Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

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Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 05 Oct 2007 23:34

Rahul Mehta wrote:It is best that this Rs 2400cr is spent on railways than in some 20m depp canal.


No doubt another line to Bihar.

A double line from Chennai to Tuticorin is already planned. But bulk goods will always be cheaper by sea.

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.

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Postby Sanjay M » 06 Oct 2007 01:05

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Rahul Mehta wrote:It is best that this Rs 2400cr is spent on railways than in some 20m depp canal.


No doubt another line to Bihar.

A double line from Chennai to Tuticorin is already planned. But bulk goods will always be cheaper by sea.


Nonsense, you'd have to concentrate the goods at a port, load them on a ships, then ship them, and then unload them at another port, and then re-distribute again by truck and rail.

Why do that when it's easier just to distribute all the way by truck and rail?
This is more about a gameplan to destroy heritage sites than to provide any economic benefit.

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.


Seriously, I think you ought to quit Bharat Rakshak and join Dravida Rakshak.

In my vocabulary, "native" means Indian, and there's no room for parochialism, whether it's the Kashmiri, Khalistani, Mizo, or Dravidianist variety.

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.


Seriously, I think those who have little knowledge of transport economics should stop pretending their unquestionable expertise as solution-providers.

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Postby gauravs » 06 Oct 2007 01:18

Inland navigation has and always be cheaper and much more efficient than onland transport.

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Postby gauravs » 06 Oct 2007 01:19

Inland navigation has and always be cheaper and much more efficient than onland transport.

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Postby Sanjay M » 06 Oct 2007 02:10

The reality is that infrastructural development of the interior is undercut and undermined if you try and bypass it with shipping.

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Oct 2007 06:30

gauravs wrote:Inland navigation has and always be cheaper and much more efficient than onland transport.


Completely agree. No amount of Rhetoric and name calling will change this.

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Postby SwamyG » 06 Oct 2007 06:46

Sanjay M wrote:The reality is that infrastructural development of the interior is undercut and undermined if you try and bypass it with shipping.


Just being argumentative, one could substitute 'shipping' with 'airways'.

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Postby gauravs » 06 Oct 2007 07:47

Just b/c something takes away from interior development does not automatically make it bad for overall development of the country.

This same argument was made during the interstate development in the US " interstates will take away from rural US" Blaahhhblahhhhh....

The village as it exists in India is no longer feasible, I'd rather that cities develop and the most basic rural areas devoted to farming remain. It's more efficient and probably will lead to eradication of most Indian social ills (just my opinion).

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Postby Bade » 06 Oct 2007 08:27

I am all for infrastructure development, yet cannot ignore regional politics as a reason for this increased meddling on TR Baaalu's part. The spur to Cochin from the N-S expressway has not been awarded yet I think. In any case it was kept aside as the last to be tendered even when land has been acquired on both sides of the NH47 for more than two years now. The interesting thing about TN politics is it always is a one-way give me affair from their perspective. This is what rubs others the wrong way. :evil: TN leaders have shown no remorse in choking all exit points out of Kerala but cry wolf when they get slapped even the slightest bit. :lol:

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Oct 2007 09:52

Bade wrote:I am all for infrastructure development, yet cannot ignore regional politics as a reason for this increased meddling on TR Baaalu's part. The spur to Cochin from the N-S expressway has not been awarded yet I think. In any case it was kept aside as the last to be tendered even when land has been acquired on both sides of the NH47 for more than two years now. The interesting thing about TN politics is it always is a one-way give me affair from their perspective. This is what rubs others the wrong way. :evil: TN leaders have shown no remorse in choking all exit points out of Kerala but cry wolf when they get slapped even the slightest bit. :lol:


IMH experience Kerala leaders are very good at developing choke points themselves only. :lol: :lol:

But this is true. I think the Mulla Periyar is an extremely unfair situation. I also think the recent Salem Railway Division issue is grossly political.

TN politics has become reduced to extremely competitive, life or death matter. Literally in many cases as recent incidents show. This has reduced the maneuvering room that is available to negotiate with other states.

The people enjoy this tamasha. They Like to keep the leaders guessing constantly. They encourage this sort of emotional brinkmanship.

IMHO these leaders are very good with tactics, very poor with strategy.

For instance the Cauvery project to generate 2000 mw of power for Karnataka & TN has been hanging fire for 25 years because of a failure to compromise. Also the Nilambur road to Chamaraj nagar rail project has been stalled for years now. The Munnar Kodai road is in ruins. A few years back I would have brought up Veerappan, who no doubt survived due to TN politicians.

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Postby Bade » 06 Oct 2007 20:29

IMH experience Kerala leaders are very good at developing choke points themselves only.


You are right that Kerala leaders are such nincompoops that they can't even figure out how to fill their personal coffers with such pork-barrel initiatives :( maybe with the exception of KK. Even then by Indian standards the siphoning off is of such small value and probably deliberately so to remain under the radars. Even a few lakhs of corruption money hits the headlines there and create political instability. The leaders there need to think big in terms of scams that can make a few thousand crores before we see development there. :lol:

Hypothetically, even if the Kerala expressway were built by now there would still be no connectivity to the N-S corridor or even the quadrilateral. There are good reasons for it too. BMW ditching Kochi for Chennai was largely due to lack of connectivity to the rest of the country.

:evil:

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Postby Sanjay M » 06 Oct 2007 22:27

SwamyG wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:The reality is that infrastructural development of the interior is undercut and undermined if you try and bypass it with shipping.


Just being argumentative, one could substitute 'shipping' with 'airways'.


There is no way airfreight is even remotely competitive with bulk surface transport, except for specialized niches like same-day/overnight delivery over vast distances.

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Postby Sanjay M » 08 Oct 2007 10:50

Oh, look -- more saffron-robed fanatics protesting against commercial progress:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... 4420071006

Paging Dr Enqyoob, paging Dr Enqyoob...

We need to immediately convert this issue into a debate on whether the river was created by Monkeys/God/Buddha vs whether it's naturally-formed river. Because as we all know, if the river is natural, then there is a full license to destroy it.

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Postby SSridhar » 15 Oct 2007 09:14

Increasing scepticism being expressed on the economic viability of SSCP
[quote]Even as environment, security and political concerns continue to plague Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project, the shipping industry too seems to be divided on the economic benefits of the project.

While coastal shipping operators are upbeat on the prospects that the project would open up for them, large shipping lines operating ocean services see the project not addressing their concerns. Shipping industry representatives largely agree that the [b]proposed draught of 10 metres is insufficient for the movement of bigger vessels. “The draught should be a minimum of 12 metres to support a 50,000 DWT vessel,â€

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Postby Aditya_V » 15 Oct 2007 09:36

Theo_Fidel wrote:

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.


Its funny how Kanimozhi and everybody else who supports the the project in TN immediately lump anyone critizing the project as non native, well I am a native of TN and seriously oppose the project on religous, economic, eviormental and security grounds. The aim of this project seems to destroy the ram sethu.

Otherwise I don't see why a project which if one takes a step back and looks at economic aspect will hardly make any sense and will not break even in 70 years, will have tremendrous enviormental consequences and destroy livelyhoods of fishermen, and will not have too much economic benefits for the 6 districts is being supported so much.

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Postby Virupaksha » 15 Oct 2007 10:14

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.


and why do you forget that you are doing it with the same non-native money? :evil:

and then its not about money? The same 2000 crore blackhole of setusamudram, could probably be used for much much more benefit elsewhere. and we dont have a say?

You could be doing things which ecologically unsound for kerala, Shouldnt they protest against this in that case?

You could be destroying a cultural heritage of the whole of India? Shouldnt we protest against that?

as long as comments like the above are made by people from any single part of the country, it is not good.
:(

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Postby SSridhar » 15 Oct 2007 11:10

Aditya_v,
Its funny how Kanimozhi and everybody else who supports the the project in TN immediately lump anyone critizing the project as non native


Happened to see an interview in a TV channel a couple of weeks back. The guy who was being interviewed holds some position in the Fishermen union. Almost 300,000 fishermen there opposed the project totally, according to him. Per Kanimozhi and other similar 'Thanmana Thamizhina Thalaivargal' (Leaders of the Tamilians with Self-respect as they call themselves), these fisher folk are non-native barbarians who came through the Khyber pass ?

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 15 Oct 2007 22:54

and why do you forget that you are doing it with the same non-native money? :evil:


Not true. I've posted the financial break down earlier.

and then its not about money? The same 2000 crore blackhole of setusamudram, could probably be used for much much more benefit elsewhere. and we dont have a say?


No. That is why we have parliament. Trust me quid pro quo's have been paid for this project. If you don't like it vote your MP out.

You could be doing things which ecologically unsound for kerala, Shouldnt they protest against this in that case?


Prove it. Unsubstantiated statements do not help. Wild accusations/protests are not proof.

You could be destroying a cultural heritage of the whole of India? Shouldnt we protest against that?


Do it on your time and on your dime. If you read the Ramayan every pond to hillock to river to natural feature in India has been associated with some heritage value. Why pick on this one alone? Or are you afraid to know exactly which bias is driving this opposition.

as long as comments like the above are made by people from any single part of the country, it is not good.
:(


There has to be a line drawn on what one set of people can tell another set what to do. Protest all you want. Comment all you want. But the line is drawn when you decide what is good for someone who lives there.

Way too close to a colonial mindset.

Aditya_v,
Its funny how Kanimozhi and everybody else who supports the the project in TN immediately lump anyone critizing the project as non native


Happened to see an interview in a TV channel a couple of weeks back. The guy who was being interviewed holds some position in the Fishermen union. Almost 300,000 fishermen there opposed the project totally, according to him. Per Kanimozhi and other similar 'Thanmana Thamizhina Thalaivargal' (Leaders of the Tamilians with Self-respect as they call themselves), these fisher folk are non-native barbarians who came through the Khyber pass ?


The fishermens opposition has always been the most organized serious opposition. Almost all compromise talks have involved them. Numerous public hearing were held and the alignment was pushed out that far to accommodate them.

This of course resulted in the cutting of the Sethu. What now.

Any inboard alignment sparing the Sethu will cause even more destruction of their fishing grounds. This is why all these alignments are a non starter for the natives.

Of course this is always blithely demanded by the non-natives.

I would also point out that the fishermens union is heavily CPI organized. Earlier they were against the project when the BJP was on board. Recently they have been quiet as the CPI is not so opposed.

It was funny on this side of the fence as well till the bills for delay started showing up. :cry:
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 15 Oct 2007 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

Theo_Fidel

Postby Theo_Fidel » 15 Oct 2007 23:36

[quote]While coastal shipping operators are upbeat on the prospects that the project would open up for them, large shipping lines operating ocean services see the project not addressing their concerns. Shipping industry representatives largely agree that the [b]proposed draught of 10 metres is insufficient for the movement of bigger vessels. “The draught should be a minimum of 12 metres to support a 50,000 DWT vessel,â€

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Postby harbans » 16 Oct 2007 00:50

My cousin works in the DCI. Dredging corporation of India. He's been dredging Ram Sethu lamost 2 years. I asked him hows the dredging doing? He says they dredging 5.5 m and keep dredging the same. The silt just keeps coming in. Now they've hired external dredgers, quite expensive. Looks like there are some pretty gung ho and unexplicable aspects on project feasibility in this case.

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Postby Sanjay M » 23 Mar 2008 23:11

India's attempts to hold the Commonwealth Games appear to be bogged down:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 15,00.html

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Postby abhishek » 23 Mar 2008 23:36

Seriously the non natives need to stop telling TN what is good for us.


Theo-fiedel,
You should stick to your speciality, bashing the new Bangalore Airport. That way you can preserve your pseudo-sanity.

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Postby Rampy » 06 Apr 2008 19:16

Hearing for Setusamudram is on April 15. Hope this project is stopped.

nice presentation - http://www.slideshare.net/kalyan97/rama-setu-ppt/

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Postby vsudhir » 10 Apr 2008 19:01

India has assets to host 2020 Olympics: Rogge

BEIJING: India's plans to bid for the 2020 Olympics on Thursday got a shot in arm with International Olympic Committee President Jacques Rogge saying the country has "many assets" to host the mega event.

"You definitely have many assets but as you know, winning the big prize in an Olympic candidature is never easy," Rogge said here, when asked about his views on India hosting the 2020 Olympics.

Rogge said New Delhi was a strong candidate to host the Games.

"I have been privy to discussions with leaders of your national Olympic committee. Yes, This is the dream of Suresh Kalmadi and Randhir Singh. In all earnest, we are always glad when there is a candidature coming from a credible, strong city," he said.

India is lobbying hard among top officials of the IOC and National Olympic Committees from across the globe to drum up support for its bid for the 2020 Games.


Please, not Delhi again..... How 'bout some other city gets a chance at war-footing infra development, for a change? Say, like hyderabad? Or Pune? or Ahmedabad? Or even banglore?

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Postby viveks » 10 Apr 2008 22:41

vsudhir wrote:India has assets to host 2020 Olympics: Rogge

BEIJING: India's plans to bid for the 2020 Olympics on Thursday got a shot in arm with International Olympic Committee President Jacques Rogge saying the country has "many assets" to host the mega event.

"You definitely have many assets but as you know, winning the big prize in an Olympic candidature is never easy," Rogge said here, when asked about his views on India hosting the 2020 Olympics.

Rogge said New Delhi was a strong candidate to host the Games.

"I have been privy to discussions with leaders of your national Olympic committee. Yes, This is the dream of Suresh Kalmadi and Randhir Singh. In all earnest, we are always glad when there is a candidature coming from a credible, strong city," he said.

India is lobbying hard among top officials of the IOC and National Olympic Committees from across the globe to drum up support for its bid for the 2020 Games.


Please, not Delhi again..... How 'bout some other city gets a chance at war-footing infra development, for a change? Say, like hyderabad? Or Pune? or Ahmedabad? Or even banglore?


How about srinager in Jammu & kashmir...hain?

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Postby skganji » 10 Apr 2008 22:53

I think we should not worry about which city is going to host the olympics as long as it is some where in India.

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Postby vsudhir » 10 Apr 2008 22:55

How about srinager in Jammu & kashmir...hain?


Huh? What're you talking about? Unless you were merely attemopting to be humorous or tongue in cheek or sarcastic or something like that, why Srinagar, may I ask??

The terror threat apart, the bakis will sieze the opportunity to wail about the kore issue of kashmir etc.

And not just that, thx to article 370, the vast majority of common indians will not reap any commercial and economic benefit out of the Olympics. JMTPs and all that.

/Have a nice day.

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Postby MN Kumar » 11 Apr 2008 10:07

I beg to differ about our attmept to host the Olympics. Let be realistic first and be at a competitive level in participating and winning medals. Hosting is one thing and winning a medal is an altogether different thing for us. Later should be the prority.

Lets cleanup our act first, remove all the politicians hanging on to the Sports Assosiations. Make them efficient.

Imagine hosting the Olympics and not winning a single gold medal would be slap on the face and big insult. China has climbed up the ladder to host by being competitive.

Sorry for my rant but this is what reality is.


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Re:

Postby Victor » 15 Mar 2009 04:46

MN Kumar wrote: Imagine hosting the Olympics and not winning a single gold medal would be slap on the face and big insult.

Several sports lightweights have hosted the Games so its no big deal. Anyway, by then we will be winning a good share of golds. Its bound to happen. We need to drop the negative mindset and move ahead quickly.

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby putnanja » 18 Mar 2009 02:05

Highways and ports fall victim to turf wars

Over the last five years, Mr T. R. Baalu, the Union Minister of Shipping, Road Transport and Highways and his team could have done much more. But they will probably say that they spent most of their time to sort out several issues with the Planning Commission. They were, after all, getting their approvals from the Committee on Infrastructure (CoI) for the contract documents which alone could be used for bidding out projects — in both ports and highways.
...

In the UPA regime, the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI) awarded contracts for upgrading less than 10,000 km of National Highways.

However, the target for just one year, 2007-08, had been 7,000 km. For 2008-09, it was about 10,600 km. This shows the massive shortfall. Indeed, in 2008-09, they managed only 638 km.
...

So what really plagued the ambitious National Highways Development Programme (NHDP)? Quite simply, as a judgment of the Delhi High Court put it, frequent interference in NHAI’s affairs by the Ministry, and interference by the CoI in the Ministry. In short, the UPA regime weakened the NHAI as an institution.
...

During the last five years, at any given point, the Government spent majority of its time building consensus on either one of the documents.
...
As for mega projects in the shipping sector, the Government had announced plans to set up large shipyards (one each in the East and West cost) and a mega dredging alliance. As Mr T. R. Baalu signs off, they will stay just that — plans.

...

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby SSridhar » 18 Mar 2009 09:00

T.R. Baalu has been disastrous and has single handedly undone all the good work done earlier.

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby Sanjay M » 01 Aug 2010 03:41

TIME: Will India Be Ready to Host the Commonwealth Games?

With only 63 days left before the biggest sporting event in the nation's history, India looks woefully unprepared

---

Vee don't haf to build shtuff - vee are knowledge shooparpowerr onlee!

Theo_Fidel

Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Aug 2010 20:27

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 93036.html

India Rejects Vedanta's Niyamgiri Proposal

NEW DELHI—India's federal government rejected Vedanta Resources PLC's proposal to mine the Niyamgiri Hills for bauxite, setting back the company's plans to ramp up aluminum production to meet growing demand.

The rejection creates a double whammy for Vedanta. The London-based company's $8.5 billion–$9.6 billion bid for a majority stake in oil producer Cairn India Ltd. could be jeopardized as the Oil Ministry reviews Vedanta's proposed deal with the U.K.'s Cairn Energy PLC.

Tuesday's rejection could set off alarm bells among other global metals companies, such as Luxembourg-based ArcelorMittal, South Korea's Posco and India's Tata Steel Ltd., that await clearances for steel plants in tribal areas of eastern India.


The company said it has invested $5.4 billion in Orissa's aluminum projects, while its Lanjigarh refinery in Orissa alone has employed 10,000 workers. Vedanta said it hasn't violated regulations.


The Niyamgiri mining project has garnered global criticism since its inception. Activist groups, such as Survival International and Amnesty International, have kept up pressure on the company. They say the project could endanger the survival of the 8,000-odd Dongria Kondh tribes who live in and around the Niyamgiri Hills.


So to protect 8000 tribes people who live in the stone age, we eliminated 10,000 jobs.

And we wonder why our starvation statistics don't improve. Before these 'rights' groups get their panties in a bunch they should ask these tribes what their maternal and child care policies are. That would be very interesting I suspect.

Not saying Vedanta is an angel but still..

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby chetak » 24 Aug 2010 23:00

Theo_Fidel wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703447004575448803715493036.html

India Rejects Vedanta's Niyamgiri Proposal

NEW DELHI—India's federal government rejected Vedanta Resources PLC's proposal to mine the Niyamgiri Hills for bauxite, setting back the company's plans to ramp up aluminum production to meet growing demand.

The rejection creates a double whammy for Vedanta. The London-based company's $8.5 billion–$9.6 billion bid for a majority stake in oil producer Cairn India Ltd. could be jeopardized as the Oil Ministry reviews Vedanta's proposed deal with the U.K.'s Cairn Energy PLC.

Tuesday's rejection could set off alarm bells among other global metals companies, such as Luxembourg-based ArcelorMittal, South Korea's Posco and India's Tata Steel Ltd., that await clearances for steel plants in tribal areas of eastern India.


The company said it has invested $5.4 billion in Orissa's aluminum projects, while its Lanjigarh refinery in Orissa alone has employed 10,000 workers. Vedanta said it hasn't violated regulations.


The Niyamgiri mining project has garnered global criticism since its inception. Activist groups, such as Survival International and Amnesty International, have kept up pressure on the company. They say the project could endanger the survival of the 8,000-odd Dongria Kondh tribes who live in and around the Niyamgiri Hills.


So to protect 8000 tribes people who live in the stone age, we eliminated 10,000 jobs.

And we wonder why our starvation statistics don't improve. Before these 'rights' groups get their panties in a bunch they should ask these tribes what their maternal and child care policies are. That would be very interesting I suspect.

Not saying Vedanta is an angel but still..



Try and make the fine connection between this and Vedanta's unhealthy interest in Cairn Energy's stake in the Rajasthan oil fields.

The GOI is (very rightly) not going to place large energy resources in Vedanta's hands.


After getting an undeserved Rajya sabha, that loud mouth jairam is just singing for his supper. Some bali ke bakra called Saxena is fronting this and he seems to like the sound of his own voice on TV.

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby manish » 26 Aug 2010 13:37

Just saw Yuvaraj baba on TV, live from Niyamgiri. Claimed to be the 'soldier' representing tribals in Dilli and usurped all credit for protecting the interest of the tribals in this case. Both the NDTV dork reporting live from the scene as well as the dorkette in the studio seemed to be elated seeing/hearing Rahul baba speak and they could hardly control their feelings.

No wonder Vedanta did not get the go ahead. Looks like it was never meant to go ahead anyways.

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby Vasu » 26 Aug 2010 15:44

To take the propaganda forward, the Rajmata should instruct her government to rename the Niaymgiri forest as "Rajiv Gandhi Niyamgiri forests".

:evil:

There is another issue brewing in UP with the farmers in Aligarh now having reached New Delhi and planning to demonstrate at the Parliament. Digvijay Singh told the press that they should instead demonstrate at the State Assembly in Lucknow.

Some sensible journalist asked him then what about the Land Acquisition Act that the Con'gress government has hidden deep in some hole and refuses to table in the Parliament. Huh, what did the journalist know that the respected PM has already assured that the bill will be tabled and passed. These journalists, no?

Theo_Fidel

Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby Theo_Fidel » 26 Aug 2010 19:21

chetak wrote:Try and make the fine connection between this and Vedanta's unhealthy interest in Cairn Energy's stake in the Rajasthan oil fields.

The GOI is (very rightly) not going to place large energy resources in Vedanta's hands.


They are a company trying to buy something. Why is this unhealthy.

Also it is Alumina they want in Orissa.

I would say looking at a conspiracy behind every rock is unhealthy. Is there wheeling dealing. Of course there is.

Actually I don't mind the UP farmers agitating for more money. As long as it is peaceful.

It is this sort of playing games with the economy that gets my goat.

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby chetak » 26 Aug 2010 21:37

Theo_Fidel wrote:
chetak wrote:Try and make the fine connection between this and Vedanta's unhealthy interest in Cairn Energy's stake in the Rajasthan oil fields.

The GOI is (very rightly) not going to place large energy resources in Vedanta's hands.


They are a company trying to buy something. Why is this unhealthy.

Also it is Alumina they want in Orissa.

I would say looking at a conspiracy behind every rock is unhealthy. Is there wheeling dealing. Of course there is.

Actually I don't mind the UP farmers agitating for more money. As long as it is peaceful.

It is this sort of playing games with the economy that gets my goat.



Now look at it from the POV of the existing billionaires in the same business in India.

One particular group specially reputed for "managing the environment".

Maybe the coin will then drop. :)

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Re: Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

Postby Vivek K » 26 Aug 2010 22:19

NYT - India in Dire need of Civil Engineers
In 1990, civil engineering programs had the capacity to enroll 13,500 students, while computer science and information technology departments could accept but 12,100. Yet by 2007, after a period of incredible growth in India’s software outsourcing business, computer science and other information technology programs ballooned to 193,500; civil engineering climbed to only 22,700. Often, those admitted to civil engineering programs were applicants passed over for highly competitive computer science tracks.


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