Indian Manufacturing Sector

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titash
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by titash »

Atmavik wrote:
Titash ji,

What’s the state of semiconductor manufacturing in India? I hear that there is a global shortage. Does this create an opening for India ?
Hi Atmavik-ji, I cannot answer specifics due to lack of active reading-up, but here are my perceptions.

Semiconductor manufacturing is heavily dependent on:

1) Consistent reliable supplies of cheap electricity, water, compressed air/N2, solid supply chain of consumables like photoresist, etchants, doping furnace gases/chemicals, and raw material wafers. Disrupt any of these, and the economics of it all falls through the floor

2) Availability of motivated + skilled + reasonably high IQ (compared to other manufacturing operations) workforce, namely (a) non-CS engineers, (b) skilled hands-on technicians, (c) educated machine operators. This is necessary for process development, day-to-day troubleshooting, and continual improvement. Here is where we honestly cannot play well

3) Economic demand for products that justify a multi-billion dollar investment in 12" wafer fabs (in a cut-throat global competitive scenario, mind you). The alternative is to go with niche capabilities for strategic R&D fabs...which is what SCL in Chandigarh and the DRDO GaN/GaAs clusters are all about

I don't think we're going to enter this segment unless there's a clear government mandate for locally produced cellphone chips to service a huge local market...that is the only thing that'll make global OEMs play ball
titash
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by titash »

Atmavik wrote:
csaurabh wrote:They want to be part of a big story.
That sums it up. I do it-vty but still want to be part of something big.

I was on a linked in call with 4 students on their way to whorton MBA, very bright , but sadly their future will be outside India.

@csaurabh ji, excellent writing on a topic which is very important but hardly discussed. I would however recommend to go easy on the ‘banya’ reference. it brings down the level of ur writing.

If anything we need more entrepreneurs. We need university professors who can become millionaires. We need engineers who run business, as u point out it’s the other way round.

This sadly will take govt policy and handholding.
Multiple points here Atmavik-ji, CSaurabh-ji, and Rishi^2-ji,

1) Yes, smart young (and portly middle aged if you include me :D) people want to be part of something big. It's challenging to work for a boss who doesn't "get it" or has attained his position due to better managerial skills, people skills, or plain and simple politics. It is a fact of life that technical skills are not the only thing needed to get to the top, but its also a hard thing for people to accept. Ergo, the drive to do something "different" and "entrepreneurial"

2) The US specifically offers an abundance of opportunities for such motivated people to do something "different" and "entrepreneurial". And add to that an affordable big house, a BMW, a nice road, low traffic, lots of greenery...very quickly people start to figure out where they'd rather be

3) Under these circumstances, the "pull" of the motherland, Hinduism, family, etc. becoming the sole compelling reasons to contemplate a move back to India, or do something for India's long-term benefit, or even participate in BR Forums for that matter

4) As I've articulated before, it falls to people like us to start companies with a 100 year vision...start with data science, then IT, then mechatronics, then robots, then UAVs. It's a 100 year journey to set up a Tata Group or L&T. Having a nationalistic corporate leadership that has motivations beyond money is the only way to avoid becoming a Reliance i.e. lots of $$ but zero IP

5) Lastly - I am a 50% Bania on my mother's side, and there's some truth to what CSaurabh says about the "Bania Mentality". It exists, and it exists in Reliance, in Tier-II IT Companies, in Tier-I IT Companies, and pretty much any company where money is the prime driver as opposed to employee welfare and national advancement. It's an attribution to mindset and not caste per se
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Rishirishi »

I am a 100% Baniya and frankly speaking, some time I feel that they have not been given the credit they deserve. Their hard work was behind the capital formation, which was instrumental in driving the economy. Yes the corp culture in India is not a modern one, but that is largely due to the inherited culture after the license raj.

Everyone wants to be a part of something big.
Nothing Indian about that. Take ASML for example. They started up as a subcontractor to Phillips in 1985. They make the machines that make the semiconductors. Now a 14 billion dollar enterprise with a 48% profit margin. Their growth-path involved being able to retain their employees and also recruit the best people to work with them. They were able to attract the best minds from across the world to work with them, because they offered a great place to live. It is not only about the house and salary alone, but also education, culture, recreations, global connectivity and other stuff Holland is famous for :D :D .

Imagine trying to start something in Bangalore. There will be a constant pressure of people wanting to leave. Try attracting non Indians, to live in Bangalore. It is not only about money and gated community. It is about pollution, road traffic, sports facilities, parks, culture.

Mass manufacturing is ok, but it leads to mainly low payed jobs. By all means, India should focus on this. But I think India has an even stronger advantage creating high value creation jobs. Then it must offer an environment where high value creators want to be.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by kvraghav »

First thing is why to start something in delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore? Manufacturing can be done in tier two cities. Wanting to bring more people to Bangalore and complaining about traffic is quite contradiction. Indians should first buy from Indian companies which creates high value design jobs. This is what korea does. They completely design cars in korea and throw small manufacturing jobs to countries like India and we happily do their bidding.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by RajaRudra »

kvraghav wrote:First thing is why to start something in delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore? Manufacturing can be done in tier two cities. Wanting to bring more people to Bangalore and complaining about traffic is quite contradiction. Indians should first buy from Indian companies which creates high value design jobs. This is what korea does. They completely design cars in korea and throw small manufacturing jobs to countries like India and we happily do their bidding.
In my company case, they have offices in Bangalore, Mumbai, Chennai, Hyderabad and Pune.
Most of the senior mgmt are located in Bangalore and well settled. Any new contract coming to our company will be managed from Bangalore and only the sub mgmt of a part of work will be divided among other places.

So not moving to Tier two cities could be due to the same reason. Those who are supposed to take those decision considering the cost of living, attrition rate etc. are simply staying put.

I know another company whose three letters name starting with C and ending with S is having a similar model with most of the mgmt residing in Chennai and a lot of favoritisms. :lol:

All these companies are more agile and took decision to open up in Chennai/Bangalore/Hyderabad for some reasons, but with time the bureaucracy and mgmt stagnation starts in private industries also.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

--------- Part 6: How Indigenous are we? ---------------

Now that we understand how manufacturing is done, let's try to gauge how indigenous our manufacturing really is.
Too often we are ready to declare something as indigenous, when in fact, it is only partially indigenous. We should take into account the whole manufacturing ecosystem before making some judgements.

1. Assembly of components
Any product especially large and complicated products are made up of large amounts of components. We say that Sukhoi 30s and Samsung mobiles and Tatra trucks are made in India, but are they really? If you just assemble them out of a kit provided by the foreign manufacturer then what you have is assembly knowledge or screw-drivering. Not much more.

2. Part manufacturing
Ok so instead of full scale products let us make parts. But how are the parts made? Using manufacturing technologies that are imported of course. A part made using an imported machine is not much more indigenous than an assembly with 90% imported parts. We do make small parts for Boeing and Airbus in our MSMEs. But that doesn't make them very indigenous.

3. Machine development
Ok so lets develop machines for doing the manufacturing technologies. But machines are made of parts, right? So you are again back to step 1, because we don't make good parts for machines. Moreover machine or manufacturing technology development itself is a neglected subject in the country. We hardly have any people or companies that are really knowledgeable in this regard. Oh sure, we make a lot of simple machines with bulky parts. Like the ones Britain made in the 19th century. But not modern ones with latest manufacturing technologies.
So we don't make the machines, and we don't make good quality parts for machines. One visit to industrial fairs like IMTEX held in Bangalore will convince you of this. They bring machine makers from all over the world, US, China, Germany, Japan. But hardly any representation from India. Our startup work in this field and its really a struggle to get over 50% indigenization.

4. Raw materials
Every machine needs some sort of raw materials to create the product with. We do make simple raw materials like steel and plastics. But what if your product needs high quality materials. Like special alloys, carbon fibre, optical grade glass, porous rubber and hundreds of other specialty chemicals and materials. You're out of luck, we don't make them here. The only option is to import. Of course, we are less dependent than we were 50 years ago. Quite well known is the case of maraging steel and beryllium alloys developed by Midhani and ISRO. But in general this sector is poorly developed and we don't pay attention to it.

5. Software
Modern machinery is all about it data. They are controlled by data, or they generate data, or both. This data is of course digitized by computers - using software. We think of ourselves as an 'IT power' and very advanced in software. But the truth is that hardly any engineering software is developed here. It is all imported, often at a high cost. There is really no reason for this, our startup is making contribution here.

6. Academic research
The university research which ought to be a central pillar in any technology development is a complete failure in the field of manufacturing. Whether it is IITs or anyone else. They mostly write theoretical papers about things that are not really relevant.

7. Intellectual property rights
The whole concept of IP or patent is a red herring in India because patents are only given for 'new' things. But what we really need to work on are things that were developed 10,20 or 40 years ago that we still don't have the knowledge of. Journal papers have the same problem. We are hamstrung by an IP system that doesn't give any importance to indigenization.

8. Venture capital ecosystem
We do not have a good funding system for the development of manufacturing technologies. VCs do not understand its importance, and 'indigenous' is a bad word in their language and should be avoided. One needs to say something like world class technologies related to AI and robotics and its still really difficult (from our experience). We have a ridiculous amount of funding for things that are not important at all ( like food delivery startups ) but next to nothing for advanced manufacturing technologies.

So in a nutshell I would say that our manufacturing ecosystem is not very indigenous, and any improvement is slow and really difficult, because there are just too many holes that need to be plugged. The first thing we need to acknowledge is the lack of indigenization.

If a solid rocket motor casing in ISRO is made using 3M (American company) carbon fibre and resin, wound on a Bolenz and Shaefer (German) machine using imported Cadwind software, is it really indigenous. Let's not kid ourselves, it isn't very indigenous.

The final section will include my concluding thoughts and the way forward.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

-------- Part 7: Conclusion ---------------

We are not anywhere close to being indigenous in manufacturing and the lack of indigenous manufacturing technology is problematic in terms of both economics and national security.

We do not need to be 100% indigenous. You can be a strong manufacturing power by being 60-70% indigenous. Countries like France, Russia and South Korea are around this level. But you can't pretend to be a power with less than 5-10% indigenous manufacturing technology.

The solution can come over several decades. Remember that LCA and PSLV programs had development time of over 25 years. If we don't have it now, it doesn't mean we can't do it or we will never get there. We need to have confidence in ourselves. More importantly the captains of our manufacturing industry need to see the light and start putting substantial funding for manufacturing R&D. Baniyagiri is not good enough.

One improvement I would love to see is to set up a proper tracking portal for the development of manufacturing technologies. We should know what companies or organizations are working on which technologies. And we should be really honest about it. We should not pass off imported or assembled products as our own. Previous efforts such as Tech Sagar failed and became useless because they could not distinguish between developers of technolgies and vendors of imported products. Without this we are in a sort of black hole of no information and no proper decisions or policies can be made.

If you want to know about our startup, you can visit our website here . I will later organize these articles as blog posts on our site and perhaps try do develop the philosophy further.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

csaurabh, would this be an example of a company that imports and assembles, and also rebrands? Or actual manufacturer. Instrumentation is their product. They've been around for decades, that much I know :)

https://www.tipl.com/our-story
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Kakkaji »

Vedanta to set up Aluminium Park in Odisha with an investment of Rs 10,000 crore
Vedanta Ltd. plans to invest Rs 10,000 crore in setting up an aluminium park in Odisha to facilitate companies that use the metal to set up their manufacturing units in the facility.

“This aluminium park is along the lines of major industrial towns in other parts of India. It will generate additional livelihood for more than 1 lakh people and will touch the lives of more than 4 lakh,” the Anil Agarwal-led company said in a statement on Thursday.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

titash wrote: ...
2) The US specifically offers an abundance of opportunities for such motivated people to do something "different" and "entrepreneurial". And add to that an affordable big house, a BMW, a nice road, low traffic, lots of greenery...very quickly people start to figure out where they'd rather be
Broad tax base and somewhat better governance. As long as there are tax-evaders, no country can progress much.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Kakkaji »

Saint-Gobain commits Rs 1,100 crore investment in Rajasthan; plans to add more than 300 jobs
French manufacturing firm Saint-Gobain has committed a massive Rs 1,100 crore investment to the state of Rajasthan as a part of a phased expansion plan. The proposed investment would add more than 300 direct employment opportunities in the region of Bhiwadi and Alwar, making Rajasthan the home ground for Saint-Gobain’s Asian demand of float glass. Saint-Gobain said that its proposed investment comes after the company has already invested over Rs 1,200 crore in the state since 2010, creating more than 1,100 jobs. Sain-Gobain, a French firm involved in designing, manufacturing and distributing materials and solutions for the construction, mobility, healthcare and other industrial application markets.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:csaurabh, would this be an example of a company that imports and assembles, and also rebrands? Or actual manufacturer. Instrumentation is their product. They've been around for decades, that much I know :)

https://www.tipl.com/our-story
Hard to say, I have no first hand experience with this company :wink: But looks like they make some of the simpler instruments in their catalogue. Definitely they don't make the more sophisticated stuff like thermal imagers or cameras.

Meanwhile
DRDO develops Critical Near Isothermal Forging Technology for aeroengines

This is an example of a real achievement in the field of Manufacturing Technology. Lets be proud of it.
And it was made by -surprise surprise- GOI agencies. Not our much vaunted private sector.
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has established the near isothermal forging technology to produce all the five stages of high-pressure compressors (HPC) discs out of difficult-to-deform titanium alloy using its unique 2000 MT isothermal forge press. The technology has been developed by Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), a premier metallurgical laboratory of DRDO at Hyderabad. This is a crucial technology for establishing self-reliance in aeroengine technology. With this development, India has joined the league of limited global engine developers to have the manufacturing capabilities of such critical aero engine components.

To meet the bulk production requirements, DMRL technology was transferred to M/s MIDHANI through a licensing agreement for technology transfer (LAToT). Using the isothermal forge press facility available at DMRL, Hyderabad, bulk quantity (200 numbers) of HPC disc forgings pertaining to various compressor stages have been jointly (DMRL & MIDHANI) produced and successfully supplied to HAL (E), Bengaluru for fitment in to Adour Engine that powers the Jaguar/Hawk Aircrafts.

In India, the Adour engine is overhauled by HAL (E), Bengaluru under a licensed manufacturing agreement with OEM. Like in any aeroengine, the HPC Drum assembly has to be replaced after a specified number of operations or in case of damage. The annual requirements of these high value HPC discs are quite large, warranting indigenisation. HPC drum is a highly stressed sub-assembly and is also subjected to low cycle fatigue and creep at elevated temperature. The raw materials and forgings for HPC drum are required to be of the highest quality which can meet the specified combination of static and dynamic mechanical properties.

DMRL developed this forging technology by integrating various science and knowledge-based tools. The methodology adopted by DMRL is generic in nature and can be tuned to develop other similar aeroengine components. The compressor discs produced using this methodology met all the requirements stipulated by the airworthiness agencies for the desired application. Accordingly, the technology was type certified and letter of technical approval (LoTA) was accorded. Based on the exhaustive component level and performance evaluation test results, HAL (E) and Indian Air Force cleared the components for engine fitment. Apart from DMRL and HAL (E), various agencies such as MIDHANI, CEMILAC and DGAQA worked in unison to establish this crucial technology.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh has congratulated the scientists of DRDO, Industry and all other agencies involved in the development of this critical Aero Engine related technology.

Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy expressed his satisfaction on achieving this crucial milestone and congratulated the teams involved.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by chetak »

Every commercial Airbus aircraft being produced today has a major ingredient from India.

Airbus has more than 45 Indian suppliers in the supply chain.



Image
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

^
Airbus' Indian suppliers- excellent. I wonder if there are other also less known Indian inputs in global manufacture.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Rishirishi »

chetak wrote:Every commercial Airbus aircraft being produced today has a major ingredient from India.

Airbus has more than 45 Indian suppliers in the supply chain.



Image

Anyone know the total value of the Indian supplies ?
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

chetak wrote:Every commercial Airbus aircraft being produced today has a major ingredient from India.

Airbus has more than 45 Indian suppliers in the supply chain.

Image
Any large aircraft has 100,000s of parts if not more. They are usually classified by importance as A,B,C level parts. The components sourced from India are mainly C-level parts. Like small washers, pins, ceramic moldings, etc.

Large aircraft OEMs like Airbus and Boeing have 10,000-20,000 suppliers. We shouldn't be surprised if some of them are from India. Btw 45 is too low, the real number would probably be 10 times higher if we count subcontracting. Like Boeing outsources some work to Tata and Tata outsources it to some MSME.

The above diagram is also confusing as it implies things like Cyient making landing gear. Well, Airbus landing gear are made by Liebherr. It is possible that Cyient makes a small component in that, but that's about it.
We don't make high value or sophisticated items like sensors, optics, electronics, actuators, hydraulics, etc.

Just putting things in perspective.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by nandakumar »

The link below is a news item about Australians boycotting Chinese made chocolates.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ssion=true
The interesting thing from Indian perspective is this. China imports all of the cocoa needed for making chocolates. I dare say they don't produce the milk that goes into the chocolates. Yet they produce chocolates that Nestle find it cheaper to export to Australia than from India.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by sanjaykumar »

Chinese made chocolates are consumed by Australians. Even Filipinos don't eat such (no disrespect meant, it is just that they are very price conscious).
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by SriKumar »

csaurabh wrote:
chetak wrote:Every commercial Airbus aircraft being produced today has a major ingredient from India.

Airbus has more than 45 Indian suppliers in the supply chain.

Image
Any large aircraft has 100,000s of parts if not more. They are usually classified by importance as A,B,C level parts. The components sourced from India are mainly C-level parts. Like small washers, pins, ceramic moldings, etc.

Large aircraft OEMs like Airbus and Boeing have 10,000-20,000 suppliers. We shouldn't be surprised if some of them are from India. Btw 45 is too low, the real number would probably be 10 times higher if we count subcontracting. Like Boeing outsources some work to Tata and Tata outsources it to some MSME.

The above diagram is also confusing as it implies things like Cyient making landing gear. Well, Airbus landing gear are made by Liebherr. It is possible that Cyient makes a small component in that, but that's about it.
That part tripped me up, too. I did not think Cyient (which used to be called Infotech Engineering Services) manufactured landing gear which is a highly specialized and intense process. I thought maybe they bought a company or something, if the graphic is to be believed. Is the graphic conflating design work with manufacture. The graphic also implies major fuselage parts are made in India. I dont know which Indian company makes fuselage parts for an Airbus (big ticket item). Designing in India is different from making in India.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by chetak »

Landing gear and other such items are critical components and one doubts very much if the manufacturing of such major sub assemblies will be done in their entirety in India.

These guys are making only some parts of this assembly.

in 1985, the germans were already milling the main wing of the DO-228 from a single block of aluminium alloy. In 2021, they are far ahead of us, even as we continue to chug along, still mired in caste reservations, job quotas and appeasement policies.

Some individual european countries are taking baby steps in getting their supply chains to include Indian companies and more such work may come to India from companies like Airbus in france and germany because of brexit and the general historical aversion to the UK on the continental europe and the EU's own desire to break into the Indian market and get into the good books of the GoI. Many have moved out of china and are actively looking for new supply sources to develop

pappu's gaslighting of a company like rafale and rafale's own idiotic ex senior management types getting involved in giving malicious statements about their own company and country has not gone down well in the current climate

Modi is making a distinction between individual countries of the EU and the EU parliament per se and their president who is keen to muscle in on trade and diplomatic relations and direct it from a collective EU perspective. To me, the EU parliament seems racist, anti India and continues to deal with us in a supremacist manner

Modi is more into bilateral arrangements which seem to work better for India. The UK is trying to set up a base in India after being rebuffed on the continent and indeed from the US too. Their colonial mindset hasn't seemed to have changed one bit from their east India company days and their culture during the 1857 days

we are actually getting better deals from countries closer home like singapore and some gelf states.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vcsekhar »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:csaurabh, would this be an example of a company that imports and assembles, and also rebrands? Or actual manufacturer. Instrumentation is their product. They've been around for decades, that much I know :)
https://www.tipl.com/our-story
I had some experience with this company several years ago and I was not impressed. They make some of their stuff and the rest seems to be imported and brand labelled.
As a rule of thumb, an easy way to determine if a product is made locally or imported is the casing, if its a well made moulded plastic case, then its imported. If its a metal case or a simple plastic case made of multiple panels, then its most likely locally manufactured.
Here are some of my experiences as a person who has been in the electronic components manufacturing field for a couple of decades.
This may seem very cynical, but, the capability to produce good quality, high production rate mould tooling is very poor in India for consumer goods. You do see high quality tooling for industrial products like connectors, relays etc but in my experience these are designed and made by the manufacturers themselves in their own tool shops.
We regularly need to get tooling made for stamped parts and small precision plastic parts, we have tried a huge number of companies locally but pretty much everyone just talks and does not deliver what is required. So in the end we end up designing and making them ourselves.
Our other option is to get the tooling made in Taiwan but that has its own issues due to the language barrier even though we have been dealing with suppliers in Taiwan for over 20 years.
Regarding the availability of good quality raw materials in India for electronic components, our experience has been very poor. Either the materials are not good enough in quality, or, they cannot support the volumes required, or/and, they are too expensive. Things like ceramic parts, metal stamping's etc are very tough to source locally. Then comes things a bit more difficult like basic measuring instruments (like L/C/R meters), we still end up getting these from Japan because the local ones are just not good enough. Now these instruments are nothing fantastic in terms of technology but the key lies in good component selection and great build quality so that measurement quality can be maintained for a long time. The other reason why these companies are so good at making these is that they have a demanding market and they have constantly iterated to have great instruments.
When it comes to infrastructure and the ease of doing business in India for manufacturing companies, the less said the better. If I go on it will just be a litany of issues.
Anyways, thats just my 2 cents.
Cheers
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vinamr_s »

Is there a bill pending in the parliament or any state assembly which intends to implement Hire-Fire policy and/or a social security system for the labor?

Because I think this is extremely essential if we need to improve our manufacturing capability. (Other stuff I can think of regarding labor laws is- completely eliminating maximum overtime limit & reducing premium pay for overtime from 100% to 50% to move a step ahead at establishing parity with the US & China in terms of stringency in regulations)
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

vcsekhar wrote:
I had some experience with this company several years ago and I was not impressed. They make some of their stuff and the rest seems to be imported and brand labelled.
As a rule of thumb, an easy way to determine if a product is made locally or imported is the casing, if its a well made moulded plastic case, then its imported. If its a metal case or a simple plastic case made of multiple panels, then its most likely locally manufactured.
Here are some of my experiences as a person who has been in the electronic components manufacturing field for a couple of decades.
This may seem very cynical, but, the capability to produce good quality, high production rate mould tooling is very poor in India for consumer goods. You do see high quality tooling for industrial products like connectors, relays etc but in my experience these are designed and made by the manufacturers themselves in their own tool shops.
We regularly need to get tooling made for stamped parts and small precision plastic parts, we have tried a huge number of companies locally but pretty much everyone just talks and does not deliver what is required. So in the end we end up designing and making them ourselves.
Our other option is to get the tooling made in Taiwan but that has its own issues due to the language barrier even though we have been dealing with suppliers in Taiwan for over 20 years.
Regarding the availability of good quality raw materials in India for electronic components, our experience has been very poor. Either the materials are not good enough in quality, or, they cannot support the volumes required, or/and, they are too expensive. Things like ceramic parts, metal stamping's etc are very tough to source locally. Then comes things a bit more difficult like basic measuring instruments (like L/C/R meters), we still end up getting these from Japan because the local ones are just not good enough. Now these instruments are nothing fantastic in terms of technology but the key lies in good component selection and great build quality so that measurement quality can be maintained for a long time. The other reason why these companies are so good at making these is that they have a demanding market and they have constantly iterated to have great instruments.
When it comes to infrastructure and the ease of doing business in India for manufacturing companies, the less said the better. If I go on it will just be a litany of issues.
Anyways, thats just my 2 cents.
Cheers
This is the kind of discussion this thread needs more.
The inability of the Indian msme to make basic parts like mould tooling without proper handholding is quite baffling.
The Japanese, Taiwanese and others reached their positions through commitment to their craft and disciplined learning over generations, our people just believe in baniyagiri and refuse to learn science or engineering.

I am currently reading a biography of Vikram Sarabhai who was not just chairman of ISRO but was infact an excellent institution builder and familiar with the entire swathe of the Indian manufacturing ecosystem ( he was an entrepreneur and businessman as well as a scientist ) from textiles to chemicals to scientific instruments. Some of his observations are startlingly familiar with the current scenario in the country. I will post excerpts when I have some time.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by chola »

csaurabh wrote:
This is the kind of discussion this thread needs more.
The inability of the Indian msme to make basic parts like mould tooling without proper handholding is quite baffling.
The Japanese, Taiwanese and others reached their positions through commitment to their craft and disciplined learning over generations, our people just believe in baniyagiri and refuse to learn science or engineering.

I am currently reading a biography of Vikram Sarabhai who was not just chairman of ISRO but was infact an excellent institution builder and familiar with the entire swathe of the Indian manufacturing ecosystem ( he was an entrepreneur and businessman as well as a scientist ) from textiles to chemicals to scientific instruments. Some of his observations are startlingly familiar with the current scenario in the country. I will post excerpts when I have some time.
The Japanese and Taiwanese are part of the same integrated Far Eastern eco-system that enforces a strict standard that allow them to export to the West. The Korean and Chinese are also part of this and so are those select firms now rising in Vietnam, Malaysia and Thailand during the exodus from Cheen.

Were India part of this globalized export engine then our firms would have had to adhere to standard.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vinamr_s »

vcsekhar wrote: [...] When it comes to infrastructure and the ease of doing business in India for manufacturing companies, the less said the better. If I go on it will just be a litany of issues.
I think it can lead to a useful discussion for this thread if you wish to elaborate on issues related to infrastructure & ease of manufacturing here, even if the list is long :)

=====
csaurabh wrote:I am currently reading a biography of Vikram Sarabhai who was not just chairman of ISRO but was infact an excellent institution builder and familiar with the entire swathe of the Indian manufacturing ecosystem ( he was an entrepreneur and businessman as well as a scientist ) from textiles to chemicals to scientific instruments. Some of his observations are startlingly familiar with the current scenario in the country. I will post excerpts when I have some time.
Are you reading the one authored by Amrita Shah?
Last edited by vinamr_s on 08 Jun 2021 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

csaurabh wrote:our people just believe in baniyagiri and refuse to learn science or engineering.
That and jugaaD. Jugaad can take one only so far.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Philip »

Staggering CV figs for HAL.
100 dead,4000,+ve, LCA ,LCH projects hit. 1200cr. loss.
One can only estimate the combined total casualties and losses of the DPSUs!
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

vinamr_s wrote: Are you reading the one authored by Amrita Shah?
Yes, and I'm actually surprised there aren't many more given the importance of the topic.

Reading the book, I am struck at the extra-ordinarily ad-hoc and 'Wild West' culture of the setting up of scientific and engineering institutes in the country in the two decades following our independence. None of the bureaucratic laziness and sarkari babu talk that we see today in our institutions.

Vikram Sarabhai was the ultimate example of this. He was not just a scientist but also an entrepreneur, businessman and institution builder par excellence. In the time period between 1945 to his death in 1971, he set up an ran multiple private organizations AND public institutions, something that would be impossible in our era. Here is a short list of organizations he established or contributed to.

ISRO ( Indian Space Research Organization ): Most famous role. Known as Father of Indian Space programme. First Chairman of ISRO 1969-72 and also of its precursor organization INCOSPAR which had been started in 1963
ATIRA ( Ahmedabad Textile Research Industry association ): Still the premier textile research organization in this country
AMA (Ahmedabad Management Organization ), now known as IIM-A . First management institute in the country
ORG (Observer Research Group ): First market analytics organization in the country
NID (National Institute of Design, Ahmedabad ): First such in the country
PRL (Physical Research Laboratory ): One of the first big science research organizations in country. Now part of ISRO
Darpana - Dance troupe established by his wife Mrinalini, but he took a big role in it
Sarabhai Glasses and Chemicals: One of the first pharmaceutical companies to make antibiotics etc.
AEC (Atomic Energy Commission ): Now known as Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC). His last and perhaps most important role, taking over the role of India's chief scientist after Bhabha's death. Clear vision in establishing nuclear energy and atomic bomb.

All this he achieved within his short life of 52 years and in an underdeveloped country at the height of the license raj. It is staggering even to read about it. A strange thing that he is not more promoted in our history readings. All we learn about this period is Nehru and his idiotic policies.

Here are some of Sarabhai's observations regarding India's manufacturing sector and institutions that hold remarkably true today

Bania aversion to scientific research (Even that which they had paid for and got big returns )
Bania aversion to professional management
Reliance on 'jugaad' techniques because of lack of planning and communication
Indian academia pursuing abstract ideas and western papers totally unhelpful to development of country
Litany of licenses and red tapism
Imported products being preferred over indigenization

I will post detailed excerpts from the book when I have the time.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by V_Raman »

I am surprised that India does not have good Injection mold related ecosystem as we have a big automotive industry.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vinamr_s »

V_Raman wrote:I am surprised that India does not have good Injection mold related ecosystem as we have a big automotive industry.
Do Indian auto assemblers even import bumpers, door panels, interior surfaces, handles, dashboard faceplate, other components under the hood etc? I thought we only import engines, transmission and other complex parts. If we are even importing parts made from injection moulding, we must be too amateurish.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vcsekhar »

V_Raman wrote:I am surprised that India does not have good Injection mold related ecosystem as we have a big automotive industry.
I am sure that there are good injection mould tooling companies but we have not found them yet, but, from our experience, good tooling engineers in India are typically at companies that make the product, ie, its all in house talent.
As anyone who has experience with mould tooling and precision stamping tooling knows, this is a highly specialized field and requires a lot of experience to know what works and what does not work. This comes from having designed and then run the tools to actually make the parts. It requires a lot of close coordination and passing of knowledge between the tool maker and the user. So in India you typically see this only in the in house tooling setups. If you visit any company that makes connectors (requires both moulding and precision pressed parts) they will have their own tool room and engineers.
In China and Taiwan, there is not much vertical integration as there are clusters of highly specialized companies in any one area. For example, in Taiwan, a small industrial cluster will have multiple tooling companies and multiple moulding/stamping companies, and none of the moulding companies will have the capability to make their own tools. Anything goes wrong, they just pick up the phone and call the local guy to come and take a look and fix their problems.
This is a massive advantage that we in India cannot even imagine having at this time.

Jugaad.... we in India are very proud of our jugaad and the ability to solve problems creatively and cheaply. However, this does not work in the long term in any quality manufacturing industry. To have a stable production of high quality products we need good quality, high reliability machines that work smoothly without stoppages. This is just not possible with jugaad.
As an example, we have several automated machines that have multiple sensors and guards around them for safety. At the first sign of problem, the operators used to disable the switches and operate them without sensors and depend on some jugaad to keep the machine working. It took me months for me to find all these silly fixes and buy proper spares to fix all the machines properly. Now, we stock all kinds of spares to keep the machines in good condition. Of course, the costs have gone up, but, productivity is also up and breakdowns are much lower.
Again, it is easy to say baniyagiri etc etc... but it is not easy to manufacture a product in high volume at low prices. Manufacturers here have to compete with established players in the east and the west at low costs and high specification requirements. People have to find a safe niche to grow in and to start getting noticed in the industry. Spending on research and development is not easy, this happens when you have a close relationship with your large customers and they trust you to deliver good products in the volumes they require. For example, take for instance a cell phone, this requires lots of different components, for every advance in the system lots of little advances are required in the components. This means that the end customer has to trust the component suppliers to improve their products continuously. This means that what you are making this year, you may not make next year. Which means that new investment may be required to be made even before the previous investment is fully recouped. Take for example the surface mount products, sizes have gone from 2512 years ago to 0204 or 0102 these days (6.25 x 3.125mm down to 1mm x 2mm). Every step required new machines and new investment. Lots of people tried to make these in india and every single one of them failed as there was never enough volume to justify the investment. you might say "Export it" but again this is not easy, there are lots of barriers, chief among them is the fact that the customers want their suppliers close to them so that coordination is easier. If a MNC is manufacturing in india, they do not give any leeway to the local guys to change a supplier or select a different component. So forget about breaking into the established customers.
This is a never ending chicken and egg issue, so what we did almost 30 years ago is to concentrate on exports and built our brand with our customers over a long time and now they trust us to design and make new stuff for them. Its not easy but certainly not impossible. But along the way we have seen many of our local competitors go away as they didnt invest sufficiently into their manufacturing facilities.
Like I had said earlier, we can talk about this endlessly and it might be better suited for a discussion at a BRF meet at some point in the future. Aero india next year???
Cheers
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vijayk »

Does anyone here know people or personally have experience food processing industry?
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vcsekhar »

vijayk wrote:Does anyone here know people or personally have experience food processing industry?
what kind of food processing experience are you looking for? Ready to eat snack stuff or fruit packing etc?
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by csaurabh »

Regarding electronics parts a few years back my friend was investigating the usage of locally made BNC and other RF connectors for aerospace applications. But we found them to be of not as good quality as the imported ones from TE connectivity. I don't know what the problem was exactly, poor raw material, wrong mold technique or whatever.

This is where our research institutes and academia have really let us down. Instead of investigating real world concerns like metallurgy and mold design for connectors, they have just been engaged in abstract ideas and ivory tower thinking.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vcsekhar »

csaurabh wrote:Regarding electronics parts a few years back my friend was investigating the usage of locally made BNC and other RF connectors for aerospace applications. But we found them to be of not as good quality as the imported ones from TE connectivity. I don't know what the problem was exactly, poor raw material, wrong mold technique or whatever.

This is where our research institutes and academia have really let us down. Instead of investigating real world concerns like metallurgy and mold design for connectors, they have just been engaged in abstract ideas and ivory tower thinking.
For specialized components like RF connectors, it will be a demand and supply issue for local manufacture. There is not sufficient local demand to support a company as the first thing a customer will do is to compare prices with a foreign company like TE for instance who most likely makes the part in their China factory (or maybe their India plant). There is no room for a new company to develop a new part and supply into established markets as the quality requirements are tough from the get go.
For example, We get asked to supply a detailed defect analysis and corrective action reports when we get even a few ppm levels of failure in components.

I agree with your point about the attitude of the research institutes and academia, they all want to solve things that have no real world concern. There were institutions like the ETDC and ERTL who were staffed with competent people and with good equipment, which are now mostly in total disrepair, staffed by people who hardly know what is testing and how to test components. They dont even have an understanding of the Indian defense component standards (JSS), for example, we wanted to get some tests done as we did not have the environmental chambers required for it, turned out that the guys had no idea how to run the tests and asked us to supply the standard to them, finally we took the chamber on a per day basis and did the tests ourselves after figuring out how to program the chamber.
Lots of little things, but they all add up to big things.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vinamr_s »

vcsekhar ji,

Considering you have several years of experience in the electronic component manufacturing industry, you must be having some idea on the impact of SEZ (assuming companies you worked with were exporting). Especially, the impact on companies which aren’t/couldn’t get into an SEZ. It might be quite tough to compete with SEZ units as they get a lot of tax exemptions. Can you illuminate us on that and how exporters have been reacting all these years?

Some macro data can give us hint on export market shift to SEZ units, (and I’m trying to collect related data), but I wanted to know the reactions at the individual level.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by Vadivel »

SaraLax
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by SaraLax »

vinamr_s wrote:
V_Raman wrote:I am surprised that India does not have good Injection mold related ecosystem as we have a big automotive industry.
Do Indian auto assemblers even import bumpers, door panels, interior surfaces, handles, dashboard faceplate, other components under the hood etc? I thought we only import engines, transmission and other complex parts. If we are even importing parts made from injection moulding, we must be too amateurish.
Ofcourse Yes - we even import the small nuts, bolts and washers too !. How much more amateurish can the indian manufacturers get. :wink:
Indian auto companies and manufacturing engines .... what the heck were you thinking ... how is it even possible for us folks to manufacture such complex technologies. We sure are manufacturing them ... but in our dreams and during chai-biscoot sessions in a nearby chota chai dukaan. Don't you know we are lead by a person who was once a tea seller ?. :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by vinamr_s »

SaraLax wrote:Don't you know we are lead by a person who was once a tea seller ?. :rotfl:
Either I’m not able to understand the joke, or I’ve learnt that BRFites make fun of NaMo.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Post by tandav »

Vadivel wrote:
Interesting that they started in 1970s and did not get very far inspite of govt help and investment. It is the private companies like INARI etc there which have lead the charge. The Govt owned SILTERRA is a loss maker second only to the Malaysian Airlines.

I think India has no entity in either front end or the back end semiconductor manufacturing process as mentioned in the clip. Not only that SEMI Conductor manufacturing requires a massive amount of water which unless we secure the Himalayas or install huge desalination plants we will not be able to get to play with the big boys.
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