Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

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NRao
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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2019 06:18

khatvaanga wrote:I am not sure if this was already discussed here, but I was talking to someone about urban infra in India, and he made a comment on why India doesnt look at hub-and-spoke model for all its metros? The biggest challenges in second rung cities as opposed to metros are
1. Education
2. Employment Opportunities
3. Healthcare
4. Amenities

with infra getting better, accessibility to metros from 2nd rung towns / cities are getting better. in other words, the time it takes to get to a metro from a town is reducing and will reduce further. So this would more or less take care of point 3 - healthcare.


Cities are either grown from (very?) old settlements or designed ground up.

Here is a list of cities that were planned. Mind-boggling. But, "planned" has a diff meaning across time. So, an Athens that was planned is not the same as Chandigarh or Decca. So, second rung cities might, over time, become a point on a spoke for a metro, but that is not the same as a hub-and-spoke design, which has from the start an intent. After all, there is a field called urban planning, where people from a variety of fields sit and "design" a city/metro.

tandav wrote:As indicated in videos below I would like to see most of Urban India people mobility system start to be replaced by Human + Battery operated system


Unfortunately, cities/urban areas do not behave that a way. One has to justify a need for an alternate transport system. Need to remember a city is like a ballon, you increase pressure somewhere, it exerts pressure elsewhere, many a time in an unintended way. And with very fierce competition for funds (read: political backing) ideas rarely leave the drawing board.

I have always been very, very wary of and in fact predicted that the disruptive alternatives (like Uber, Lyft, electric scooters, etc) will eventually fail. The reason is simple, these alternative do not take into account all aspects of "transportation".

Tesla is one exception IMVVHO.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 07 Jun 2019 02:59

NRao wrote:
The "West" is fond of huge urban areas and therefore small rural areas. They are well structured in every way (suburban, transportation systems, finance, etc) to support this thinking. Which is reflected in:

the chief technology officer of London’s transportation office, have argued that India should recast Mumbai, India’s financial capital, in the mold of New York or London, primarily by converting its shrinking port into a sleek new business district offering a high quality of life


Translation:
1) Get into debt (housing, business and credit cards)
2) Buy insurance
3) You do not save. we will save for you, but you must pay us for that service

And, since India has an inferior structure to the west, they will impose these structures on India. Check out what Trump said in London: the British health care system must be on the table for a phenomenal trade deal. :). I think the Brits should be thankful that Trump did not ask for the crown itself.
....


That's an interesting angle NRao ji. Is this what the IDFC (the urbanization-touting think-tank in Mumbai that Reihan Salam calls "enormously influential") is pushing for?

It's not that we don't need better planning around urbanization, as rapidly as it is happening in many parts of the country. But we shouldn't be hoodwinked into entering some circular debt-trap (and burning up domestic savings) on the basis of arguments like "your best-of-the-best will leave for the West unless you give them San Jose standards-of-living at home". There are other reasons to R2I, and many NRIs have in fact embraced them.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Jun 2019 03:54

Somewhere in the 1930s (early IIRC), India borrowed the idea of "Planning" from the Soviets. Indian Congress (yes, he Pappu party) implemented "planning" first in agriculture and then in other aspects of their dealings. Thus in an independent India, it was not a surprise that the GoI had "planning" in every gov dept. I think it still exists to this day. Thus the Five Year Plan.

But, in the 1930s, the British, who ruled India, openly laughed at The Congress party. I suspect it had more to do with the fact that Britain and Russia had some amount of enmity. The US, more out of politeness, giggled.

However, around the 1950s the US began to see some truth in planning and actually started encouraging universities to start teaching planning - thus "Urban Planning". The Brits followed right after but were allergic to US leading, thus the Brits called it "City Planning".

At the most granular level, India taught the "West" planning.

So, where is the problem? ........

It's not that we don't need better planning around urbanization, as rapidly as it is happening in many parts of the country


India has failed over the years to execute "planning". India has produced umpteen number of Urban Planners (those of us who left India thrived, we "moved the needle", while our classmates did not fare as well). All around the globe, Urban Planning is a complex mixture that includes politicians, one cannot run around that fact. In the West, politicians are less political as compared to Indian politicians. To execute better in India, Indian politicians need to be far less political and everything will balance out (it will take some time, people have to get used to the new norms).

IMHO, India needs no foreign advice on "planning". After all "planning" has a very large component called "culture". Which foreigner can advise Indians based on that component? Their advice can be based on finance, funds, climate (perhaps), materials, technologies, etc, but not culture.
Last edited by NRao on 07 Jun 2019 04:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 07 Jun 2019 04:13

I don’t know about IDFC and have no idea why they’re termed enormously influential . However urbanization itself is here to stay, and it is simply a question of establishing urban paradigms sites to Indian contexts , particularly in terms of managing crush density populations and avoiding just building urban heat islands. Charles Correa as mentioned earlier, had thoughtful insights on this .

India is between 31% and 50% urbanized now, depending on which measure you use . Manufacturing and services tend to be concentrated industries that aren’t dependent on cultivate land as much as built up infrastructure . With fewer people engaged in agriculture each passing year, the move to an urbanized life will continue . People are voting for that with their feet .

There is some merit in the discussion about creating a financial enclave that serves as a gateway to foreign capital. India was and remains capital deficit . We may have various examples of latent wealth (eg gold ownership) but deep liquidity in banking and investment assets - we don’t have that .

SBI for example has over $1 trillion in assets . Seems like a big number except that the Chinese big four banks each have a few times that number in assets . Cost of capital in India is expensive, and when DMRC wants a big loan on excellent terms, SBI isn’t where they go - they go to Japan . Having an investment focused area like an Indian HK has its purposes at least for some time . The actual HK of course is being now superseded by Shenzhen and Shanghai , but for a long time it served a very useful purpose to China .

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Jun 2019 05:18

We need to be very careful here. "urbanization" has a life of its own - it can accelerate and decelerate. When these accelerations/declarations are within the predicted value (read: part of an AGREED to "plan" - recall the politician?), things work out. Else the proverbial $hit hits the fan. To help understand this phenomenon (I will keep it very simple, there is a whole lot to say):

1) "Urban Planning":

a) It involves very large tracts of land - 30 x 30 miles
b) It is about predictive modeling. We project out up to 25 years (and live to see the results!!)
c) It involves many, many disciplines: economists, sociologists, population, employment, land use, transportation, etc. Each an expert predictive modeler
d) It takes years to come up with a "plan"
e) These guys are the guardians of "public policy". The "plans" are used to formulate the policies.

So, we are not trained to deal with surges in the flow of populations from rural to urban areas. We think in long-range solutions - at a minimum of 5 years segments.

So, who deals with such surges?

Urban Designers and to some extent architects (on the design side) and of course municipalities and politicians - they provide (funds and build out) the infrastructure. These are typically the guys who have to tweak the "urban plan" to mold it to the current or near future needs - thus the one year plan.

2) "Urban Design":

a) Involves one or more city "blocks", but for sure is a subset of an Urban area.
b) Trained in specific areas: malls, residential, commercial, etc. Multiple buildings
c) They are governed by the public policies that were formulated by the planners (above)
d) The round trip - problem def, proposal, acceptance, is very short

3) "Architect":

a) single building
b) architects are governed by the local codes

All these are governed by either a degree in the field and in some cases by associated institutes.

Typically architecture and urban design are related. Anyone can get into urban planning - as long as one is not allergic to statistics (and politics).



That is a very, very short post - there is a lot to say on this topic. There are a few exceptions and possibly they exist in India. Hope it helps.


So, coming back to the post on some guy in London talking about some shipyard location (IF I understand it correctly) is an Urban Design issue, not a planning one. And, it should not involve any new policy formulation.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 30 Jun 2019 16:07

Old article on lopsided metropolitan growth

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/op ... 524246.ece

Over the last month, the world saw a unique spectacle in India’s Hindi heartland as tens of millions of people across India and the world, gathered at Kumbh in Prayagraj. Organising Kumbh is unique feat in urban planning and management. Yet, will this impressive organisational ability be translated into improving the quality of Indian cities?

Today, when heavy rain clogs cities like Patna, who is to be held accountable? The government of Bihar which represents a hundred million people, or a local mayor? The answer to this question should be clear, so that we can stop passing the buck.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby nachiket » 01 Jul 2019 23:30

Local Mayors in Indian cities have no executive powers and are not directly elected, much like state Governors and the President himself. And therein lies the biggest problem. There is no one person to be blamed and held accountable by the people of our cities who have to suffer due to the decrepit infrastructure. In state capitals people may hold the CM responsible but he has to look after the whole state and his re-election prospects aren't tied to one city. The sooner this style of government in cities is changed the better. Till then our cities will continue to remain ill-planned and even worse maintained hell-holes.

The Chinese solved this problem by making sure city Mayors who improved their cities the most got an easier path to the top within the CCP.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 02 Jul 2019 00:55

Yes, it's been mentioned multiple times in this thread - our system doesn't directly incentivize urban development. Name a mayor who became PM ? Or a CM, before Modi ? Most national leaders were long time national politicians (e.g. ABV). There was until recently no record of a state CM elevated to PMship within party. There are cases of Mayors becoming CMs, but not necessarily because of his performance as mayor.

China has a system where its largest cities are separate prefectures and not part of the surrounding state. E.g. Shanghai, Tianjin, Chongqing are not capitals of their local provinces. They are union territory equivalents. Leaders who generate urban development and GDP growth get elevated up the party to central politburo positions. Jiang Zemin and Zhu Rongji were both successive mayors of Shanghai before Deng Xiaoping picked them for national leadership.

Considering we have an urbanization rate of ~35%, every city's imperative will be overridden by the concerns of the rural area around it, so its tax money is going to cross-subsidize the rural area instead of going back to investments in the city. Our cities look much worse than a country with this level of income needs to look, because there's no incentive in running a clean modern city - it can potentially backfire if portrayed as coming at the cost of the villages.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jul 2019 09:16

May 2018 :: Navi Mumbai To Get New Development Plan

About 48 years after work around building Navi Mumbai started, the municipal body of the region is now in the final stage of working about the details of new development plan. The Navi Mumbai Municipal Corporation (NMMC), say media reports, will be ready with the first draft of its new development plan (DP) by October this year. By October 2019, the plan, which would chalk development strategy for Navi Mumbai for the coming 20 years, may be ready for implementation

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 02 Jul 2019 12:36

Image
https://inac2019.in/content/INAC4%20Brochure.pdf
www.inac2019.in
INAC-4 is the fourth National Conference of ISSE
Space Applications Centre (SAC), Ahmedabad.
September 26-27 2019

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby darshan » 15 Jul 2019 22:37

No more lavish weddings and other exorbitant social functions in Delhi as strict rules soon to be applied
https://rightlog.in/2019/07/delhi-weddi ... -rules-01/

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby tandav » 30 Jul 2019 07:48

Yesterday I was at a Urban Planning / Development Plan Review Meeting Chaired by the Municipal Commissioner of Mumbai. The presentations there covered the Development Plans of Mumbai focusing
1) Bombay Port Trust Development
2) Coastal highway
3) Improving Transport Networks

Among other speakers there was one person representing Town of London and how it made its journey to become the financial capital of the world focusing on urban rejuvenation. He made certain important points and I am quoting him verbatim
0) Cities were the drivers of wealth creation, by doubling urban population density without causing congestion has been shown lead to 30% growth, there is NO IDEA that London/UK has that can deliver this much growth and they are doubling down on it.
1) London combined all (around 14) the disparate entities that were in charge of running London into one entity that took a systemic decision to run it focusing on making London a better place to attract foreign capital. So instead of 14 separate offices and 14 separate boards all of it was 1 entity with 1 board and 1 financial system.
2) Mentioned how even though London had 42 railway lines leading into London it was not enough
3) He said the ground beneath london upto depths of 60m+ was full of infrastructure
4) He said Rail provided what he termed as Radial connectivity to city center, However there were more bus journeys than train journeys and typically bus journeys were orbital
5) Even though London has multiple town centers, he was adamant that to attract investment you need a central business district which is considered to be the center of town, which is unequivocally where foreign money lands.
6) He was dismissive of Delhi Metro which he said has crystallized Delhi as a bunch of over grown villages and Mumbai is heading in the same direction, He notes Delhi has no City center and the evidence is that all the Multinationals have setup shop in Gurgaon.
7) He further said that City Center of a Urban Conglomeration must have access to a massive human talent pool within 1 hr commute, none of Indian cities seems to have it. London has due to its tube system
8) Mumbai is suffering from not having a city center, is it BKC, is it South Mumbai, Is it Navi Mumbai. He seems to say that the transport network must create this City Center where we will see the most amount of foreign capital.
9) India is likely to suffer by falling into a low income trap since most of its Cities are not attracting MNCs
10) Cities like Mumbai, Delhi are examples of Lazy Cities where authorities are making poor infrastructure with the knowledge that come what may money and people from Rest of India is going to filter in. However he made a critical point that such laziness will never attract foriegn money.
11) Asked about the difference in the London Town Planning and Curitiba Brazil Town Planing (Jaime Lerner) he made a point that Curitiba type systems (BRTS etc) work well when there is no shortage of Land, However Mumbai like Megapolis must have Metro based urban transit.
12) American style car based Public transport is unviable, Mumbai needs to implement congestion charge
13) He said Mumbai has 5000 buses but what it actually needs is 40000 buses as per norms. The only issue is the unviability of managing this publically
14) Road space in India is 0.22 sqft/ person and in London it is 0.3 sqft / person ( I may be wrong)
15) It appears in cities like Delhi and Mumbai the elite are moving around in Cars and most of the others are shuttling short distances and economic opportunities are limited.

Other Points from the meeting
1) Chinese cities have done far far better in this respect (My own assessment)
2) Miyawaki Forestry
3) Decentralized Low Life Cycle cost STP
4) Roof gardens if on floor garden is not possible

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 30 Jul 2019 09:06

Architecture Class of 1974.

This is our 50th anv. Meeting in Jaipur in Feb.

Conducted an unscientific QA among my classmates. All agreed there is really nothing called planning in India any more.

Sad.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby hnair » 30 Jul 2019 09:53

tandav, love that post! It has so many things that are relevant even for a Tier2 city like mine! May I forward it to others in my circle here, with due credits? If possible, would love to get the name of that gent, so I can see if we can fly him in to knock some sense here!

A few points from your post caught my eye:
3) This was the fundamental problem pointed out by various international experts to DMRC's Sreedharan, when he opted for the metro-on-pillars. The fact that valuable real-estate that can be used by buses, being taken by metro pillars as well as the need for things from disaster/fallout shelters etc were raised. Then there is the years long misery of people who have to go through a huge construction zone! A proposal that got shot down was a BG based metro like the Bay area's BART, instead of the current smallish SG rolling stock, which causes existing BG rail lines to not be used as an integrated grid to city periphery. Dilli grapevine has it that due to his stature, Metro Man got unstinted support from the late Sheila Dixit and his decisions increasingly got autocratic as the deadline for CWGames loomed. Only one line or so got BG treatment for IR compatibility. Net result is some quixotic systems around the country, which cannot be easily integrated nor costs driven down by economies of scale with the IR rolling stocks. That depth of 60+ for London you pointed out is mindboggling! That is what we want in our congested cities. That is one city that has learned its lessons from WW2 raidsa and cannot be easily taken out by mega-booms. No wonder the investors as well as escaping dregs make a beeline.

8 ) The city center concept is a single-window clearance mechanism for investors, pioneered centuries ago by Venice and later by Londoners. NY took it to great heights with Manhattan. The concept of a powerful mayor, who can rise upto national level is missing here. IIRC, UPA had such a promise in its manifesto, but looked like an afterthought than a serious proposal. The current mayor of ours' here is a joke - bugger goes out with a torch daily and finds "old food" in hotels that are old family businesses. Then posts them on his FB. When someone asked him what about a proper solid-waste plant and food waste collection systems like Indore or Surat, he be like "Are you ready to part with your land for this purpose?".... cringeworthy responses. So if you talk about city centers to our mayor, he will fall asleep, because he stayed up late night for catching old raitha off some aunty-uncle establishment. Our mayors are all underwhelming and is happy around FB posts of unofficial garbage heap cleanup etc :x

9) This is a HUGE issue for Indian Tier2s. A lot of issues are caused by clustering of big employers for no reason other than proximity to other people's resources. We bore the brunt of this perception issue when we had Nissan start a Digital Center for R&D etc here.

Once again, thanks for posting this

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 30 Jul 2019 10:58

Personally, I don't think the speaker quoted by Tandav offers a very meaningful commentary. The main issue is that he correlates city infrastructure and foreign portfolio investors. That is a tenuous relationship at best. London serves as a very cherrypicked choice in that regard, and not even a very good one at that.

There are numerous big cities with no CBD or multiple mini CBDs, that have great stature. Tokyo for example is a bigger metropolis than London by any measure - population, GDP or transport infrastructure. And yet it has no single CBD. There are lots of areas that are all major business districts - Marunouchi, Shinjuku, Shibuya, Ikebukuro... Seoul has no single CBD as such, though Gangnam is known in popular culture. Nor does Beijing - it has several major areas like Chaoyang. Shanghai is notable for having the Pudong CBD model - a very deliberate design on their part. Even London's CBD range from the political/administrative/historical CBDs (City of London / City of Westminster) to the economic ones like Canary Wharf and Docklands. London's infrastructure and poltiical CBDs far precede its efforts to build itself as a financial center. The speaker is wrong that Delhi has no CBD - the Rastrapati Bhavan/Rajpath is one, and so is Chanakyapuri from a diplomatic perspective. Mumbai has two notable ones in SoBo and BKC.

However, it is a very valid point that Indian cities are grossly lacking in infrastructure - both visible and what lies beneath. However, that's not to say there's nothing remotely like in London - there's a good reason why Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR's tunnel out of the nodal BKC station is being built 60m deep. Delhi had a choice between building a limited underground mass transit due to far higher cost, or building a far larger network quickly but largely above the ground. It chose the latter. It's not the best decision, but there's no way to argue that an alternative plan could have been done both faster and cheaper.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Rahulsidhu » 30 Jul 2019 12:46

Suraj,

Maybe the difference between London and the Asian cities you mentioned is building permissions? All those cities ample residential and office space due to lots of hi-rises everywhere. London OTOH is mostly marked as heritage areas, and thus CBDs were needed for office space especially.

I agree with the criticism of Delhi. It's virtually impossible to build a hi-rise in delhi due to regulations. As a result, virtually no new office or residential space is being built. The city is being hollowed out at its core, younger people from both within and outside are migrating to Gurgaon or Noida, if they chose to stay in NCR at all.

On Mumbai, one thing that i find remarkable is that there are a lot of new hi-rises and skyscrapers, but nearly all are residential. Where are the tall office towers? Maybe someone knowledgeable can comment.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby tandav » 30 Jul 2019 14:11

Feel free... better that public understands all perspectives... also caveat I have not critically examined all the facets or even evaulated the data... so take it FWIW. I for one do not fully agree to what the gent had to say. Will try to get his name. I may even be guilty of making conclusions from what he mentioned. It is not just his words that I captured but also his body language in terms of his assertions

hnair wrote:tandav, love that post! It has so many things that are relevant even for a Tier2 city like mine! May I forward it to others in my circle here, with due credits? If possible, would love to get the name of that gent, so I can see if we can fly him in to knock some sense here!


A few points from your post caught my eye:
3) This was the fundamental problem pointed out by various international experts to DMRC's Sreedharan, when he opted for the metro-on-pillars. The fact that valuable real-estate that can be used by buses, being taken by metro pillars as well as the need for things from disaster/fallout shelters etc were raised. Then there is the years long misery of people who have to go through a huge construction zone! A proposal that got shot down was a BG based metro like the Bay area's BART, instead of the current smallish SG rolling stock, which causes existing BG rail lines to not be used as an integrated grid to city periphery. Dilli grapevine has it that due to his stature, Metro Man got unstinted support from the late Sheila Dixit and his decisions increasingly got autocratic as the deadline for CWGames loomed. Only one line or so got BG treatment for IR compatibility. Net result is some quixotic systems around the country, which cannot be easily integrated nor costs driven down by economies of scale with the IR rolling stocks. That depth of 60+ for London you pointed out is mindboggling! That is what we want in our congested cities. That is one city that has learned its lessons from WW2 raidsa and cannot be easily taken out by mega-booms. No wonder the investors as well as escaping dregs make a beeline.

8 ) The city center concept is a single-window clearance mechanism for investors, pioneered centuries ago by Venice and later by Londoners. NY took it to great heights with Manhattan. The concept of a powerful mayor, who can rise upto national level is missing here. IIRC, UPA had such a promise in its manifesto, but looked like an afterthought than a serious proposal. The current mayor of ours' here is a joke - bugger goes out with a torch daily and finds "old food" in hotels that are old family businesses. Then posts them on his FB. When someone asked him what about a proper solid-waste plant and food waste collection systems like Indore or Surat, he be like "Are you ready to part with your land for this purpose?".... cringeworthy responses. So if you talk about city centers to our mayor, he will fall asleep, because he stayed up late night for catching old raitha off some aunty-uncle establishment. Our mayors are all underwhelming and is happy around FB posts of unofficial garbage heap cleanup etc :x

9) This is a HUGE issue for Indian Tier2s. A lot of issues are caused by clustering of big employers for no reason other than proximity to other people's resources. We bore the brunt of this perception issue when we had Nissan start a Digital Center for R&D etc here.

Once again, thanks for posting this

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby vera_k » 30 Jul 2019 19:34

Metro on pillars need not be a permanent state of affairs. If the metro system is successful, a future generation 50 years hence can knock down the pillars and put the same metro lines underground.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 30 Jul 2019 19:36

Rahulsidhu wrote:Suraj,

Maybe the difference between London and the Asian cities you mentioned is building permissions? All those cities ample residential and office space due to lots of hi-rises everywhere. London OTOH is mostly marked as heritage areas, and thus CBDs were needed for office space especially.

I agree with the criticism of Delhi. It's virtually impossible to build a hi-rise in delhi due to regulations. As a result, virtually no new office or residential space is being built. The city is being hollowed out at its core, younger people from both within and outside are migrating to Gurgaon or Noida, if they chose to stay in NCR at all.

On Mumbai, one thing that i find remarkable is that there are a lot of new hi-rises and skyscrapers, but nearly all are residential. Where are the tall office towers? Maybe someone knowledgeable can comment.

London was vastly more built up and had far more infrastructure than any Asian city until the mid 20th century . I wouldn’t say Tokyo has a lot of high rises - it doesn’t have anything like Manhattan or Pudong unless one counts a much smaller cluster in Roppongi or someplace .

London built Canary Wharf for reasons not far from why BMC built the Bandra Kurla Complex - they needed modern office space . As such, there’s a similarity .

Where Indian cities are certainly lacking is long term planning and development . They tend to develop organically however they impetus leads . In comparison, all the top 4-6 Chinese cities (Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, Chongqing at least) are prefectural level cites , ie they are centrally controlled UTs and not capitals of states . Thus they don’t cross subsidize the state .

Some cities build modern glass and steel office space for specific reasons but that doesn’t necessarily mean that desire is what drove infrastructure development . Paris has the La Defense area like this, but was vastly built out well before that .

The point I’m making is that attracting foreign hot money investors is not a credible correlating factor associated with urban infra development . Rather, it’s entirely a matter of planning and administration enabling cities to build infrastructure. And there’s more to infrastructure than office stock - the city with the most office space in India is not Delhi or Mumbai but Bangalore , which often competed with Shanghai in rate of office space addition . However aggregate infrastructure in Bangalore is poor .

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 01 Aug 2019 12:47

One of the many incredible things I like about Tokyo is the idea of a water conservation forest in the outskirts of the megapolis. It feeds the Tama river gradually after rains.

https://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/e ... enrin.html

https://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/e ... glish.html

https://www.tssk.jp/eng/service/forest/

Really sustainable water supply for the megapolis.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 01 Aug 2019 12:56

Rahulsidhu wrote:Suraj,

Maybe the difference between London and the Asian cities you mentioned is building permissions? All those cities ample residential and office space due to lots of hi-rises everywhere. London OTOH is mostly marked as heritage areas, and thus CBDs were needed for office space especially.

I agree with the criticism of Delhi. It's virtually impossible to build a hi-rise in delhi due to regulations. As a result, virtually no new office or residential space is being built. The city is being hollowed out at its core, younger people from both within and outside are migrating to Gurgaon or Noida, if they chose to stay in NCR at all.

On Mumbai, one thing that i find remarkable is that there are a lot of new hi-rises and skyscrapers, but nearly all are residential. Where are the tall office towers? Maybe someone knowledgeable can comment.



Requirement may be? You need demand for such number of office spaces. Last I check, 50% of Shanghai Tower was vacant. As Suraj says in above post, Bangalore sees max office space induction but due to poor planning, we don't have such glass facade high rises concentrated in one area.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 01 Aug 2019 13:00

we don't have such glass facade high rises concentrated in one area.


And good thing that! When these high rises suck up people in the morning and let go of them in the evening, its nightmare on the roads :lol:

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 01 Aug 2019 18:27

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... s-5278532/

Traffic in BKC is set to get worse soon with barricades for several projects being erected. The construction of the underground Metro 3 corridor has already begun and has now moved to the central median at the Income Tax office junction. The MMRDA has also begun placing barricades for the elevated Metro 2B corridor. Terminals for the Bullet train and the Hyperloop are also to be constructed in the BKC. Meanwhile, the construction of the Kalanagar flyover is also set to begin at the same stretch. Keeping this in mind, the MMRDA has suggested some alternatives to deal with the traffic menace.
8)

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby chaitanya » 01 Aug 2019 20:07

A Nandy wrote:One of the many incredible things I like about Tokyo is the idea of a water conservation forest in the outskirts of the megapolis. It feeds the Tama river gradually after rains.

https://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/e ... enrin.html

https://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/e ... glish.html

https://www.tssk.jp/eng/service/forest/

Really sustainable water supply for the megapolis.


New York City has a similar setup: https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/25599.html

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby tandav » 05 Aug 2019 18:25

Make all cities greater than 1Crore population into UT with legislatures. Precedent exists

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Prasad » 05 Aug 2019 20:00

Why would states who have ploughed in money and effort at the cost of other parts of their state agree to this? Unless the centre gives them a quid pro quo.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Aug 2019 23:18

tandav wrote:Make all cities greater than 1Crore population into UT with legislatures. Precedent exists

That's actually quite a reasonable proposition in general. There has to be a point beyond which a city's administrative structure has to take on a different form in order to manage its growing affairs more efficiently.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 07 Aug 2019 11:50

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 565909.cms

First step: Driverless cars arrive in New York City

The cars will begin shuttling people on Wednesday around a loop that is just more than 1 mile at the yard, a 300-acre, privately operated manufacturing and technology hub. They will run seven days a week to meet passengers going to and from a recently opened ferry landing. There is no charge for a ride and anyone can hop in.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Aug 2019 12:01

A Nandy wrote:
we don't have such glass facade high rises concentrated in one area.


And good thing that! When these high rises suck up people in the morning and let go of them in the evening, its nightmare on the roads :lol:



There are solutions. Perhaps the best one is staggered working hours. The other, a more recent one, is work from home, stagger that too if employers do not like work from home. Essentially expand "peak hours" to the max. One -ve is that services have to expand too.

BTW, the Willis Tower (ex Sears Tower) in Chicago, has had staggered working hours for decades.

Manage land use better (easier said than done granted).

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 07 Aug 2019 12:38

Yes, actually I always wondered if it's possible to track car density using cameras! Then push back on cars entering the road from various junctions, to service roads, to right back to the apartment gate. Kind of like "back pressure" in the TCP protocol :D
And heavy penalties to the apartment for allowing cars out without permission!

Would free up the road for dedicated bus routes, and buses would actually arrive on time. Express bus routes could skip stops and maintain speed that way - also let metro work proceed fast. Half the commotion on the road is due to buses swaying in and out of stops. This would actually encourage public transport hugely and car pooling - maybe lead to a mad rush at 5:00 AM with SUVs to get on the road before the 'valves' close :mrgreen:

But stop the concrete trailers and water lorries between 7:00 AM to 12:00 AM. Also, why don't they build pipes for the water instead of the trucks and tractors rumbling down the road watering the road excellently with their leaks :lol:


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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Aug 2019 00:33

Mod Note: this thread is NOT a place to dump any random idea that might be relevant to something in India.

Three-fourth of India’s GDP to come from urban population if these reforms are made
The urban population will be the driver of the Indian economy, contributing about three-fourth of the GDP by 2030, according to a recent report. While the urban population contributes about 63% to Indian GDP at present, the same is expected to rise to 75%, a joint report by CBRE and CREDAI said on Tuesday. However, to achieve the same, massive reforms are required in terms of ramping up the infrastructural needs of the cities. “Most Indian cities lag on key quality of life parameters and are plagued by challenges such as poverty, lack of affordable housing, traffic congestion, overcrowding, environmental degradation and air pollution,” said the report, adding that if the stress on the physical and civic infrastructure systems of the cities is eased, the urban population will be able to contribute the most to the GDP.

The Narendra Modi-led government has posed a $5 trillion economy dream by 2024 and the country is expected to witness a strong growth led by factors such as a robust workforce and a changing policy scenario. By 2030, the economy is expected to reach $9 trillion with a growth rate of 9% per annum. However, a much stronger policy reform push is needed to achieve the goal. “In case the country’s growth trends are similar to the current scenario/current pace of policy reforms, the GDP is expected to reach USD 6.5 trillion by 2030. However, if the current reforms have a reversal effect, India’s GDP is expected to reach only about USD 4.3 trillion by 2030,” said the report.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Kashi » 16 Aug 2019 12:04

Highway to heaven

A unique project in Varanasi is pushing for modern development in the heartland of Indian antiquity. It may well become a model for historic precincts in the country as India develops economically.

Image

Image
An aerial view of the path being built from the riverfront to the Kashi Vishwanath temple. The three domes on the left are of the Gyanvapi mosque, which is next to the temple.

Image
This view shows the congested area before the project was taken up.

Image
A 3D model of Kashi Vishwanath temple corridor

Image
Several old temples in Varanasi were rediscovered within the demolished houses.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 12 Sep 2019 22:55

Electric buses beginning to come online :D

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/t ... CqGVJ.html
Three firms shortlisted for e-buses, charging depots on track
The transport department has also completed civil work in Delhi’s first two electric bus depots at Rohini Sector 37 and Mundela Kalan, Delhi government said.



https://auto.ndtv.com/news/best-deploys ... ai-2098496
BEST Deploys 10 Olectra-BYD eBuzz K7 Electric Buses In Mumbai


https://www.deccanherald.com/state/elec ... 59638.html
Electric bus plant likely to come up in Mangaluru

https://www.autocarpro.in/news-national ... lant-44043
Eberspaecher to make electric AC systems for hybrid and electric buses in expanded Bangalore plant


https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... t-5941136/
Chennai gets first electric bus; more than 500 to be rolled out across Tamil Nadu
The electric bus can clock a distance of 200 km every day, with batteries expected to be replaced by a fresh set every 40 km through swapping technology.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 014172.cms
KOLKATA: With 40 electric buses on the road and another 190 buses in the
pipeline the city roads will have adequate environment friendly electric buses
to provide comfortable transport system to the city dwellers. West
Bengal transport minister Suvendu Adhikary said in the state assembly on
Friday that the electric bus model was so successful that the two neighbouring
states – Bihar, Tripura and Assam had decided to replicate the model


https://mercomindia.com/electric-buses- ... an-cities/
In order to promote clean mobility in public transportation, the Department of Heavy Industry (DHI) under the Ministry of Heavy Industry and Public Enterprises, has granted the approval for 5,595 electric buses to be deployed in 64 cities under the Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Hybrid and Electric Vehicles (FAME-II) program.

Whats this approval granting business here too :roll:

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Prasad » 13 Sep 2019 10:56

They're buying BYD buses. Whats there to cheer about! These guys will flood our market given govts all over planning to go electric.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby arshyam » 13 Sep 2019 11:03

Chennai has one AL electric bus running on a trial basis since last month. It runs on route A1 (Central-Thiruvanmiyur) if anyone wants to try it out. I will attempt when I go there next time.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Vips » 15 Sep 2019 06:26

Government set to digitally map India.

Nearly two centuries after British surveyors Colonel Sir George Everest and his predecessor William Lambton first scientifically measured the length and breadth of the country, the Survey of India (SOI) is all set to digitally map the country using latest technologies.

The project is being undertaken by the Survey of India, with support from Department of Science and Technology (DST) for over a period of two years. The work has already begun in three states -- Maharashtra, Karnataka and Haryana.

“The idea is to make digital maps available for everyone. The mapping would be drone-based, but this would be validated by ground-based information," said Ashutosh Sharma, secretary, Department of Science and Technology, highlighting how the wide availability of satellite data has rendered the erstwhile policies of restricting map information to citizens obsolete.

The humungous exercise would witness the Survey of India, one of India’s oldest scientific departments set up in 1767, using latest technologies to map India digitally. It would be drone-based, but data would be validated by ground based information and high-resolution cameras.

SOI has over 2500 Ground Control Points uniformly distributed throughout the country whose standardized co-ordinates are known. But the recent mapping exercise would be supported by a network of Continuously Operated Reference Stations network (CORS) which is being set up in India for the first time to give instant online 3-D positioning with accuracy of a few centimeters.

Unlike the Global Positing System (GPS), which is a satellite-based navigation system or the Google maps, these digital maps would be far more accurate and precise.

“They will be far more superior with accuracy of ten cms. But, there will be adequate consideration that it does not jeopardize national security. Balance will be maintained between development and security needs," he said highlighting the growing demand of digital topographical data various applications.

SOI has already created three Digital Centres to generate Digital Topographical Data base of the entire country for creation of geographic information system. So far, it maintains topographic maps in 1:50, 00,000 and partially in 1:25, 00,000 and 1:10,00,000 scales, but now the target is to generate digital maps on 1:500 scale for the entire country.

The first-ever maps involved surveyors and workers travelling in tough terrains and forests, risking their lives as they created the Great Trigonometrical Survey in 1870, using an array of optical instruments including Theodilites, zenith sector to measure curvature of earth and collect field data. Sir George Everest, the Surveyor of India that time had mapped the longest arc of the meridian from the southernmost point of India north to Nepal covering distance of about 2,400 kilometres over three decades. The world’s highest peak, Mount Everest was named after him.

The department is also mapping the entire flood plains of the river Ganga, up to 25 km on each side with sufficient accuracy, which will not only give information about the sources of discharge, erosion, elevation on both sides, but help prepare for floods in future.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 19 Sep 2019 00:02

https://hyperloop-one.com/virgin-hyperl ... its-region

“The Pune-Mumbai Hyperloop Project is well on its way to becoming the first of its kind transit option, creating new economic opportunities for hundreds of millions of Maharashtra residents. But that’s just the beginning,” said Harj Dhaliwal, Managing Director of India and the Middle East for Virgin Hyperloop One. “We envision a future in which Maharashtra becomes a global supply hub to support hyperloop projects around the world with manufacturing, design, and engineering support services –– making it not just hyperloop’s first home, but a global leader for the first new mode of mass transportation in over 100 years.”

Last month, in a landmark announcement for building the Pune-Mumbai hyperloop transportation system, the Government of Maharashtra deemed hyperloop a public infrastructure project, recognizing hyperloop technology alongside other more traditional forms of mass transit and setting it up to be the first hyperloop project in the world.

The MahaIDEA Committee also earlier approved the Virgin Hyperloop One-DP World (VHO-DPW) Consortium as the Original Project Proponent (OPP) for the Pune-Mumbai Hyperloop Project. There are approximately 75 million passenger journeys between Mumbai and Pune annually – expected to skyrocket to 130 million by 2026. Virgin Hyperloop One’s system can meet this growing demand by supporting as many as 200 million passengers annually, linking central Pune and Mumbai in less than 30 minutes, as opposed to the current 3.5+ hours. This ultra-high speed linkage not only opens up new economic and social opportunities but also offers a sustainable form of mass transportation with zero direct emissions.

The Government of Maharashtra is finalizing the hyperloop infrastructure project Request For Proposal (RFP) and is expected to invite bids for the RFP under the MahaIDEA Act for infrastructure projects. The VHO-DPW proposal includes USD $500 million of private equity funding for Phase 1 of the project. Phase 2 will be funded via debt and equity to be mobilized by the private sector ensuring that public money is not re-allocated from other infrastructure projects.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 20 Sep 2019 02:55

They're buying BYD buses. Whats there to cheer about! These guys will flood our market given govts all over planning to go electric.


Well hopefully an Indian player will now step into the game given the market size:
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/sp ... 82273.ece#

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 03 Nov 2019 15:07

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/germany-a ... r-in-india

Of the €1 billion investment, a major share of €200 million will be channelled by Germany into reforming the bus transport sector in the southern State of Tamil Nadu. She also pushed for India to supplant diesel-run buses with electric buses.

The push from Chancellor Merkel for India to fasten the adoption of electric buses came in the context of the ongoing pollution crisis in the national capital of Delhi, where the Supreme Court-mandated EPCA has declared the imposition of a national health emergency as pollution levels have peaked beyond 'severe plus' category.

Ms. Merkel also said that Germany would also like to work with India on various segments including healthcare, agriculture and artificial intelligence.

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Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Nov 2019 04:34

A Nandy wrote:https://hyperloop-one.com/virgin-hyperloop-one-and-kpmg-estimate-18-million-new-jobs-and-36-billion-socioeconomic-benefits-region

“The Pune-Mumbai Hyperloop Project is well on its way to becoming the first of its kind transit option, creating new economic opportunities for hundreds of millions of Maharashtra residents. But that’s just the beginning,” said Harj Dhaliwal, Managing Director of India and the Middle East for Virgin Hyperloop One. “We envision a future in which Maharashtra becomes a global supply hub to support hyperloop projects around the world with manufacturing, design, and engineering support services –– making it not just hyperloop’s first home, but a global leader for the first new mode of mass transportation in over 100 years.”

Last month, in a landmark announcement for building the Pune-Mumbai hyperloop transportation system, the Government of Maharashtra deemed hyperloop a public infrastructure project, recognizing hyperloop technology alongside other more traditional forms of mass transit and setting it up to be the first hyperloop project in the world.

The MahaIDEA Committee also earlier approved the Virgin Hyperloop One-DP World (VHO-DPW) Consortium as the Original Project Proponent (OPP) for the Pune-Mumbai Hyperloop Project. There are approximately 75 million passenger journeys between Mumbai and Pune annually – expected to skyrocket to 130 million by 2026. Virgin Hyperloop One’s system can meet this growing demand by supporting as many as 200 million passengers annually, linking central Pune and Mumbai in less than 30 minutes, as opposed to the current 3.5+ hours. This ultra-high speed linkage not only opens up new economic and social opportunities but also offers a sustainable form of mass transportation with zero direct emissions.

The Government of Maharashtra is finalizing the hyperloop infrastructure project Request For Proposal (RFP) and is expected to invite bids for the RFP under the MahaIDEA Act for infrastructure projects. The VHO-DPW proposal includes USD $500 million of private equity funding for Phase 1 of the project. Phase 2 will be funded via debt and equity to be mobilized by the private sector ensuring that public money is not re-allocated from other infrastructure projects.


Sometimes I'm amazed at how our babus + netas can facilitate outlandish proposals like Hyperloop, but hold up straightforward projects for years in chai biskoots.


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