Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by tandav »

Nikhil T wrote:
Sometimes I'm amazed at how our babus + netas can facilitate outlandish proposals like Hyperloop, but hold up straightforward projects for years in chai biskoots.
As Maha govt changed this decision has also come
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mumbai- ... st-2165731
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by tandav »

The big issue I find in India is the very poor public procurement systems via the L1 tendering system. Most assets are made by specifying materials and BOQs, with no regard to outcomes expected. In most such projects there is no penalty for non performance of the asset. Contractors happily do the work with the least care for quality, cutting corners in all aspects. Therefore we find roads which cannot sustain 80+ KMPH traffic, Sewage Treatment Plants that cannot give treated water quality, Drainage and Sewerage projects which are able to capture only 10-20% waste water flows rest of waste water being bypassed to storm water drains polluting our lakes and rivers. Near zero O&M funds for the assets or assets designed without O&M funds. Nearly 0 public review of public projects apart from protests by vested interests.

My proposal:
1) All assets must have a outcome statement clearly mentioned at the start of project
2) 5-10 year O&M contracts must be given along with SITC Work Orders
3) Blacklisting of contractors who do not give the quality outcomes
4) Removal of Govt Officials who delay payments to contractors
5) Currently they only allow contractor name on ongoing work and remove contractor name as soon as work is finished (the british system mentions all the relevant stakeholders prominently Contractor, Architect, Structural Consultants, PMC, Client Engineer in Charge ... this allows public to see who is doing quality work.
6)We need more emphasis on design, aesthetics, ergonomics, ecological impact and usability in public procurements and projects
Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

Agree with your sentiment, however I do think that this is a culture issue, not a process/policy issue. At its core, L1 tendering is a reasonable system. Where it fails is that (1) requirements must be drawn up correctly before the bids are invited or else, we know what happened in MMRCA v1.0 when we compared apples and oranges, and more importantly, (2) the Govt agency must do honest quality checks.

Right now, the Govt agencies have too much power over contractors and so, much of the process remains opaque. If chai biskoot or grease payments aren't provided, the agency stalls payments.

To fix the culture, we need to begin grounds up with better recruited, trained and motivated Govt employees. We need to insulate them from honest mistakes, unreasonable transfers, while keeping them accountable. E.g. just recently a high performing IAS in Mumbai Metro was transferred just because the Govt changed.
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by tandav »

Nikhil T wrote:Agree with your sentiment, however I do think that this is a culture issue, not a process/policy issue. At its core, L1 tendering is a reasonable system. Where it fails is that (1) requirements must be drawn up correctly before the bids are invited or else, we know what happened in MMRCA v1.0 when we compared apples and oranges, and more importantly, (2) the Govt agency must do honest quality checks.

Right now, the Govt agencies have too much power over contractors and so, much of the process remains opaque. If chai biskoot or grease payments aren't provided, the agency stalls payments.

To fix the culture, we need to begin grounds up with better recruited, trained and motivated Govt employees. We need to insulate them from honest mistakes, unreasonable transfers, while keeping them accountable. E.g. just recently a high performing IAS in Mumbai Metro was transferred just because the Govt changed.
1) Enforce guaranteed blacklisting of contractor for non performance by public vote 2) Go for L1 public contracts with associated garanteed and timely payment agreed and enforced by smart contracts and we will see results. I have no faith in babucracy/Poltus in ensuring fairness to contractors especially given that our political system changes and every change in political system completely shatters project viability. Let BBMP/BMC etc be run directly by political parties who are elected (let the elected poltus hire and fire babus as needed)

The true cost of providing quality public work will quickly surface. General modus operandi of contractors is via bidding 10% below to get work and cutting corners by 30% of tender value and sharing ~10% to grease the wheels and keeping 10% profit (not to mention the large Bank/NBFC loans on turnover they are able to avail to outrun any loss making activity in the short run.
vinamr_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 12 Jun 2019 09:36

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by vinamr_s »

University campuses in main citues (like JNU) account for 1000s of acres in porche and populated areas of South Delhi. It is similar for other tier-1 cities and universities. This forces people to reside in outskirts due to high prices and takes up a lot of space in these congested areas. I think govt should work on converting them into discrete colleges like DU or relocating them in the outskirts of Delhi. But, I also see few downsides to my proposal:

Making colleges discrete reduces cohesiveness and collaboration between departments, especially in institutions like IIT Delhi where students from varied engineering disciplines have to contribute to projects and research work. Discrete colleges have been manageable in universities like DU where there's less collaboration needed (as compared to college of engineering and sciences).

If we relocate them to outskirts, we will face two problems:

1. I've heard that many good professors refrain from going to universities outside of big cities (due to obvious disadvantages of staying in small cities), and hence we might reduce the quality of teaching and research in institutions if we relocate them. However, this can be solved by locating the university close to the main city such that it is accessible by personal/public transport (such as Gurgaon/Noida/Gaziabad for Delhi) but is still far away to not be in the middle of the city. But relocating it into outskirts leads to the third problem, ie

2. Metropolitans like Delhi are constantly growing outwards and sooner or later, the relocated university will look like it's in the middle of the city.

How do you think we should solve this problem? Or is it a problem at all? I'm not involved in urban planning and hence don't know if that's normal for cities and that's how they evolve to become.
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by A Nandy »

Improving connectivity to outskirts and surrounding villages like Gurgaon/Noida should work. Try to bring up discrete nearly self-sufficient economic centers surrounding the main city, so people have access to services especially medical services and have to commute "downtown" only for work.

Over time they would merge with the main city leading to a Tokyo like megapolis :P
vinamr_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 12 Jun 2019 09:36

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by vinamr_s »

A Nandy wrote:Improving connectivity to outskirts and surrounding villages like Gurgaon/Noida should work. Try to bring up discrete nearly self-sufficient economic centers surrounding the main city, so people have access to services especially medical services and have to commute "downtown" only for work.

Over time they would merge with the main city leading to a Tokyo like megapolis :P
I think you've very rightly put this: connectivity and access to services (esp medical) around the city. This should solve the problem, I guess. So, I guess my initial assumption of having 1000s of acres of land for unis etc in the middle of the city stands useless if we develop surrounding cities, right?
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by NRao »

tandav wrote:
Nikhil T wrote: Sometimes I'm amazed at how our babus + netas can facilitate outlandish proposals like Hyperloop, but hold up straightforward projects for years in chai biskoots.
As Maha govt changed this decision has also come
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mumbai- ... st-2165731
The private sector - Virgin? - should carry the risk. The City of Chicago has made such a deal with Elon Musk - his company is carrying the risk of a project very similar to Hyperloop.

____________________________________

On "planning" - India has always had a very robust and dependable "planning" component. India was the first nation in the democratic system to adopt it - in the 1930's IIRC - the then Congress party (it was called something else I think). The Soviet Union was the first non-democratic system to implement it (the Congress Party borrowed it from them).

The problem India is facing is not planning. It is the population. Some decades ago planners were told that the Indian population would top of at 1 billion. Then it was 1.1 billion, then 1.2 billion. ....... No idea what it is today. The point is that no one can "plan" for a moving population target. It is just not possible. And, the sh!t has not even hit the fan.

As an ex transportation planner, I think India should reduce "connectivity" - long distance people's movement should be reduced. No bullet trains or hyperloop (for the time being). (BTW, I love IR. Making a trip, in the next few months, specifically to ride IR. To nowhere. Just ride. Nostalgia - the only way I could get to my school or college was IR!!)

What absolutely needs to be improved is goods movement: build top-notch ports and connect them with top-of-the-line train systems (NOT roads) to major cities. A totally different rail line that does not compete with civilian movement (I think this is being done between Mundra-Mumbai?). The cheapest way to get goods around.

There is very little India can do to improve roads within cities - it needs a herculean, out of character, efforts to correct the problem (people have to learn to follow rules/laws).
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1497
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Despite hundreds of crores spent on desilting, why Mumbai could still see flooding this monsoon

https://citizenmatters.in/mumbai-flood- ... dies-19121
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12062
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Vayutuvan »

Suraj wrote:In 2020, pilgrims must have access to creature comforts as they seek to connect with their cultural roots. It should not be an effort that tests their health and/or safety.
...
To have a strong culturally united society also requires places of pilgrimage to be sources of pride - clean, accessible, well managed and run, access to which is controlled and managed smoothly - no different from anything the best parts of our major cities or better yet, the developed world (in the west or east) can offer.
I have never been to Japan but I went through several travel websites to get an idea about how they have developed their religious - Buddhist and Shinto - temple towns/cities/places of worship. It is nothing short of stunning. Obviously they have lot of money and the iron discipline to do that. If we can do even 25% of what they were able to achieve, it would improve places of pilgrimiage tenfold. I wanted to bring this up because you @Suraj might have been to some of these places IRL. Since it is OT, I will stop here.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Roads Thread

Post by Suraj »

I have been to several places of Buddhist and Shinto pilgrimage in Japan. Their setup is nothing short of amazing, yes. Kyoto is basically a 'temple town' in the Indian context though it's a major city - it was spared the kind of bombing that Tokyo faced in WW2 because US Secretary of War Stimson honeymooned there:
the couple honeymooned in Kyoto, Japan, a voyage that would prove critical in Stimson's decision not to drop a nuclear bomb on that city's exemption during the Second World War
.
Kyoto has excellent infrastructure - the ultramodern bullet train station overlooks several major roads radiating into the city. Kyoto is one of the only two required stops (other being Toyota HQ town Nagoya) between Tokyo and Osaka on the famed Tokaido Shinkansen line - the world's first bullet train.

It takes several days to see all the temples in Kyoto but getting around is super easy. Taxis are cheap, buses are frequent. Or you can walk, though it's a lot of walking (we did 8-10kms of walking a day over 2 days). Even Gion, the famed geisha area, has automobile access, except to all the narrow streets and alleyways, all of which are spotlessly clean and paved. Stations have coin operated bag lockers you can hold your valuables in.

Another place I have been to is Nikko (was there last winter). There's a scenic train service out of central Tokyo to Nikko. As with most things in Japan, having local company makes it easy due to language barrier, but there's no shortage of capability to travel and enjoy one's cultural and religious sites in great comfort and convenience.

It is my own experience there that shapes my views - I'd like for Indian culturally significant places to receive heavy investment in making them modern, with great roads, paved and smooth pedestrian areas, and very easy ability to travel there, with permit based travel to manage rate of arrival as needed. I'd much rather see such investments rather than seeing another shiny mall. I am glad the PM himself has taken the most ancient of all cities - Varanasi - under his wing to develop this way. He is also an admirer of how they have maintained their heritage.

I acknowledge fears of cultural artifacts being erased, but it's not a zero sum modernity or tradition argument. Modernity does not mean 'westernization'. Japan is a good counter-example of this, and one I advocate for India too. Modernity means we respect our past and give those living in the present a comfortable experience. The old Nikko Tokugawa shrine has a nice set of steps up - always swept clean, broken steps replaced, enough hand rails... I carried my son up all the way in a toddler backpack - it was freezing cold so I didn't really sweat at all.
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by A Nandy »

Holy hell, I just saw that bullet train station and sank a few feet :D We have just so much to build in this generation.

Small temple city onlee :lol:
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

I have seen Japanese towns, cities in Europe and Latin America. I don't think there is any one template we need to copy lock stock and barrel. In the Indian context it will end up being wasteful and perhaps useless in a few years time. I personally don't see the value of a lot of bullet trains in India. Yes, if there are bullet trains they will be used but that is true of many applications. There is no one application that fits everywhere. And this is truly alarming to one -- depending on where the technocrat has lived or where her/his kids go to school, they want to import the template lock, stock and barrel. Witness the aNiti Aayog people, especially Immanuel Kant, they all want to import America (with 12 times land pc) to India. With those who are Japanophiles, they want the bullet trains and hub and spoke. As an aside Japan has 67% forest cover compared to the 21% in India (of which plantations have been counted as green cover).

Again, to reiterate, we have to build that which is suitable to our resources both human and natural + our ethos. Yes, would love to adopt the best practices but road guzzling and massive bullet trains hub and spoke are too expensive.
Witness the ugly modern architecture buildings that are popping up under the aegis of government spending. At the very least adopt the ethos of the local traditions as there is some value to them.

Of course, completely agree that it is better to restore ancient artifacts than to build those ugly, soul crushing, small vendor killing, sink destroying malls.

As an example of so called modern architecture in India is the several new PSU building that have popped up. The ugliness is baffling. Witness the new train stations being built in local areas - why are they not following the architectural detailing of local regions? Why do they not have Kerala style structures in Kerela airports and railways, such as below?

Image

Infact, paradoxically the structures built during British India adhered more to Indian ethos and climate than modern structures.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Jarita wrote:I have seen Japanese towns, cities in Europe and Latin America. I don't think there is any one template we need to copy lock stock and barrel. In the Indian context it will end up being wasteful and perhaps useless in a few years time. I personally don't see the value of a lot of bullet trains in India. Yes, if there are bullet trains they will be used but that is true of many applications. There is no one application that fits everywhere. And this is truly alarming to one -- depending on where the technocrat has lived or where her/his kids go to school, they want to import the template lock, stock and barrel. Witness the aNiti Aayog people, especially Immanuel Kant, they all want to import America (with 12 times land pc) to India. With those who are Japanophiles, they want the bullet trains and hub and spoke. As an aside Japan has 67% forest cover compared to the 21% in India (of which plantations have been counted as green cover). And several neighborhoods in Japan and European cities are blocked off to vehicular traffic.

Again, to reiterate, we have to build that which is suitable to our resources both human and natural + our ethos. Yes, would love to adopt the best practices but road guzzling and massive bullet trains hub and spoke are too expensive.
Witness the ugly modern architecture buildings that are popping up under the aegis of government spending. At the very least adopt the ethos of the local traditions as there is some value to them.

Of course, completely agree that it is better to restore ancient artifacts than to build those ugly, soul crushing, small vendor killing, sink destroying malls.

As an example of so called modern architecture in India is the several new PSU building that have popped up. The ugliness is baffling. Witness the new train stations being built in local areas - why are they not following the architectural detailing of local regions? Why do they not have Kerala style structures in Kerela airports and railways, such as below?

Image

Infact, paradoxically the structures built during British India adhered more to Indian ethos and climate than modern structures.
Regarding density of population that one of the posters alluded to - Manhattan (not NY city) has same density as Mumbai, yet it is not polluted, has decent green cover through parks and is not falling apart despite several parts being in flood zones. Neither are there bullet trains bustling into the city. Densely populated cities can still be livable through vertical architecture which supports larger populations, reduced vehicular traffic and better organization. If you live in 3 storied chawls you are doomed because of the real estate involved. Targeted verticalization is only way for some of these cities - while holding on to 100 year old structures and being cognizant of the wetlands). Kolkata is one example where gorgeous structures have be pulled down for ugly 4 storied buildings and 20 storied structures have been built on wetlands (good luck with that). Planning, targeted development
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

A Nandy wrote:Holy hell, I just saw that bullet train station and sank a few feet :D We have just so much to build in this generation.

Small temple city onlee :lol:
The Kyoto Station is fairly new but not super recent, built turn of the century. The Tokaido Shinkansen line is an elevated line and you can see the expanse of the city from the high speed line platforms on the upper level, then take escalator down to the bus bays, taxi line, or when we visited, we simply walked over to the hotel half a km away. There's definitely language issues - one can see and experience a lot more of Japan with local company or family, including interactions with people who otherwise would not interact with you due to language barrier.

Japanese urban rail systems are built around the transit / commercial hub concept. Large stations are not merely stations - they are large commercial spaces too. Kyoto station is several levels of shops and eateries. Same for major Tokyo and Osaka stations, all of which I've been through. They have the world's busiest stations - Shinjuku station with 50+ platforms - most of it underground - and 200+ exits, Ikebukuro station, Osaka Umeda Station and Shibuya station being the top four in the world. It's pretty easy to get lost in these places, though they're well signed. None of these are even associated with the high speed lines - all are commuter stations. The central Tokyo Station is the bullet train hub. Taiwan also replicates the commercial hub system in Japan stations, not surprising since Taiwan was developed by the Japanese, and many older Taiwanese can speak Japanese.

It's no one's argument that anything should be completely copied - the Tokyo concrete expanse causes a massive urban heat island effect in summer, something any local will moan about readily - and I have messages from a SIL days ago doing just that. That much built up density causes July-August to be unbearably hot and humid, amidst heavy summer rainfall.

However, grand ideas mean nothing without implementation. An ok idea that's implemented is more consequential than a better idea that remains an idea. The thread should focus on both - the ideas and practical challenges in the way of its implementation, or lessons from prior failures.
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by A Nandy »

Yes the concrete expanse effect is a eye sore for sure. European cities like Munich seem a lot better mix of greenery and buildings with underground transport.

Off context but I wonder what happened to the Japanese economy. With such incredible infrastructure, their economic stagnation seems strange.

I recall the bullet train terminus at BKC was going to be a huge office complex. Also railways was commercializing their stations. It would make sense to build above stations maybe and rent out office space. Reduces city traffic :)
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

I'll try to answer the question of the Japanese economy from a public policy and not economy perspective, to keep relevance to this thread:

The Japanese economy may lack growth and vitality people see elsewhere - in China or India. But they don't lack for satisfaction. They have a good life, a very comfortable life in fact. Extended family includes both middle class and upper middle/wealthy folks. They all live in the same western Tokyo region, about 3-5km apart. The houses of the latter have more modern touches for sure, but the former lack for nothing. There's aircon in all rooms, modern kitchen equipment (e.g. fridges hidden behind paneling not taking up extra space), and even the super modern homes have squat toilets, because the grandparents there prefers it. They were a little embarrassed first, but I said we have those in India too, and I know how to use it, unlike a westerner who may have no idea which way their behind goes...

They have incredible amounts of accumulated wealth from 2 generations of growth. Cities and general life are well organized. It is incredibly safe. This is normal, and you'll see kids do this all the time - SHQ navigated Shibuya station daily as a small kid going to school:


So if you sit down with someone who's familiar with you and you asked them about lack of growth, they'll ask back 'what do you want out of growth ?' They're right. What's missing that needs to be built ? There's nothing decrepit and falling apart. Station or airport gets old ? It gets rebuilt. Narita airport was being completely redone last winter in anticipation of Olympics, pre-Covid. Don’t confuse stagnation with lack of maintenance; everything is kept up to date and in working order.

Even middle class folks have safety, easy access to medical care, savings, transport, everything... last winter when we were there, son's granduncle tripped and fell in the dark while trying to get a smoke outside around New Years holiday, cut his hand badly. The ambulance was quick, he had himself quickly bandaged at the local clinic, and there was nothing more than a nominal fee for it all, from my recollection.

Sure it's not all rosy, and their culture has lots of negatives around overwork, treatment of women etc. But in terms of personal life, public policy and infrastructure ? They've very little missing. A Japanese passport opens doors almost everywhere - in India it is the only country with visa on arrival - all others have the e-Visa registration to do, or an actual visa. Last time at Mumbai arrivals we were told the Japanese passport holders don't need eVisa and should just take the portal marked 'Visa on Arrival for Japanese nationals only'.

They have all basics of personal Maslows needs and general public policy figured out. At that point, what is 'growth' ?
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Deleted.
Last edited by Suraj on 12 Aug 2020 20:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Same content cross posted in multiple threads . Retained in Nature Conservation thread.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

^^^ Delete again

Below is an interesting write up on how cities are planning their infrastructure and leveraging real estate. Some of the larger cities in India grow vegetables for sale - Delhi, outskirts of Mumbai and even Kolkata but that is fast receding as that land gets taken over for real estate and roads. The whole rationale is that some food should be grown as close to consumption as possible to ensure localised food security.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016- ... 2-44963957
The hidden potential of urban horticulture
Food insecurity is a growing issue in the Global North1,2, where the majority of the population (sometimes in excess of 80%) lives in urban areas3. Food production in urban areas, particularly horticultural production4,5, is increasingly recognized at all levels of governance, from local to transnational, as an important contributor to food security6. Despite this recognition, there have been few attempts to analyse the feasibility of urban horticulture (UH) in terms of the space available within the urban fabric.
Furthermore, for sustainable and efficient running of these systems, they should capture heat from buildings, use renewable energy and obtain water from sustainable sources, such as rainwater harvesting.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

This is a two year article but more than relevant to India where the few greens and public spaces available are being decimated for roads and relentless concrete. Most cities are realizing that building more roads will just drive up the pollution through induced demand. The future is car reduced cities. Imagine the real estate saved from reduced roads, parking and that big car parked in the frontyard where kids should be playing. I have seen the tiny older homes with their contained area for children to play completely taken over by a car. Eventually vehicles should not take up more space than the living areas for humans. We have to live, play and breathe and not just move from place to place on a road. Below are just examples and India has to do even more.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cities- ... ban-2017-8
13 cities that are starting to ban cars
Starting in November, Madrid will bar non-resident vehicles from driving anywhere in the city center. The only cars that will be allowed downtown will be those that belong to locals, zero-emissions delivery vehicles, taxis, and public transit like buses.
The Norwegian capital will invest heavily in public transportation and replace 35 miles of roads previously dominated by cars with bike lanes.
Madrid plans to ban cars from 500 acres of its city center by 2020, with urban planners redesigning 24 of the city's busiest streets for walking rather than driving.
While Chengdu won't completely ban cars, only half the roads in the 80,000-person city will allow vehicles. The firm originally planned to make this happen by 2020, but zoning issues are delaying the deadline.
Within the next two decades, Hamburg will reduce the number of cars by only allowing pedestrians and bikers to enter certain areas.
The mayor says Paris also plans to double its bike lanes and limit select streets to electric cars by 2020. The city also continues to make smaller, short-term efforts to curb emissions — its first car-free day was in 2015, and it instated a car-free Sundays rule in 2016.
In April 2016, Mexico City's local government decided to prohibit a portion of cars from driving into the city center two days every work week and two Saturdays per month. It determines which cars can drive on a given day using a rotating system based on license plate numbers.
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by darshan »

What are the available options to handle issues arising from vertical housing? Issues like generators, water, sewage, garbage, recycling, fire safety, earth quake, etc. Then there are additional niceties that SC had commented on IIRC.

How to handle any ramifications of short cuts taken down the road? Insurance premiums to govt?

Gujarat government to permit buildings taller than 70-storey in five cities
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2020/08/18/ ... ve-cities/
Buildings with a height of over 100 metres will have a fresh set of regulations. These regulations will also be applicable for buildings with an aspect ratio of 1:9 or more.A special technical committee will be appointed by Gujarat government for inspection of tall buildings in the state. IN D1 category this provision will be effective in AUDA, SUDA, VUDA, RUDA and GUDA area where present CGDCR offers base FSI 1.2 or more. Approval will be given on 30 meter or wider DP, TP roads. According to new regulations, buildings in five big cities with a height of between 100 -150 meters, will need to have a plot size of 2,500 square metres. Buildings with a height of over 150 metres will be required to have a plot size of 3,500 square metres.Tall buildings in the state will be eligible for a maximum FSI of 5.4.Depending on which zone they are in, the base FSI will be free, while the remainder FSI will be chargeable. The premium FSI will be charged at 50% of the `jantri’ rate. All tall buildings in the state will compulsorily have to have electric charging facilities in parking spaces. Each tall building will have to pass the wind-tunnel test and have a disaster management plan. All tall buildings in the state will compulsorily have to have electric charging facilities in parking spaces. Each tall building will have to pass the wind-tunnel test and have a disaster management plan.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Its not just about making tall buildings, the impact on urban infra and living comfort due to concentrating additional x1000s of people, and the magnet effect on surrounding areas must also be planned for.
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by A Nandy »

https://www.urbantransportnews.com/indi ... ndra-modi/
Integrated transport system is going to develop in India as under the National Infrastructure Pipeline it will spend more than Rs 110 trillion on infrastructure sector in the next 5 years. Across India, the finance ministry has identified around 7000 projects for the development of infrastructure for the transportation sector.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that the country needs the overall direction in the infrastructure sector. And for this, we have to develop an integrated transportation system across the country which will connect various modes of transport such as rail, road, water, and air.

He added, “To bring integrated transportation system we have to break the era of working in silos in infrastructure”.

Listing to the positive sides of the integrated transportation system, the Prime Minister said that this will cut travel time and make the transportation systems more efficient and facilitate the smooth transfer of goods.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Have long argued that we need to reduce the vehicular burden in our mega cities. We literally need to pause and rethink and redesign else, livability except for the Mannat types is a near impossibility.
Some discussions from other parts of the world.

Is It Time To Take Highways Out Of Cities?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammillsa ... 17edba1a04
Several stretches of highway within cities’ boundaries do little to facilitate inter-state travel and come with a host of negative impacts on the cities that contain them.
What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2019 ... ts-streets
For the last 100 years, the car has come to dominate the urban landscape. Streets have been widened in many cities to accommodate automobiles, and huge amounts of space are given over to parking them. Private vehicles have revolutionised mobility, but they have also introduced many ills, from air pollution to traffic accidents. And today a small but growing number of cities are trying to design the car out of the urban landscape altogether.

Both Oslo in Norway and the Spanish capital Madrid have made headlines in recent years for their plans to ban cars from their centres – although neither have entirely got rid of them yet.
Cars take up way too much space in cities. New technology could change that.
https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-futur ... chnologies
There’s the space the cars themselves occupy. The average car, two hulking tons of steel, is 80 percent empty when it’s being driven by a single person. And most of the day, cars are totally empty, sitting unused.
Image

Image
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by tandav »

With respect to recent flooding in many cities in India such as recent Hyderabad floods.
In USA most developments have a mandatory (enforced by town planning) detention pond on the premises that are designed to hold storm water and release it over 48 hrs. In India these rain water retention ponds have become real estate causing all these problems. Poor city planning illegal colonies and even worse implementation is to blame
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by A Nandy »

https://twitter.com/i/status/1343445451140284416
Privileged to be present at inauguration of India’s 1st driverless metro on @officialDMRC’s Magenta Line (Janakpuri West to Botanical Garden) & first fully operational National Common Mobility Card Compliant Metro Network on Airport Express line by Hon’bl PM Sh @narendramodi Ji.

Fully automated metro trains will reduce human intervention in operations & offer more reliability & safety for commuters. The number of trains in service can be regulated based on demand dynamically without any dependence on availability of the crew.

With today’s inauguration of driverless train on magenta line by Hon’ble PM, Delhi Metro enters into the league of 7% such network across the globe. Further, after getting Pink line operational for driverless service by June‘21, India will contribute 9% of world’s such network.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

West Bengal cities missing , Did the local Gov not cooperate ?
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

vinamr_s wrote:University campuses in main citues (like JNU) account for 1000s of acres in porche and populated areas of South Delhi. It is similar for other tier-1 cities and universities. This forces people to reside in outskirts due to high prices and takes up a lot of space in these congested areas. I think govt should work on converting them into discrete colleges like DU or relocating them in the outskirts of Delhi.
Thank god there are some large university campuses, institutes and sometimes PSUs in our cities. Most were once in outskirts but the cities have grown around them and engulfed them. Now these lands are provide much needed green lungs to our haphazardly growing urban jungles. Many such campuses are open to public access and offer a few quiet roads and paths where people can walk, jog etc. Hope more of them open up, at least on weekends for restricted public access.
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by darshan »

It would have been nice to see further information about emergency services, fire code guidelines, traffic management, sewage plants, pollution control plans, sensor grids, etc. Hopefully, journalists start to dig in further.
GIFT City’s residential development gets boost with fresh decision by Gujarat govt
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2021/03/10/ ... arat-govt/
In a significant move, which will boost development at GIFT City, Government of Gujarat has issued a resolution allowing those not working within GIFT City to reside in the City. Hitherto only those working in GIFT City could occupy residences there. Government has earlier relaxed the ownership condition by which any entity could develop and own residential property in GIFT City. With this relaxation both ownership and occupancy conditions are no longer restrictive and open to all. However, the relaxation would be limited to the first 5000 residential units, or for units whose construction begins before March 31, 2023, whichever is earlier.
....
Of the proposed 62 million square feet of vertical development in GIFT City, the residential area of 14 million square feet is planned and will occupy 22 per cent of the total development. Some of the infrastructure facilities which make GIFT City an attractive destination for real estate developers such as district cooling system, underground utility tunnel, automated waste collection system etc. few of which have been implemented for the 1st time in India.

Currently around 10,000 people are working in 225 units in GIFT City. With the recent tax incentives announced in Union Budget coupled with stamp duty exemption by Gujarat government, GIFT City is witnessing heightened interest for participation from corporates who want to do their offshore business onshore from GIFT City.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Ambar »

AkshaySG wrote:
West Bengal cities missing , Did the local Gov not cooperate ?
The EoLI 2020 strengthens its scope by consolidating the framework with the addition of a Citizen Perception Survey in the index, holding a weightage of 30%. It, therefore, examines the outcomes that lead to existing living conditions through pillars of Quality of Life, Economic Ability, Sustainability, spanning across 13 categories of -Education, Health, Housing and Shelter, WASH and SWM, Mobility, Safety and Security, Recreation, Level of Economic Development, Economic Opportunities, Environment, Green Spaces, and Buildings, Energy Consumption, and City Resilience, that account for 70% of the overall outcome.
It is mostly driven by economic indicators else no one in their right mind would think of "Bangalore" and "quality of life" in the same sentence. If lung choking dust and pollution, gridlocked traffic jams even at midnight, 2 hr long commute times, lack of piped water and drains, corrupt corporators and bureaucrats and frothy, bubbling housing prices were the parameters then Bangalore surely would beat all other cities. Like many government studies, this one too should be taken with a generous pinch of salt.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Ambar wrote:
It is mostly driven by economic indicators else no one in their right mind would think of "Bangalore" and "quality of life" in the same sentence. If lung choking dust and pollution, gridlocked traffic jams even at midnight, 2 hr long commute times, lack of piped water and drains, corrupt corporators and bureaucrats and frothy, bubbling housing prices were the parameters then Bangalore surely would beat all other cities. Like many government studies, this one too should be taken with a generous pinch of salt.
True but then again it only states that BLR came ahead of others ( A lot of whom suffer from the exact same issues if not more ) , Not that BLR is a great city to live in .

From the other 1 mil + cities which ones offer a better "quality of life " in your opinion .... Ahmedabad and Navi Mumbai maybe but most others i'd rank below BLR imo

https://livabilitystore175634-prod.s3.a ... Report.pdf

Here's the actual in depth analysis , it does seem to go beyond economic indices and include things like water supply,waste mgmt etc but only they know strictly these things were surveyed and what areas of a city were chosen and what were left out

Because in our cities we have some neighborhoods that could rival Scandinavia on their lifestyle index and some who are worse off than Sub Saharan Africa
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Ambar »

You are absolutely right about the great disparity in quality of life or even basic necessities between neighborhoods in the same city. Most of our densely populated cities are borderline uninhabitable today, we are paying a heavy price for ignoring job creation in smaller cities and towns and just promoting industries and employment in metros.

Most neighborhoods in Bangalore, including some posh ones where per sq.ft prices rivals prime real estate in NYC or London or Amsterdam have no piped water. Sure, the homes are piped but there is no 24x7 water supply, so most residents are subservient to the water tanker mafia. Unexpected 2 inches of rains also means raw sewage flooding into some of the multi-crore rupee homes in swankiest of neighborhoods because those buildings were built upon encroached lake beds with little to no planning.

The only big city that i've comes across with decent infrastructure, tolerable pollution, cleanliness, affordable with reasonable commute time is Indore. But even Indore suffers from the same problem as other parts of India where just 10 kms outside Indore's borders there's nothing but vast farm lands and small villages.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

In public policy terms, there's an inflection point at which urban investment dramatically accelerates. Typically, this happens around when the urban:rural ratio hits the 35:65 to 40:60 mark.

China hit the 35:65 ratio for rural:urban around 1998. India is about to hit that mark in 2021. China urbanized rapidly in the 2000s. Entire cities were built, or flattened and rebuilt. It was partly driven by the ability to direct revenues into the cities without facing opposition from a rural population, since urbanization was already the one way move people were making en masse.

As with the critical mass theory elsewhere in politics, once the urban population reaches a threshold people drive for more urbanization, better urbanization and greater investment into quality of life in the cities. At some point rural life is not so desperate that rural people become intent on migrating to cities, so that greater investment in cities does not come at a rural political cost.

This inflection point is the point where rural area have basic sanitation, water, electricity, roads etc such that the ease of movement to urban areas is significantly lightened and they fundamentally have a dignified life, and able to envision how to get richer - any sane person in that situation will head to the city, and thus they too want the cities to be in good shape.

India is at the threshold of this point, where it can invest massively in cities without rural subsidization getting in the way, or cities cross-subsidizing the rural hinterland as is the case now.
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Ambar »

Very interesting point Suraj san. Your inflection point theory resonates with what Mohandas Pai said a while ago that our development model compared to China is the reason for our urban woes. Our cities are hyper-populated and very polluted because we chased capital intensive industries instead of going after labour intensive industries. Had we gone after the later then low-skilled manufacturing would have brought in uniformed urbanization, instead of capital intensive development which drained the labor from all over the country into 15 odd metros.

We are in some ways at an advantage over China because of our service industry driven economy. It is easier to relocate services than it is to move manufacturing units. Where we are at a disadvantage is our reactionary urban planning. We are solving a problem at a specific point in time instead of planning 25-50 yrs ahead. London underground was developed in late 19th century, NY subway and Paris transit in early 20th century, while developing mass transit, they were also thinking of housing development, public spaces, commercial zoning and they have since stuck to that plan. Our urban growth unfortunately has/is mostly organic, population increases, cities grow wider, former farm lands are converted into housing and commercial development lots, buildings and streets come up even before front foot connectivity and only years later when something becomes an obstacle does the government get involved with a bulldozer.

The plan ahead in my opinion should be the following :

a. Attract new investment both services and manufacturing in labour rich areas away from metros.
b. Build new cities from the scratch with a 50 yr development plan. For all the blame our 5 yr plans got (and rightly so), following USSR model did give us handful of brand new planned cities like Bhilai and Bokaro . Its not a bad idea to build cities from scratch instead of coming up with band-aid solutions for our existing cities.
c. Connectivity should be the backbone of any new city planning. Unless roads and public transit connectivity guarantees a meaningful expansion, most people will crowd into city centers.
d. Front foot connectivity must be compulsory before constructing anything. We have extensions and new layouts in many of our cities where houses come up first , water is either bored or more often transported and 10 yrs later the public water connectivity reaches the area (ofcourse the pipes are usually dry but thats a different story).

Btw, just for giggles here's a house for sale in Worli, Mumbai - https://www.99acres.com/8-bhk-bedroom-i ... -F31258073

Only 499 crores or roughly $4000/ sq ft ! How is our real estate valued ? Who are the buyers ? Why is our valuable capital sunk in blackholes like over priced properties in our metros is a discussion for another thread, another day.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

India's urban development woes are not just about capital intensive or labour intensive development. Its due to piss poor urban planning and near zero effective IMPLEMENTATION of even existing rules. Every political party has feasted on conversion of suburban agricultural lands into residential/industrial/semi-industrial zones and have made billions if not trillions of black money. Land records, layouts etc can all be bought, faked or manipulated anywhere in India. Zoning rules are flouted with impunity or changed as the party in power wants to fill its coffers.

Urbanisation happens with amazing speed before utilities and roads planned and are put in, when they finally come, the load is 10x what they were designed and sized for, creating huge traffic problems, pollution of air, water, light, noise..., choking poor residents to death, rich residents to slower death.

Even in previously decent areas, its becoming the norm to buy several houses, raze them and build multi-storey apartment blocks that block everything - light, air, traffic, greenery... This trend will not abate.

Our Tier I, II & III cities have and continue to grow like cancers, in literal and figurative terms. And unlike China its impossible to raze and rebuild in India. We are condemned to suffer the consequences, including loss of heritage structures, neighbourhoods and lifestyle in most cities. Living in Europe where its diametrically opposite, the heartburn and sadness is unbearable every time I visit India.
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1497
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Haresh »

CityTree: a Moss Wall with the Pollution Fighting Power of 275 Trees

https://en.reset.org/blog/citytree-moss ... s-11302017
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Wish we could flip our Olympics medal tally with this one

Image

Scroll down to see more performance in the top 50.

https://www.iqair.com/us/world-most-polluted-cities
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by sudarshan »

Jarita wrote:Wish we could flip our Olympics medal tally with this one

...

Scroll down to see more performance in the top 50.

https://www.iqair.com/us/world-most-polluted-cities
Thank you for posting this.

As an exercise, I request folks to compare the 2017, 2018, and 2019 averages for each city (from the above chart itself). For most cities, 2019 is lower or even way lower than 2018 or 2017. The remaining 3 cities are missing data, so there's no way to tell. 2019 is pre-COVID, so it is not a lockdown effect.

What I find funny is that the 2020 averages seem to be higher all across, despite the lockdown. Something odd there.

Having noted the above, I would like to list out the measures already taken (and implemented) by the Modi govt. to address this.

1. Implementation of BS-VI norms 4 years ahead of schedule, directly from BS-IV, skipping BS-V entirely.
2. Forcing all manufacturers of vehicles to comply with BS-VI from the get go, with no grace period over which already manufactured BS-IV vehicles could continue to be sold (basically, all unsold BS-IV compliant vehicles were *scrapped* outright).
3. Forcing fuel manufacturers to comply with BS-VI norms, currently, despite COVID, BS-VI rollout, both vehicle- and fuel-wise, is complete.
4. Announcement of a scrappage policy for existing (already sold) BS-IV vehicles on the road. This incentivizes consumers to buy newer BS-VI vehicles, scrapping old polluting ones.
5. Electric vehicle policy - especially 2- and 3- wheelers, which are the most polluting segment, and also buses and trucks.
6. Cleaning up the power grid, India is already at 35% renewable component in power production, heading for 40%.
7. Attempts to ban stubble burning, except that Punjab and Haryana have no intentions of cooperating on that one.

Can the Modi govt. do better? Suggestions welcome.

Oh yeah, and then, there was Kejri's odd-even policy....

EDIT: I would also like to point out that in 2017, all 7 Indian cities for which there is data, were worse than that one Chinese city. In 2018, 4 out of 8 Indian cities for which there is data, were worse than that Chinese city. In 2019, the Chinese city has moved to #2 slot, and all the listed Indian cities, except Ghaziabad, are below. In 2020, the Chinese city is #1 unambiguously. Sounds like good news to me.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Universal car ownership is unattainable and unfeasible. We simply cannot build enough roads to accommodate them.


Image





A car free town center
https://twitter.com/carlafrancome/statu ... 5232262145




https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/202 ... s-urbanism
Miyazaki’s films feature intricately fantastic, yet grounded worlds. But for a few elements, like the aircraft of Castle in the Sky or Porco Rosso, many of them look like they could be real. But Miyazaki has a secret he’s been hiding in plain sight for years: he’s one of the best urban designers and thinkers of our time.

Koriko’s buildings are close together and built right to the lot line. The streets are narrow or tree-lined. And there doesn’t appear to be a parking lot anywhere. Only the clock tower exceeds six stories in height, although the scale can be confusing. There’s a real sense of place and life, a lived-in quality that’s often lacking in experimental new towns like Poundbury.
Post Reply