Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

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Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Aug 2015 20:31

I'm not sure how the Amaravati land acquisition is going but last I heard it was messed up dramatically with a minor war on the administrations hands... ..so I would hesitate to call that a success so far.

The ORR in Chennai is 400 foot road and it cost Rs 2000 crore to build including land acquisition. The main arteries are not relatively difficult to build but it is the collector/feeder roads that remain the problem. For instance the roads that lead off the ORR are rarely just 50 foot roads. Most often they are a bare 20foot or 30 foot road and at every 200-300 feet or so. You can see the chaos the city is setting itself up for. Where the public planning ends and the private planning begins is chaos….

Vayutuvan
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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Aug 2015 21:19

If you want to see what it means to mess up planning in a major way with politicians buying large tracts through insider information of where the parks/development is coming up, then run to Jet, buy a ticket to Pune and take a cab at around 6 AM to reach Baner around 8AM and on-wards.

People are still flocking to this place where as places in the south like Hyd., and Chennai are much better. Unfortunately Hyd. lost the sheen due to overbuilding and provides very small advantage (living is VFM in Hyd.) over Pune. Chennai seems to be the best of all metros.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby arshyam » 24 Aug 2015 21:36

@Supratik saar. Adding to Theo saar's post above, Chennai has enough wide arterial roads, so that's not the issue really. Anna Salai, PH Road, IRR, OMR, GST Road, Mount-Poonamallee Road, Velachery Road, Sardar Patel Road, Beach Road, etc. are decently spread out through the city and act as heavy traffic movers. I don't expect you to know these roads by name if not familiar with the city, but I mentioned them to give an idea of the geographical spread of these arteries in case you want to spend some time with Google to understand the issue. Most of them are 6 lane, but due to road side shops and parking, the effective road space gets reduced. And the new ones built near the suburbs are better - Vandalur-Kelambakkam road (4 full lanes), Thoraipakkam-Pallavaram radial road (4/6 lanes), IRR extension into Velachery (4/6 lanes) Chennai bypass (6 full lanes), ORR (6 full lanes with service lanes and space between the carriageway for BRTS/MRTS in the future), future Peripheral Ring Road (already at 6 lanes in parts) etc. There seems to be a realization that we need to build wider roads at the outset itself and not wait for development to first happen, as was the case till now.

But the main problem is the smaller interior roads, which are only 30-40 feet wide, and effective width of these roads are maybe half that due to various reasons - small shops, parking, what have you. And many such small roads open out on to the arterials at 90 deg angles without any provision for a smooth turn, which means traffic is slow turning into/out of them. This backs out on to the arterials and slows down traffic on them. Some small interior roads are wider, but not by much - 50 ft probably. And the bus network, though extensive, has to take these smaller roads also, and you can imagine the speed at which they move. There were some planned layouts done in the seventies that dealt with these issues by allocating wider road spaces, but for some reason that planning department/CMDA took a holiday after that. New layouts are done by a toddler playing with a toy bus and car, so the roads are reflecting that. Or maybe they thought we will all have 2 wheelers onlee, so no need to plan for car ownership down the road. This mentality also continues, even though the arterials have gotten wider as I said above.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby arshyam » 24 Aug 2015 21:42

vayu tuvan wrote:People are still flocking to this place where as places in the south like Hyd., and Chennai are much better. Unfortunately Hyd. lost the sheen due to overbuilding and provides very small advantage (living is VFM in Hyd.) over Pune. Chennai seems to be the best of all metros.

One advantage Chennai has, though unacknowledged/unknown by folks from elsewhere is the coastal location. So the sea breeze that sets in every afternoon helps blow the pollution away for the most part, and the weather being hot and clear through most of the year means no smog/fog like in the hinterland cities.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Aug 2015 23:42

arshyam wrote:New layouts are done by a toddler playing with a toy bus and car, so the roads are reflecting that. Or maybe they thought we will all have 2 wheelers onlee, so no need to plan for car ownership down the road. This mentality also continues, even though the arterials have gotten wider as I said above.


Arshyam,

Chennai is not planned for car traffic, in fact I doubt it ever will be. I believe the planning still calls for high density city neighborhoods. The plan is still for 10,000/sqkm type density or roughly 50 per acre or roughly 5 persons per 40x90 residential plot. As you can see that type of density is livable. Only public transport is meant to serve the city. Maybe share taxi’s, etc. It is another matter that city density now far exceeds 40,000/sqkm. If the city is able to quadruple in size and reduce the density to 10,000/sqkm it would be far more livable and may actually manage to pull it off. Revising the rules for collective planning, along with some draconian Eminent Domain rules will help the planning improve.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Prasad » 24 Aug 2015 23:59

On my recent visit, i did a pretty big tour around my usual haunts - mylapore, ra puram etc. The number of cars parked on the roads by residents is mind-boggling. Sure there were always the wealthier sections of these areas with their cars but now? Every house has one parked outside. 3 car-wide roads are now 1-car wide due to this parking issue. That is how the car population has exploded. And driving has become terrible, to put it mildly. The areas around the newly built roads mentioned above have the problem of old neighbourhoods with new roads. Selayur for ex. Brand new excellent road to lead into an area that has roads to fit 1 car and 1 bike at the same time. Planning decades ahead is needed, otherwise we're stuck!

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 25 Aug 2015 00:14

Another way is to let the current metros sink in their own excreta but build shiny new cities ground up a little way from the metros. Something like Phoenix, AZ or even most of the US.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 25 Aug 2015 01:59, edited 1 time in total.

arshyam
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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Aug 2015 01:47

Theo saar, I actually agree with planning for non-car mode of transportation, as we simply cannot support an economy where every one has a car, like in the US. We need to rely on public transport. However, the problem is two fold: the planners don't have a say in running city buses, so there is no guarantee that public transport will be available in a specific street. The second is enforcement, which is definitely within the realm of CMDA. Allowing multi-storey apartments on single home plots without adequate car parking is what's leading to the mess, with the first problem leading to increased car/bike ownership.

Prasad saar's example of RA Puram is a classic example: in my school days, I remember the 3rd main road of RA Puram having only one (maybe two) apartment complex(es), and the rest were single homes. The road was wide and straight, fully tree lined. Bicycles were safe to ride. Light traffic, as should be in a pure residential street. Cut to today, the entire RA Puram is a mess. How many of those single family homes survive? And the RA Puram main road is one of the examples of my earlier post - 50 ft wide bus route roads. And with restaurants like Sangeetha opening their doors on the main road without any provision for off-street parking, what can we expect? There was a time when traffic used to flow through these roads efficiently - in fact, I remember the Chennai Kaliappa signal and the next one on Abhirampuram main road to be perfectly synchronized! This was before advent of electronic interlocking signals, or whatever they are called.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 25 Aug 2015 02:02

Even in the US near future it will become difficult unless either one of the two things happen - an alternative to oil as energy source is found or MRT is developed along with better rail connectivity. Air-travel is not only becoming expensive but cumbersome as well what with all the security checks, congestion at the airports and traffic problems in and around airport approach roads.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 25 Aug 2015 17:41

I don't think you can any longer stop people from buying cars. In the NCR region most middle class people have two cars. The only solution is public transport and hope the congestion forces people to move to state-of-the-art public transport. We don't need an American solution but a Japanese one. I also felt the arterial roads in both Hyd and Chen were OK but they messed up in designing the layouts specially wrt ingress and exits to arterial roads. Don't know what the thinking was. In contrast Kolkata which saw very little development has planned areas like Salt Lake and Rajarhat that form a grid. So both Hyd and Chen look relatively new but very messed up as far as putting a grid in place goes. Going forth they would need to do a lot of mending to create a smooth grid.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 27 Aug 2015 19:04


Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 27 Aug 2015 20:14

Supratik wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/centre-releases-list-of-98-cities-for-smart-city-project/article7586751.ece?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=RSS_Syndication&ref=yfp

smart city list out.


The TN list is disappointing. That essentially the 10 largest cities in TN.
I was hoping the the smaller cities around would be given more importance as you can get more bang for buck in these areas.
For instance Kanchipuram near Chennai would have been a good candidate.
So would have Mettupalayam near Coimbatore.
Obvious the SG is not paying attention. Looks like another Babugiri list...

Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 27 Aug 2015 20:24

Supratik wrote:I don't think you can any longer stop people from buying cars.


I fear you are correct.

As long as planning requires off street parking the car owning itself is not a problem. The real problem comes when folks try to make long commutes/trip continually in their cars. Occasional use and emergency use is not an issue. Parking is definitely an issue. Illegally parked cars will have to be towed. For instance most people in Japan/SoKo /EU type places own cars/motorcycle/etc. They just don’t use them for peak hour activities. Kids walk to school, metro to work, HSR for family trips, etc. Even in Manhattan, all areas are car accessible but due to the cost of parking, $10,000+ pm, very few attempt it. Even the millionaires and Billionaires use the metro/maybe taxi as it is far faster than even a Helicopter ride. Cars are wonderful for personal freedom but the way Chennai is planned and growing, it is not meant to be feasible for daily constant use….. ..more financially punitive measures will be required for car owners to pay the true cost of taking their cars on the roads....

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby SwamyG » 27 Aug 2015 22:24

Theo: The responsibilities to nominate rested on the States, so it is TN that has nominated those 12 cities.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 27 Aug 2015 23:38

Swamy saar, did you bother to read what I wrote? If not read again...


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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 20 Oct 2015 18:16

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 23&page=33

Tendersure road progress in Bglr. Those who were unhappy previously with pavement width should note the limited pavement widths in this section.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Oct 2015 20:38

I used to remember those days when we had punjabi home food lunch road side sold from jeeps. Rs 10-15 on cunningham road! straight down cdac.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Oct 2015 20:44

Suprantik, That is heart warming to read. Those roads look like a great beginning. Unfortunately it looks like the residents have already filled up the parking, not having made any allowances on their property. City will need to do 2 hour limits to make the system work.

BTW it appears they have widened the road by deleting the bicycle lane, kinda short sighted if you ask me, still a great beginning....

Where are all those critics we had earlier, I wonder.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 20 Oct 2015 21:46

Paid parking should be the next step along with public transport particularly metro. That would decongest the CBD.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Haresh » 21 Oct 2015 00:29

That's a very impressive road.
I do have a question though.
On many pictures I have seen of new Indian roads, they never have the lanes divided by paint. Why is that? surely it would help road discipline.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 21 Oct 2015 01:51

I think the pictures were taken before the road lanes were painted. Regardless, the TenderSURE road and footpaths are way better than what existed. I hope entire major Indian cities revamp all their road infrastructure using this simple effective template.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 21 Oct 2015 09:38

Does anyone know who the prime mover is behind tendersure? Main designer too would be interesting..

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Oct 2015 02:49

we should move over to machines, robots and equipment for sewage management. from blowers to vacuums, they can import trucks as experiment and slowly a make in india done for swacch. [assuming there is none]

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Oct 2015 08:12


Supratik
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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2015 19:34

I think it is an ngo called Janagraha which is behind Tendersure. I hope CBN in his attempt to make a Singapore in Amravati doesn't loose the state by ignoring the rest of the state. That was his failure last time.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2015 21:14

Amaravati is a great opportunity to build a city that puts everything else in the country to shame. A halo city like nothing else - on par with the best anywhere else for quality of infrastructure and life.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2015 21:39

I like the guy but his failure last time was too much focus on Hyderabad which ultimately led to two terms out of power. I hope he doesn't make the same mistake.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2015 21:53

No politics here, please. There's no need to drag that topic into everything else.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Bade » 23 Oct 2015 22:02

Other than Chandigarh are there any other examples of even half successful attempts in India to make a modern city from the scratch. I thought Gandhinagar was one such attempt done a long time ago. But having visited there was not impressed. Have yet to go to Chandigarh.

Can any lessons from the Chandigarh experience be of value for new cities ?

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2015 22:23

Naya Raipur is one of them built recently. However, the best examples I have seen in India are Chandigarh (small) and NCR (really big).

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 24 Oct 2015 17:33

You forgot Harappa , Mohan Jo daro, Lothal, Rakhigarhi in Haryana( oldest one), all started as Modern town when there was no gora culture.

Anyway Lutyens Delhi in recent past. In medieval India all townships were planned one ( for smaller population) and same goes for old capitals in ancient India. In Modern European History , all french enclaves , esp Pondicherry, are planned ones, nicely done. Same goes for Goa. India has history of planned development of urban agglomeration. One needs to look within to find the founding principles of urban civilisation.

Haphazard development has taken place in non white areas in colonial period and thereafter.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby member_29172 » 24 Oct 2015 22:43

Navi Mumbai, Naya Raipur, Nayi Dilli, Pune to some extent, Chandigarh
and these are in the last 50ish years, there are more if you go back

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 24 Oct 2015 23:03

Please focus on the present context. There's a common tendency to lose focus and talk about hoary pasts and other things besides the actual topic. It takes threads off track and becomes a maintenance load necessitating moderating action.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 24 Oct 2015 23:09

Any info on the number, heights and prospective occupants of the skyscrapers? Will be one heck of a skyline if built what's being shown in the plan.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 25 Oct 2015 08:33

Suraj wrote:Please focus on the present context. There's a common tendency to lose focus and talk about hoary pasts and other things besides the actual topic. It takes threads off track and becomes a maintenance load necessitating moderating action.

All are examples par excellence. Physical evidences, not something in "hoary past" like back to Vedas or carbon dating Ramayana or Mahabharata, are found in plenty. In fact Pondicherry, which was planned for 50000 citizens , could be modern example of town planning. One can easily find that principles of smart cities are not something new but very basic, to make lives of citizens comfortable, convenient and affordable. IVC sites gives these basic ideas if once can study and implement them even now. Pre independence colonial period and post independence town planning has been characterised by its absence in concepts and practices like many of the things destroyed by britishers.In fact if you look at some of the villages, they were equally planned ones. Not so now. Planned town areas and cantonments were reserved for elites, colonialist and those in power structure. Rest were doing as could be done.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Bade » 25 Oct 2015 08:36

Keep in mind that the Indian population went up by a factor of 10 over a century or more. So old designs may not hold for the super dense settlements of modern times.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 25 Oct 2015 09:05

I understand that. At any given time urban agglomeration would be dense or super dense ( relatively speaking ) and provide more facilities to citizens than non urban areas.Basic ideas remain the same: Comfortable, convenient and affordable. We can elaborate on these ideas and how to implement them within our cultural ethos. else Smart cities would only be dumb imitation of some european cities.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 25 Oct 2015 09:35

chaanakya, your second post may be on topic but half your first post is not. Please stick to the topic instead of bringing up 'gora culture', colonialism etc. I'll only state this once. Next time posts will just disappear.



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