Indian Manufacturing Sector

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hanumadu
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby hanumadu » 05 Jan 2021 20:43

When I said how hard it is to move from 500 nm to 100 nm technology, I was assuming we have indigenous 500nm technology.

GAETEC stands for Gallium Arsenide Enabling Technology Centre. So what exactly are they enabling if the manufacturing process is imported? Is it just design and manufacture or chips and devices for strategic purposes?

500 nm is a nearly 30 years old technology. We should have been able to develop it in India by now considering that GAETEC, SITAR have been in operation for more than 20 years now.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-establishment/about-us/society-integrated-circuit-technology-and-applied-research-sitar
GAETEC has absorbed process technology developed at SSPL and has been producing MMICs with 0.7-micron gate length MESFETs (G7a) and 0.5micron gate length MESFETs (G5A) in GaAs Fab.


So at least part or all of the process is indigenous.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-establishment/about-us/solid-state-physics-laboratory-sspl
Device quality II-VI/III-V semiconductor crystals and heterostructures have also been developed by the Lab.


So, we can develop at least silicon wafers or the equivalent.
IISc is working on GaN foundry and says it could set up one if it is given the funds.
Surely they couldn't be doing it without being able to manufacture silicon wafers.

It's not as if nothing is being done in semi conductor research in India.
IIT Mandi is involved in developing etching processes.
Work on graphene semiconductors is also being done.

Somebody must be doing work on lasers and optics too. We should be able to build lasers that are 30 years old technology.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Prasad » 05 Jan 2021 21:48

PLI only. We have nowhere near the kind of money to start from scratch.
The issue is everything from raw material to equipment comes from abroad. If you want failsafe for strategic purposes, building scale on the civilian side of things is a great way to do it. And the whole economic reason for civilian side of things is always there. Massive demand - why import when you can make here?

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chaitanya » 06 Jan 2021 01:28

Its a chicken and egg issue. While I understand csaurabh's frustration, it makes no sense to blame baniyas, as they are no different than businessmen anywhere else. Right now the 'baniyas' are being smart and using labor arbitrage to their advantage. Even the government is exploiting low-tech approaches to get results - when you can invest in (relatively) straightforward technology to create an additional rail corridor to boost the GDP by a good margin, why spend time focusing on developing nanopositioners, diode lasers and other stuff? As Suraj has pointed out so many times, simply providing electricity, water and roads is good enough to boost GDP, improve HDI, and win elections.

The argument that we need to be able to 'build everything from scratch' is also really hard to justify, especially given our current situation. When the US was building up to become a tech superpower, it relied on key enabling technologies from abroad, and continues to do so. By no means am I saying we should not focus on becoming self reliant on manufacturing or measurement technology, but a LOT can be done with the manufacturing technology itself. Knowing HOW to use the manufacturing technology is, IMVHO, just as important as the manufacturing technology itself.

I think India needs to be forward looking and focus on being able to reach a point where current cutting-edge technologies can be researched and produced, not solely catching up on stuff mastered by others 30 years ago. Nowhere is this need more apparent than in nanofabrication. Posters on BRF and commentators elsewhere talk about how India needs to catch up on numerous technologies - quantum computation, communication, telecom equipment, sensors, imagers, photonics, microfluidics, advanced solar cells, next-gen power storage, etc. Advancements in these areas now almost exclusively require advanced nanofabrication techniques.

Therefore, modern nanofab facilities are a must to be current on these technologies. These facilities are highly specialized, require custom buildings and tremendous training to operate. While most of the equipment and personnel can be imported (see KAUST; imported facilities and labs), but what cannot be easily imported is the know-how of using the fabrication methods. While China has been assembling numerous clean room facilities and nanofabs, they have invested a lot of effort in trying to train people and steal process methodology to manufacture these technologies - I have seen this happening first hand. Interestingly, these nanofab processes will also be required to realize many next-gen manufacturing technologies and catalyze revolutions in other areas. Sort of a self-feedback loop. Oxford Nanopore is a great example of the power of fabrication know-how. These guys spent decades to come up with an alternative to the most commonly used form of DNA sequencing - Illumina dye sequencing - that relies on reading out variations in electric charge along a strand of DNA by pulling it through a nanopore. The technology is quite amazing and in the long run will eventually replace the Illumina based approach. The point is this: there is no scope of this being developed now, or even 10 years from now, if major steps are not taken to get cutting-edge fabrication methods and know-how into the country.

While the current PLI scheme is great, the GOI needs to place additional focus needs to be placed on accessing deep tech and making it available. One way would be to partner with companies that are experiencing some pain right now - and Intel comes to the top of my mind. Intel missed out on both the ARM and the fabless manufacturing revolution. They missed out on GPU-accelerated neural nets as well, and now Apple, amazon and google are all pursuing their own processor lines. That being said, Intel is still formidable; I think the GOI should try to lure Intel with a two-fold approach:
  1. Semiconductor Foundries: While Intel has so far missed out on this opportunity, India is a major untapped market. We have long talked on this forum about inviting TSMC and similar companies, but Intel might be more willing to explore new sources of revenue at this point, given the GOI provides enough incentive.
  2. Academic Research: The GOI can invite Intel and other companies to invest in the creation of nanotech core facilities around the country. Here, the companies can be compensated for their investment with the ability to perform research at these facilities and for some fair share of the IP generated using them. In exchange, the companies will provide investment, equipment, know-how, and technicians to operate these facilities optimally. Such core facilities have been developed around the world and are very successful in creating new IP; it may also help in attracting some talented researchers back to the country.
Of course the above could be with any other company as well, I just thought embattled Intel might be worth a shot. Any such deal would be complex - the dual use nature of the technologies that can be manufactured, along with the IP rights, need to be carefully managed. However, research in these new fields needs to be kick started in the country.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 06 Jan 2021 10:25

hanumadu wrote:When I said how hard it is to move from 500 nm to 100 nm technology, I was assuming we have indigenous 500nm technology.

GAETEC stands for Gallium Arsenide Enabling Technology Centre. So what exactly are they enabling if the manufacturing process is imported? Is it just design and manufacture or chips and devices for strategic purposes?

500 nm is a nearly 30 years old technology. We should have been able to develop it in India by now considering that GAETEC, SITAR have been in operation for more than 20 years now.


I highly doubt we have -any- indigenously developed lithography machine at all. We don't even have it for micro-electronics, where the sizes are measured in microns rather than nanometers.

The fact that some technology is 30 yrs old changes nothing. Boeing 747 was developed in 1965. We still can't make it. Less extreme example? CO2 laser was first developed in 1964 ( by an Indian no less ). Guess how many CO2 lasers are made in India? Zilch.

GAETEC is likely to be similar to most other DRDO/ISRO centers. They use imported manufacturing technology ( meaning machines, software, raw materials, etc. ) to make some product in small quantities for in-house use. That does not qualify as indigenous or commercial.

LASTEC ( DRDO's center for Laser technologies ) was set up in the 1960s. Guess how many lasers they have developed for commercial market?

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby titash » 06 Jan 2021 11:46

csaurabh wrote:To go from one size semiconductor node to another just requires the lithography machine to be changed. All the other process machines - chemical deposition, etching, ion implantation, cutting, grinding etc. remain same, unless the wafer size is changed ( but that happens very infrequently ).

I spent 11 years in Photo & Etch. They tend to go hand in hand. You typically will need new generation etchers as you cross technology nodes.

csaurabh wrote: Honestly we are too stuck up about this node size things. Plenty of semiconductors can be made at 500 nm too. Sensors for cameras for example. And power semiconductors? No high precision required there. The problem is that we don't have -any- semiconductor industry, not the node size.

Very true. Texas Instruments stopped competing in 2007 after the 65nm node in DMOS6, and made a strategic switch from Digital to Analog Commodity chips for Power etc. They tooled up the previously stalled RFAB to make 300mm Analog chips at 65nm (or 90nm perhaps). Their stock price has gone up 5x since I left the company 7 years ago

csaurabh wrote:Can we make a 500nm lithography machine with the available technology in India? I would say: No. (Not counting machines with 90% imported parts ). You need piezoelectric nano positioner corrected by laser inteferometry for that and also the laser for marking. No one is working on these things in India. We just know how to operate them if we import them from abroad.

I agree - there is very little khujli/motivation to do things for self sufficiency and the sheer joy of building something from scratch. Pragmatism and ROI rule. More on this in my next post

csaurabh wrote:Just the initial process of purifying the silicon, making it into a cylinder, cutting thin wafer slices and microgrinding to a smooth finish may pose insurmountable challenges for a country so backward as ours. Indians are rubbish in manufacturing technology. We only have manufacturing services in India, technicians operating imported machines bought by banias. No engineers or researchers. (Generally speaking )

Re: Banias...I have an interesting perspective based on experience in last 5 years

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby titash » 06 Jan 2021 12:20

chaitanya wrote:Its a chicken and egg issue. While I understand csaurabh's frustration, it makes no sense to blame baniyas, as they are no different than businessmen anywhere else. Right now the 'baniyas' are being smart and using labor arbitrage to their advantage. Even the government is exploiting low-tech approaches to get results - when you can invest in (relatively) straightforward technology to create an additional rail corridor to boost the GDP by a good margin, why spend time focusing on developing nanopositioners, diode lasers and other stuff? As Suraj has pointed out so many times, simply providing electricity, water and roads is good enough to boost GDP, improve HDI, and win elections.

Disclaimer - I am half Baniya on my mother's side.

Growing up in Bombay, I never really heard the term "Baniyagiri". I joined IITB in 1996 and heard it used quite liberally by my North Indian classmates. It has to be experienced to be understood.

I worked for a large US IT Consulting firm for a few years and then joined two Tier-II Desi IT Consulting firms (I lasted only 11 months and 6 months respectively). Some differences in mindset, ethics, and expectations are immediately apparent.

1) Appetite for pre-sales investment is zero; no investment will be made in a customer (let alone in technology development) unless there is a contract just around the corner

2) Firms of 20,000 odd employees and $1B in revenue have zero R&D or intellectual property. There is a huge difference between .PPT vaporware and hardcore software / hardware IP. From what I understand, the same is true for the larger Wipro Infosys TCS Cognizant HCL (WITCH) companies. And these are our Dalal Street flagships, mind you

3) Ethics are abysmal...outright lying about capabilities, expertise...you name it. Sell first and deliver later is the name of the game. This is a very different paradigm from the larger US firms.

The above "Baniyagiri" is real, and I'm 100% sure it translates to manufacturing as well. There is a very good reason why things are the way they are. If you can sell and profit from labor arbitrage, why would you look 100 years into the future and invest in painstaking R&D. That very act requires a long term vision and a dedication to a higher cause than oneself.

Most of us are here on BR because we are largely conservative folk with a moral backbone who care about India's long term interests. It is up to us to start companies with a 100 year vision that are unhindered by "let's grab whatever $$ I can this year" mentality. These companies are the foundations of a mighty industrialized empire. The US is where it is today because of the core competencies of Lockheed and General Electric, not because of Walt Disney and Facebook

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 06 Jan 2021 17:03

titash wrote:Most of us are here on BR because we are largely conservative folk with a moral backbone who care about India's long term interests. It is up to us to start companies with a 100 year vision that are unhindered by "let's grab whatever $$ I can this year" mentality. These companies are the foundations of a mighty industrialized empire. The US is where it is today because of the core competencies of Lockheed and General Electric, not because of Walt Disney and Facebook


+1, 100%
I have started a manufacturing R&D company, 2 years running, some success . Tremendously challenging at every level.
Totally different from some % profit waala baniyagiri which is what most people understand the private sector to be. They don't associate private company with IP or R&D.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby chaitanya » 06 Jan 2021 21:34

Hi Titash,

I'm 100% baniya and have family members who span the spectrum! One cousin is into import/export of housewares and refuses to innovate on even that, while another builds automobile diagnostics rigs and is doing R&D to improve those and export them. I have many stories of true baniyagiri and innovation I can share at a later point, but I do realize my views represent a point sample and may not be representative of the whole.

I share your moral backbone belief, but I fundamentally disagree on how the majority of the world is. I think most people are driven by personal gain, whether in India or anywhere else. In many cases, it turns out that drive for personal gain ends up benefiting the country itself. Your example of General Electric - it was founded by Edison who was a selfish egomaniac; in modern times, you have people like Elon Musk who are in the same mold. There is no doubt that SpaceX helps further American sovereignty, but I doubt his intentions stem from furthering that. In order to promote tech development you need a healthy ecosystem of reliable financial backers, business friendly laws, tech-savvy businessmen, innovators, and universities, which is still not there in India. A healthy ecosystem allows individuals to take risks and rewards them for it, even if they fail. While there are green shoots in India, but as you and csaurabh have noted a lot of work still needs to be done.

As I have seen it, the 'baniyagiri' stems from the fact that these business folk want to get into areas that will essentially provide 'riskless' profit. They do this because of the feudal mindset where they are really averse to any sort of external financing and rather rely on familial wealth to start new ventures. If you are going to stake your family's money on a venture, you better succeed - so why go after any high-risk venture? Even after the feudal mindset has passed, the risk aversion stays, as does the penalty/stigma of failure (another unfortunate thing I have seen).

Anyway this is a digression for this thread. My last on this... all I wanted to say was that its also worthwhile bringing in some manufacturing technologies in a big way, especially those associated with nanofabrication. It will be critical if India wants to stay current with new technologies.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Suraj » 06 Jan 2021 22:42

The argument about 'bania mentality' needs to be backtested, so to speak. If you do that, it becomes clear that this isn't a chronic cultural failing. In the pre-industrial age when India was one of the top two economics, Indian textile technology and manufacturing capability enabled us to dominate trade for centuries. We didn't simply export fibre, but various kinds of clothing and garments - many of which bear Indian names to the present day, like calico, madras, and more. In the early industrial age, Indian elite families built heavy engineering businesses - Tata, Walchandnagar, and more.

Innovation today is a much more costly business in absolute and relative terms than it was a 100 years ago. This means any entity needs a longer runway before they have the fiscal ability to innovate significantly. This is demonstrated by the fact that progressively the Japanese (quite early), the Koreans (after a while) and Chinese (after decades) each took longer to start being really innovative economies. Until then, labour arbitrage and 'risk free profit' predominated. The Chinese still have a problem with organic innovation, with it being driven by state impetus. Left to their own devices they are banias just the same as us, perhaps more so.

The Indian economy has for quite some time been poorly organized. We've chronically run a trade deficit, which is strange for a low income high labour pool country. If we don't generate wealth from export gains consistently, it has to come from somewhere else. Given imports are not restricted but exports are stifled by poor policy, the end result is the kind of risk averse behavior focused on profit motive at the cost of innovation. Why innovate when it's quite literally better financial sense to import and amortise the costs.

Initiatives like Make in India and Atmanirbhar Bharat are trying to tackle this. It's a hard problem, and simply implementing a workable policy for export/production incentives takes several iterations. Some initiatives start off really well and then hit limits it can't overcome, e.g exports from SEZs grew strongly after the passage of the SEZ Act in 2006, then plateaued: http://sezindia.nic.in/cms/export-performances.php

Similarly, it took multiple iterations until a policy like PLI suddenly hit the right notes:
PLI scheme to spur manufacturing, may add $520 bn to GDP in 5 years: Report
PLI was originally for electronics contract manufacture, and the month after its announcement saw $17 billion in FDI - by a long distance the most ever received in a month. Q3 FDI data should indicate if this has continued.

India needs economic policy that makes imports harder, requires companies to JV locally and makes it economically sensible to localize technologies and build locally for consumption and export. This is something the governments of past have been historically weak at - multi-ministerial coordinated economic policymaking. It cannot be fixed overnight because accumulated past problems need to be undone.

Put the right incentive structure in place that doesn't quite literally make it more sensible to be a bania, and you'll see less of 'bania mentality'. After all, at the core we are talking about sensible people who are doing what the economic structure makes most sense to do.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Vips » 29 Jan 2021 05:32

World’s heaviest LC-MAX reactors flagged off.

In what is seen as a new milestone in the engineering world, the Heavy Engineering business of Larsen & Toubro (L&T) recently completed and flagged off the World’s Heaviest LC-Max Reactors ahead of schedule for Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Limited (HPCL).

Each reactor weighing 2313 MT will enable India’s first Residue Upgradation Facility (RUF) by HPCL’s Visakh Refinery to convert the heaviest oils to high-quality BS-VI diesel. It will also enable the facility to increase feedstock and improve product flexibility...

The reactors will sail in single-piece directly to Visakhapatnam from L&T’s coastal manufacturing facility located at Hazira in Gujarat.

SN Subrahmanyan, CEO & MD, L&T, said, “Our heavy engineering shops are the only ones in the country to have consistently dispatched the largest, heaviest, longest nd most complex process plant equipment to the global clients ahead of schedule. This track record remains unbroken in the unprecedented pandemic situation or otherwise.”

High-technology reactors and systems are used in refinery, O&G, petrochemical, fertilizer and nuclear power industries.

Image

kit
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby kit » 29 Jan 2021 15:44

titash wrote:. The US is where it is today because of the core competencies of Lockheed and General Electric, not because of Walt Disney and Facebook


Absolutely , because of them a whole ecosystem developed , right from tech centres of excellence to small suppliers ., quite a few started by ex employees !!

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby kit » 29 Jan 2021 15:48

chaitanya wrote: A healthy ecosystem allows individuals to take risks and rewards them for it, even if they fail. While there are green shoots in India, but as you and csaurabh have noted a lot of work still needs to be done.

all I wanted to say was that its also worthwhile bringing in some manufacturing technologies in a big way, especially those associated with nanofabrication. It will be critical if India wants to stay current with new technologies
.


These are probably the words any technocrat should be telling Modi !!

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby VinodTK » 05 Feb 2021 21:13

Tata Boeing to manufacture 737 vertical fin structures in Hyderabad

Hyderabad: Boeing announced the addition of a new production line at its joint venture, the Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited (TBAL) in Hyderabad, to manufacture complex vertical fin structures for the 737 family of airplanes. The expansion marks a significant milestone for the joint venture.
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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Feb 2021 03:18

Karnataka CM BS Yediyurappa says Tesla to set up electric car manufacturing unit

Tesla Inc will set up an electric car manufacturing unit in the southern Indian state of Karnataka, TV reports said on Saturday, citing Karnataka chief minister B.S. Yediyurappa.

Last month the company incorporated Tesla Motors India and Energy Private Limited with its registered office in the southern city of Bengaluru, a hub for several global technology companies.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Feb 2021 06:47

Nod to Rs 12,000-crore PLI scheme for telecom equipment

The Union Cabinet on Wednesday approved a Rs 12,195-crore production-linked incentive (PLI) scheme for telecom equipment manufacturing in the country, which like the one approved for mobile phones earlier, is designed to offer incentives to the chosen firms for incremental production over base year. Through such PLI schemes, the government is aiming to reduce imports, boost domestic production, increase employment and export competitiveness.

The scheme, which would be operational from April 1, would lead to incremental production of around Rs 2.4 lakh crore with exports of around Rs 2 lakh crore over five years. The scheme is expected to bring investment of over Rs 3,000 crore and generate huge direct and indirect employment and taxes both, an official statement said.

Telecom equipment which would get covered under the scheme, includes core transmission equipment, 4G/5G next generation radio access network and wireless equipment, access and customer premises equipment (CPE), Internet of things (IoT) access devices, other wireless equipment and enterprise equipment like switches, routers, etc.

Global companies which would qualify for the scheme are the likes of Ericsson, Nokia, etc, while domestic firms would be the state-owned ITI and a host of smaller players.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vinamr_s » 20 Feb 2021 14:56

chaitanya wrote:in modern times, you have people like Elon Musk who are in the same mold. There is no doubt that SpaceX helps further American sovereignty, but I doubt his intentions stem from furthering that.


What are his intentions with SpaceX? Just pure love with the work it is doing, and his ambitions? Because starting a rocket company might be one of the worst ways to try to get rich.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vinamr_s » 20 Feb 2021 15:38

csaurabh wrote:+1, 100%
I have started a manufacturing R&D company, 2 years running, some success . Tremendously challenging at every level.
Totally different from some % profit waala baniyagiri which is what most people understand the private sector to be. They don't associate private company with IP or R&D.

What do you think the government can do to make things easier for people like you? is it just naturally challenging, or does the regulations etc. also have a share to the challenge?

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 22 Feb 2021 12:53

vinamr_s wrote:
csaurabh wrote:+1, 100%
I have started a manufacturing R&D company, 2 years running, some success . Tremendously challenging at every level.
Totally different from some % profit waala baniyagiri which is what most people understand the private sector to be. They don't associate private company with IP or R&D.

What do you think the government can do to make things easier for people like you? is it just naturally challenging, or does the regulations etc. also have a share to the challenge?


Govt is doing what it can. Given its constraints I don't think it can do much better.

One thing I would really appreciate if they can do it, is to build a proper database of technology developers in the country. As in the companies which do their own R&D , not just assembly or supply of foreign products.
I think they tried to do one called Tech Sagar. But the problem with that one was that they didn't differentiate between original makers and suppliers/assembly companies. So if you import a CO2 laser from China and supply it, you are counted as a manufacturer!
There needs to be a database where companies can make claims that they are making indigenous products and these claims should be checked up. And if there are no manufacturers of (say) CO2 lasers in this country, that fact should also be recorded.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vinamr_s » 22 Feb 2021 17:18

csaurabh wrote:Govt is doing what it can. Given its constraints I don't think it can do much better.


What constraints -- fundamental features of the setup as a whole or what? Pls elaborate if you can

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby csaurabh » 23 Feb 2021 17:07

vinamr_s wrote:
csaurabh wrote:Govt is doing what it can. Given its constraints I don't think it can do much better.


What constraints -- fundamental features of the setup as a whole or what? Pls elaborate if you can


Lethargy. Bureaucratic attitudes. No long term vision. Laziness. I'm sure we are aware of what the government sector is like.
We may have gone quite a bit forward from the paan chewing babus pushing files, but it is not like a first world country.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby tandav » 23 Feb 2021 20:58

In Chemical Industries there are production quotas based on your environmental norms : for example you have license from the PCBs wherein you can discharge upto 50KL per month of effluent after the factory internal treatment meeting a certain quality standard. If you want to increase production you have to get permission from PCB. In case the industry invests in a better treatment system and reduces the effluent generated you cannot automatically produce more product unless you get a license for higher production... The entire process of getting increased production permissions is very opaque and every industrial entity is trying many creative and underhand methods to increase production.

Closure notices are issued willy nilly most for personal benefit of the PCB officials and industries struggles to meet norms. There is no collaborative approach to solving problems and increasing production etc. Govt is a hinderance to industry rather than a partner... the taxation is adverse and no facilities are given. The cross subsidization of industry to support a very large number of non tax paying population is holding the industries back.

It is very very difficult to run small businesses and there are massive tax, legal, environmental, HR, political compliances all of which are opaque and pretty much makes running a company a massive headache. Each issue drains the energies of entrepreneur... who is running around the bureacracy rather than trying to do business.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby nam » 23 Feb 2021 21:50

This is the reason why commie countries like China & Vietnam are favorites for manufacturing. The companies have to deal with only the local Commie overload and every law is taken care of.

No noise on environment damage, no labour union nothing. US & Europe turns a blind eye, as long as the products are cheap.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby tandav » 24 Feb 2021 09:14

nam wrote:This is the reason why commie countries like China & Vietnam are favorites for manufacturing. The companies have to deal with only the local Commie overload and every law is taken care of.

No noise on environment damage, no labour union nothing. US & Europe turns a blind eye, as long as the products are cheap.


Far better to deal with 1 overlord than 30 overlords in your area of operations. Atleast then you know who it is and what needs to be done to keep them happy. In India there are 20 such overlords and each demanding pound of flesh. Everyone from central govt, state govt, city officials, local mla, corporator, street goons, courts, tax authorities, police, local busybodies all want a slice of your hard work and money.

Its not like with all these rent seekers we are getting superior services.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2021 04:31

Apparently GoI had announced a contest to create devices based on our own RISC based processor in Aug 2020: Shakti (IIT Madras) & Vega (C-DAC 4 core).

Shakti has a Intel fabricated one at 20nm, while SCL fabricated is at 180nm. The only way to make it mainstream, is for GoI to force these processors on to the devices sold in India.

Hope they are made mandatory to learn about these processors in colleges. Need lot of kids knowing about these processors to kick off the hardware revolution.

The processors are open sourced.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby durairaaj » 25 Feb 2021 05:57

vinamr_s wrote: What do you think the government can do to make things easier for people like you? is it just naturally challenging, or does the regulations etc. also have a share to the challenge?

In addition to the suggestions already made, one more factor at play is all the major private companies are competing against each other vigorously.

This leads to quick fixes by importing from other countries. When there is a posssibility of developing a local ecosystem, these private companies go for importing a competing solution at a cheaper rate through screwdriver giri. If one player acquires locally, the other player goes for importing.

The government should play an invisible hand approach should encourage some form of cooperation in non essential part of business. In Korea, the companies that are competing in same business encourage a local smaller niche player to develop a technology instead of importing a readymade solution from abroad. The competing companies use the tech. developed but differentiate themselves in the final product developed. Samsung, SK and LG compete in li ion cell manufacturing. They all buy material and processing machines from the same companies. Similar cases in LCD panels, semiconductors.

Example 1: In India Many companies are importing lithium ion cells for EVs, Energy storage, etc... The Govt should encourage formation of consortium to develop Li ion cells manufacturing. Encourage them to form a cell manufacturing alliance.

Example 2: There are many small players importing solar cells and making panels. The govt is asking all the big public sector enterprises to invest in solar electricity generation. Every year they are giving piecemeal order of few 100 MW. Instead if they are asked to buy from a particular consortium that can make big investment to make cell and distribute it to small palyers who make panels, we can keep both types of players in business. The money spent by PSUs in Solar electricity will stay within borders.

Example3: The recent wheeled armour platform acquisition (IMPORT) from Kalyani (ISRAEL). There are competing platforms under development for the past 10 years from Mahindra, Tata, etc... But still instead of providing constructive advice the local products are sent to multiple trials.

Example 4: Competition with Jio almost destroyed all of the other telecom players. Instead the remaining players shall invest in fostering tech. development. (Now Jio rebadges tech. developed by somebody else as Made in India 5G solution)
GoI role shall include encouraging healthy competition with co-existence and co-development of technology instead of extreme competition.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby vinamr_s » 25 Feb 2021 20:54

durairaaj wrote:
The government should play an invisible hand approach should encourage some form of cooperation in non essential part of business.



Here, and in other examples you have used to illustrate Indian companies importing various systems, the theme of your suggestion is that govt should "encourage companies to develop locally. What kind of encouragement are you talking about specifically? I mean, what policies will qualify for ecouragement to develop locally and/or discourage imports?

====

Just like India increased import duties on fully assembled products in the past which gave rise to local assembling units, do you think increasing import duties on sub system level components would qualify for such an "encouragement"?

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby durairaaj » 26 Feb 2021 09:25

^
PLI scheme is one of the some of the good initial steps.
These steps are not capital intensive but can generate jobs easily.

I am not suggesting we should focus only local tech. development. Japan, Korea and China developed because they encouraged collaboration with foreign tech. companies by local entities and slowly localized the production and tech. development chain.

So, what more can be done:
1) Providing Larger goal/direction: Kirloskar group chairman mentioned to PM Modi that govt should tell private enterprises, which technology are needed and assign some entities to invest and assure the companies of consistent future business. But such practices are still not done. For example, we are building tunnels for metro and Border roads, etc... But, no tunnel boring machine is being made in India. Every thing is imported from China. We have been boring tunnels since the first metro. Its volume requirement is only going to increase. But, still no action in encouraging, some engineering majors to set up manufacturing plant with a foreign collaborator.
The essence of my suggestion is for the govt. to encourage few big privae entities (like Chaebol in S.Korea) in specific business streams to invest big and provide sufficient business to sustain and develop technology instant of destructive competition that undercut each other.
When Northvolt is building Li ion cell manufacturing the EU is supporting them.

2) Help with sustenance: If it encouraged investment with private partnership, it should also provide sufficient business to the entity to survive. L&T and NPCIL(20% minority stake) invested in forgings for boiler vessels. It has been so many years the unit is loss making, now L&T wants to sell it move on. The huge investment is a waste. If govt. could not provide sufficient business to the entity, it should encourage other local companies to use the service of the forging business.
another eg: L&T invested so much money in submarine and naval vessel building and are doing very efficiently. But, year after year the business is going to inefficient artifical profit making PSUs.

3) Encourage knowledge development: The scope of corporate social responsibility should include or be changed to Knowledge development and human resource development. Government is funding most IITs and IISc with the money it earned from taxes. Instead if it asks the corporate to invest in tech. development with the universities and IITs the companies can fund for the specific tech. development, start ups or evaluation of competing technologies and gain trained man power with specific subject knowledge for their growth. (Many startup are developing tech. that complement larger automobile companies in India. If the big companies sponsor some of the tech. development they could imbibe the technologies are man power. But, they the big companies are importing these technologies.) There is an inefficient fund utilization in the present circuitous route of companies_tax->govt->MHRD->Colleges. If CSR include knowledge development the companies know which tech. it needs for future growth. companies->Colleges can encourage its development. There needs to be a strong industry academia collaboration as in US, EU and Korea. In EU, all new tech. development is being done by academia. The industry simply commercializes them. The new approach will drain the resource going into funding JNU types.

Some of the tech. where we need huge investment:
1) Si boule making, wafering, Solar cell making, semi conductor chip making
2) tunnel boring machine, pumps and valves
3) high tech. ceramics, metallurgy, coatings
4) synthetics fibres, nano materials
5) Li ion cells

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby durairaaj » 26 Feb 2021 11:02

india-is-losing-over-rs-150cr-a-year-to-human-hair-smuggling
See the amount of raw hair we are exporting. The government shall prevent these kind of resource leakage. Encourage downstream industries instead of exportingraw materials. Encourage academic institutions to focus research and technology transfer activities.
Decrease the cost of marketing such processed materials.

In India it is profitable to export raw materials such as iron ore than exporting processed materials.

The current tax regime for manufacturing is not making sense. It penalizes disincentivizes manufacturers and processing industries through tax and non-tax measures such as licensing, environmental regulations, etc...

All B2B GST on manufacturing or processing shall be made an uniform 5% flat tax. Increase the tax at consumer side.
Decrease the cost of energy to manufacturers. Right now, farmers are paying nill and consumers are paying low price. But GDP generated per kWhr electricity consumed by them is much less than the kWhr consumed by industries.

Focus on efficient transmission of '4M's. (Man, Material, Method&Machine, Money)
M1 Man: Increase the technical skill for all 11th grade and 12th grade.Some ITI level technical trade such as (machining, electrical, plumbing, building, tailoring, shall be learned by all of the students. Even arts students have to learn). Simple labour regulations.

M2 Material: Prevent raw material leakage without downstream processing, optimally charge for energy, enhance efficient transmission of energy and raw material through infra structure development.

M3 Method & Machine: Knowledge development by corporate entities focused on particular stream through academia. Encourage large companies to collaborate and develop knowhow and if not available locally get it from other countries and help them to sustain and grow the tech. base.
M4 Money: Decrease interest cost and tax cost for manufacturing.

The Modi 2 government is already doing some of the things. I wish it be even faster.

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Re: Indian Manufacturing Sector

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Feb 2021 04:22

Modi govt has been quietly following the idea of Aatmanirbharta for the past seven years

During the peak Covid period in May last year, Swedish automotive safety equipment supplier, Autoliv, was scouting for a land parcel of 50-60 acres to build a new manufacturing facility for airbag inflators.

Executives in Invest India, an investment facilitation agency under the Union Ministry of Commerce and Industry, proposed five sites to the company — three in Tamil Nadu and two in Andhra Pradesh. Finally, after multiple site visits, in September the company zeroed in on a 50-acre site at Cheyyar (or Tiruvetipuram) in Tiruvannamalai, Tamil Nadu.

Neeraj Mittal, MD and CEO of the Tamil Nadu Industrial Guidance and Export Promotion Bureau, told ET Magazine that Autoliv would invest about Rs 100 crore for this venture. Invest India CEO Deepak Bagla adds, “If a global company prefers India over China or Vietnam, it simply reinforces the India story.”

Autoliv’s foray into India for making airbag inflators, both for domestic market and export, is a classic example of Make in India. But the government’s manufacturing policy, as it stands today, has gone beyond inviting multinationals to set up factories in India.


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