Indian Real Estate Sector

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Jul 2012 14:39

hnair wrote:Strong Indian realty player >>> MNC realty players with subsidiaries >>> Sheikh

The first two has unique strengths (sense of market and nimbleness around Indian policy shenanigans vs wider capital raising potential), but the last one is riskiest.

I've dealt with the third kind (not Sheikhs per se but Arabs) in the Smart City Project...there could not be more dumb and clueless people. The sharpest tools in the box were the South Korean guys in their team; very smart, well read, good exposure to commercial real estate and about only one who made sense. They were the only one who understood what we're trying to convey. They knew that the project was nonviable from the day one...most of them were in it for good pay and perks.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Jul 2012 14:40

hnair wrote:rohitvats-saar, send mail to moi at <SNIP>

You've mail.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Jul 2012 01:51

Is it possible that the Arabs/Sheiks are not looking at viability in the short term, but just wants to park their money in such projects in India. They have much larger non viable projects in the gulf, so this will come across as even less riskier to them.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Jul 2012 01:56

vina, the reforms actually started much before the commie movements in an unintended way in Kerala. The Namboodiri sambandhams with lower castes which made everyone more acceptable across the artificial barriers with time. It was considered an evil practice in old times, but I feel it molded even Namboodiri opinion to empathize. Maybe that is what is missing in TN's social history and the barriers seem insurmountable.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 17 Jul 2012 02:54

Bade-saar, regarding your question on Sheikhs, there are some who are genuine investors, who want to make money out of the Indian boom. And then there are some who are like Srinivasan's legendary character in "Akkare ninnoru maaran", who maalishes the local "Achyut maamas" on behalf of others.... if you get what I mean

I believe rohitvats-saar came across the latter.

And, ayyayyo...ayyo... namboothiris again? what saarey?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Jul 2012 03:01

Why saar, big front lobes and high EQ (not IQ) have other claimants too.

We should get the Chinese to build us some of the Mongolian/Angola replicas to solve our cannot build cheaply only problem. I am not averse to idle money from Gelf being put to use. Marketability is the problem of the investor onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jul 2012 02:00

trying to fish out all legal aspects here for having a property in desh.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... l-property

I hope this is the latest, and if anyone has the latest and greatest regulations please to link it here.

1. deemed income [pay desh].

Remember that even if you have inherited a property in India and that is not your only property, you would have to pay tax on deemed income.

so, NRIs to take note of this.

2. investment property [pay unkill]
Other than certain benefits here, you might incur loss on:

"If you do not show this investment property, the problem will arise at the time of sale of property. Suppose you sell a property on which you had no rental income for US tax purposes but had deemed income as per India Tax code, then the amount spent on the maintenance, repairs and renovations and depreciation on this property which may be eligible for deduction or addition to your cost basis while calculating capital gains would become difficult to establish. However, if you have not declared the property in your tax returns, the US tax code may challenge the cost basis (purchase + improvements + suspended losses)to claim a tax deduction at the time of sale,"

"Of course, any investment properties with rental income and related expenses must be reported on Form Schedule E in the US tax returns and rental activities by nature are always treated as 'passive' investments with restrictions on deductibility of the net rental losses.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 11 Oct 2012 07:52

Tamil Nadu’s land grab stories revived by Vadra allegations

Tamil Nadu is a brilliant example of how far things have gone. Since the Jayalalithaa government came to power in mid-2011, a large number of former ministers and MLAs, including the former deputy chief minister and DMK chief’s son MK Stalin, have been charged with land-grab cases.

DMK heavyweights and former ministers such as KN Nehru, Veerapandi Arumugam, NKKP Raja, Pongalur Palanisamy and K Ponmudi were among those arrested. All of them spent several weeks in jail.

A few days ago, Ponmudi, who had spent more than 80 days in jail on landgrab charges, was booked again for illegal sand quarrying.

Land grab was one of the top issues during Jayalalithaa’s election campaigns. She had promised tough action if she came back to power. As soon as she assumed office, the government began its crackdown. For several months since then, there was at least one high profile land grab story a day. The trickle still continues.

Land grab has topped all crimes in the state with complaints and allegations still pouring in. According to the policy note of the home department of Tamil Nadu government, the “anti land grabbing cells” that it established have received more than 34,000 complaints across the state.

The government established 39 anti land grab cells, one each for each district and one each with each police commissioner; and 25 fast track courts for the quick disposal of cases.

The highest number of cases have been registered in Chennai, which commands the highest real estate prices in the state, followed by Kancheepuram, which is home to the booming IT corridor. There were 168 cases registered in Chennai followed by 114 in Kancheepuram.

The government has so far restored more than 1,300 acres of land. However, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of acres of land “acquired” by various politician-mafia combos from farmers and poor villagers are unlikely to be restored unless there is change of law.

Most of them might look perfectly legal, although the farmers and villagers could have been threatened to part with their land or fooled into cheap deals. Apparently, the granite mafia in Madurai alone have usurped vast tracts of land from local villagers.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Oct 2012 18:51

Flop show of Jaspal Bhatti on the Public housing.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 31 Oct 2012 00:05

Any news on the exact alignment for the Bengaluru metro line extension to the new airport ? All news publicly available just says Nagawara line will be extended up north. What is the news on the ground ? Will it be along the Thanisandra area where there are large residential complexes coming up ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Nov 2012 04:22

mmm.. billions of $ as taxes and stamp duty wasted by the ever stupid GoI and state gov regulations. finally this is blame we all share. why do we allow a system to have RE agreements for X value, and then while at sale deed, it is just because of huge money involved as 12-15% of X value that we pay as stamp duty etc to gov? If I were to govern, I would just turn this trillion $$ waste and black money converter to all clean system by just reducing the stamp paper and taxes to 5-6% max, and ensure the sale deed happens on agreed amount on the agreement.

plus, it stops corruption.. now that 5% itself would be 500% on the books in terms of transactions. The gov guided value is way lower than market value. this is a big loss to the nation. only stupid banana people can accept to live like this for ever and over and over and again and again the same corruption setup for eons living merrily as if everything is peachy an keen!

what an elite fu)k up... and we look like pakis when we do this. and as any paki can create photo id, he can do a million $ transaction in a jiffy, and indirectly, we are aiding and abetting terrorism. So, in a sense, we can be renamed in BR, as TSI, la TSP.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Nov 2012 07:49

the hennur road from ORR towards devanhalli side is being projected as the new big commercial and residential corridor. it has been 4 laned and lot of apts coming up now.
could be the next ORR. the 4 laning is not smooth, but haphazard and road surface is wavy - no real surprises given BBMP std of work.

so far no sign that metro would serve anything in east blr like extention upto whitefield or a circumferential line along ORR. in all their brilliance the planners who designed the ORR did not leave any space even for proper service roads, let alone addl space to add lanes or metro lines later. I suspect its not technically feasible without acquiring addl land along the ORR - in short it aint possible unless its a very expensive underground rail.

the political and cultural center of gravity in blr is concentrated in the center , west and south with all the movers and shakers and oldest patrician families. so no surprise those areas get all the meat in terms of BBMP projects. east blr is just itvity, new colonies, narthie riff raff and other sources to squeeze money from

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Nov 2012 08:44

But Hennur and Nagwara are not next to each other.

I sense a need for an additional 2 to 3 more metro lines to cover the entire city as part of phase-2 or phase-3 expansion. ORR itself will need a dedicated line crossing the already planned ones under implementation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Nov 2012 21:26

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... l-property
I want to touch base on the issue again..

so, for indics - gc and above nris, inheritance is one thing.. let us say, buying a property and capital gains on that is something you pay anyway.. I guess, if one sells property and then reinvest on another property, then there is no direct income tax.

now, if the property is land only, and there is no construction, there is no necessity to pay deemed income tax on the rent.. just to confirm.. normally, if nri has a home abroad, the second one in desh is considered taxable on a deemed rental value, even if it is not rented out.. now q: what if the purchase is for the purpose of helping mother or parent? would it be still considered as rental or not?

?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Nov 2012 21:58

nri's home abroad is not part of the count, afaik.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2012 04:45

well.. i thought so too.. but per the link, that is not correct. the second home at desh after the first one anywhere on the planet, per GoI rules, will have to be taxed at deemed rental values. now, that does not say, how many.. meaning one could have a home or two in every country but the second..Nth one onwards at desh is taxable.

--
per my view on the recent visit to desh, blur real estate is in bad shape.. the city does not even deserve that many buildings.. and damn poor infrastructure. the number of traffic on road is pathetic in addition below poverty line hygiene structure.. trash is all over in addition to bbmp strike.. but it was never cleaner even when they were operating without striking.

BluR is FUBR!.. sorry, the lost old city will never come back again.. I strong feel, there should be flat 4-6% tax on RE sales on market value.. so that that kittys up the gov money. That is like trillion $$$ moolah alone! now, people and brokers should be kicked off this madness to do black money in RE. People want to avoid paying taxes, and end up building up black RE money. This is a national shame.. even below the lowest degraded nation on the planet. unless, we kick politicians butts, and those butts who vote for such policies.. RE tax can bump up road infrastructures and planning. more cleaner and useful cities will spring.. proper distribution of funds, can help many villages to grow up easing up city life to village standards.

bad air
bad water
bad hygiene
bad infra
bad electricity
bad traffic
bad politics
...

RE's only gain is personal black money kitty.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Nov 2012 09:48

how long did you stay for your visit. If it is only a few days, then the reaction is understandable.

It is not just Blur, every city by and large has the same issues.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Nov 2012 10:05

SaiK wrote:well.. i thought so too.. but per the link, that is not correct. the second home at desh after the first one anywhere on the planet, per GoI rules, will have to be taxed at deemed rental values. now, that does not say, how many.. meaning one could have a home or two in every country but the second..Nth one onwards at desh is taxable.

But how does GoI know if you own anything outside in the first place. It does not make sense.

What makes sense is if you have a 2nd property in India, then maybe GoI can tax the second one as deemed income. But this is full of loopholes too. what if 2nd property has lower rentals than what GoI thinks its rental value is ? Basically unimplementable rules, hence no one gives it a fig. How can one otherwise explain people buying up many units in a single complex.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2012 12:19

good points.. the loopholes and the new loopholes is all the mark of GoI and its people. transparency is one word that lacks in indic behavior. but, it is better to know that there exists a loophole, and how one may use or misuse it is entirely an indic choice.

GoI could always have a tie up with khaans or other nations to provide information on people owing properties by way of IT-IRS exchanges on basic information exchange.. like does mr. x owns or rents. etc.. if they want it, they can do it.

it doesn't take a jiffy to execute a phone call or arrange a consulting service like they do for passport services etc.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Nov 2012 12:40

SaiK wrote:<SNIP>... I strong feel, there should be flat 4-6% tax on RE sales on market value.. so that that kittys up the gov money. <SNIP>

And what happens to the genuine buyer under your above scheme? What happens to his affordability?

The ones with Black Money (BM) will still manage some route...it is the mango abdul who will be hit - as usual.

That aside - let me ask everyone here who has bought residential plot or apartment a question - at what value did you guys pay stamp duty and registration charges?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Nov 2012 19:20

When shq bought her tiny flat in tvm it was at full declared value, aka what exactly was paid to the builder. No cash at all, entire amount was via DD/check.

When I did the same for myself in Kochi, it was 85% value of the cost. The builder insisted that the 15% has to be paid via cash as they have to pay the land owner the same. So we did a cashier's check for the 15%. I was reluctant and dragged it for 6+ months, but could not push it. Builder said since every flat is at the same cost, others will end up in trouble at registration time, if mine shows larger value for the same size and a lowest floor unit. So the registration shows 85% of actuals paid. Since I had a loan on it, I ended up coughing up another 20% or so to pay interest on the sale amount.

Both are in prime locations of each city. But in rural KL, I have heard that people show only 30% of the actual cost at times. Dunno if it is true. SaiK can throw some light.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 07 Nov 2012 21:01

I paid duties showing 25% of the actual cost value. The farmers selling the land would have it no other way.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2012 21:33

;yeah; rohit the aam abduls will slowly start getting to feel the right market price, since the need to demand more is solely because of our infrastructure bad planning [focusing only on cities], and this greed to do black money.. and people hesitate to pay high in taxes because 12-15% it becomes a huge amount. so a flat rate of 4% of market value, means market value will get automatically regulated.. and people can't escape forgetting the gov guided values. history.

bade, the 30-40% is about right.. and 60-70% black is what happens in 99% of RE deals. It is very simple, all GoI has to do is get the Agreement documents, and start collecting arrears backlog of 4%, and then regulate it... more or less, black will get white in a nice scheme.

you are talking about aam abduls.. what can aam abduls do if the black market value is 1CR, and sale deed says 20L? he is screwed right from the point of his dreams.

Not just that, source of income must match the sale deed is the loop hole.. it should match the agreement document, and make the agreements as legal documents for income tax purposes. everything will fall in place.

babooze hate it.. 'cause all their black money is from RE.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Nov 2012 21:58

Now it is tricky when you buy plots within enclaves, say in JhumriPalya/BLur-Rural. There is land cost which is separate from development cost.

What is registered and taxes paid on is land cost and not development cost. Usually it is 25% for raw land, and rest for development. Conversion from agri to BDA/BIAPA approval, roads, drains, clubhouse, walls and all other infra inside enclave make up the 75% cost. The sale deed shows the total 100% value, but taxes collected seem to be on the 25% value onlee.

No black money involved here from what I can see. All declared and transparent and traced to loans if needed.

Again dunno, if all deals are like that. Re-sale experiences could vary. Greenfield projects seem more transparent strangely, but a welcome sign.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Nov 2012 18:28

read the deed.. before buying the land, it is possible to get a copy of the sale deed or original documents. check out how many people have to sign in to get the land onto your name?

now... don't buy any land on power of attorney. read carefully on what it says.. especially on the ownership, and rights and forfeit clauses. if 10 things says all for your benefit, and if one thing says somebody has a hold, fu(k it straight away. it is impossible unless you are part and parcel of the gang that operates on such scams and land issues.

a bda land is alway safe. revenue conversion is a big pain owing to big laws, and children of the property because, mostly it is a huge land that is sold by making a layout.. so, no way it is going to be very clear to you who are all the original families, and which lingappa or doddana will hold your balls is anybody's guess [because what you have read is only 10%, and there may be affidavits, counter documents, counterfeit documents, forged and bribed.. that includes an entry in the computer systems - believe me, for money, they can erase a person's existence on records].

for heaven or hell's sake never nod yes or no to any broker. these fu(kers have no english knowledge to know about the problems in the original deeds. after reading couple of documents, now I think i can consult.

if you know your country, then you don't need to ask

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 13 Nov 2012 10:34

Rs 1 cr for a flat? Sorry, you'll only get a slot for your car

MUMBAI: If a decade ago, Rs 30 lakh was good enough to buy a one BHK in a distant suburb or even two SUVs, today it may be barely enough to acquire a parking space. Developers are charging exorbitant rates-from Rs 7 lakh to Rs 40 lakh-for car parks in some of the high-end residential complexes in Mumbai.

It is not just the new highrises dotting the city landscape from Nepean Sea Road to Wadala that are demanding high rates, even older buildings like Samudra Mahal in Worli command Rs 80 lakh to Rs 1 crore for a closed parking garage. Earlier, these parking spaces would be available for between Rs 5 lakh and Rs 15 lakh

Orbit Corporation is quoting Rs 40 lakh for a parking slot in its residential projects at Nepean Sea Road, while a short distance away, Rohan Lifescapes is quoting around Rs 30 lakh in its luxury 'Ashiana' building.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2012 01:12

all I can say is Indian stupidity.. Indian democracy is not set up for aam aadmi freedom. it is all for the riches, corrupt and rowdies. if you can be a goonda-giri, you can make money and live happily. our culture, religion, etc is all a fu(k up for the real society.. the funny thing is 99% of our billion population loves the indic corruption setup, because each one of the them is so corrupted and fubar-ed.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Nov 2012 02:46

^ Why blaming Indic and religion saar?

We were ruled by the benevolent British for 200 years. After that we continued with their systems and have our own "Secular" Raj.

Why do we blame Indics and Hinduism for India's problems but praise British and Muslims for anything good about India?

Why don't we give Indics and Hinduism a chance for say 20-30 years and see if it is a failed religion and society?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2012 03:56

I did not say it is failed yet.. I said it is failing us big time -- just the read the amount of corruption and the total value of loss and compare the same in investments towards infrastructure, aam-admi improvements, making all villages cities, providing clean air, water, electricity, transportation, communication, and advanced facilities for all on equal terms, etc.

We can't keep blaming British ever long.. Brits have gone since 60 years.. if there is anything that need correction, we need only from the majority (sadly, that is what is needed for change in a democracy), and correct it with a big policy change vote bank. there is no point, we continuously suffer while the rich and capable keep a wide gap between them an aam admi.

our poor is failing too since we have ignored many sdre living now. selfish only to city and personal growth, and ignore the larger needed sector growth. we come up with gazillion reasons and ask why?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Nov 2012 07:45

^ isn't it the failure of socialist secular constitution and government of India?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2012 21:33

yes and well supported by the majority vote bank. without people support no democratically elected gov anywhere on the planet can do things like this. people find ways to remain corrupted, be it keeping the constitutions intact for that to happen or policies and procedures to ensure the vested interest always keeps helm.

again squarely the people.. i blame the majority. who is the gov of I? animals? or friangs? or some aliens from outside the planet? why we separate every institution or body when it comes to corruption and bad things, and people at large are good and never the issue? imho, 90% of indic people wants corruption to happen. hence, that is what you get it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Nov 2012 21:56

We blame the nameless and faceless people but absolve the Govt, which is elected for this very purpose.

Who are the people electing? For what reasons and for what ends? Is this clear in our secular socialist constipation?

When did the system encourage an election based on manifesto and the winning party sticking to its manifesto?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2012 22:02

En established process does not necessarily mean process in place and valid, with no loopholes and in perfect health. I don't need to say here, since you all know about it.

The fact is that the system is in place is wrong., and there is little desire to change from people is the truth, and they continue to love what they want to do... no taking responsibilities even if the nation goes to dogs.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Nov 2012 22:14

You can rant at your constipation or your govermand, but that does not solve the issues. Everything is connected in a tight knot. One can say salaries are too low, which encourages corruption. Similarly, it is cheaper to find a driver to do your job, and hence traffic rules are an afterthought, so is the condition of the road. After all, it is not your job to drive in India if you can afford it. So what is the incentive for change, if most of people could care less about road quality or traffic rules. Same reasoning applies to corruption in real estate. Changing from one type of constipation methods to another method

is not going to make any effect on how the population behaves.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2012 22:38

well said.. these thoughts should seed in with all for more. people should start feeling that there is a change needed.. and that there is just not a desire, but a burning requirement that they feel to plug the system. then, things will fall in place automatically.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 15 Nov 2012 00:41

Entire populations change at a very-slow pace. It is the government's duty to stimulate it for the better.

Wonder why the entire population of Nizam-state did not move out, even when they knew that life outside its borders is lot better?

The fear of change/unknown!

The primary responsibility of state is to develop a better roadmap for the needy, in any realm. It includes civic and industrial infrastructure too.

The opposite of this is not removing the state for good. The opposite of this is to define and build better state. We need better state algorithms (as defined in the constitution and govt policy) to make the social-change faster.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 15 Nov 2012 02:23

YamaRaj ji

People of north-central AP districts used to go to Nagpur/Wardha/Chandrapur regularly to earn a living.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2012 03:04

RamaY, all said and done.. let me put this one example in all things considered:

politicians and gangs - example laying roads per policy say is 1feet in thickness.. and politicians demand 30% cut.. and then the rest 40% profits into the company, so the remaining 30% is all they have to lay the road. so, effectively aam admi is getting 4" of road infrastructure as against 1'. Now, what policy driver that can change such corruption?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 15 Nov 2012 07:54

Please bear with me friends. I did not study in English medium and did not eat Non-veg till I was 18 so I am little thick in my analytical abilities.

Often I hear that illiteracy is the reason for the corruption. But wherever I go it is the govt employees, whose minimum qualification is 15 years of schooling, who are mostly corrupt. I also wonder if Kerala has any corruption since they are ~100% literate.

The second reason I hear for corruption is because of Hinduism. I wonder if all Christian and Muslim employees of Govt are uncorrupt. If this is correct then I support MMS that we should replace all Hindu govt employees with Christians and Muslims. Or atleast they should get converted. I wonder if Anglo-Indians are not corrupt, because they are half-British.

What about British? Were they corrupt? All the billions of artifacts, jewelry and diamonds tell me that all that wealth cannot be voluntarily gifted by Indians who ended up near-nanga by 1947.

Or is corruption is one of the Hindu cancers that will not leave the genes of Sub-continentals like casteism is?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Nov 2012 02:14

Yes. If you feel something is true, then it is true. Because, in genuine SDRE cases, the feeling happens only against experiences since most SDRE's life style drives to higher tolerance limits than the rest of tfta mass.

So, the cancer must be killed to make any meaningful change. RE sector is the king pin. when I said indic correction, that includes other religions as well.. policies are national index driven and not sect/religion or caste.

It should apply for all equally.