Krishna said in a letter to state governments last week.

“No model can be replicated in other cities of India due to demographic political, business and cultural differences but we can always learn from the experience of others to draft a city-specific financial model.”


In the absence of a ring road, traffic between points on the edges of a city, and even inter-city traffic in some zones, must pass through the centre, clogging the arteries.

The model assumes added significance for Calcutta, which does not have a ring road that circles the city in all four directions.

The Bengal capital, reeling from lack of funds for new projects, could look for answers in Surat.


Surat Model-
The Gujarat town’s municipal corporation, run by the ruling BJP, generated much of the Rs 5,000 crore for the ring road through sale of commercial properties along the 66km artery. It acquired land, developed infrastructure and returned 60 per cent of each owner’s plot to them.

Of the remaining 40 per cent, 20 per cent was used for the road, kept 90 metres wide to ensure it can handle the anticipated heavy traffic.

In the other 20 per cent, 10-15 per cent of the land along the road was sold to developers for residential, commercial and industrial use.

The remaining 5 per cent was used by the civic body to build parks, playgrounds and social infrastructure like schools and dispensaries. The facilities drove up the land prices.

The landowners got compensation for the 40 per cent they had to part with at below-market rates, but gained from having got back the rest of their plots, developed and topped up with basics. The other spin-off was the increase in prices fuelled by the facilities.


Hope all the cities follow this model with suitable changes according to the local conditions.
Where there is a will there is a way.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby manish » 05 Feb 2013 08:57

^^
Every city needs to have well planned, good quality ring roads. These can bring about a multitude of benefits. Among Indian cities, I was mighty impressed with the ORR in HYD - although they got into the party a little later compared to some of the other big cities, they did a good job with it - all piss and plogless kind of looks...

Image

Image

Both pictures CC to respective posters on SSCI.

Next in line will be Chennai with its Phase - I ORR (built by GMR) set to go on stream soon.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2013 10:09

wah wah cloverleafs and exit / merge lanes, proper service roads ... very anti sikular and un indic .

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Feb 2013 16:52

The first Photograph is where the road interests the the Chilkur Balaji Temple/ Tandur road. The photograph is taken from the Airport side with Gachibowli being on the other side.

Officially no 2 wheelers are allowed but some do I had a close shave, and Azharuddin 2nd son died riding a motorcycle at 200 KMPH on that road.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 07 Feb 2013 10:19

Hardly any vegetation to speak of except shrub land and even more interesting hardly any houses or commercial buildings either. Land acquisition should hardly be a problem in many part of AP and KA or even TN in the south.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 07 Feb 2013 11:27

Vast swathes of the US interstates looked like that too, when they were just built - pictures from the 1960s when the Eisenhower interstate system was first built look similar to this. Everything from vegetation to economic activity in the area develops over a period of time.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Prasad » 07 Feb 2013 12:14

Bade wrote:Hardly any vegetation to speak of except shrub land and even more interesting hardly any houses or commercial buildings either. Land acquisition should hardly be a problem in many part of AP and KA or even TN in the south.

Looks like paradise compared to the interstates in az, nv and parts of california :)

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2013 07:03

This is exactly what PRC is doing, building over virgin land. Very good strategy, before the human foot print develops. It is easy to plan and regulate going forward.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2013 07:12

Bade wrote:This is exactly what PRC is doing, building over virgin land. Very good strategy, before the human foot print develops. It is easy to plan and regulate going forward.

Actually land acquisition is never a problem in PRC, even when there are people living on it. Slums in Shanghai and other gleaming PRC cities disappeared overnight (along with the people) when the People's government decided that the cities needed to be transformed and they needed the land for roads and glass towers.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby lakshmikanth » 08 Feb 2013 07:16

Well... There is a "technopark" coming up near Allapuzha (Aleppey), they have acquired the land and build it up pretty well. Only issue is the road that leads upto it is the tiniest road you can find. Now, due to the technopark the land prices around that area have gone waay up and the govt is finding it very difficult to acquire land for widening the road.

More importantly, this is how a lot of people connected to the CONGoon industry make money. They buy up whatever land they can before the decision is made by "someone" up there. This is one of the issues in land acquisition. Everything is not black and white unfortunately.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2013 07:23

in BLR they are giving permits for ever more new office complexes off the ORR without ensuring the small service roads can actually cope which they certainly cannot...even the new service roads and flyovers are not good quality....but the BDA is happy to make money from all comers. their bosses in some pure residential VIP areas like kumara krupa, sadashivnagar are kept happy thats all.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2013 07:34

Despite land acquisition problems even in Kerala, roads do get built. There is a 2-3 km long bypass built over the last year or so in my hometown on the outskirts of Kochi district. Land value in that area close to center of town is like 5-10 laks per cent. But it has happened and the new bypass is a 2+2 lane divided highway more than 3 times the width of the existing NH-17 snaking through the middle of town wrapping around the temple grounds.

But I do not expect a hyd ORR style shock & awe for all parts of India. Each area to it unique needs and limitations. Large swathes of Karnataka and Andhra can take in more settlements from other parts of India.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 08 Feb 2013 10:36

lakshmikanth wrote:Well... There is a "technopark" coming up near Allapuzha (Aleppey), they have acquired the land and build it up pretty well

There was a news report this around some time back. I dont know if it was for this "Technopark". The news report said that even though the building is good the occupation rates are low. Main reasons given were non-availability of any other infrastructure around. The area did not have much provisions for people to stay. The companies out there also were small ones who did not have a transport fleet for their own. When the next harthal/revolution happens the Techies would not be able to land up from near by towns. Hence no big company tried setting their shops up there.

They buy up whatever land they can before the decision is made by "someone" up there. This is one of the issues in land acquisition.

I have heard of similar incidents in case of CIAL Nedumbassery as well ;). This whole "notification/de-notification" business in Karnataka also seems to follow the same pattern.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2013 10:45

Image
Even when building over no-man's land there is stinginess galore in India. They first built a narrow 1+1 lane bridge and now have added another one in Kochi. The Venduruthy bridge connecting to Wl.Island is another narrow one, though built recently to replace an older one. When will we start building big with 50 yrs ahead in mind.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby manish » 08 Feb 2013 11:05

Singha wrote:in BLR they are giving permits for ever more new office complexes off the ORR without ensuring the small service roads can actually cope which they certainly cannot...even the new service roads and flyovers are not good quality....but the BDA is happy to make money from all comers. their bosses in some pure residential VIP areas like kumara krupa, sadashivnagar are kept happy thats all.

Apparently the HYD ORR has some sorta exclusion zone (1km IIRC) around itself on its 150km+ length which can only be used by a select list of industries - at least that is what I have heard.

And yes, the 'Nehru' ORR (GD, it is certainly sickular, at least in name!!) certainly traverses fairly spartan terrain - it envelopes the airport which in itself is fairly far off from the city center.

And now below is some more Shock & Awe, apparently from the local reps of the Delhi Sultanate - again CC to the poster(s) on SSCI:
Image
The convoy is certainly very TFTA in appearance - some bideshi looking RV (Do I see a 'Cerita' logo upfront?) along with a bunch of mean looking Toyota Fortuners riding shotgun,

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2013 11:08

Love the rocky outcropping landscape. Very Arizona-esque.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 08 Feb 2013 12:02

Bade, thanks for the snap on Venduruthy bridge. BTW, I see another blue coloured bridge out there (see the top part of the image). Is it the railway bridge leading towards Vallarpadam Container Terminal?

BTW, I have heard another story. When the Venduruthy bridge was inaugurated (by vehicles passing through it), the British Engineer who built it along with his family parked himself on his boat right below the bridge. The message being set was that the bridge was so strong, and if it indeed collapsed the British Engineer would get killed (plus no point in living after such a shameful episode).

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2013 18:18

Sachin, that is not the brand new Venduruthy Vikrant bridge, with the name change. This is north of it and the Goshree series of 3 bridges. Sorry I confused you. This one connects Vallarpadam Island with Vypin, Bolghatty Islands and Ernakulam on the mainland.

The longish one along the coastline is the new (a year or so old) railway bridge/line to Vallarpadam Terminal.

There are more spectacular aerial views of the city posted on SSC.

subhamoy.das
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby subhamoy.das » 08 Feb 2013 18:29

Bade wrote:This is exactly what PRC is doing, building over virgin land. Very good strategy, before the human foot print develops. It is easy to plan and regulate going forward.


Building infrastructure is the easy part. The hard part is to move the vast worker population to well paying jobs and if that does not happen then these roads will remain empty. US was able to put well paying jobs in the hand of its working class and that generated consumption and drove local business which kept these roads busy. CHINA seems to have reached a point of saturation in job creation and having a aging population and their roads will propably remain empty. INDIA also has a vast work force and is doing the right thing to build just in time to support the growth in jobs as its service driven economy expands and creates mass jobs which means in INDIA these roads will be used right from day one!

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby RamaY » 08 Feb 2013 18:38

Bade wrote:Hardly any vegetation to speak of except shrub land and even more interesting hardly any houses or commercial buildings either. Land acquisition should hardly be a problem in many part of AP and KA or even TN in the south.


Badeji

The land around, especially in the pic area is anywhere between Rs5-20crores per acre right now. This place is about 5-6Km from Gachibowli and the building are coming from that side. apartments are in the range of Rs 50-100L.

When the road was built, the lands were not that expensive though -Approx Rs 10-50L per acre.


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