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India's Power Sector

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JTull
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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby JTull » 09 Mar 2018 06:07


JTull
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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby JTull » 09 Mar 2018 06:30

60% Capacity Factor wind turbine

Lots of interesting info on future very large turbines.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby guru.shetty » 09 Mar 2018 08:58

This was California's yesterday's demand. The green line indicated actual demand and blue dotted line indicates the forecast done for the demand an hour before the actual event. As you can see, the forecast is very accurate. You can see this for almost every day, and the result is always that the forecast matches the demand very closely.

Image


This was California's yesterday's supply. The green patch is renewables - mainly solar. And you can see how during the day, Solar pretty much meets half demand. Since the forecast happens an hour ahead, it gives enough time to ramp up natural gas power stations.

Image

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 09 Mar 2018 11:09

Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?


This is precisely what some posters are saying along with the solar-jihadis world wide.

Katare wrote:I think the general trend is for power contracts to go towards fuel neutral bidding, whoever can produce at the cheapest rate for the specific need at the specific place would get the contract.

There is another factor that works in favor of solar which is causing the utility companies, at least in ECDP countries, to diversify their portfolio with renewable energy. The cost of fuel is fixed, it's availability per year is fixed and capital cost is fixed too. This offers kind of certainty that is not available with the conventional fuels. This predictability is a big factor in decisions of some of the utilities, which are as conservative as it gets, to have a look at the solar option.


As I've said before it makes complete sense to have solar to handle your peak load during the day, but it is simply not viable with battery-storage in the near term without significant technological breakthrough. The bidding that is going on, and we've seen it with coal, NG, and nuclear is made with false assumptions and it is never as cheap as expected. Once the power plants are constructed and operate for a year, we'll know the actual costs.

Katare wrote:As for as subsidies are concerned, they'll get phased out as economy of scale is achieved and global supply chain is developed. Cost of solar cell have dropped 75% in last 7 years and projected to fall another 50-70%. This will allow the solar industry to stand on their own feet in next few years. Future Tesla car buyers would be loosing subsidies this year or next, as soon as company passes milestone of fixed number of cars sold. I don't think people who are buying a $50K- $150K car are going to walkaway for $5K of govt subsidies, at least the stock market doesn't think so.


PVs as we know it, even with incremental panel efficiency increase, will indeed come down in price, but.....there are many new technological developments that will use light harvesting techniques similar to what is seen in nature with plants. These panels will happen, but they will not be cheap.

Katare wrote:Watt or Mega Watt is the unit of power, which is used to denote the size of the generation equipment not energy. So 156 GW produced is incorrect, throughput of energy is given in the plant load factors, which depends on the electricity demand, cost of generation and capacity.

You don't need to convert energy units to Joules and than divide that by time, you can simply divide the units produced by the time (in hours) and get your answer.

Energy = Power*Time

115,961 MU/31*24 = 155.8 GW (if we run at 100% plant load factor this is what we would need).

So more than half the installed capacity is unutilized because there is no demand in the night, off season months, plants need maintenance, transmission system breaks down, can't sell because cost is too high, fuel not available (gas fired plants) or customer can not use it.

Not sure what is the point of it, though?

If I get my electricity at affordable rates what do I care if solar plant is running at 15% and Coal is running at 60%. To maintain grid integrity, base loads would need Thermal/nuclear plants while renewable would provide rest of the demand. Not sure why do you keep repeating same thing again and again?


Joules are used to demonstrate a point about energy and give an energy reference.
100 gram chocolate = 2 KJ
1 stick of dynamite = 1 MJ
1 ton of TNT = 4 GJ

Knowing installed capacity and what is being used tells us the limitations of the energy sources besides the non-utilization. It tells the CEA and Power Ministry how well electrical energy generation is working. Nuclear power can easily have a plant load factor of >90% if wanted instead of 70%.

The point in all of this is to understand how much energy is actually being used and generated. And to understand the difference between peak power and average power.

Your electricity rates are helped by using solar during the day for peak load and thermal, hydro and nuclear for base load. Your rate will come down more if the base load is operating above a plant load factor of 70%. My point is if you replace your base load with solar, then it will be trouble.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 09 Mar 2018 11:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 09 Mar 2018 11:18

Rishirishi wrote:My calculation has already taken into account panel efficiency. Maths is simple. A unit of energy costs Rs2,5 this is a FACT. Unfourtunately solar power is only available during daytime. Hence you have to add the storage cost, for any power consumed after dawn.

Now the cost of storing the power and using it later is 200 dollars per Mwh. This gives a price of Rs 12,8 per unit. Fortunatly battery costs are falling very fast. Some predict the power storage cost to drop down to Rs 2-3 per unit.

The interesting part is that Hydro power can be used when solar is not available. This is of course in addition to the wind power. Both Wind and Solar are cheaper then coal.


It does not mater if solar energy cost is Rs. 0.0 KWHr. Solar power will simply not meet the power requirement of the country. Solar power is for peak load only. Natural gas and nuclear must be installed where they have at least 70% efficiency.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby disha » 09 Mar 2018 12:04

guru.shetty wrote:
This was California's yesterday's supply. The green patch is renewables - mainly solar. And you can see how during the day, Solar pretty much meets half demand. Since the forecast happens an hour ahead, it gives enough time to ramp up natural gas power stations.



Guru'ji., thanks for the images., proves Mort's and my points - that Solar is best for peak load. One needs gas generators for quick ramp up (within an hour) and the rest base load comes from Coal (yes, Coal) in US/CA., but for India must come from nuclear + coal power.

Note that electricity is generated on demand. You switch on a light bulb, at that very instant somebody across the grid generates power to supply your light bulb.

Again why the forecast and the ramp up matches the curve perfectly? Because of this 5 rules:


1. A very advanced electric grid is a Smart Grid.

2. A smart Grid is an efficient battery.

3. A smart Grid is an efficient power source.

Thus, A smart grid is both a battery and a power source.

4. Smart Grid is pervasive and hence Smart grid is ubiquitous.

5. Smart Grid is invisible.


Solar will exist only in the presence of the smart grid.

It is *useless* to pair solar with "water pumped gravity dam battery"., such batteries are costly and inefficient and not available.

However it is better to invest in smart grid. That means efficient transformers, efficient power lines and efficient & digitized meters which provide instant information on where the electricity is generated and where the electricity is consumed.

During day, Solar power generated is pushed on to smart grid, from the perspective of solar panel, they are saving it into a battery. (battery)

During night, power is consumed from the smart grid, again the smart grid is a power source.

It is the many pieces of the smart grid which figure out what to do with the power generated, where to route it and when consumed, where to consume it from. It is ubiquitous, that is every house is part of a smart grid and is invisible., there is no person sitting on the transformer trying to push the electrons in the right direction.

Solar CANNOT exist without a smart grid

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby JTull » 09 Mar 2018 14:18

Mort Walker wrote:
Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?


This is precisely what some posters are saying along with the solar-jihadis world wide.


No one is saying that, atleast not on this forum. And please stop calling everyone who you're afraid wouldn't agree with your argument as a jihadi. You're making good points, and no one is disagreeing so stop seeing demons.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 10 Mar 2018 02:17

Mort Walker wrote:
Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?


This is precisely what some posters are saying along with the solar-jihadis world wide.



Could you point me to the post(s)?

At BRF at least we need to move beyond points that are generally agreed upon by majority. No point in arguing against "Solar as base load is feasible" even if someone said so. We should not allow discussion to be hijacked by a post by some troll, uninformed or jihadi.

Also note that PV cell efficiency is limited by hard stop of technology. Unless someone comes up with better material, there are no incremental gains in efficiency of cells/unit radiation. Any gain that comes would come from better panel design, concentration, cooling, cleaning and distributions.
Last edited by Katare on 10 Mar 2018 02:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 10 Mar 2018 02:22

guru.shetty wrote:This was California's yesterday's demand. The green line indicated actual demand and blue dotted line indicates the forecast done for the demand an hour before the actual event. As you can see, the forecast is very accurate. You can see this for almost every day, and the result is always that the forecast matches the demand very closely.

Image


This was California's yesterday's supply. The green patch is renewables - mainly solar. And you can see how during the day, Solar pretty much meets half demand. Since the forecast happens an hour ahead, it gives enough time to ramp up natural gas power stations.

Image


Nice graphs Guru ji,

Energy storage with renewable is trying to eat a chunk out of the second hump on your bottom graph. Storage of 2-4 hours of storage could provide Solar energy additional room to grow and also help in bringing down ramp rates to reasonable numbers.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Mar 2018 04:05

Katare wrote:Also note that PV cell efficiency is limited by hard stop of technology. Unless someone comes up with better material, there are no incremental gains in efficiency of cells/unit radiation. Any gain that comes would come from better panel design, concentration, cooling, cleaning and distributions.


There is a lot of research into PVs in the US, Germany and China and we will see incremental gains of 1/2 percent every few years or so. Material science is making a big push at the atomic level for the purposes of mass production. That said, we will see a big improvements in light collection from advances in condensed matter physics. Quantum efficiencies will improve dramatically and by 2030 there will likely be big breakthroughs to make panels nearly 40% efficient. Until then, spending on current PV technology should be tempered with this in mind.

Sunlight Funnel Research

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Mar 2018 00:24

One thing to keep in mind is that the base of the graph Guru Shetty posted starts at 14000 MW. Not zero. It also does not show the roughly 5000 MW of rooftop solar behind the meter. What this means is that there is a lot of remaining demand that solar can 'eat into' over time. California also has about 78,000 MW of generation capacity so there is a fearsome amount of reserve competing for that ramping service.

Calculations have been made that VRE + Despatchable Renewable + Nuclear puts California at about 50%-55% renewable right now. This was the original target for 2030!

Indias climate has similar levels of sun as California and eventually 40%-50 of our demand to can be met with PV daytime solar without any need for storage. A 4 Hour storage system for evening could get PV to above 80% coverage in India. This is not counting wind. A 500,000 MWhr battery system (we can do other tech, notably hydel pumped) would cost about 500,000 x $50,000/MHhr(eventual cost) = $25 Billion +/-

If GOI was wise it would subsidize a world class battery manufacturing capacity for about 50,000 MWhr per year. China for reference is planning to have about 150,000 MWhr of battery manufacturing. Need to start right now.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Mar 2018 01:18

JTull wrote:60% Capacity Factor wind turbine

Lots of interesting info on future very large turbines.


these are offshore turbines right.

One of GOI's targets out there is 10,000 MW of offshore wind turbines. I had done a calculation earlier that just the Bay of Khambhat has enough space to satisfy all India power demand 2-3 times over. Have not heard of any recent bids or progress on this sector.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby manjgu » 13 Mar 2018 09:13

Just met a v high official of the Pakal Dul project..he said project on course and GOI is fast tracking ( giving danda) the work..all tendering complete .. dam..powerhouse.. only tender for TBM remains..if the TBM can work with existing geology it will further shorten the time.. they have timeline of 66 months to complete .. 1000 MW with almost 20% of storage capacity of what is allowed to India as per IWT. Bursar dam work not on course..

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby disha » 18 Mar 2018 23:02

I laid down 5 maxims (or rules). Repeating here:

1. A very advanced electric grid is a Smart Grid.

2. A smart Grid is an efficient battery.

3. A smart Grid is an efficient power source.

Thus, A smart grid is both a battery and a power source.

4. Smart Grid is pervasive and hence Smart grid is ubiquitous.

5. Smart Grid is invisible.


And here is the link:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/smart-meters-to-rationalise-electricity-consumption-in-india/articleshow/63347276.cms

Reproducing the article in full:

Smart meters to rationalise electricity consumption in India
By Malini Goyal, ET Bureau|Updated: Mar 18, 2018, 03.32 PM IST

Come May, you can get smarter. You can operate your home appliances remotely by just installing a smart electricity meter. Soon, you would also be able to check which appliance is consuming more electricity and synchronise usage of power-hungry equipment, such as geysers, with off-peak hours, when pricing would be lower.

The Internet of Things (IoT) solution would be made possible for the first time in India by Tata Power Delhi Distribution Ltd (TPDDL), a joint venture of the Delhi goveernment and Tata Power, which is set to install smart meters and also launch a mobile app for Android (to start with). In the first phase, 2.5 lakh smart meters would be installed in north and north-west Delhi. By 2025,16 lakh smart meters would be operational.

Smart Discom

Consumers need not buy a smart appliance but can use their existing appliances and still automate their homes. With smart meters and the back-end infrastructure of a smart-grid network, even the distribution company would start behaving smartly.

In future, during peak-demand hours, consumers would get a message on their mobile phones offering them incentives to lower unit consumption. During off-peak hours, consumers would get a message incentivising consumption — helping in optimum usage of power-hungry appliances such as geysers or batteries of electric vehicles. The smart model, which could be tied to a dynamic tariff, would help domestic and institutional consumers.

Domestic consumers, as of now, mostly get a flat tariff throughout the day, with no distinction between peak and off-peak prices.

“Right now, there is one-way traffic between us and the consumers. With a smart grid and smart meters, it will be two-way communications, ” says Praveer Sinha, managing director of TPDDL, which services 7 million people in Delhi.

As part of the modernisation, linemen would also get a makeover. The days, sometime nights, of linemen arriving on bicycles to figure out why your house is in the dark is already a thing of the past.

TPDDL’s field force automation programme would help the lineman track consumer complaints, do remote diagnosis and find the best solution — all the while keeping the customer constantly updated by an SMS or via the app.

The lineman would also be equipped with a tablet, a global positioning system for better tracking, route optimisation for shorter commute and augmented reality systems for faster identification of the problem. An auto-dispatching system would ensure that the closest lineman is given the job. And he might just pull up in an electric vehicle.

Power theft is a huge challenge in a country like India, where the aggregate technical and commercial losses are over 20%. Pilferage by tampering with meters and distribution lines has been plaguing the sector. But the smart grid would help tackle this. TPDDL, with Omron, has developed a tamper-proof sensor that can withstand high temperature and is water- and fire-proof.

The sensor detects tampering, stores the information on the meter and communicates it to a central server. It also enables the discom to disconnect power supply remotely. Wireless power sensors detect hooking and other such tampering of distribution lines.

This move would set the stage for Delhi to move towards the Smart City mission, a project the government has been pushing hard. For this, TPDDL is collaborating with 30 entities, including GE, IBM, Raychem, 3M, EDF, GIZ, USAID and USTDA. It is also working with the Indian Institute of Technology-Bombay, Stanford University, University of Canada, University of California and the University of Finland, to research, pilot and introduce energy efficiency and home automation technologies.

For example, USTDA has given a grant to explore and develop opportunities in the areas of rooftop solar energy, energy storage systems and electric vehicles. Apart from aligning with the Smart City mission, TPDDL’s roll-out of smart meters and a smart-grid backbone would help in managing demand and growth in consumption.

Today, residential consumption accounts for 24% of electricity produced in India, of which 75% is used for lighting and cooling. By 2021, according to the World Bank, residential consumption would surge 260%.

Thrust on efficient appliances, use of solar energy and demand management are some of the ways to deal with consumption growth in a sustainable manner. The World Bank has estimated India’s energy efficiency market at Rs 1.6 lakh crore. For example, 280 million LED bulbs sold under the UJALA scheme have resulted in a saving of Rs 14,618 crore.

Another important aspect in managing consumption is renewable energy. For example, solar is 1% of TPDDL’s grid supply today; the discom wants it to be 10% in five years. The rise of rooftop solar power systems is a critical component of this strategy. With the help of USTDA and others, efforts are on to explore technologies to integrate distributed energy resources (rooftop solar power) with the grid, while maintaining grid efficiency and stability.

“All this will empower consumers and discoms like us to optimally and efficiently use and supply electricity,” says Sinha.

Home Automation
Smart meters can integrate home appliances and even, say, the window curtains for remote operation via a smart phone or tablet PC. The system entails installing modular intelligent switches with radio frequency communication technology integrated with smart sensors to control appliances.

The home automation market in India is estimated to touch Rs 30,000 crore by 2022, with the residential segment accounting for 60% of the industry.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby disha » 20 Mar 2018 02:51

A slight correction to the above maxims

1. A very advanced electric grid is a Smart Grid.

2. A smart Grid is an efficient battery.

3. A smart Grid is an efficient power source.

Thus, A smart grid is both a power store and a power source.

4. Smart Grid is pervasive and hence Smart grid is ubiquitous.

5. Smart Grid is invisible.


What is an advanced grid?

An advanced or very advanced grid, borrowing terminology from IEC "smart grid" standardizing roadmap http://www.iec.ch/smartgrid/downloads/sg3_roadmap.pdf and turning on its head, is:

An integrated electric Grid that incorporates information and communications technology into every aspect of electricity generation, delivery and consumption from source to destination in order to minimize environmental impact, enhance markets, improve reliability and service, and reduce costs and improve efficiency


Such an advanced electric grid becomes a smart grid.

GOI should be spending money on Grid upgrade like there is no tomorrow

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Supratik » 20 Mar 2018 21:28

World's largest solar power park coming up in India.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg ... story.html

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Supratik » 20 Mar 2018 21:31

India's epic effort to bring power to all.

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-indi ... story.html

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vasu » 23 Mar 2018 12:34

EESL floats second tender for smart meters

Energy Efficiency Services Ltd (EESL) has floated its second tender for procuring five million smart meters to be installed on a pan-India basis.

A JV of PSUs under the power ministry, EESL had last year invited bids for five million smart meters to be deployed across UP and Haryana.


That is five million more homes/business establishments across India.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Supratik » 23 Mar 2018 23:23

X-post

India jumps in Electricity Accessibility rankings to 26. Jumps 73 spots,

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... w/58670378.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby arun » 27 Mar 2018 08:13

India now generates around 1,160.1 billion units of electricity in financial year 2017, up 4.72% from the previous year. The country is behind only China which produced 6,015 terrawatt hours (TWh. 1 TW = 1,000,000 megawatts) and the US (4,327 TWh), and is ahead of Russia, Japan, Germany, and Canada. …………….



Image

Little factoid, only 5 countries in the world produce more than a Terrawatt of Electricity.

From here:

RACING AHEAD : India is now the world’s third-largest electricity producer

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vips » 27 Mar 2018 18:30

Market size for Air Conditioners is the cause for gap in demand/generation of electric power between India and the top 2.


Millions of Indians are expected to cross that threshold in the next 10-15 years, so analysts expect demand for room air-conditioner demand akin to the surge in China around the turn of the millennium. Urban Chinese purchased 200 million room air conditioners in 15 years, creating—with just one appliance—300 GW of electric demand, the equivalent of six Californias.

In India, air conditioning is expected to double the country's electricity demand in 15 years, requiring 200-300 new electric plants for that one appliance. Air conditioning is part of the reason India is expected to be the world's largest contributor to new electricity demand between now and 2040.

"India would be the largest contributor to the additional demand that may come in that timeframe," Abhyankar said. "Most of China’s energy sector has grown already, China is kind of reaching a plateau, and India is where China was about 10 to 15 years ago. That’s why these next two decades are important for India."



The study projected a base case consumption of 42 terawatt-hours in 2010, 195 terawatt-hours in 2020, and 552 terawatt-hours in 2030 for air conditioning.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Mar 2018 22:45

arun wrote:
India now generates around 1,160.1 billion units of electricity in financial year 2017, up 4.72% from the previous year. The country is behind only China which produced 6,015 terrawatt hours (TWh. 1 TW = 1,000,000 megawatts) and the US (4,327 TWh), and is ahead of Russia, Japan, Germany, and Canada. …………….



Image

Little factoid, only 5 countries in the world produce more than a Terrawatt of Electricity.

From here:

RACING AHEAD : India is now the world’s third-largest electricity producer


Let’s wait until the CEA has final data for the fiscal year. Actual generation is around 2000 billion units for the last fiscal ending this March.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 27 Mar 2018 23:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Suraj » 27 Mar 2018 23:01

2000 TWh would be a 40% jump in generation over prior year. How do you establish that ? Neither installed capacity gains nor PLF have shown such gains.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Mar 2018 23:28

Sorry. Target was 1229.4 TWH. PLF has been 62 and 74% respectively for thermal and nuclear.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Supratik » 28 Mar 2018 00:19

That electricity ratio is better than GDP ratio between India and China.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vasu » 28 Mar 2018 09:39

Larsen & Toubro wins Rs 747-cr contract from NPCIL

“The heavy engineering arm of Larsen & Toubro has received orders worth Rs 747 crore from NPCIL to supply steam generators and end shields for its indigenously designed 700 MWe Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWR) to be set up at the Gorakhpur Haryana Anu Vidyut Pariyojana (GHAVP) in Fatehabad district of Haryana,” L&T said in a statement.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Mar 2018 22:33

Supratik wrote:That electricity ratio is better than GDP ratio between India and China.


Seems about the same. 4.5 to 1.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 28 Mar 2018 23:13


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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Mar 2018 09:02



How is this even relevant to India’s power sector?

KSA has decided to build out their peak daytime load using solar so they can produce less oil in order keep prices up. In no way is this relevant to India.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 29 Mar 2018 21:51

:evil: What is the point of your post? If you can’t see the connection between recent conversation on the thread and the posted news, I am not sure if I can help you much.

Anyhow, solar shift is real and Indian investment in it are not unique, it appears to be a worldwide phenomenon which would lift all the boats by creating economy of scale. Even Saud’s realize that the oil is not going to last long and they need to move towards the fuel that would last forever. Sunlight and wind is the way to go.

Building 200 thermal power plant would require building thousands of KM of railways, 10’s of thousands km or roads, diverting millions of acres of land to exploitative mining and infra development, dozens of ports, ships and storage dumps besides 100s of thousands trucks, train sets, heavy machinery and billions of gallons of water/day capacity.


Now this could be good or bad depending on you look at it but the massive amount of work required usually means lead times are long and delays and coordinations are poor.

I must add the statutory disclosure to avoid the same anti jihad lecture process to start again-

With all that said, there are significant hurdles and limitations that would need to be overcome to achive true potential of solar energy and it would not replace conventional fuels but only complement them in future.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 29 Mar 2018 23:42

Katare Saar, well said....

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Commerce Ministry ends anti-dumping probe into solar cells import on industry's request

https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/en ... 73296.html

The Indian Solar Manufacturers Association has made a request to terminate the present investigation, it added.


The domestic industry has cited certain reasons for its request to terminate the probe. They have stated that post-initiation, the injury being suffered by the domestic producers on account of dumping has aggravated sharply.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Mar 2018 08:27

Katare wrote::evil: What is the point of your post? If you can’t see the connection between recent conversation on the thread and the posted news, I am not sure if I can help you much.

Anyhow, solar shift is real and Indian investment in it are not unique, it appears to be a worldwide phenomenon which would lift all the boats by creating economy of scale. Even Saud’s realize that the oil is not going to last long and they need to move towards the fuel that would last forever. Sunlight and wind is the way to go.

Building 200 thermal power plant would require building thousands of KM of railways, 10’s of thousands km or roads, diverting millions of acres of land to exploitative mining and infra development, dozens of ports, ships and storage dumps besides 100s of thousands trucks, train sets, heavy machinery and billions of gallons of water/day capacity.


Now this could be good or bad depending on you look at it but the massive amount of work required usually means lead times are long and delays and coordinations are poor.

I must add the statutory disclosure to avoid the same anti jihad lecture process to start again-

With all that said, there are significant hurdles and limitations that would need to be overcome to achive true potential of solar energy and it would not replace conventional fuels but only complement them in future.


There is no relevance in KSA's solar power deployment and that of India's. So please try to understand this. KSA is not shifting from oil as petroleum will be used for transportation energy for the next 50 years. This is about maintaining oil prices.

WTH are you talking about building 200 coal-thermal plants? Natural gas and nuclear for the base load is what will happen. Reliance on just solar and wind will make industry input energy prices too high. The story of power in India is not just to supply people, but to provide a cheap, stable and reliable electric grid for industry and manufacturing. This will generate employment and push GDP growth to $10 billion by 2030. The goal should be that retail electric power to industry should be no more than Rs. 2/KWHr available 24/7/365.

The true potential of solar will remain locked until panel efficiencies go up considerably and there is development of a fuel cell, until then it will always remain an energy source for just peak loads and not carry the base load.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Mar 2018 08:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:Katare Saar, well said....

--------------------------
Commerce Ministry ends anti-dumping probe into solar cells import on industry's request

https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/en ... 73296.html

The Indian Solar Manufacturers Association has made a request to terminate the present investigation, it added.


The domestic industry has cited certain reasons for its request to terminate the probe. They have stated that post-initiation, the injury being suffered by the domestic producers on account of dumping has aggravated sharply.


This indicates that most panels are not being made in India, but only assembled. In other words, manufacturing of PVs is not economical when it can be imported much cheaper from China.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vasu » 30 Mar 2018 17:45

This is the big reason why per unit rates of solar are falling in India, and elsewhere across the world. I understand the economies of scale are being met, but like much else, China has cornered most of the manufacturing and dumps it across the world.

The most immediate negative impact of this fall has been on renewable energy financing. The race to the bottom in bids made has made financing solar very difficult, and mainstream bank lending has cooled off to a large extent. State grids are spooked and unwilling to honour their purchase obligations as the rates keep falling and they try to bully the producer into matching the new rates, and the producer's entire, leveraged business model goes for a toss.

Indian R&D in renewables must scale up considerably to lead the next generation of advancements in renewable tech, especially off-grid and micro-grid. I believe only these would truly be able to achieve last mile connectivity.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby arun » 30 Mar 2018 19:09

Meanwhile Solar becomes the next tool for the Pseudo Seculars to carry on their ideological battle with a wage dispute induced act of vandalism in Maharashtra being passed off as a Hindu superstition based attack instigated by the BJP:

HoaXposed: Fake post claims BJP supporters destroyed solar panels because it angers sun god

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby arun » 30 Mar 2018 19:10

POWER SUPPLY POSITION -ENERGY-FEBRUARY 2018 REPORT.

CONTAINS:

1.REGIONWISE MONTHLY AND CUMULATIVE GROSS GENERATION DURING THE YEAR VIS-À-VIS CORRESPONDING PERIOD OF PREVIOUS YEAR.

2.STATEWISE MONTHLY AND CUMULATIVE GROSS GENERATION DURING THE YEAR VIS-À-VIS CORRESPONDING PERIOD OF PREVIOUS YEAR.

ACTUAL GENERATION APRIL 17 to FEB 18 is 1100113.73 MU.

From CEA Website:

Clicky

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby SBajwa » 31 Mar 2018 00:07

Question for the power gurus

which is better 120v or 220v electricity?

I have seen that the 120V here in USA the appliances never break while in India they go bad after few years.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 31 Mar 2018 03:15

SBajwa wrote:Question for the power gurus

which is better 120v or 220v electricity?

I have seen that the 120V here in USA the appliances never break while in India they go bad after few years.


Both are fine. 220 or 230VAC at 50Hz in India and 120VAC at 60 Hz in the US. The reason electric appliances break in India more often has to do with the utility supplied voltage sag and voltage spikes which happen more often. On top of that you have electric brown outs (voltage drop for hours). The electric grid in India has improved much in the last 10 years, but needs more work.

This is where solar power has benefit. PVs provide good DC voltage which is easy to divide with minimal loss as opposed to inverters for groups of panels that have much more loss. If we ran DC brushless motors for water pumps and LED lights without an AC power supply, efficiency would be improved by >20%. I really wish Indian industry would mass produce DC operated air conditioners and refrigerators. I think there would be a big market for these. Something that runs on 24 or 48VDC.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Apr 2018 21:55

Vasu wrote:This is the big reason why per unit rates of solar are falling in India, and elsewhere across the world. I understand the economies of scale are being met, but like much else, China has cornered most of the manufacturing and dumps it across the world.


Not doubt about it dumping is going on. But when domestic industry is not there to match prices or even the 20 GW / year we have few options. Total for for panel import is about $5 Billion per year. But sustains a $25 Billion down stream industry. And produces cheap cheap electricity for nation. Tough choices. No doubt.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vasu » 04 Apr 2018 18:04

L&T, two other bag Uttar Pradesh power meter deal

Infrastructure major Larsen and Toubro (L&T), Genus Power and Allied Engineering have bagged a contract to supply 10 million pre-paid meters to Uttar Pradesh under the Saubhagya scheme, which aims to add more than 40 million households to the power grid by December this year.


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