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Indian Roads Thread

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M_Joshi
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby M_Joshi » 14 Apr 2018 18:26

Suraj wrote:What is the point of that argument ? When we had bad roads, we had high accident rates. With much better quality roads now than we did 10-15 years ago, we still have high accident rates. Logically, that indicates that driver sense is not linked to state of road. If you're appealing to emotion, i.e. "It won't matter to the dead or family", maybe not, but that's a different discussion within the realm of legal and not road infrastructure discussion, which is the topic of this thread.

We are a federal republic. So there's an important distinction to be aware of here. We have a union ministry for road construction. But driver licensing falls within the purview of states, who run their own RTOs. So does law and order, which includes traffic policing (we do not have a federal highway traffic police). We have a system in place, with certain entities responsible for certain things. Improving driver culture, though effective implementation of testing and licencing, is a state-level task. It is not within the purview of Mr.Gadkari's work. He's doing what he has been empowered to do, extremely well.


Just putting out a thought that I have in mind. Readers with access to ears in corridors of power may make the word reach there. The idea is about creation of a separate Special Traffic Police Unit under Central Govt. Control with jurisdiction in NHAIs all over the country. A few details are as follows:
India has approx. 50,000 kms of highways under NHAI. Centre under Transport Ministry should institute a specially trained Traffic Police Unit wholly under it's control with working as follows. The calculation of Budget for 5 years is as follows:
> Out of 50,000 kms let's leave out 10,000 kms as low traffic > leaves 40,000 kms.
> Out of 24 hours in 2 shifts of different Drivers/Policemen the vehicle will be driven for approx. 12 hours at the avg. speed of 40 km/h > 480 kms ~ 500 kms one way/ 2 shifts = 125 kms both ways ~ 100 kms approx. distance for each vehicle one side twice a day.
> 40000 kms/ 100 kms = 400 vehicle units required all over the country to comb 40,000 kms all over the country twice a day.
> Capital Costs:
a >> Vehicles : 400 x Rs. 10,00,000 mid range SUV = Rs. 4,00,00,00,000 = Rs. 400 crores.
b >> Equipment like Dash Cams, GPS systems, Reporting Systems, Emergency Response / vehicle : 400 x Rs. 50,000 = Rs. 2 crores.
c >> 5 Central Zone & Reporting Offices with GPS tracking, Admin etc. : 5 x Rs. 10 crores = Rs. 50 crores.
> Annual Running Costs:
d >> Salaries : 4 policemen / vehicle in 2 shifts with 2 in each shift : 4 x Rs. 30,000/month x 12 months x 400 : Rs. 57.6 crores. Admin Salary costs per Central Zone : 5 x 50 people average per zone x Rs. 25,000 average salary x 12 months : Rs. 7.5 crores
e >> Diesel : 500 kms / day with mileage of 15 km/L x Rs. 60/ Ltr x 365 days x 400 units : Rs. 29.2 crores
f >> Maintenance of Vehicles : Rs. 20 crores annually approx.
g >> Maintenance of Equipment : Rs. 5 crores annually approx.

Cost for 5 years : a + b + c + 5*(d + e +f + g) : 400 + 2 + 50 + 5*(65.1 + 29.2 + + 20 + 5) = Rs. 1048.5 crores for 5 years.

This whole thing will cost us approx. 200-250 crores / annum annualised for the next 5 years.

.
Most of the accidents that happen in India are due to human error. Most of the reasons are :
> Driving on Wrong side of the Lane.
> Overloading. Riding in trucks etc. Like the accident in Pune recently.
> Slower vehicles like trucks/tractors driving on the right lane. Cars overtake zig zag from left & usually are part of accidents.
> Rash driving by cars/ buses etc.
> Not following lane discipline.
> Parking on roads, especially by trucks/trailers etc.
> Not using enough reflectors/ proper lights by slow moving vehicles.
I myself have had many near death experiences due to many of the factors above & countless people die/get injured daily all over the country.

The job of this Task Force Police would be to force discipline on NHs by warning/ challaning offenders of Road Rules. People do not fear Law but they fear Rule of Law. If anybody has been to Chandigarh they can witness how disciplined the traffic in Chandigarh is as compared to any other Indian city because of the tight fist of the Traffic Police. Even in Ahmedabad I saw bikers jumping Red Lights in front of the Traffic Policeman standing & watching there like a wimp. For a college boy 1st time our of Chandigarh to another major India city this was a shock. In Chandigarh I myself have been challaned for jumping on Yellow Light leave alone a Red light. Subsequently, the accidents are also low here. Same thing needs to be done on our NHs as well. These Patrol Vehicles patrolling 100 kms a day need to find offenders & punish them hard with challans. Because of Centralized National Database of this Police Force, repeat offenders will be forced to give up their Driving Privileges. Dashcams & Mic Technology linked to Central ZOne will eliminate or drastically decrease the bribe culture as well. Plus a decent earning of Rs. 5,000 per vehicle (easily doable on our NHs) per day from Challans will result in approx. Rs. 75 crores income per annum which can easily support 40% of the expenses of this project annually.

saip
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby saip » 14 Apr 2018 19:56

About the lane discipline. Do people know that they have to drive between the lines and not straddle the line? In HYD when I take a taxi from the airport I always notice that the driver practically drives straddling the line keeping his imaginary nose wheel on the line as if he is preparing to take off. My exhortations to stay within the lane only bring a look of stupid surprise. Obviously the drivers do not undergo any driver education. That may be the first thing to start.

Katare
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Katare » 14 Apr 2018 20:23

The whol package for road transport ministry should be -build properly designed road, create safety standards for auto industry, educate/screen drivers, regulate traffic and provide timely assistance to accident victims. There is scope for improvement everywhere imho.

Impropper road design is a major issue that generously contributes to very high accident rate on Indian roads. Speeds are increasing and we have so many new and very young drivers coming on every year, add little or no enforcement/bribing and you have got a royal mess. An intelligent road design minimizes chances for yahoo drivers to endanger other drivers, something like fly by wire software controls yahoo pilots from killing themselves.

Karthik S
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Karthik S » 14 Apr 2018 20:37

With regards to road designs, I believe we need to build more exit ramps. Far too many accidents on highways is when vehicles are trying to merge from arterial roads. I know we don't have as much free space as Khan to build good circular ramps, but need to come up with designs and build as much as possible.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 14 Apr 2018 20:37

States are not going to easily give up control over RTOs and traffic policing . Revenue source ...

Vasu
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Vasu » 16 Apr 2018 10:52

Suraj wrote:What is the point of that argument ? When we had bad roads, we had high accident rates. With much better quality roads now than we did 10-15 years ago, we still have high accident rates. Logically, that indicates that driver sense is not linked to state of road. If you're appealing to emotion, i.e. "It won't matter to the dead or family", maybe not, but that's a different discussion within the realm of legal and not road infrastructure discussion, which is the topic of this thread.

We are a federal republic. So there's an important distinction to be aware of here. We have a union ministry for road construction. But driver licensing falls within the purview of states, who run their own RTOs. So does law and order, which includes traffic policing (we do not have a federal highway traffic police). We have a system in place, with certain entities responsible for certain things. Improving driver culture, though effective implementation of testing and licencing, is a state-level task. It is not within the purview of Mr.Gadkari's work. He's doing what he has been empowered to do, extremely well.


Now that it is clear that this thread is for physical road infrastructure primarily so will focus on that only.

Appreciate what Katare, Saip and Karthik S have said. It will be a herculean task to bring all of these factors together, but its very possible and achievable in our lifetimes, for which it is critical the fractured surface transport governance and ownership structure works as one.

Gadkari is doing excellent work, and I am only trying to convey that his focus has been on improving the human aspect as much as the physical aspect because he also understands "driver sense" is a critical factor in improving the overall quality of India's roads. I'm surprised some are being so dismissive of traffic deaths.

India loses $58 billion annually due to road accidents: UN study

JayS
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby JayS » 16 Apr 2018 11:52

Suraj wrote:States are not going to easily give up control over RTOs and traffic policing . Revenue source ...


Road tax should be brought under the purview of GST as much as possible. The rest should be linked to Centralized law system - one Nation one System. IMO, Central govt can try model that they have for Passport for RTO services (and indeed a whole lot other public services). Let the private sector do the mud moving efficiently while a handful of govt officers to overseer the system.

Not going to be easy but a steady efforts like GST can make it happen eventually. We have seen the Road transport bill has been in limbo for many years now. Of coarse the states will be assured that they will get back the money as their state share.

Re driving manners, I feel just enforcing rules is not enough, nor its practical. Majority of Indians, including majority of so called "highly educated" people do not really know proper rules, why they are framed in that way and what could happen if they are not followed. A simple example, most of the folks do not know the concept of "blind spots" while driving or even walking on/crossing the roads. So many accidents happen in India because a person steps down from a bus and tries to go across it from the front immediately when the driver would never be able to see someone right in front of a bus. We need a massive campaign on national level to create awareness in current adult population and start teaching this in schools so upcoming generations will be trained properly. Showing them sample accident videos and telling carefully scripted real life anecdotes to highlight a rule, how its was flaunted and how it caused a tragedy, IMO is good way to increase sensitivity in people's mind. Fear for life is a big motivator. All professional drivers can be forced to go through a compulsory training which includes this kind of content. All Private companies can be told to give training to their workforce as a "Safety" training. So on and so forth. I am sure more imaginative minds can come up with better things to make it happen. I am also sure that it can be done in relatively lower cost than what would be needed to force the rules on 1.3B ignorant population.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 16 Apr 2018 12:15

Vasu wrote:Gadkari is doing excellent work, and I am only trying to convey that his focus has been on improving the human aspect as much as the physical aspect because he also understands "driver sense" is a critical factor in improving the overall quality of India's roads. I'm surprised some are being so dismissive of traffic deaths.

No one's being "dismissive of traffic deaths", or "ignoring the humans side of accidents" here. All of us have seen a bad accident on the roads. You are constructing a strawman here.

However, this is BRF, not a corner shop nukkad area. We are expected to be better informed here, and to hold a conversation at a far more informed level . We are a federal system, and are a nation of rules and laws. Certain things come under certain entities. It is a defined constitutional separation of powers. No purpose is to be served by assigning notional responsibility or blame for something to some party who - by law - have no control over it.

It is a very dangerous and misinformed thing to do. It impacts politics because lay people ignorantly blame a party who have no control over what they're being blamed for, as they work according to constitutional separation of powers. But on BRF, we are not supposed to parrot such lay ignorance; we are NOT supposed to be idly be victims of emotional rhetoric.

Please don't repeat the same line of argument, after having been explained that the central ministry of roads has no control over driver education and road traffic management , both of which are state powers. There's nothing to be served by trying to manipulate emotions. It's dangerous, and leads to a propagation of false beliefs regarding who is responsible for what. That results in politics being impacted by popular ignorance. This site should at the very least, serve to avoid propagating such ignorance.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Vasu » 16 Apr 2018 14:09

Had been meaning to post this earlier. R Jagannathan's article in Swarajya.

Gadkari’s Ministry Moves A Step Closer Towards Tolling Without Toll Plazas

A proposal by Nitin Gadkari’s Union Road Transport and Highways Ministry to charge tolls only for the distance travelled by a vehicle on national highways has the potential to revolutionise road taxation in India.

A report in Business Standard says that the ministry, in conjunction with the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI), will be “geo-fencing” the Delhi-Mumbai Highway to track the distance travelled by a vehicle on the highway. The toll to be collected will be based on the distance travelled on the toll road, not a fixed one.

“Geo-fencing” is about using satellite tracking to create virtual geographical boundaries within which the movement of vehicles can be tracked and tolled based on RFID (radio frequency ID) signals.

The proposal is actually more radical than it sounds as it can be extended to collect tolls in areas other than highways. Currently, tolls are collected as congestion charges in business districts (as in cities like London) or at city entry and exit points (as in Mumbai and other cities); with geo-fencing, this charge, or any charge, can be levied on any vehicle within any geographical area, whether in cities or highways.

India can leapfrog the world in road pricing by making users pay for the amount of roads used, rather than using blunt instruments like high vehicle registration charges, road cesses, and entry and exit charges (at the five entry/exit points of Mumbai, the charge applies whether you just cross the point, or drive deep into the congested parts of the city, causing more congestion).

Geo-fencing – if it begins to work well – solves all issues of road pricing in one leap: it can reduce congestion, charge vehicles according to usage and reduce jams at toll plazas by effectively abolishing the need for them over time. Since the payment has to be made on the basis of satellite-tracked road usage, it follows that the payment can be made electronically, either through a pre-paid card or even a post-paid bill that comes home every month – like an electricity bill.

Supratik
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Supratik » 20 Apr 2018 20:33

First phase of Delhi-Meerut expressway is more or less completed (source youtube).

Suraj
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 20 Apr 2018 21:49

Is this the Eastern Peripheral Expressway ? Looks pretty impressive - 6 lanes in each direction too:

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Supratik » 20 Apr 2018 21:58

Yes

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Supratik » 20 Apr 2018 22:02

It is actually 3 lanes on each side with provision for 4 lanes. The interchanges have been made keeping that in mind. So 4 lanes plus 2 exit lanes = 6 lanes.

Suraj
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 20 Apr 2018 22:20

Thanks. That came up fast! EPE was lagging behind WPE at one time, but it's already almost done.

hanumadu
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby hanumadu » 21 Apr 2018 05:19

Finally! There was talk of it being inaugurated for last independence day itself.
What is the target date for WPE. Hopefully they will provide some relief from smog and traffic congestion.

Supratik
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Supratik » 21 Apr 2018 15:49

The elevated link to Delhi-Meerut expressway through Gaziabad is also ready.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU1mxWeH1Q8

arshyam
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby arshyam » 21 Apr 2018 20:16

Interestingly, it's a six-lane highway built on top of single pillars.

Supratik
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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Supratik » 21 Apr 2018 23:13



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