Indian Roads Thread

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SaiK
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SaiK » 06 Feb 2009 08:59

CalvinH wrote:No enforcement for driving in lane. In our roads you can pretty much drive anywhere without bothering about the lane markings :D . This usually has better throughput given the heterogenous nature of traffic on Indian roads. JMT.

once i asked a rick driver, in casual kannada in bangalore.. why do these people mark these white stripe lines on the road.. just to get the kick out of his mind... he went:
to center his steering on the line. {line mele hogakke}


so, it could be the problem of people trying to understand if they should be driving centering between to lines, or be driving on the line keep his steering just on the line.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Dileep » 06 Feb 2009 10:58

Very true. A good percentage of people DO believe that.

I stopped complaining about lack of lane driving when my own big bro, (high end ITVty, often visits unkilland, highly principled guy) utterly disregarded it, and told me "I drive lanes only in USA". This was on the six lane IRR. No one did lanes anyway. I would venture a good % of the drivers there are in the same social class that of bro too.

So, whom should I blame?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sagar » 06 Feb 2009 11:01

SaiK wrote:
CalvinH wrote:No enforcement for driving in lane. In our roads you can pretty much drive anywhere without bothering about the lane markings :D . This usually has better throughput given the heterogenous nature of traffic on Indian roads. JMT.

once i asked a rick driver, in casual kannada in bangalore.. why do these people mark these white stripe lines on the road.. just to get the kick out of his mind... he went:
to center his steering on the line. {line mele hogakke}


so, it could be the problem of people trying to understand if they should be driving centering between to lines, or be driving on the line keep his steering just on the line.


So maybe what Indian road designers must do is to follow the inclinations of the users and design road markings. Rather than the other way around.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Dileep » 06 Feb 2009 11:08

That is a fantastic idea Sagar. So, following the inclination of users, we would have:

1. Lane markings 1 feet apart, so that the user can pick up any and follow it.
2. Remove the archaic rules like keep left. Drive anywhere.
As a consequence, remove all one-way streets.
3. Remove all no parking signs. Park anywhere.
4. Remove all bus stops. Let busses stop anywhere.
5. Remove all seat belt and helmet rules.
...........

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2009 19:05

Singha wrote:travelling on the outskirts of chennai via adyar to mahabalipuram I found the roads and localities significantly dirtier than similar places in blr.
is it lack of strong municipality or just unruly people?

also if the adyar road that goes near the TIDEL park and joins the ECR is the main road towards puduchery it has too many turns, chokepoints and signals....can bear a direct link from somewhere near TIDEL to ECR.


With the change in the contractor for garbage clearance (from Onyx to Neel Metal Fanalca), the city has simply become dirtier. The new guys simply have no clue and are cutting corners everywhere. Many protests have simply not moved the officials to correct the situation.

There are two roads to Puducherry from Adyar, one is the State Highway popularly called East Coast Road (ECR) whose surfacing is of good quality but the road design itself (single lane either way, steep turns, no facilities for villagers to crossover safely etc.) cause a large number of fatal accidents every day. The other road, from Madhya Kailash junction, which is popularly known as IT Corridor or Old Mahabalipuram Road (OMR) is a work in progress though a considerable length has been surfaced (3 lanes either way). The service roads are not yet ready. The project has picked up some speed recently.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby jkarthik » 06 Feb 2009 19:29

Another route to Puduchchery is through GST road, go down to Tindivanam and then branch off a to a 2 lane road (being 4 laned) to Puduchchery. Cab drivers often use this road to go to Puduchchery and return via ECR, something to to with entry tax. Stretch till Tindivanam is good quality divided highway and you can do decent speeds

Another thing that makes Chennai fundamentally look dirtier is the stupid habit to stick posters and paint anybody's wall with political advertisements. In fact, inner city folks started using granular finishes on the walls to avoid this menace, which indirectly resulted in inner city areas starting to look good. But most govt compounds are (probably deliberately) traditional. Worse, they abound along most main roads, and are inevitably decked with red, black and increasingly blue.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2009 19:33

our indica driver did drive very rashly on the ECR. had some close shaves against oncoming buses. didnt speak english or understand any hindi, so our efforts to calm him down didnt have much impact.
next time I go I need the tamil translation of "please slow down" in my pocket.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sagar » 07 Feb 2009 03:01

Dileep wrote:That is a fantastic idea Sagar. So, following the inclination of users, we would have:

1. Lane markings 1 feet apart, so that the user can pick up any and follow it.
2. Remove the archaic rules like keep left. Drive anywhere.
As a consequence, remove all one-way streets.
3. Remove all no parking signs. Park anywhere.
4. Remove all bus stops. Let busses stop anywhere.
5. Remove all seat belt and helmet rules.
...........


Dileep, you are projecting your thoughts onto mine. Where I did I say all that?
Go back and read what I said.
For Starters,
1. Have no lane markings on a newly surfaced road.
2. Observe Traffic usage and then mark the lanes. For example: You will observe that major junctions in the cities of India, Lanes break down about 100 ft to the approach of traffic lights. Right Only lanes make no sense with Auto rickshaws(typically) crawling in front to get ahead. [The auto guy has probably rented his vehicle and is trying to maximize his investment. No optimal amount of policing will get him to use marked lanes.]
Have no lane markings within 100 ft of the stop light. 2. Right turns and straight greens must be synchronized together.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Mort Walker » 07 Feb 2009 03:07

Observe Traffic usage and then mark the lanes. For example: You will observe that major junctions in the cities of India, Lanes break down about 100 ft to the approach of traffic lights. Right Only lanes make no sense with Auto rickshaws(typically) crawling in front to get ahead. [The auto guy has probably rented his vehicle and is trying to maximize his investment. No optimal amount of policing will get him to use marked lanes.]


:rotfl: Lanes painted everywhere! How about the RTO with batons charge every vehicle Rs. 100 if not in their lane, and if they don't pay, bust a headlight on the vehicle!

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 07 Feb 2009 03:15

The road rules, signage and driver behavior is optimized in India to create a need for a highly trained specialty called "Indian driving" :mrgreen:

The only reason why we as a nation are not willing to change driving conditions, is that a lot of people will be unemployed if India were to adopt western road standards overnight. All bad things that one can report about India in summary boils down to existence of cheap labor which is a result of the excess population.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 07 Feb 2009 03:38

I am not inclined to blame cultural reasons for bad driving habits. Sure, it might have some effect (e.g. jaywalkers disrupting traffic) but it is merely one aspect. It can be overcome. There are many cases where a 'western like setting' and quality infrastructure bred civic sense, e.g. Delhi Metro, where people are comparatively very well mannered, light years from, say, Virar fast at Churchgate in Mumbai.

Fundamentally, homogeneous traffic leads to better traffic flow. Heterogenous traffic always results in traffic problems, because different forms of transport have different speeds and levels of maneuverability. Simply put, take an Indian city road and constrain it to only cars, and the traffic flow will be smoother than the current situation i.e. jaywalkers + cycles + cyclerickshaws + autorickshaws + twowheelers + cars + vans + buses + trucks. That's a recipe for traffic chaos anywhere.

We can't eliminate everything but cars from the road, and we cannot build roads according to western imperatives blindly, but an immediate means of achieving smoother traffic flow is partitioning slow and fast traffic. Phaseout of autorickshaws might be a good start - they're noisy and polluting. Unpowered transport certainly cannot mix with powered, and needs its own dedicated space. That leaves primarily two-wheelers and cars as the primary occupants of the road. Any good examples of 2- and 4-wheeler traffic management, especially in East Asia ?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Mort Walker » 07 Feb 2009 04:28

Suraj,

Perhaps multiples of 3-lanes in both ways everywhere. Two lanes for truck and car traffic and one lane for 2 & 3 wheelers, quadrupeds and bipeds, and of course roving thela-walas. :)

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Harshad » 07 Feb 2009 05:33

Suraj wrote:There are many cases where a 'western like setting' and quality infrastructure bred civic sense, e.g. Delhi Metro, where people are comparatively very well mannered, light years from, say, Virar fast at Churchgate in Mumbai.


Not comparing apples to apples.

What peak and off peak load does each system handle? Whats the fare per unit distance?

Just travel for 30 days from virar to Ccg with an intent to catch the same morning local (2nd class) to make it to your office in time and travel back at the peak time. People do that all their life.

For the stress that they undergo daily, the crowd manner at ccg or vt is much better.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 07 Feb 2009 05:44

Harshad, I'm not referring to anything other than a throughly unscientific personal view of the boarding/disembarking process, and crush load during regular hours. I've lived in both cities for multiple years and have travelled on both examples mentioned, though not necessarily during the busiest hours, and I know which one I would rather deal with. I believe that a well designed and implemented service will engender improved civic behavior from the population, and don't really subscribe to the "there's no point in building it because people lack civic sense and will ruin it" view.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2009 00:59

Discounting cultural aspects to most of our problems would be a mistake IMHO. I shall give a recent experience driving in India, where the roads were in excellent condition and traffic density was low. This was within the limits of Bandipur National park on way from Mysore to Kerala. Surprisingly, the the two lane road was marked and smooth to US standards, good shoulders on either side.

There were clear signs as well requesting people not to sound horns as it was an elephant corridor; despite that each passing vehicle kept sounding the horn at every corner or curve in the road, sometimes at the sight of oncoming traffic who was keeping to his lane and NOT veering into yours as is the customary Indian habit.

I asked my driver to not sound the horn, he kept to the instructions for a while and I noticed that he instinctively started the unnecessary trumpeting when others were heard doing so. I did not press him further with my ideas of driving within a park. Hordes of bike riders where v-rooming around too. Did not make a difference I realized.

Even the wild elephants seem to have adapted to Indian ways and were comfortably exploring the roadside vegetation with many onlookers on foot who had again violated posted rules which forbid them from getting out of their vehicles. There was a busload of people with small kids in tow who were running towards the hills to get the spectacle of the wild herd with their little pachyderms. :evil:

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sagar » 08 Feb 2009 05:04

Bade wrote:Discounting cultural aspects to most of our problems would be a mistake IMHO.


The cardinal rule that must be followed is : Conclusions (lane markings, road design) must fit the data (cultural traits, road usage, types of vehicles etc.).

But in India, in the cities I am aware of, traffic data is being forced to fit the conclusions. No amount of policing or governance can solve this.

An interesting question is: What factors caused the US to choose to drive on the right, and the UK to drive (as Americans put it) on the "wrong side"?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sagar » 08 Feb 2009 05:08

Harshad wrote:
For the stress that they undergo daily, the crowd manner at ccg or vt is much better.


Almost twenty years ago, on a visit to Palika Bazaar in Delhi my local friend was very critical of the cleanliness. As for me, considering the heavy traffic, the cleanliness was exceptional.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Bade » 08 Feb 2009 05:19

If that was a criterion to stick with then it is clear that at all places within human settlements in India the vehicular traffic will need to be separated from the pedestrian one entirely. This can be done with roads on stilts onlee. :eek: The curb level roads should all be pedestrian onlee.

At least this would make all the buddhijeevis in Kerala happy, if the proposed and then canned expressway can be built entirely on stilts and not dividing the state into two halves, ecosystem and all. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sagar » 08 Feb 2009 05:41

Bade wrote:If that was a criterion to stick with then it is clear that at all places within human settlements in India the vehicular traffic will need to be separated from the pedestrian one entirely. This can be done with roads on stilts onlee. :eek: The curb level roads should all be pedestrian onlee.

At least this would make all the buddhijeevis in Kerala happy, if the proposed and then canned expressway can be built entirely on stilts and not dividing the state into two halves, ecosystem and all. :twisted:


You will be immensely pleased to know that NYC, Philadelphia, Chicago undertook such stilts to constructed elevated roads and train tracks.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Surya » 08 Feb 2009 07:22

Oh come on - if you remove autorickshaws (mumbai) what do you expect people who do not use 2 wheelers and cannot afford to take a taxi???

There are millions of people who depend on rickshaws eliminating rickshaws is not the answer.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby chetak » 08 Feb 2009 14:18

Mort Walker wrote:
Observe Traffic usage and then mark the lanes. For example: You will observe that major junctions in the cities of India, Lanes break down about 100 ft to the approach of traffic lights. Right Only lanes make no sense with Auto rickshaws(typically) crawling in front to get ahead. [The auto guy has probably rented his vehicle and is trying to maximize his investment. No optimal amount of policing will get him to use marked lanes.]


:rotfl: Lanes painted everywhere! How about the RTO with batons charge every vehicle Rs. 100 if not in their lane, and if they don't pay, bust a headlight on the vehicle!



Mort Walker ji,

Already being done in Bangalore.

Many of these traffic cop fcukers carry blackberrys by which they log your "offense" online and the ticket lands up in your home a few weeks later.

The best part is that your car could have been off road for months because you were abroad!

You have absolutely no idea when and where you did "lane breaking"

Marvels of hi tech, they have just re discovered a reliable revenue stream! because of reduced pilferage.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby jkarthik » 09 Feb 2009 14:20

Don't remember if this was posted. Work is starting on an elevated road in Chennai, that will link the Marina beach to Elliot's and then ECR. 9.7 km long, elevated at 5.5 m, along the coast.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/25/stories/2009012558090100.htm

I remember that this idea was discussed in 2002 or so on this very thread.



Work on another elevated road connecting Chennai port to Maduraivoyal has been kicked off by MMS recently.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/28/stories/2009012858270300.htm

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SSridhar » 09 Feb 2009 16:10

jkarthik wrote:Don't remember if this was posted. Work is starting on an elevated road in Chennai, that will link the Marina beach to Elliot's and then ECR. 9.7 km long, elevated at 5.5 m, along the coast.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/25/stories/2009012558090100.htm

I remember that this idea was discussed in 2002 or so on this very thread.


There is a lot of opposition from environmentalists to this project.


Work on another elevated road connecting Chennai port to Maduraivoyal has been kicked off by MMS recently.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/28/stories/2009012858270300.htm


This is part of the port connectivity project undertaken all over the country at different ports. Recently, the truckers struck work because of the poor access to ports in Chennai. That Maduravoyal stretch has to be traversed to be believed if roads and traffic can be so badly managed. So is the case with the Ennore port nearby. Absolutely pathetic.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Raj » 08 Apr 2009 04:11

NHAI relaxes shortlisting norms to lure more bidders
To revive developers’ interest in bidding for road projects under the National Highways Development Programme (NHDP), the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI) has relaxed the norms governing the procedure for shortlisting bidders for certain projects under NHDP phase III and V.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby manish » 18 May 2009 15:25

There has been a terrible accident on NH-48 linking Bangalore to Mangalore. A KSRTC Volvo plunged headlong into the back of a parked truck carrying timber. The truck had broken down and apparently parked on the edge of the road , with no lights or indicators on.

Makes me sad and angry looking at those pictures - it is a route that I have travelled a countless times on, and given the state of the roads there and the behavior of the drivers who ply them, accidents have become a near daily affair.

The link is below - there is no blood or gore, but the tragic and horrific way in which the Volvo is crushed is sure to send a chill down your spine. Please be careful. May the departed souls rest in peace.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=60011

The NH-48 needs urgent upgradation on the Hassan-MLR stretch.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sachin » 18 May 2009 16:03

manish wrote:There has been a terrible accident on NH-48 linking Bangalore to Mangalore. A KSRTC Volvo plunged headlong into the back of a parked truck carrying timber. The truck had broken down and apparently parked in the middle of the road at a curve, with no lights or indicators on.

Sad indeed. Seeing the pictures, I get a feeling that casualty would be quite high in this case. Why goto Mangalore, even in Bangalore city I have seen this happening. From my observation the trucks to break down are generally the garbade trucks. The drivers just park the vehicle right on the middle of the road, no safety precautions etc. etc.

It is only when I see these sort of horrific crimes, that I some how wish for "street-side justice". Just get hold of the truck driver, beat him black and blue. Leave alone driving a truck he should not even be able to use his hands for his activities in the toilet :evil: . The standard rhetoric of the driver is a "garib aadmi" with no good education etc. should be just kept aside. These issues only require common sense.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby manish » 18 May 2009 16:11

Sachin wrote:
manish wrote:There has been a terrible accident on NH-48 linking Bangalore to Mangalore. A KSRTC Volvo plunged headlong into the back of a parked truck carrying timber. The truck had broken down and apparently parked in the middle of the road at a curve, with no lights or indicators on.

Sad indeed. Seeing the pictures, I get a feeling that casualty would be quite high in this case. Why goto Mangalore, even in Bangalore city I have seen this happening. From my observation the trucks to break down are generally the garbade trucks. The drivers just park the vehicle right on the middle of the road, no safety precautions etc. etc.

It is only when I see these sort of horrific crimes, that I some how wish for "street-side justice". Just get hold of the truck driver, beat him black and blue. Leave alone driving a truck he should not even be able to use his hands for his activities in the toilet :evil: . The standard rhetoric of the driver is a "garib aadmi" with no good education etc. should be just kept aside. These issues only require common sense.

I just edited my post once I re-read the news article - it wasn't the middle of the road but the edge of the road appartently - but that doesn't change it much because that road is narrow(2-lane) and winding and full of haphazardly parked trucks and stranded LPG bullet tankers.

In Bangalore, the stretch from Nelamangala to YPR is another truck infested Highway of Death. Our roads urgently need rest areas/parking bays at regular intervals on major highways at least. These kind of incidents have become far too common.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Dileep » 18 May 2009 17:40

Isn't it one reason why the reflective triangle is mandated for commercial vehicles. I see a lot of trucks with the triangle on both front and rear right. Quite useful if installed properly.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby manish » 18 May 2009 18:02

Dileep wrote:Isn't it one reason why the reflective triangle is mandated for commercial vehicles. I see a lot of trucks with the triangle on both front and rear right. Quite useful if installed properly.

Dileep saar, the truck involved in this particular incident did not have one at the back (or may be it fell off during the course of the accident, who knows). Trucks carrying oversized cargo such as timber and iron rods etc rarely seem to carry those - often a symbolic 'red rag' will be tied to one of the cargo elements jutting out and that's about it.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Gaurav_S » 23 May 2009 19:29


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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SK Mody » 25 May 2009 01:47

Some bad news. Veer oilyappaM has apparently been appointed minister for surface transport.
Cabinet ...

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby putnanja » 25 May 2009 05:14

SK Mody wrote:Some bad news. Veer oilyappaM has apparently been appointed minister for surface transport.
Cabinet ...


now where does that link mention that Veerappa Moily will be surface transport minister. Even if he is, he is much better than TR Baalu who has nothing to show for his 5 years as a minister.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SK Mody » 28 May 2009 01:34

I read it in TOI. Telegraph reports it as a possibility here

Rediff reports it as likely here

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby SSridhar » 29 May 2009 08:24

Veerappa Moily is Minister is Minister for Law & Justice replacing H.R. Bharadwaj.

Kamal Nath is Minister for Road Transport & Highways.

List of Portfolios of Ministers here

I agree with RaviBG that any minister would be better than TR Baaalu.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Sriman » 29 May 2009 09:22

manish wrote:There has been a terrible accident on NH-48 linking Bangalore to Mangalore. A KSRTC Volvo plunged headlong into the back of a parked truck carrying timber. The truck had broken down and apparently parked on the edge of the road , with no lights or indicators on.

Makes me sad and angry looking at those pictures - it is a route that I have travelled a countless times on, and given the state of the roads there and the behavior of the drivers who ply them, accidents have become a near daily affair.

The link is below - there is no blood or gore, but the tragic and horrific way in which the Volvo is crushed is sure to send a chill down your spine. Please be careful. May the departed souls rest in peace.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=60011
The NH-48 needs urgent upgradation on the Hassan-MLR stretch.

The criminal neglect that piece of road has suffered makes me sick :evil:
Week old news but another KSRTC bus overturned near Nippani (Belgaum district) and 5 people (Infy trainees on their way to Pune apparently) killed. Overspeeding blamed.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1257937
It's been long since i travelled on KSRTC buses but they used to have fairly safe drivers compared to private operators. It's just so sad to see same pattern of accidents repeating year after year. Not a year passes without buses falling into gorges and reservoirs.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby vsudhir » 29 May 2009 14:22

I sincerely hope Sri Kamal Nath will bring his legendary toughness to the new job and get cracking on countless projects delayed, agencies headless and contracts hanging fire in the crucial roads sector.

The NS_EW project has been hanging fire for the entire duration of the last govt. Heck, even the golden quad is not 100% complete, stuck at some 95%+.

The phase III program could do with some firm will overseeing progress.

Welcome Kamal Nath ji. We needed ya here!

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby kancha » 02 Jun 2009 17:33

FWIW

Roads in West Bengal horrible and dangerous: Top British diplomat

This government has been there for the past 32 years. But there’s not even a decent road between two cities of West Bengal. The condition of roads is horrible and dangerous


The same story was also carried in today's HT.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Dileep » 03 Jun 2009 10:46

In communism, people and material don't need to travel, so no roads needed onlee.

Look at Pyongyang, the great capital of the greatest nation! All those 12 lane roads, and no vehicles. We are better onlee. Why build roads when there are no vehicles?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 27 Jun 2009 21:15

NHAI proposes combining toll, annuity payment
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/nhai-proposes-combining-toll-annuity-payment/362281/
Under the proposed model, a concessionaire will get the viability gap funding (VGF) — the gap between the cost of the road and the expected return — up to 40 per cent of the project cost from NHAI. That is the maximum a company is allowed under the BOT toll scheme. In case the developer needs more than 40 per cent VGF, it has to make its own investment.


A innovative idea. :) :) :)

Suraj
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 30 Jun 2009 06:39

Bandra-Worli Sealink opened. Note that only the one section (2x2 lanes) is open. The parallel section (another four lanes) will open in a few months:
HT e-paper article on inauguration, with pictures
Another picture at dusk
Daytime panoramic view of central Mumbai and sea link


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