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India's Power Sector

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vips » 11 Apr 2018 06:35

World's largest solar park to come up in Gujarat.

Gujarat Chief Minister Vijay Rupani today approved setting up a 5,000 MW capacity solar park at the Dholera Special Investment Region (SIR), which would be the largest such entity in the world after its completion.

The proposed solar power generation project would be set up in 11,000 hectares of land with an investment of Rs 25,000 crore, said an official release.

The project will contribute significantly in achieving Prime Minister Narendra Modi's target of producing 175 gigawatt of electricity through renewable energy sources by 2022, said Rupani.

The chief minister exuded confidence that the solar park would not only provide employment to over 20,000 people, but also open new manufacturing avenues for the entire supply chain in and around the Dholera International City.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Apr 2018 09:05

^^^Wow. That's a rectangle of 10 Km by 11 Km. Hopefully it will be built with "Made In India" PV panels.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vips » 11 Apr 2018 17:49

I hope they work with other entities to make sure there are enough transmission lines to evacuate the power to needy areas. Gujarat is already massively power surplus and also has other plants under construction and planning.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Apr 2018 21:33

Vips wrote:I hope they work with other entities to make sure there are enough transmission lines to evacuate the power to needy areas. Gujarat is already massively power surplus and also has other plants under construction and planning.


Guj has neighbors of MH, MP and Raj. That power can be sold. But please remember that average power will only be 850 MW. The key is to make power cheap enough for industry.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Apr 2018 22:11

Looks like GOI reads BRF. This is exactly what I proposed a year ago. The Bay of Khambat has enough wind energy to power all of India.

Rs 7 is high but I think India can do better. Rs 5 or 8 cents / kwhr should be possible for first round. Ultimately should get to the Rs 3 level. Rope in some private companies with offshore oil work.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 719027.cms

“The global expression of interest (EoI) is intended to shortlist prospective offshore wind energy developers for a 1000 MW offshore wind energy project in Gulf of Khambat, off the coast of Gujarat,” an official statement from the Ministry of new and renewable energy said on Wednesday.


“At this point, tariffs for off-shore wind would be around Rs. 7 per unit. Now the question is whether the government will allow such tariffs,” said an industry player who did not wish to be quoted.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vips » 11 Apr 2018 22:22

If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby disha » 11 Apr 2018 23:21

Vips wrote:If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.


Great. A quick question, how do you plan to maintain them?

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Apr 2018 23:31

Vips wrote:If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.


It is proposed 10 km out from Pipavav. There shouldn't be much environment objections in this area, it is the area of Alang after all and water is quite turbid and devoid of fish life. Per my notes about 300,000 MW should be possible in this bay alone with fixed foundations. Floating would add even more.

To take your analogy further. About 25,000 of these 12 MW units should get us to 300,000 MW of capacity in Khambat alone. Which is essentially the bulk of India's power need.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vips » 12 Apr 2018 00:16

disha wrote:
Vips wrote:If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.


Great. A quick question, how do you plan to maintain them?


No idea on how different will be the logistics in maintaining the normal 100+ meter normal wind mills vs the 200+ meter higher rated ones.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Apr 2018 06:46

Vips wrote:If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.


12 MW is peak power. Average is 13% of that. About 1.6 MW is typical. Lots of specmanship and salesmanship going on.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 12 Apr 2018 10:36

Mort Walker wrote:12 MW is peak power. Average is 13% of that. About 1.6 MW is typical. Lots of specmanship and salesmanship going on.


Offshore capacity factor is close to 60%.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2018 13:36

https://mnre.gov.in/sites/default/files/webform/notices/EOI_for_Development_of_1000_MW_Offshore_Wind_Farm_in_Gujarat.pdf

NIWE invites EOI for development of first 1000 MW commercial offshore wind farm in INDIA, off the coast of Gujarat

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Apr 2018 23:15

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:12 MW is peak power. Average is 13% of that. About 1.6 MW is typical. Lots of specmanship and salesmanship going on.


Offshore capacity factor is close to 60%.


I don’t buy that if coming from wind turbine manufacturers. It is probably off by a factor 2 and is probably closer to 30% max.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Apr 2018 23:22

disha wrote:
Vips wrote:If the environment brigade does not object then just 84 of these turbines each generating 12 MW will be enough to generate the proposed 1000 MW.

Unlike the onshore turbines which max out at 3 MW, the offshore ones with longer blades and bigger rotors come in capacities of 8 MW and up.


Great. A quick question, how do you plan to maintain them?


Offshore wind turbines won’t survive Category 2 and above cyclones, so there will be cost associated with this as well. Even if there is a storm further away, the winds will play havoc with the turbine blades.

Large wind turbines are know to obscure surveillance radar for military and air traffic. The UK has limited large turbines due national security concerns. Extra or additional sensors will need to be added to avoid another Purilla Arms Drop type case.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Uttam » 12 Apr 2018 23:24

Mort Walker wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Offshore capacity factor is close to 60%.


I don’t buy that if coming from wind turbine manufacturers. It is probably off by a factor 2 and is probably closer to 30% max.


How does it matter to the consumer as long as the power supplied is at a competitive price as compared to other sources. Right now, the Rs 8 seems too high. It has to come down to the prices of onshore wind and solar for it to make sense.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby JTull » 13 Apr 2018 00:38

Mort Walker, history of this thread shows you've a single point agenda of repeating the load factor issue of solar and wind power. I've called you out each time, esp. when the language has not been appropriate.

Everyone knows that sun and wind are not always available. I don't know what your personal issues are on this subject. Please stop it! Lot of good is happening here so it would be great if you can start acknowledging it.

I come to this thread to see how India is progressing, how old problems are being solved and how lives are being improved. This negativity is not needed.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 13 Apr 2018 01:09

Off shore will never be a cheap as onshore wind and solar pv. But there are reasons to do it as the generation profile is different from onshore. India has an impressive coastline and majority of states will have access to this power. From the GJ & TN offshore feasability reports the wind dip comes in April and blows strongly when onshore is dipping. There is less of an off monsoon dip. From the feasibility reports 100M tower data says anywhere from 30% to 45% capacity factor is possible with 4-6MW turbines. As we hit 10-12MW turbines with Hub heights of 140-160M we too will get closer to 60%. Maybe at 60% we will get close to Rs3-Rs4. The real advantage comes once the turbines have go through their 10 year capital payoff period. The cost of electricity will drop below Rs 2 / kwhr as only O/M cost, no fuel cost.

The key thing with offshore wind is this technology is not CKD. Majority of the equipment will have to be manufactured, transported and mastered by folks in India. This is different from Solar PV where everything is simple import kit work. Traditional companies like BHEL/L&T/Jindal etc with experience in big steel will be needed for manufacturing the foundation/tower/cables/power connections, etc And folks with offshore experience, esp. oil/gas types will be need to build/operate/maintain. Such companies will then be able to export capable people, engineering, products and maintenance service around the world. Esp. for the next stage - floating offshore wind!

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 13 Apr 2018 03:54

Uttam wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
I don’t buy that if coming from wind turbine manufacturers. It is probably off by a factor 2 and is probably closer to 30% max.


How does it matter to the consumer as long as the power supplied is at a competitive price as compared to other sources. Right now, the Rs 8 seems too high. It has to come down to the prices of onshore wind and solar for it to make sense.


Price of energy is normalized over a period of time taking into account low and high generation due to seasonal or daily changes over 24 hours. Solar and wind when normailzed are not as cost effective as hydro, thermal or nuclear, but are cheap and fast to setup and that is their only advantage. What we must understand that putting the bulk of power production in these energy sources will increase electric energy cost overall and make an unreliable grid. The future for economic growth and mass employment must come from manufacturing, but for that we need cheap power from a relaible grid 24 hours a day for 365 days.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 13 Apr 2018 04:09

JTull wrote:Mort Walker, history of this thread shows you've a single point agenda of repeating the load factor issue of solar and wind power. I've called you out each time, esp. when the language has not been appropriate.

Everyone knows that sun and wind are not always available. I don't know what your personal issues are on this subject. Please stop it! Lot of good is happening here so it would be great if you can start acknowledging it.

I come to this thread to see how India is progressing, how old problems are being solved and how lives are being improved. This negativity is not needed.


Language not appropriate? I’m sorry if one cannot see the agenda of outsiders pushing an agenda to keep India literally in the dark.

Load factors are entirely relevant to the discussion. They give us real insight and keep us from burying our heads in the sand. Politicans and slick businessman will otherwise steal eveything they can.

India progresses due to economic growth. If we make power, normalized for actual cost, more expensive then lives will not be improved.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 13 Apr 2018 04:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:Off shore will never be a cheap as onshore wind and solar pv. But there are reasons to do it as the generation profile is different from onshore. India has an impressive coastline and majority of states will have access to this power. From the GJ & TN offshore feasability reports the wind dip comes in April and blows strongly when onshore is dipping. There is less of an off monsoon dip. From the feasibility reports 100M tower data says anywhere from 30% to 45% capacity factor is possible with 4-6MW turbines. As we hit 10-12MW turbines with Hub heights of 140-160M we too will get closer to 60%. Maybe at 60% we will get close to Rs3-Rs4. The real advantage comes once the turbines have go through their 10 year capital payoff period. The cost of electricity will drop below Rs 2 / kwhr as only O/M cost, no fuel cost.

The key thing with offshore wind is this technology is not CKD. Majority of the equipment will have to be manufactured, transported and mastered by folks in India. This is different from Solar PV where everything is simple import kit work. Traditional companies like BHEL/L&T/Jindal etc with experience in big steel will be needed for manufacturing the foundation/tower/cables/power connections, etc And folks with offshore experience, esp. oil/gas types will be need to build/operate/maintain. Such companies will then be able to export capable people, engineering, products and maintenance service around the world. Esp. for the next stage - floating offshore wind!


Not being CKD does make a big difference compare to solar. The 60% load factor is likely on the higher side, but if >40% can be achieved it would be closer to some poorly operated coal plants, and definitely more preferable.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 13 Apr 2018 07:08

{ Deleted . Come on, you can do better than attack another poster }

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 13 Apr 2018 09:03

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Apr 2018 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: cleanup

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Theo_Fidel » 13 Apr 2018 10:56

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Apr 2018 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Cleanup

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Uttam » 13 Apr 2018 19:11

Mort Walker wrote:
Price of energy is normalized over a period of time taking into account low and high generation due to seasonal or daily changes over 24 hours. Solar and wind when normailzed are not as cost effective as hydro, thermal or nuclear, but are cheap and fast to setup and that is their only advantage. What we must understand that putting the bulk of power production in these energy sources will increase electric energy cost overall and make an unreliable grid. The future for economic growth and mass employment must come from manufacturing, but for that we need cheap power from a relaible grid 24 hours a day for 365 days.


<edited by moderator> You have decidedly ignored the facts that favor Solar and Wind, and the facts that go against hydel, thermal and nuclear.

Let's start with what you ignored about Solar and Wind:
The Solar and Wind is intermittent but requires much less maintenance. The panels ones installed require only to be dusted. The wind turbines need lubrication and replacement of moving parts but still much less than the kind of maintenance required by hydro, thermal and nuclear. The thermal and nuclear plants go through very long periods of shutdowns for major maintenance. There are not perpetual motion machines.

The solar and wind energy is not as susceptible to fuel supply disruptions as thermal and especially nuclear. How many thermal power plants operate on reduced capacity because of coal supply disruptions. Most of India's nuclear plants operated at very low capacity until very recently. Hydro also suffers from water levels falling the summer time (right before monsoon when the demand is at its highest). Ask Pakis how well their Hydro plants are doing.

The storage costs have come down rapidly and are likely to come down even more. They are already setting up battery storage in the order of 100 MW. Even with storage to cover 2 -3 hours of evening demand (the demand for electricity sees a massive decline after evening hours) the levelized costs will soon be in the range of Rs 4.

With regards to cost, you totally ignore the environmental and health costs associated with Thermal. All the heavy metals leached in the water, SO emission, the fly ash problem, need for fresh water to generate steam, etc. I grew up close of a NTPC thermal plant. I did not know what is unconstrained breathing until I moved out of that area. Even after 30 years I still suffer from its effects. And I dare not say global warming before inviting a wrath of the non-believes. In a true capitalistic world, these costs should be priced in the production cost of electricity. But it is not.

Nuclear, has the problem of waste storage. It also has a problem of a (small) probability of a massive accident that may render a large part of land useless for a densely populated country like India.

Price of energy is normalized over a period of time taking into account low and high generation due to seasonal or daily changes over 24 hours.

That is true even for thermal. In unregulated markets, the independent power producers are allowed to charge whatever amount during peak hours. Their normalized price sometimes is 5 or 10 times the price of base load producers. So this argument of yours is a big farce.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby SBajwa » 13 Apr 2018 21:59

Mort Walker wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Question for the power gurus

which is better 120v or 220v electricity?

I have seen that the 120V here in USA the appliances never break while in India they go bad after few years.


Both are fine. 220 or 230VAC at 50Hz in India and 120VAC at 60 Hz in the US. The reason electric appliances break in India more often has to do with the utility supplied voltage sag and voltage spikes which happen more often. On top of that you have electric brown outs (voltage drop for hours). The electric grid in India has improved much in the last 10 years, but needs more work.

This is where solar power has benefit. PVs provide good DC voltage which is easy to divide with minimal loss as opposed to inverters for groups of panels that have much more loss. If we ran DC brushless motors for water pumps and LED lights without an AC power supply, efficiency would be improved by >20%. I really wish Indian industry would mass produce DC operated air conditioners and refrigerators. I think there would be a big market for these. Something that runs on 24 or 48VDC.


Thank you sir!

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby nachiket » 13 Apr 2018 23:23

Uttam, when you have factual data which you are posting to counter another poster's argument, why do you need to speculate about their motives or "agenda"? Refrain from doing that henceforth. You are already countering their argument. That is enough. Same goes for everyone else.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Uttam » 14 Apr 2018 00:33

nachiket wrote:Uttam, when you have factual data which you are posting to counter another poster's argument, why do you need to speculate about their motives or "agenda"? Refrain from doing that henceforth. You are already countering their argument. That is enough. Same goes for everyone else.


Thank you for deleting my unnecessary comment. I will stick to facts in my future post.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Katare » 14 Apr 2018 10:04

SBajwa wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Both are fine. 220 or 230VAC at 50Hz in India and 120VAC at 60 Hz in the US. The reason electric appliances break in India more often has to do with the utility supplied voltage sag and voltage spikes which happen more often. On top of that you have electric brown outs (voltage drop for hours). The electric grid in India has improved much in the last 10 years, but needs more work.

This is where solar power has benefit. PVs provide good DC voltage which is easy to divide with minimal loss as opposed to inverters for groups of panels that have much more loss. If we ran DC brushless motors for water pumps and LED lights without an AC power supply, efficiency would be improved by >20%. I really wish Indian industry would mass produce DC operated air conditioners and refrigerators. I think there would be a big market for these. Something that runs on 24 or 48VDC.


Thank you sir!


You need half the dia of copper wire to transmit the energy at 220V than at 110V. The trade off is the shock of a 220v is x times more dangerous and painful than 110V.

In one line, it’s a compromise between safety and economics.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Apr 2018 20:47

^^^Either one is fine for appliances. Having panel ground and adequate rated circuit breakers is the key. The same appliance whether in India or anywhere else will draw the same power regardless of voltage. The biggest problem in India is that adequate wire gauge is not used and often it is aluminum strand for residential which is more prone to heat and fire. If you’re building a house in India, it would be worth your while to get solid core copper wire even though it costs more. I have yet to see, even in posh localities the use of copper solid core 12 or 10 gauge wire for residential use. I have seen good quality circuit breakers.

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Re: India's Power Sector

Postby Vasu » 16 Apr 2018 12:27

ReNew Power's USD 900 million IPO coming soon. The company has 5.6 GW of RE under it, 65% of which is operational. Two more IPOs also on their way.

ReNew Power Ventures set to file for $900 million IPO

ReNew Power Ventures Pvt. Ltd, the largest green energy company in India, will file draft share sale documents with the markets regulator for a $900 million initial public offering (IPO) before the end of the month, three people aware of the development said.

The move follows ReNew’s acquisition of 1.1 gigawatts (GW) of renewable assets from Ostro Energy at an enterprise value of around Rs10,000 crore.
ACME Solar Holdings, with 874MW of operating renewable assets as of September 2017, filed the DRHP for its IPO in September to raise Rs2,200 crore. Last week, Mint reported that the company is planning to re-file its draft prospectus.

In February, Sembcorp Energy India Ltd, the Indian arm of Singapore-based utility group Sembcorp Industries Ltd, filed draft documents for an initial share sale. Sembcorp operates thermal and renewable power assets in India with a total capacity of around 4GW.


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