Infrastructure News & Discussion

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby rachel » 19 Jul 2009 01:03

ravi_ku wrote:
rachel wrote:Subways are Infrastructure, so I guess I can ask this question here.

I love Delhi Metro, except I was shocked on their website.. they say trains arrive every 8 mins peak, every 12 mins non-peak.

Why so infrequent? In Toronto, every 5-6 mns off-peak, and peak is every 130 secs.

And even that is considered not good enough, they are thinking of putting in Automated Train Operation to increase frequencies to about 1.5 minutes for rush hours.

Does DMRC not have enough trains? Why so infrequent?

rachel, cost. With more than 5 min difference, there can be some amount of manual backup. If you reduce that, you cannot use manual backups.

Also delhi metro has not been completely built. There are only 1-2 lines running now. and why should we compare with others? If you are in delhi, just go to a metro station. Are you observing so much rush that even if you are on platform, you cant get on the train. Is this the case? If so, I agree with you. If not, the money can be better spent.



Thx Ravi. You may be right that the traffic simply does not warrant more trains. I dont know why that would be so ..

The reason I am comparing with some other systems is that Delhi's subway is already bigger than many.

For instance, Toronto has 3 or 4 lines (depending on how you count) with a total of 70km. Delhi has three lines with 75 km .

I think this situation will improve with Phase 2. The number of coaches is to be doubled. I dont live in Delhi so I cannot tell what the demand and traffic is like.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 19 Jul 2009 01:17

DMRC passenger traffic will vastly increase once the Phase 2 is done. The reason is not just the extra route length, but the connectivity between crucial and/or untapped areas. Currently, the traffic is ~900,000 passengers/day, or about 330M pax/year. I would not be surprised if this increases 3-5x once the phase 2 is complete. That would put DMRC among the big league among most traffic metros. Tokyo, Moscow and Seoul have about 2.5-3 billion passengers/year.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby rachel » 19 Jul 2009 01:18

Expanding on this and doing a bit of research, Toronto has a total of 700 coaches, while Delhi has 280 now. Within a year, Delhi will add 600 coaches, for a total of 880.

So Toronto's 70 km will be served by 700 coaches, while Delhi's 190km will have 880.

Each Delhi coach can carry approx 400 passengers.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby rachel » 19 Jul 2009 01:20

Suraj wrote:DMRC passenger traffic will vastly increase once the Phase 2 is done. The reason is not just the extra route length, but the connectivity between crucial and/or untapped areas. Currently, the traffic is ~900,000 passengers/day, or about 330M pax/year. I would not be surprised if this increases 3-5x once the phase 2 is complete. That would put DMRC among the big league among most traffic metros. Tokyo, Moscow and Seoul have about 2.5-3 billion passengers/year.



Yes you are right. It is a 'system' which means linkages between various lines and interconnections with bus routes would be important in boosting traffic.

I'm very eagerly awaiting expansion to 190 km.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 20 Jul 2009 21:42

Skill worker shortage issue.....

I meant to talk about the larger issue not only the linked article. Skilled technical worker (pipe benders, welders etc) shortage has nothing to do with IT industry but shortage of engineering talent in other sector of economy is an unintended side affect of IT rush. L&T CEO was letting go several good bankable projects in Middle East just because he didn't have midlevel technical managers, designers and architects. Also he was having hard time keeping the ones he had because he couldn’t afford to pay what IT companies were paying with their 3 to 5X profit margins. So these are two separate but equally important issues-

Technical workers - System's failure to train enough people to do these jobs but this is fixable issue since companies can train workers on job and large pool of citizens are available that can take up these job with onsite/on-job training.

Shortage of good engineers - This is a much bigger issue and needs to be fixed by govt policies and sobering up of IT rush. These days’ students that can't get into computer engineering are the ones that take up mechanical, civil and chemical engineering. Most of them would switch to software anyhow after their graduation. In my batch of 60 undergrad students in EE, almost everyone is a software engineer now a day except yours truly and a couple of others. I wonder who would run and design power plants, roads, bridges, office complexes, railway, telecom etc of India if everyone becomes a software engineers. On top of that the ones that are left in these hardcore engineering fields are probably not best of the lot.

Increasing throughput of the engineering education system to produce more high quality engineers than IT industry can absorb is the only way out.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 20 Jul 2009 21:56

Katare wrote:Increasing throughput of the engineering education system to produce more high quality engineers than IT industry can absorb is the only way out.


This alone will not solve it. People head to the IT industry regardless of their qualifications because it pays them more. People working outside the IT industry simply need to be paid more - in some cases many multiples more - to attract good talent.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 20 Jul 2009 22:40

vera,

Read the post again, core industries work on less than 10% profit margins while IT companies, at least until recently, earn 30% PAT. They can't pay similar salaries neither can thay provide similar work environment with foreign tour of duties included etc. if salaries in core industries keeps going up than a lot of projects would become unfeasible, like DMRC contracts of Rs120 corer or less.

IT is a good profitable business and good employment so system must produce enough good quality graduates so that after IT take it cut we still have enough good quality engineering talent left for core/construction industry to choose from. If supply is more than demand salaries would stabalise for all industries including IT.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 21 Jul 2009 07:59

Katare wrote:Read the post again, core industries work on less than 10% profit margins while IT companies, at least until recently, earn 30% PAT.


The core industries need to charge more for their projects.

Katare wrote:They can't pay similar salaries neither can thay provide similar work environment with foreign tour of duties included etc. if salaries in core industries keeps going up than a lot of projects would become unfeasible, like DMRC contracts of Rs120 corer or less.


The projects would cost more, but that can't be helped if the companies want to keep their employees happy and have a supply of talent. Foreign tours not as commonly available as in IT, but they are not entirely unknown either for companies like L&T that have done work in West Asia and Russia.

IT is a good profitable business and good employment so system must produce enough good quality graduates so that after IT take it cut we still have enough good quality engineering talent left for core/construction industry to choose from. If supply is more than demand salaries would stabalise for all industries including IT.


Even if people are trained in the field, they will leave the field for IT, government, law, MBA, USA for MS/PHd and what not unless the salary issues are fixed.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 21 Jul 2009 21:22

It is not merely salary Vera ji, it is more "quality of life". I have heard this line a number of times from a number of Indians who have migrated to the US. Once that is fixed may be we will have more reverse brain drain

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 21 Jul 2009 23:20

vera,

Can't charge more for projects. More you charge less number of projects would be financially viable that way you'll take your industry into recession or at least you'll stunt the potential for growth.

IT salaries (and their profits and growth) in India were/are an anamoly ( not an standard) which caused some good changes and some bad ones too. Time to move on!

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 20 Aug 2009 11:45


Y I Patel
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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 22 Aug 2009 10:31

BRF Jingos are asleep at the switch!!

How come no one noticed this? What are all the youngsters doing nowadays, if an old fart like me has to post an old but important piece of news????

Important Milstone for Banihal Railway Tunnel


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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 29 Aug 2009 23:50

The largest engineering/construction company of India, L&T, is winning $2+billion of contracts per month. Massive investment is flowing in the infra sector....

L&T expects orders worth Rs 10,000 cr

Engineering giant Larsen & Toubro (L&T) is expecting orders worth Rs 10,000 crore from power, infrastructure and hydrocarbon sectors within a month. L&T, which bagged orders worth over Rs 11,000 crore in August, anticipates that the total order backlog will touch Rs 90,000 crore by the end of September.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 07 Sep 2009 23:46

Seems construction sector is picking pace. Domestic steel production needs quantum jump in production to meet domestic demand, we import huge quantities of finished steel while exporting huge quantities of world class iron ore.

Tata Steel August sales up 25%

SAIL, Tata Steel hike prices; others likely to follow

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby rachel » 08 Sep 2009 01:36

We import finished steel while the first and fifth largest steel makers in the world are Indian??<Mittal at number 1, Tata Steel at number 5>

I guess most of Mittal's production is outside India, while with Tata buying Corus, a big part of Tata's is also outside.

So by 'importing finished steel', is most of this produced at Mittal and Tata mills overseas?

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 08 Sep 2009 05:06

Nope, and doesn't matter anyhow. Mostly coming from China I suspect.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2009 05:28

Katare wrote:Skill worker shortage issue.....
...........

Technical workers - System's failure to train enough people to do these jobs but this is fixable issue since companies can train workers on job and large pool of citizens are available that can take up these job with onsite/on-job training.
.............

Increasing throughput of the engineering education system to produce more high quality engineers than IT industry can absorb is the only way out.

old post but responding now.

they should look at hiring more engn diploma holders, they will need more training but will work for the existing salary or even lower. and they will certainly not run away to do MBA.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 Sep 2009 07:46

they should look at hiring more engn diploma holders, they will need more training but will work for the existing salary or even lower. and they will certainly not run away to do MBA.


Very true.

I now hear that top tier IT firms like Wipro prefer to hire and train BSc holders to BTech ones - lower avg labor costs, higher retention, comparable output/productivity and overall higher ROI.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2009 13:40

posco is supposed to make cheapest steel in world. the chinese baosteel using their usual 'methods' of cost cutting should be competitive too.

steel covers a wide area from warship steel, submarine steel to pots-n-pans.

SAIL had to make special efforts to deliver the steel for ADS when Rus supply didnt emerge. We dont make submarine quality steel to my knowledge. even aerospace aluminium and car body steels were not made here until few yrs ago.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 10 Sep 2009 00:19

IIRC we import 8-10MT of steel while we produce ~40MT. As such I have nothing against importing but the steel trade is a bit too unbalanced because we produce so little and export even less. With high quality raw material available that to as captive mines (both coal and ore) and captive power generation, I have hard time understanding why even private sector is so constrained in annual growth.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Sep 2009 00:52

The IBEF website has a summary of Indian steel industry: link. I don't know how much they archive it, so I'll post the important parts:
The Indian steel industry entered into a new development stage from 2005–06, resulting in India becoming the 5th largest producer of steel globally. Producing about 53 million tonnes (MT) of steel a year, today India accounts for a little over 7 per cent of the world's total production.

India is the only country worldover to post a positive overall growth in crude steel production at 1.01 per cent for the January-March period of 2009. The recovery in steel production has been aided by the improved sales performance of steel companies. The steel sector grew by 5.3 per cent in May 2009.

Production

Steel production grew at 1.2 per cent in the January-March quarter of 2008-09 over the same period last year. The fourth quarter saw most of the large steel companies such as SAIL, Tata Steel, Essar and JSW operating at full capacity.

The National Steel Policy has a target for taking steel production up to 110 MT by 2019–20. Nonetheless, with the current rate of ongoing greenfield and brownfield projects, the Ministry of Steel has projected India's steel capacity is expected to touch 124.06 MT by 2011–12. In fact, based on the status of Memoranda of Understanding (MOUs) signed by the private producers with the various state governments, India's steel capacity is likely to be 293 MT by 2020.

In the first 10 months of 2008-09, India's steel production went up to 46.8 MT up by 1.1 per cent from last year.

Consumption

India accounts for around 5 per cent of the global steel consumption. Almost 70 per cent of the total steel used is for kitchenware. However, its use in railway coaches, wagons, airports, hotels and retail stores is growing immensely. Steel consumption grew at 5.2 per cent during the first quarter of 2009-10 as against 3.8 per cent in the January-March quarter last year.

A Credit Suisse Group study states that India's steel consumption will continue to grow by 16 per cent annually till 2012, fuelled by demand for construction projects worth US$ 1 trillion.

The World Steel Association has forecast a 2 per cent growth in the country's steel consumption in 2009, making it the only major economy to post an increase in a year that will see global consumption of the metal fall by around 15 per cent. India is expected to consume 53.5 MT of steel in 2009.

Steel players like JSW Steel and Essar Steel are increasing their focus on opening up more retail outlets pan India with growth in domestic demand. JSW Steel currently has 50 such steel retail outlets called JSW Shoppe and is targetting to increase it to 200 by March 2010. They expect at least 10-15 per cent of their total production to be sold by their retail outlets.

Essar Steel also has 150 such retail outlets of which 65 are hypermarts across India with the latest one being opened in Orissa.

Exports

Out of India’s annual iron ore production of more than 200 MT, about 50 per cent is exported.

Iron ore exports increased 17 per cent to 12.6 MT in February 2009 from 10.8 MT in the same month a year ago, owing to a moderate revival in demand from Chinese steel producers, as per the latest data compiled by a group of top Indian mining firms.

Earlier, according to a study, with the rise in demand for steel in China, India’s iron ore exports went up by 38 per cent to reach 13.6 MT in December 2008 against 9.8 MT in December 2007. Around 50-60 per cent of India’s iron ore is exported to China.

India’s exports during April-December 2008 were 64.4 MT. The government has reduced export duty on iron ore lumps from 15 per cent to 5 per cent, which has given a further fillip to exports. Further, the reduction in railway freight has also benefitted the domestic iron ore miners.

Investments

A host of steel companies have lined up major investment proposals. Furthermore, with an expanding consumer market, the Indian steel industry is likely to receive huge domestic and foreign investments.

According to the Investment Commission of India investments of over US$ 30 billion in steel are in the pipeline over the next 5 years.
* Arcelor-Mittal, the largest steel maker of the world, is planning to set up a captive port near Paradip in Orissa. The port will be used to serve two mega integrated steel plants of the company proposed in Orissa and Jharkhand.
* Tata Steel has raised US$ 500 million by issuing 'global depository receipts' (GDRs) aiming at expansion of its Jamshedpur plant and overseas mining projects.
* Japanese steel major, Kobe Steel, has decided set up a subsidiary in Kolkata to market its steel production machinery in India.
* Steel companies have committed US$ 122.50 million for setting up sponge iron units in Koppal and Bellary in Karnataka.
* SAIL will invest US$ 724.12 million to set up a 4-million tonne per annum steel mill at its Bhilai Steel Plant.

Government Initiative

Subsequent to the recent fall in international prices of commodities and to protect Indian producers, the Indian government has announced some changes in customs duty rates, which were effective from November 2008.

The government has removed full exemption of customs duty on some industrial and agricultural commodities. Iron and steel products like pig iron, spiegeleisen, semi-finished products, flat products and long products are now subject to a basic custom duty of 5 per cent ad valorem.

The Indian government plans to invest over US$ 350 billion in industries related to infrastructure and construction which will give a fillip to the steel sector.

Moreover, in the Union Budget 2009-10, the government has made a 23 per cent hike in allocation for highway development and US$ 1.034 billion increase in budgetary support to Railways which will further promote the steel industry.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby manish » 10 Sep 2009 01:09

Katare wrote:IIRC we import 8-10MT of steel while we produce ~40MT. As such I have nothing against importing but the steel trade is a bit too unbalanced because we produce so little and export even less. With high quality raw material available that to as captive mines (both coal and ore) and captive power generation, I have hard time understanding why even private sector is so constrained in annual growth.

Things are in the pipeline for the near future itself, even discounting the 'planned' ones like Posco/ArcelorMittal etc that are stuck/delayed due to various reasons. Essar Steel alone is in line to double its India capacity to close to 10 MT by March 2010, from existing 4.5 MT or so.
Also the recent ArcelorMittal investment into Uttam Galva and Essar's buyout of Shree Pre-Coated also may result in some investment into their facilities. These expansions are far easier to implement than some of the larger greenfield ones that encounter protests and other obstacles.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 11 Sep 2009 23:22

Also Tata Steel, Jindal and SAIL have substantial expansion plans which will all come on stream in 2012.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 25 Sep 2009 15:25

There is some progress on Ahmedabad - Mumbai - Pune Bullet train project. The feasibility study by German company is over and submitted to GoI and if the project is given go ahead by Railway Minister, the project can be finished in 3 years and budget of $10 billion. It will reduce 11 hour journey from Ahmedabad to pune to 2 hours and to Mumbai it will be around 1 hr and 35 minutes. I hope they will move it fast. I also believe that govt. should look to carry out such feasibility study between Pune and Bangalore too.
Last edited by ashish raval on 26 Sep 2009 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 26 Sep 2009 00:49

ashish raval wrote:There is some progress on Ahmedabad - Mumbai - Pune Bullet train project. The feasibility study by German company is over and submitted to GoI and if the project is given go ahead by Railway Minister, the project can be finished in 3 years and budget of $1 billion. It will reduce 11 hour journey from Ahmedabad to pune to 2 hours and to Mumbai it will be around 1 hr and 35 minutes. I hope they will move it fast. I also believe that govt. should look to carry out such feasibility study between Pune and Bangalore too.


Source?

I doubt it can be done in only 1 billion bucks or 3 years!

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 26 Sep 2009 02:33

I remember reading (when the railway ministry initially started flying kites about this project) that it would cost minimum 40 crores per km just to upgrade the tracks to make it fit for trains to run at 300 kms per hour.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 26 Sep 2009 12:47

^^Vipul and Katare, this is old but the link is below. Apparently it was reported in a Gujarati daily that feasibility report have been submitted to Railway Ministry and the sum quoted was between $10-10.1 billion. Apologies for quoting $1 billion above (Lost in translation).

http://indien.ahk.de/en/menu2/news-and-info/indo-german-economic-news/india-germany-partners-in-progress/february-2009/


Railways shortlists German company for bullet train project

The Political and Business Daily, New Delhi, Feb 12, 2009



The Railway Ministry has short-listed a German company, Sistra, to prepare a report on the feasibility of running a bullet train which will run at 300 kms per hour on the Pune-Mumbai-Ahmedabad route.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby tejas » 26 Sep 2009 19:23

$ 10 billion :shock: . How can such a venture be viable with populist ticket prices in India?

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 26 Sep 2009 20:42

Just one third to one half of that amount would enable the fruition of Mumbai Metro system enabling millions of people to commute in dignity. 10 Billion $ is too huge a figure to spend for a system that would be used at the most by 20-30,000 people daily.
It would be impossible to operate the Bullet Tain on the present corridors in the Mumbai metropolitan region as the Tracks need to be fenced off to ensure intrusion free operation of high speed services.So the way the Bullet train would operate(if at all) is to go normal speed upto Virar/Kalyan and then go high speed.
There is no space for an additional corridor in the MMR. The Railways would simply go Bankrupt if it tries to acquire space in MMR for addtional corridor.Not to speak of years of delay due to litigation by thousands of PAP's.
Also unless the japanese govt funds the project or Mahrashtra/Gujarat govts undertake 100% financing of the project it would be interesting to see how the Delhi centric babus would approve this project.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 30 Sep 2009 14:24

^^ valid point Vipul. Most countries developed bullet trains only after they had good local transportation infrastructure to get people across.


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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 02 Oct 2009 13:04

^^ good company. I have used their services in Milan. Excellent metro services.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 04 Oct 2009 01:54

Vipul wrote:It would be impossible to operate the Bullet Tain on the present corridors in the Mumbai metropolitan region as the Tracks need to be fenced off to ensure intrusion free operation of high speed services.So the way the Bullet train would operate(if at all) is to go normal speed upto Virar/Kalyan and then go high speed.
There is no space for an additional corridor in the MMR.


The train doesn't have to pass through Mumbai proper if they take a route that bypasses most of the city but includes a halt at a peripheral location.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 04 Oct 2009 02:00

Meaning operating the service from a palce which would be atleast 50-75 Kms away from the Main terminus?
I doubt any of the high ticket price payers would relish the thought of changing modes of transport after alighting to/embarking from so far way from the city center. More so when their next leg/preceding leg of the journey would be either on dilapidated trains or on traffic choked highways.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 04 Oct 2009 04:31

It's not as if they would have an option, because getting to the airport through city traffic would take a similar amount of time. They would still save the time spent going through security at the airport.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Nihat » 04 Oct 2009 21:36

Image

Hindustan Times

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Oct 2009 07:59

Sam Pitroda of C-DOT fame, has a newest job:
Pitroda appointed advisor to PM on infrastructure
IT czar Sam Pitroda has been appointed advisor to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on infrastructure, innovation and information. Pitroda, who was appointed to the new post yesterday, will have the rank of a Cabinet Minister.

Besides being the chairman of the high-profile National Knowledge Commission (NKC), he will now advise Singh on integrating information communication technology (ICT) in the sectors of infrastructure, health, justice and information.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Oct 2009 00:43

Now here's a very interesting piece of news. Kudos to the people who did this. It is ridiculous that every interchange and flyover needs some poobah to come and inaugurate it.
Tired of waiting for VIP, people inaugurate flyover themselves
The new Rao Tularam Marg-Palam flyover has been ready for almost two weeks now, but till Monday, it was not open to the public.

Traffic jams, chaos on the streets and heartburn for the common man meant nothing to the authorities and the construction company heads, who were not willing to open the flyover for public use till a VIP came to inaugurate it.

However, that was till Monday evening — till people's patience wore thin and they decided to take matters in their own hands.

Taking the initiative, a crowd of over 100 people got together, chanted shlokas, performed a small puja, broke coconuts and cut a ribbon, inaugurating the flyover for their own use.

People said that they had been tired of the congestion that was being caused simply because the flyover was not being open for public use — the people for whom it was actually made.

A similar inicident had taken place in Goa in 1983, when super cop Kiran Bedi had insisted that the Zuari bridge — which was to be inaugurated by then prime minister Indira Gandhi — be opened for public use, to ease the congestion. She took the step after Indira Gandhi cancelled her visit to open the bridge four times.

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Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion

Postby Krishna_V » 10 Oct 2009 03:36

PM says river link on

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/hyderaba ... r-link-300

Not sure if this is the right place to post..


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