India's Power Sector

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 29 May 2007 20:53

Some forward movement in addressing the dire power situation in the nation.

National board to improve power scenario

The central government and the states decided to set up a National Power Project Management Board that will monitor capacity addition and transmission projects to meet the soaring demand of electricity in the country.

In a resolution adopted at the conclusion of a day long Chief Ministers' Conference on the power sector, it was decided to set up a Standing Group of Power Ministers chaired by the union power minister to meet once a quarter to review implementation of power projects.

"One of the foremost features of the conference was that all the states agreed that capacity addition has to be accelerated towards the target set by the conference," Power Secretary Anil Razdan told reporters.

The conference in a resolution recognized that an estimated generating capacity of about 20,000 MW is being sub-optimally utilised in a phase of critical power shortage.

Razdan said the conference expressed serious concern over the current level of aggregate technical and commercial (AT&C) losses posing a grave threat to the viability of the power sector, which is currently losing about Rs.470 billion annually.

gashish
BRFite
Posts: 263
Joined: 23 May 2004 11:31
Location: BRF's tailgate party, aka, Nukkad thread

Postby gashish » 30 May 2007 07:32

Aam Admi to be in focus

With around 724 days left in its five-year tenure that began on May 24, 2004, the government, which spent considerable time and energy in the past taking up issues like higher FDI in insurance and pension, the SEZs initiative and even retail trade, is now heavily focused on three sectors, namely, agriculture, power and education.

A massive push in education has already begun and would include setting up a central university in every state, extending the coverage of the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan to secondary education and a focused programme to boost vocational education.


Observers detect a sense of urgency in the Centre’s attempts to promote ‘inclusive growth’. Significantly, policy decisions have time lines — from two months to finalise the civil aviation policy, to sorting out issues to electrify 100,000 villages in a few weeks.


electrification means putting up copper/aluminium wires and physically connecting villages to the power grid? or does it also entail increasing the power generating capacity to feed newly added consumers to the grid?

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 31 May 2007 00:12

The first shot across the bow of GoI's claims regarding annual power capacity addition in the 11th plan. This article analyzes the claims againsts orders with heavy industrial suppliers and questions GoI's claims:
Jam tomorrow
[quote]Now it is the turn of the UPA government to do the same. It talks about a power surplus by 2012—an energy surplus of 5.6 per cent and a peaking power surplus of 0.7 per cent—on the assumption that 78,000 Mw of new capacity will added to the existing capacity. That is almost four times the 20,000 Mw of capacity that was added in the last five years. What has changed and from where is this confidence coming? Surely, the more rigorous project management schedule that the government is putting in place will not by itself do the trick. Nor will aggressive ordering of equipment, if that is actually happening.

While the government claims to have over 49,000 Mw of capacity “under various stages of constructionâ€

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 01 Jun 2007 04:43

Tata Power to raise Rs.30,000 crore ($7.4 billion) to fund projects
Tata Power Company (TPC) will use a combination of instruments to finance its Rs 30,000-crore, 4,000-mw Mundra ultra mega power project and 2,400-mw imported coal-based project in Maharashtra. These projects will have a debt-equity mix of 70:30.

TPC has projected Rs 18,000 crore investment for Mundra and Rs 10,000-11,000 crore for the Maharashtra project. Of the Rs 18,000 crore, the loan portion will be around Rs 12,000 crore and in the case of the Maharashtra project, the debt component will be Rs 7,000-8,000 crore. The balance will come from internal accruals.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 03 Jun 2007 11:32


Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 04 Jun 2007 05:48

Power boards` unbundling stumbles
[quote]Eight states will be knocking at the doors of the power ministry this month to seek more time to unbundle their electricity boards (SEBs) into separate transmission, generation and distribution entities.

This is not the first time such extensions will be sought. Nor is it likely to be the last, say industry sources.

The eight states which are yet to unbundle their SEBs — Bihar, Jharkhand, Kerala, Punjab, Chhattisgarh, Tamil Nadu, Meghalaya and Himachal Pradesh — are putting off the move because of the debate over the benefits of unbundling.

Also, the unbundling is being opposed by the SEB employees since it is seen a step towards privatisation, and possible job losses. This has not happened in any state so far, though.

Under the Electricity Act, 2003, all SEBs were supposed to be unbundled by 2004.


As the country enters the 11th Plan period (2007-12), 12 states have unbundled their SEBs — Assam, Maharashtra, West Bengal, Orissa, Haryana, Andhra Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Rajasthan, Delhi, Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh.

According to Sekhar Reddy, a power expert who has written a report on the impact of unbundling for the Indian Institute of Public Administration (IIPA), there should be no dispute on the benefits of such a move. “Unbundling is a very important part of electricity reforms because it brings in transparency and accountability in the system.â€

Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Postby Sanjay M » 04 Jun 2007 12:06


Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2007 02:46

Arguments going on between Power and Industries ministries. The former are very critical of the rate at which the latter, and particularly its flagship, BHEL, is producing power equipment. Claims the low rate of production is responsible for 10th Plan power generation goals not being met, and plans to manufacture equipment on its own:
Power majors butt heads
The ministries of power and heavy industries are at loggerhead over state-run NTPC’s proposed foray into power equipment manufacture. The power ministry has made a strong pitch for NTPC after openly expressing disappointment over Bhel’s failure to fulfil its commitment in the 10th Plan. Against the original target of 41,000 mw, only 21,000 mw has been added by the end of 10th Plan.

With NTPC far ahead in the race to set up a new power equipment manufacturing facility, Bhel has questioned the very idea of state generation utilities entering into such a venture. Bhel has stated that it was ready to take on a strategic partner to deal with the emerging situation.

NTPC CMD T Sankaralingam said that NTPC may consider setting up a joint venture with Bhel to pursue its plan. He hastened to add that the company could also explore similar tie-ups with foreign players. He added that NTPC’s equipment manufacturing business would be able to show results in 12th Plan and not in 11th Plan period. The power ministry has argued that it would be impossible for Bhel to execute the 11th Plan targets.

However, the ministry of heavy industries, which is Bhel’s parent ministry, has asserted that the company had emerged an active player in ensuring energy security by playing a larger role than just being a manufacturer and supplier of equipment.

The ministry was of the view that it was better to support an existing entity like Bhel, where economies of scale for utilising 15,000 mw capacity annually would outweigh setting up new manufacturing capacities where the gestation periods could range from three to four years.

The war of words actually grew louder after the parliamentary standing committee on energy pulled up Bhel for its failure to keep its promises during the Tenth Plan. The committee observed that 53% of the capacity addition target had rolled over into the 11th Plan mainly due to a delay in supercritical technology and supply of equipment and material by Bhel.

Further, the committee desired that the proposal of the government to enhance equipment manufacturing capacity in India under NTPC and other players should be vigorously pursued within a fixed time frame. Besides, NTPC’s proposal to explore the possibility of entering into ongoing equipment manufacturing business should also be pursued simultaneously.

Ironically, the ministry of heavy industries was not yet convinced by the power ministry’s argument nor was it disappointed by the parliamentary panel’s snub. The ministry still feels the very idea of state generation utilities entering into equipment manufacture was problematic. Instead, it has stated that Bhel was ready to take on a strategic partner.

BHEL apparently lacks the capital, technology and scale to produce the amount of equipment necessary to achieve the 11th Plan generation goals. A single producer in BHEL will not work. To what extent is the private sector involved in power related heavy engineering ?

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 05 Jun 2007 08:07

Suraj,
What NTPC is saying has some merit but
The other side of the coin has a different story to tell. BHEL claims that in 9th five year plan equipment orders were pathetic ~7000MW, it added huge capacity (upto 5000MW/year) in expectation of orders which never came through, leaving a large investment idle. In 10th plan they bunched up all the capacity addition to come-online in the terminal year of the plan making it impossible for BHEL to deliver on time. This is the reason we'll have 17000MW capacity addition this year alone, which should have come last year.

As such BHEL is a fairly well run PSU, with huge cash reserves, great profitability, awesome sales growth, good equipment quality and a track record of timely project executions. They can easily scale up with much less investment and much shorter time span than NTPC. But the need for another domestic power equipment manufacturer is undeniable. I think that slot must be filled by a private sector player rather than another PSU. Since two PSUs, both owned by govt, usually never compete. Reliance or Tata Power would be better suited to give quality competition to BHEL. Reliance has already entered in the EPC business with Chinese players. Tata is working with Koreans and L&T has signed MoU with Japanese.

NTPC should invest every single penny of its capital and every bit of its management bandwidth in executing power generation projects at least till we get out of this sever power shortage crisis. To get some sense of ownership in the equipment supply business and power plant for NTPC and BHEL respectively, they can swap equities in each other's company or some similar arrangements

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Jun 2007 00:33

Katare wrote:As such BHEL is a fairly well run PSU, with huge cash reserves, great profitability, awesome sales growth, good equipment quality and a track record of timely project executions.


In other words the local power producers are screwed with expensive equipment that then produces amongst the highest electricity rates in the world.

At Mundra the TATA's are sourcing equipment from Doosan at at an incredible 1/3 the time that BHEL needs AND at 40% less cost, AFTER shipping the equipmen half way across the world.

So much for well run.

There is a reason we are such suckers.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 06 Jun 2007 03:52

Katare: BHEL's book profitability is not sufficient. That is rather easy for them to achieve under the current circumstances. Our economic and industrial prerogatives require them to be significantly more capable, as Theo described. Rapid development requires significant heavy engineering capability, qualitatitively and quantitatively.
GMR Infra plans 1,000 MW power project
GMR Infrastructure Ltd. said on Tuesday its unit GMR Energy had signed an initial agreement with Chhattisgarh authorities to develop a 1,000 megawatt thermal power project in the state.

The project would be developed as a merchant-power-plant, allowing it to sell power to third parties on a short-term basis, a senior company official said. Typically, power producers sign long-term sale pacts, mostly with state electricity boards.

Chhattisgarh signs pact with Ispat for 1,200-mw plant
[quote]Ispat Industries Ltd has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Chhattisgarh government for setting-up a coal-based 1,200 mw power project for an investment of Rs 5,300 crore.

“We have already signed a MoU with state government in January for setting up a power plant of 600 mw, but we have now entered into a revised MoU with Chattisgarh government for setting up a 1,200 mw plant,â€

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 06 Jun 2007 07:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:In other words the local power producers are screwed with expensive equipment that then produces amongst the highest electricity rates in the world.


For more than a decade all the EPC in India are happening on the global tenders, so you are kicking below the belt on the cost of equipments. They are successfully competing in the world market with export trippling in last five years and expexted to grow 6 times in next 5 years to $6billion. For last 17 years in a row they have been largest engineering project exporter from India. Not bad for a PSU with netaji at helm

The main reasons of high cost of delivered power to consumers are entirely different, well known and have been discussed many times at BRF. Some of the hydro power plants using BHEL equipments are producing power as cheap as 5 pisa/unit.

How any of these problems would be solved by creating another PSU under a different ministry and PSU? The need is to promote private sector to enter into equipment production and give some quality competition to BHEL.

Theo_Fidel wrote:At Mundra the TATA's are sourcing equipment from Doosan at at an incredible 1/3 the time that BHEL needs AND at 40% less cost, AFTER shipping the equipmen half way across the world.


I am curious where did you get those figures from?

BHEL doesn’t/didn't have the technology or manufacturing capability for that class of equipments at that time, which is a shame for 4-5 decade old company. How can you compare the cost of something that they even didn't have capability to produce leave aside selling it? They have just concluded the deal, at sarkari pace, with Alstom/Seimens for ToT for SC 800MW reactors.

Also Tata Power wants to become a competitior of BHEL in domestic market using Doosan's SC 800MW technology so they had a pre bid tie-up with them.

Theo_Fidel wrote:So much for well run.


Also for your information, BHEL has met 80% of its time line in 10th plan period while super efficient rest of the world including Chinese, Koreans, Indian and European private manufacturers have only met half of their contracted timelines.

I was careful in saying its a well run PSU, which was meant to qualify it on those standards only.

Theo_Fidel wrote:There is a reason we are such suckers.

:roll:

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 06 Jun 2007 07:32

Suraj,
I am not sure what are you pointing at by mentioning book profit? It seems capital is not a problem for BHEL since capacity addition for equipment manufacturing is not a very capital-intensive task especially when it is a brown field expansion. The capital cost needed to increase manufacturing capacity to 10000MW/year from 6000MW is only ~Rs 1200corer (IIRC) and to go to 15000MW/year from 6000MW is only ~Rs 3500 corer (quoting from memory). BHEL's net profit for last year was Rs 2400Corer. So money is not a problem although technology, efficiency (as compared to global best) and R&D capabilities are a huge issue which is a generic PSU syndrome in India.

So I agree about the capability issues at BHEL and have noted them at numerous occasions over the years. For instance last year BHEL had sales of less than Rs2K corer from indigenously developed products. Almost all of their technology is imported from Europe, which ensures good quality, but costs more (compared to say Chinese) due to royalty etc. BHEL and with them India has missed the super critical 800MW technology bus, the same way we have missed every other bus before it, but that is the case with almost all the PSUs in almost every sector.

IMO we can't get where you want us to be with PSUs alone, so, No more new PSUs for me!


NTPC lines up bonus issue to fund capex

With the PSU’s shares hovering close to Rs 160 at BSE, the fresh offering may fetch NTPC in excess of Rs 7,500 crore even if the offering was just 5%. This would be good to meet the short and long capex plans of the company, said a source.


NTPC has lined up an ambitious programme to add fresh generation capacity during 11th and 12th Plan. Accordingly, the generation capacity is set to be scaled up to 51,000 mw from the present level of about 27,000 mw by 2012 and further to 75,000 mw by 2017. This is expected to require an investment of over Rs 1,60,000 crore.

Almost 30%, or about Rs 50,000 crore, of which would be equity investment.

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Jun 2007 10:12

The figures are admittedly from a family member who works for Neyveli Lignite. NLC has been keeping a keen eye on these projects apparently with the thought of putting in a bid for one or two. IIRC he compared the equipment and scope of work costs for Mundra and Sasan (where BHEL did bid with NTPC despite not having the equipment as you say).

Basically Doosan had a lead time of 8 months and scope cost of 8000+ crore or so while Bhel's number for Sasan was 11,500+ crore with a 2 Year. :roll: lead time.

Also the Bhel profit thing is not deep rooted. As recently as 2005 they were making nominal profits of low hundred crores. I should know having endured the languishing stock prices for many years. Am happy now though, bonus this year was nice.

Kartman
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 15 May 2007 20:53

Postby Kartman » 06 Jun 2007 17:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:Basically Doosan had a lead time of 8 months and scope cost of 8000+ crore or so while Bhel's number for Sasan was 11,500+ crore with a 2 Year. :roll: lead time.

While there's certainly scope for BHEL to improve, note that Doosan Heavy is a much larger, and more vertically integrated company than BHEL... makes for far better scale and flexibility.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Postby vina » 06 Jun 2007 19:21

Katare wrote:I am curious where did you get those figures from?

BHEL doesn’t/didn't have the technology or manufacturing capability for that class of equipments at that time, which is a shame for 4-5 decade old company. How can you compare the cost of something that they even didn't have capability to produce leave aside selling it? They have just concluded the deal, at sarkari pace, with Alstom/Seimens for ToT for SC 800MW reactors.

Also Tata Power wants to become a competitior of BHEL in domestic market using Doosan's SC 800MW technology so they had a pre bid tie-up with them.


Doo What ? .. Never heard of them.. They were set up in 1984 onlee you say and they have super critical boilers. while our "Navaratna" does have the R&D capability and never invested anything in creating own products..

Well.. yawn.. classic case of India PSU driven "license manufacturing" / 100% indigeninzation and 40 year making of Ambassador like attitude onlee.

I hope the karats and yechurys dont start frothing in the mouth and rattling in their cages when they hear stuff like BHEL sell off. If there was a protected white elephants (albeit not as bad as the erstwhile DOT /ITI cabal), these guys will have to be one of them.

Thank goodness they didnt make a law forcing all power plant operators to buy from these guys as a sole source. Let them sell to NTPC and other sarkari depts and be happy.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 06 Jun 2007 20:32

BHEL's R&D budget is still less than 1% of their turnover!

Theo,
I am from Bhopal, BHEL had a huge township there comprising almost 1/3 of Bhopal by area. That was the best managed part of the town with company money, with usual other PSU welfare stuff. But they have reformed at a good pace, laid-off almost 70-80% of the work force in last few years and are giving back some 700Acre of prime city land/with houses etc back to state govt. That belt tightening was one of the reasons I called them a relatively well managed PSU. They were forced to do that due to unleashing off global competition on them. What is missing is a strong domestic private sector competitor or a global competitor with strong manufacturing base in India. This will substantially bring down equipment costs for generation companies by taking away the last leverage that BHEL has i.e. huge local capacity.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 08 Jun 2007 02:32

Powerful worries
[quote]The fact that eight state electricity boards (SEBs) are approaching the ministry of power to ask for more time to unbundle their operations does not look like being very bad news, even though the unbundling into separate generation, transmission and distribution companies was supposed to have been done by 2004, under the new electricity law of 2003. For while the list of recalcitrant states includes big ones like Bihar, Kerala, Punjab and Tamil Nadu, the ones who have already done the needful include equally big states like West Bengal, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh.

In theory, once SEBs are unbundled and a regulatory system put in place along with independent fixing of tariffs, the system is ready to roll. But as the Delhi experience shows, real life reform is not so cut and dry, for the regulator too tends to look at the political feasibility of an order before passing it! In Delhi, when the regulator felt the hikes that were required in power tariffs were too high, he simply decided to impound some of the gains to the distribution firms and called them a “regulatory assetâ€

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2551
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 21 Jun 2007 07:48

Watchdog for power projects in offing

With a colossal target of augmenting power generation capacity by 76,000 MW in the next five years, the government today announced setting up of a National Power Project Management Board (NPPMB) to speed up execution of all projects on time.

Singh, after dedicating the high-capacity link East-North Tala Transmission System to the country, said that states should set up special courts to try cases of power theft.

Power Minister Sushilkumar Shinde described the transmission system as one of the largest synchronised grid system in Asia, which would save losses of about Rs 3 crore per day.

"The time has come for us to address the challenge on the energy front on a war footing. The complacency of the past, be it with respect to conventional or non-conventional sources of power, or indeed nuclear power, must end. The people of our country are not going to wait endlessly for us to sort out our administrative, political and theological problems," he said.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Postby Vipul » 22 Jun 2007 19:15

Dabhol output may go up to 5,000 Mw.

A ministerial group is mulling a proposal to increase the troubled Dabhol power plant’s capacity to 5,000 Mw from the present 2,184 Mw to ensure its long-term viability.

This is significant given that only 750 Mw of the existing capacity of the plant is operational. The cost of reviving the Dabhol power plant (at existing capacity levels) has already increased by around Rs 2,594 crore to Rs 12,897 crore. The cost of increasing the capacity has not yet been worked out.

These were among the issues discussed by the empowered group of ministers (EGoM) on Dabhol, headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, which met here on June 7. An EGoM is a ministerial group whose decisions do not require Cabinet clearance.

The EGoM is scheduled to meet again in the first week of July. By then, Dabhol’s owner, the Ratnagiri Gas and Power Pvt Ltd (RGPPL) — promoted by public sector NTPC and GAIL (India) Ltd — has to finalise details, including the completion cost of the project (at present capacity).

Should the company not meet this deadline, the EGoM will consider hiving off its 5-million-tonne per annum (mtpa) liquid natural gas (LNG) terminal and increase the cost of power by nearly 3 paise per unit.

The ministerial group has also decided that NTPC would have the first right of refusal for the LNG terminal if it is hived off, as the power utility has agreed to infuse Rs 500 crore into RGPPL.

At the last meeting, the Cabinet Secretariat had suggested that if none of the government companies in the business -- NTPC, GAIL, Petronet LNG, among others -- match a set reserve price for the LNG terminal, it should be open for bidding by other players in both public and private sectors.

It was also of the view that the LNG terminal “has the potential of being expanded to 7.5 mtpa with minimum additional costsâ€

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Postby shyamd » 28 Jun 2007 22:58

Global warming fallout could aid solar power over coal
Global warming, gas costs and carbon emissions could dramatically alter priorities for India's power sector with the possibility that by 2012, solar power could turn more attractive than imported coal and gas fuel for power generation says a report from the Strategic Management Group of the Tatas.

During the Tenth Five-year Plan that ended in March this year, only 23,000 megawatts of capacity was added against the original target of 41,000 MW. During the 11th Plan, the government has set a target of 68,000 MW.

Most of this new capacity is expected to be coal-based, either from pitheads or through imports, followed by hydro-electricity. This fuel mix is based on current capital costs and power generation costs for each fuel source.

Coal from whatever source and hydro-electricity seem clearly cheaper, and stay so even after trasnmission and distrbution costs as a result of which all efforts are under way to set up ultra mega power projects (UMPPs) of 4000 MW each using coal as fuel.

However, the study says new discoveries in the Krishna Godavari (KG) Basin along with liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports could boost gas availability. The preferred end use of gas is for fertilizers, petrochemicals, industrial applications and city distribution. The residual quantum can be used for power generation if the price is competitive.

But new supplies of gas at a price approaching $3.5 per Million British Thermal Units (mmbtu) can lead to a major swing in generation capacity in favour of gas.

Meanwhile, the Kyoto Protocol and carbon trading to reduce emissions caused by fossil fuels which were largely implemented by Europe and Japan but the US and developing countries were not covered. The consensus view is that some forms of cap and trade mechanism for Green House Gases (GHG) covering all countries could be implemented within the next 3 to 5 years to bring these countries into the net.

This would result in new power plants beyond a cut-off date, will have to factor in a cost for carbon emissions. The report points that the carbon emissions for power plants indicate that coal-based plants have the highest emissions while hydro, nuclear, wind and solar power have almost negligible carbon emissions. Gas falls somewhere in the middle.

High capital investment has kept solar power away from mass applications. However, capital expenditure has been steadily declining and is likely to touch $2 per watt by 2010 and, perhaps, hit $1.5 per watt by 2012. This could alter the economics of power, says the Tata study.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36388
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 10 Jul 2007 01:20

nothing to beat this sh!t kicker.
http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/09/stories ... 930600.htm

go village.. sh!t as much to power your streets.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 10 Jul 2007 02:57

Another area of energy importance for countries such as India is Solar Power. Germany is by far the leader amongst nations and recently in the news is US state of California and Swartzneggar's push for Solar energy credits. One company Signet Solar founded by Prabhu Goel has announced a dedicated silicon fab plant in India. Another promising company Miasole is making flexible solar strips that can be molded onto roof tops much more easily. Google and Microsoft in California have large roof top solar installations that produce most of their buildings power needs.

India needs to get serious about deploying large Solar Farms that can produce energy during the critical day time slot. It does not take much land area for producing sufficient solar power when the land mass enjoys a good sun belt of irradiation. The only issues are cost of installation. In General large buildings esp Govt owned, malls, estate planned housing should start installing roof top solar power. Many homes in Blore and elsewhere have solar heated water tanks for hot water supply.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36388
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 10 Jul 2007 03:02

This was my own idea.. but I could not think better and left it. Embed solar cells in the roof-tiles, and have connectivity between tiles by the way of a locking mechanism with contacts. But the solar panels needs to be so cheap that it should not more than double the cost of a tile.

All village houses with tiles could eventually be having solar tiles of such nature by default.

gashish
BRFite
Posts: 263
Joined: 23 May 2004 11:31
Location: BRF's tailgate party, aka, Nukkad thread

Postby gashish » 10 Jul 2007 04:22

IMO, photo-voltaic solar power is a specialised solution addressing specific situations.

The area requirements for generating respectable amount of energy are not small. Read the following link which goes through simple excercise. Though the exercise is for Texas, the results for most of India would be off by small amount.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/solar01.html

Apart from photovoltaic cells being expensive, you will have to factor in the cost of buying and maintaining a battery. All batteries have limited life and disposing these would be a huge problem in India. Imagine a dump of batteries across India as we see polythene bags today!

Another problem is the form of energy that is generated. Solar power generates DC electricity that needs to be converted into AC using Inverters during daytime while during night it could be Solar DC->Chemical Energy DC->Inverter AC. Conversions inherently bring inefficiences. Solar heat water pumps convert energy directly to heat avoiding the conversion, but this will work only during day.

Solar energy is enormous, but we just dont have efficient way to tap it for industrial usage. Do note that all life on earth is powered by Sun.
And most of energy we use is SOLAR in origin including fossil fuels and the food we consume. There is just no efficient and cheap way to tap it directly on larger scale for industrial usage (food production is by far the largest mean of tapping solar energy).

Wind power is inexpensive and more reliable, but it has its own drawbacks.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 15 Jul 2007 04:51

SEZ for renewable energy in TN

In what is claimed to be the first of its kind initiative in the world, Mumbai-based Kamala Group has teamed up with Bangalore-based MPPL Renewable Energy Private Ltd. to float a special purpose vehicle to set up a renewable energy special economic zone in Chengalpattu taluka in Kancheepuram district of Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu Energy Development Agency (TEDA) will function as the nodal organisation and facilitate the implementation of the project. Mr. Krishan said the FEZ would require 215-270 hectares of land. India offered huge market for renewable energy machinery makers. Big MNCs (multi-national companies) making machinery related to renewable energy would set up their production bases in the proposed special economic zone.

Raju

Postby Raju » 15 Jul 2007 14:22

Reliance Power Distriution companies have hit upon another money making scheme in the capital. They sell power allocated to their quota during night times and early mornings to other state distribution companies esp Maharashtra & UP for prices double that of charged by them in their local operations esp for Industrial consumers who operate during night time and other non-peak load times. This results in blackouts in various areas of delhi in the early morning and during night time. anyone else from the capital with similar experience ?

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Postby ASPuar » 15 Jul 2007 14:36

Raju wrote:Reliance Power Distriution companies have hit upon another money making scheme in the capital. They sell power allocated to their quota during night times and early mornings to other state distribution companies esp Maharashtra & UP for prices double that of charged by them in their local operations esp for Industrial consumers who operate during night time and other non-peak load times. This results in blackouts in various areas of delhi in the early morning and during night time. anyone else from the capital with similar experience ?


Havent experienced it. Reliance does south, west and east? which one do you live in?

Raju

Postby Raju » 15 Jul 2007 20:13

Near International airport. I can see the planes land from roof of my society. So south zone I guess. Btw the BSES Rajdhani customer interaction is actually funny if not sad, some young boy/girl picks up the phone, usually has no clue as to what has happened, and Reliance has changed all the substation numbers frequently whenever volume of complaints get larger so that aam junta is clueless. So when you ask the customer service representative for a local substation number or any damn contact number, he /she feigns clueless or else when pushed says that they do not have the authority to disclose number.

Conversation ends with usual expletives.

Btw during DVB days one could always contact the JE/CE or whatever without any problems. Although the organization was a usual corrupt sarkari public service organization there used to be democracy in its operations. Now it seems an americanized impersonal entity has taken its place with none of the american efficiency or reliability standards and protocols and full of the usual DESU-type excuses for inefficiency. In short the worst of both worlds, I think this is the future face of Indian public service privatization.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12865
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Postby Suraj » 18 Jul 2007 02:02

Despite strong power generation growth so far this fiscal, it is apparent that the power ministry's targets were much higher than the current achieved additions:
Power scorecard: 50% achievement in Q1
[quote]The power sector’s addition to its capacity in the first quarter of the year has been a little under half of the target, according to the latest data collated by the Central Electricity Authority (CEA).

The performance is set to deteriorate this month, with just 540 Mw set to be added against a target of 2,820 Mw, which would mean an achievement of just 35 per cent of the target for the April-July period.

Industry insiders are already doubting the ability of the country to add the targeted 17,000 Mw during the year. “Realistically speaking, the addition is unlikely to be more than 10,000 Mw,â€

sanjaychoudhry
BRFite
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jul 2007 00:39
Location: La La Land

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 18 Jul 2007 02:34

Raju wrote:Near International airport. I can see the planes land from roof of my society. So south zone I guess...I think this is the future face of Indian public service privatization.


The govt. fools have replaced a govt. monopoly with a private monopoly. The former is callous. The latter is predatory.

We just don't want privatisation, we want privatisation with competition. Why there aren't three or four companies distributing power in Delhi, and why can't we just switch suppliers, like we switch cell phone companies? If you don't want to buy power from Reliance as its bills are inflated, do you have an option?

Who told these govt. idiots that a private monopoly will be any efficient?

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5228
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Jul 2007 01:30

30-YEAR DEBT FOR SMALL HYDROPOWER PROJECTS
(to approve on a case-by-case basis)

India Business Insight
19 July 2007
[What follows is the full text of the news story.]

The National Hydropower Policy proposes to provide 30-year debt to operators of power projects up to 300 mega watts. The approval to the 30-year debt would be given on a case-by-case basis.

The move aims to attract private operators to generate hydropower. The proposed policy would facilitate the adoption of tariff-based bidding for power projects up to 300 megawatt. At present, for bidding, the cost is the main basis. If the tariff based bidding system becomes successful, the Ministry of Power, Government of India, plans to adopt the same method for larger projects as well.

The Government of India aims to exploit the hydropower potential of over 1,50,000 megawatts.

At present, India is producing only 33,600 megawatts of hydropower. The private sector is likely to invest roughly Rs17,000 crore in hydropower generation.


bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 26 Jul 2007 09:41

Smart move by India with Bhutan. Now, if we can get tie-up with Nepal (which has unfortunately become a hub for TSP ISI, Maoists) on hydel power. Tibet is a lost cause because of that idiot Nehru.

Bhutan, landmark hydel pact likely

India and Bhutan are expected to sign a landmark agreement on implementation of a 1,095 MW hydel project in that country during External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's official visit to the Kingdom from July 27.

The Punat Sangachu Wan hydel project is the latest project built with Indian assistance after Chukha, Huricha and Dhala for which India has invested over Rs 5,000 crores. The three hydel power plants together produce 1,400 MW of power. India draws power from the Bhutanese hydel plants.

The two countries also enjoy robust trade ties on the strength of a free trade regime. India accounts for a bulk of Burmese imports and exports with the quantum being over 90 per cent.

Since the two countries share a 700-km-long common border, they have been making efforts to strengthen border management. A joint plan to upgrade the border instrastructure is also on the cards.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 27 Jul 2007 03:48

Someone in GOI needs to champion Solar Energy when India has abundant sunlight. Based on this article
India can generate as much as 1,00,000 mw of solar power from an area of 60 x 60 sq km, says solar energy expert Yogi Goswami. It does not need anything more than technology already available, he adds.
Why is the government unwilling to finance this sector? Why are subsidies highly subject to conditions when the conventional power sector gets away with heavy concessions? The Minister for New and Renewable Energy, can set a target of 1000 MW of Solar Energy per state on average as a target initially, that would get India to at least 30,000 MW of solar power. “It is just a mind set,â€

Yerna
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 17 Oct 2003 11:31

Postby Yerna » 27 Jul 2007 04:07

bala wrote:Someone in GOI needs to champion Solar Energy when India has abundant sunlight. Based on this article
India can generate as much as 1,00,000 mw of solar power from an area of 60 x 60 sq km, says solar energy expert Yogi Goswami. It does not need anything more than technology already available, he adds..


So 3/4 of Indias total installed capacity can come from just a 60 sq KM piece of land and that too with available technology? How much solar energy does a 60 sq km area capture?

The land area of the lower 48 United States intercepts 50 trillion GJ per year, equivalent to 500 times the nation’s annual energy use.[52] This energy is spread over 8 million square kilometers of land area, so that each square meter is exposed to 6.1 GJ per year.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 27 Jul 2007 04:31

Southern California Edison signed a contract with Phoenix-based Stirling Energy Systems to secure 500 megawatts of electricity from a 4,500-acre solar-thermal project in the California Desert.


Based on the above roughly 500 MW is generated from 4500 acre. An acre is 4046.865 sq meters. So 100, 000 MW would take around 3642 square kms which is roughly 60 x 60 sq km. Hence Yogi Goswami is probably right on the dot. The problem with solar energy is night time power generation is zilch. But I heard from other sources that this can be potentially solved by pumping water up a gradient and recovering the energy back, but that would reduce the output by half.

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 27 Jul 2007 08:52

bala wrote:But I heard from other sources that this can be potentially solved by pumping water up a gradient and recovering the energy back, but that would reduce the output by half.


Actually much less than that.

The peak energy is only a few hours in a day. Typically 8 hours or less.

And even the smallest cloud, dust, haze will dramatically cut output.

There is at present no direct solar system that can return even the energy of its own manufacture before it wears down and must be replaced.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 27 Jul 2007 23:41

Congress ruled state of M'rashtra and recently elected President of India are a road block to Wind Energy in the state.

Suzlon shifting new projects from Maharashtra

Problems with local farm owners is forcing Suzlon Energy Ltd to shift close to 150 MW of new projects away from Maharashtra to Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Karnataka in the current financial year, according to Mr Tulsi Tanti, Chairman and Managing Director. The local residents near the wind farms are not giving ‘right of way’ to Suzlon for constructing road and power lines for the facilities . The process of taking necessary permission is taking six months, which is casing inordinate delays. Local residents in these areas are seeking exorbitant rates for selling their land for wind farms. The prices have increased by 20 times. The residents are also creating hurdles in the movement of extra large trucks and cranes needed for installing the 20-storey tall turbines.

Suzlon has installed wind turbines in 36 locations across the State with an installed capacity of 1,122 MW.

milindj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 32
Joined: 26 Aug 2005 00:12
Location: Seattle WA

Postby milindj » 28 Jul 2007 00:54

bala wrote:Congress ruled state of M'rashtra and recently elected President of India are a road block to Wind Energy in the state.


The article talks about residents asking for more money to sell their land... what does the "Congress ruled state" (which is not even mentioned in the article) have to do with it?

That remark of yours smells of some personal agenda, which has nothing to do with the news...

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 28 Jul 2007 01:26

Despite our efforts to resolve the matter, we have not been getting enough support from the State Government officials.


MilindJ,

Please read the article for the above stmt. I have no agenda other than to support renewable energy. The tactics that politicians use are quite familiar by now if you did not know: Create a ruckus and then pretend to come and solve the issue after obtaining appropriate kick-backs. The farmer's are getting plenty of renumeration with wind energy production. The politicos are the ones who are left out from the equation. Preventing a company from operation is a law and order problem and must be swiftly dealt with unless of course there is an agenda..

Suzlon is going to shift to neighboring Gujarat because it is fed up dealing with Kangress in Maharashtra.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests