Indian Real Estate Sector

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Bade
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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2012 03:12

I also wonder if Kerala has any corruption since they are ~100% literate.
No, KL is not 100% non-corrupt state. But 100% literacy has made it a less corrupt place than other states perhaps. The absolute levels of corruption might be lower in comparison to others, but I am not sure if relative % of corruption is any better than other states.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2012 03:30

what would be jenmom right in the land of the Gods? is it free hold or it could be property purchased and jenmom rights transferred?

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby lakshmikanth » 16 Nov 2012 03:41

Bade wrote:
I also wonder if Kerala has any corruption since they are ~100% literate.
No, KL is not 100% non-corrupt state. But 100% literacy has made it a less corrupt place than other states perhaps. The absolute levels of corruption might be lower in comparison to others, but I am not sure if relative % of corruption is any better than other states.


Indeed. Its a noisy democracy, but it is in a much more functional condition than many other states. The reason why things dont get done in other states is because of feudalism. The reason why things dont get done in Kerala is because of democratic noise (left-wing - right -wing mutually assured destruction in slow motion)

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2012 04:01

SaiK wrote:what would be jenmom right in the land of the Gods? is it free hold or it could be property purchased and jenmom rights transferred?

Not familiar with the term. I have only heard of puramboke lands, which certain people settled and later sold. Dunno what the status of such transactions are.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2012 05:00

http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/939984/ "Under the definition, any jenmom right in Kerala is an 'estate'. A jenmom right is the freehold interest in a property situated in Kerala. Moor in his "Malabar Law and Custom" describes it as a hereditary proprietorship. A jenmom interest may, therefore be described as 'proprietary interest of a landlord in lands'."


So, it is similar to say, two brothers split up when young or like amitabh bachchan movies, and join back later only to know his bro sold their lands.. so, the other brother can claim jenmom rights on his inherited property.

Now, how in the world people prove that there a no brothers, and as such the legal system allows a land to be sold.. but this is true i think everywhere, but jenmom rights should have some limitations to actually brother who is selling should be allowed to sell only his share.

Now, legal system in desh is always skewed.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Sachin » 16 Nov 2012 10:08

Bade wrote:But 100% literacy has made it a less corrupt place than other states perhaps.

Saar, corruption is there in the "Commie Heaven" of Kerala as well. But a few things makes a difference. You may not find corruption at a street level. For example, you may not find a police constable (in full uniform) walk upto a bar/liquour shop, collect his daily bribe and walk off. Neither do folks demand Rs.10, Rs.20 as bribe. I have seen these things happening in other neighbouring states. But that does not mean corruption is not there in Kerala. Folks have managed to identify ways and means to get the money, through other channels. Most likely money transactions done on a weekly-once basis, and certain specific locations. Another example is the requirement of getting certain applications to be filled up by certain private individuals. For example, the Municipal Corporation requires an apeksha in Shudh Malayalam for getting a title deed, or even a marriage certificate. There would be private parties who would sit outside the office to prepare the application. They collect a hefty "service charge" of say Rs.50/- for one single application. None of the office staff collect any money. But in the evening, the private individuals distribute the share. Same goes for other offices like RTO etc. And off course there is corruption at the political level, where the stakes are much higher. But being very politics centred, such things may also get easily identified and reported. And many government officials who take bribe openly also get trapped by the VACB squads.

SaiK wrote:what would be jenmom right in the land of the Gods? is it free hold or it could be property purchased and jenmom rights transferred?

My understanding is Janmam type land is like property which has been passed on by your ancestors to you. It is like inherited property. Such property can be sold, but I guess it is a much more complicated process, because consensus may have to be taken from others who also have Janmam rights. Remember the landed gentry in Kerala is known as Janmis. In olden days the way things worked was that Janmis used to sub-lease the lands as Kaanam to people who are interested in agriculture. Janmis rearly did the actual ground work. The Kaana Kudiyaans used to further sub-let the land to the Verum Paatakkar, who actually did the farming work on their small share of land. And when the harvest is done the crops/revenue gets shared with clear cut percentages established. A share is also kept aside for the other "trades/craftsman" like the village blacksmith, coppersmith etc. who were supporting the show (but did not do the actual agricultural work).

I guess jenmom rights can be transferred. For example when we purchased a flat, one thing we had to get an "Encumbrance Certificate" indicating that the person selling the land, had the sole rights to sell the land and that he had sole possession of the land for the last 20 years. Then there is some thing known as Changing of Jama/Jama Maatal by which the new purchaser pays up the municipal taxes. By then the registration of the sale deed would have got completed. When the new chap pays up the tax he is given a certificate, which is proof to show that the land now belongs to the new buyer.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2012 21:03

agreed... say, the seller gives you encumbrance cert, all tax paid receipts, clean everything... and the property is sold.

now, after couple of years, one inherited entity suddenly appears and questions the sale. is this possible? how does the current process restrict or allows this?

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2012 21:57

It is possible. It happened to my friend in bengaluru onlee. Stay on construction on the property for the last decade. Court dates gets moved around and things remain fluid.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Sachin » 17 Nov 2012 10:18

SaiK wrote:now, after couple of years, one inherited entity suddenly appears and questions the sale. is this possible? how does the current process restrict or allows this?

This is possible. My take is that encumbrance certificate etc. can be given out without due verifications. So many people get the entire deed, land records scrutinised to find out if the seller is the only chap who can make the sale. Also I have seen cases where every thing was okay, but the land which got sold was in the "Green Belt". You cannot build houses here.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2012 10:25

what does kulangara mean in malayalam? I have seen certain temples whose names have the suffix kulangara.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Sachin » 17 Nov 2012 10:57

Singha wrote:what does kulangara mean in malayalam? I have seen certain temples whose names have the suffix kulangara.

KuLam means a "pond", and "kara" means a shore/or piece of land. So both the words combined, "kulangara" may mean a the "shore of a pond" or "near to a pond".

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2012 11:44

SaiK wrote:agreed... say, the seller gives you encumbrance cert, all tax paid receipts, clean everything... and the property is sold.

now, after couple of years, one inherited entity suddenly appears and questions the sale. is this possible? how does the current process restrict or allows this?



That is why it is advisable to spend 20-30K and get a proper due diligence done through a lawyer. This will cover all the following:

- Title due diligence covering inspection of the Land/premises and identifying the property and thereafter conducting search at the office of the Sub-Registrar, court of appropriate judicature and other governmental offices to verify the tile of the vendor in the property. This will also cover mutation in property records etc.

- Tracing of title shall cover last 30 years revenue records.

- Any encumbrance on the property.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Sachin » 17 Nov 2012 13:56

^^^^ rohitvats you have a P.M (message).

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby shyam » 17 Nov 2012 14:16

Singha wrote:what does kulangara mean in malayalam? I have seen certain temples whose names have the suffix kulangara.

Are you referring to Kallekkulangara Hemambika Temple in Palakkad?

Here is the contribution of that temple to our national politics

Akathethara’s Indira Gandhi connection

Image

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2012 14:29

Sachin wrote:^^^^ rohitvats you have a P.M (message).


Yup....saw it. Will ask for reference for Bangalore. Give a day's time and will revert.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2012 17:32

the delhi liquor and real estate baron who did fratricide seems to be moradabad based.
way back in 1998 when I lived in delhi, there used to be a sharab ka theka among the bushes to left of delhi-gurgaon NH8 at kapashera border.the surly guy serving beer from a shed and the puppies parked among the bushes guzzling beer sitting on the trunks or engine hoods of their cars were a sight to behold (me and buddy went there in scooter from mahipalpur). word had it a "moradabad based don" had got the gurgaon liquor contract by paying X cr to the powers that be.

this could be the same guy.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2012 20:10

rohitvats, still the lawyers can do as much as records can be found. it is funny that our records keeping could still miss an event totally, like saying my little brother whom we thought was missing after india-pak war, and suddenly appear after 40 years., and now demands his share of things.

so, no amount of money spent on such matters really help. unless, we have rules and laws that nullifies such claims, and ignores the complaint.

---

but yeah, kerala is one place where there is reduced problems when one compares at national level.. people respect other's land, even if it is puramboke or jenmam based rights. if one buys, it shall remain guaranteed by kerala ways of living, and thus the lands of Gods. The more truth is prescribed as truth, the more Gods it shall feel. This can be felt in the lands of Gods.

meaning, people are more honest in kerala than other places., when it comes to land and title.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2012 20:34

Saik, nothing stops anyone filing any case when it comes to property and land matters in India. By undertaking a proper due diligence you can at least know where you stand with respect to the property titles and other issues such a encumbrance. The probability of such cases being filed reduces if the property has no issues.

Someone on this thread mentioned that land was sold which later turned out to be part of Green Zone as per master plan - now, this is something the scope of work of normal due diligence will not cover. But by making some extra payment, one can get clear idea about the zoning of the land which one is planning to buy and save oneself from surprises later.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2012 22:50

i agree on the fact that the money spent on the lawyers to dig in, should yield better framework and evidence based study to inquire into the facts. i wish, they get this done mandatory, so that no stone is unturned and left for the future victimization.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Bade » 17 Nov 2012 22:55

Since there is no single point of service, like title insurance in massa, this is a serious issue for land buyers in India. One would hope that if one goes via a bank loan to buy anything, they would do the due diligence. But they do not either, which is surprising. Or I am told not to rely on them alone to do your due diligence. What if the local lawyers themselves are on the payroll to dupe you. Unless you are locally entrenched, be it bengaluru or GoL Kerala, how can an outsider buy land without any fear. More transparent methods need to be in place.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2012 23:08

Or.. by the power of documentation.. meaning, if you have records, and your documents are genuine, then it shall stand valid till death. Some person can come and claim land, but the process established should correct loopholes, and prescribe that none shall come back and stake claim.. and should there be any genuine cases, then claimant shall lose the land by the new definitions, that the new land has new ownership that is obtained legally.

Perhaps, a notice to all concerned, news paper ad, marriage like celebration of the new property etc can help, but will not solve problems.. The only way, is land records should clearly give the benefit to the new owner, since he got it with right having paid for the property. It is just that the jenmam right holder is not aware that this has happened, and is not the fault of the new owner.

what a painful situation we have gotten ourselves. I say, by the will power, the other brother or family member who got money from selling, should pay the new entrant for property claim, per the will or established property share by heir and settle the matter rather challenge the new acquisition.

This should be made a law., and bring a mango solution to a banana setup.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2012 09:36

this ownership of land aspect has been cleaned up in the developed countries from 100s of years ago in the settled areas, and that includes good records of births and deaths as well. maybe it was due to better governance, or maybe there was and still is enough land for everyone who wants it, but this is one aspect where we have a long way to go.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2012 00:51

^that is because, we are inheriting only the structure of legal system from firangs.. many a british laws still in place, and not at all fine tuned. it applies not just to RE, but other areas of governance as well.

we simply refuse to change.. and are happy to keep blaming every other citizen in the neighborhood. except otherwise BDA allotted property, every other property in desh is under fear of someone coming back and claiming their rights. this is a shame for an advancing nation.

firstly, we need to keep flat 4% sales/property tax on registrations, and proceed to get everything at market value. no guidance or crap value that is a major cause of corruption. just simple plain rules, and we don't want it. this is an utter shame, even to the best of educated class.

we have succumbed to corruption, and fubr-ed.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2012 21:26


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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby vishvak » 20 Nov 2012 16:45

forest law conflicts
After Indian Independence in 1947, the forest rights act was amended in 2006. Even then forest rights acts is still not upto the best standards, with every related side giving its own turn.

Point is better start ASAP while learning from such concerns raised from other amendments.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 05 Dec 2012 21:05

okay questions on renting out home:

I bought a home in desh on my last visit, and planning to rent it out to reliable people [which I think is important].. now, any helpful information on the following is appreciated:

1. I understand Electricity and Water needs to be paid by the renter.. so how is this transfer done? The name is still on the owner who I purchased from.. he has not vacated yet on request.

2. Other utilities - any issues here?

3. of course tax related items will be on me, but the renter must inform me... anything else here?

other areas of renting problems? issues? need to know?

TIA

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Sachin » 06 Dec 2012 13:39

SaiK wrote:other areas of renting problems? issues? need to know?

1. The utility charges (power, water) is generally born by the tenant. The bill may come in the name of the house owner, but it gets paid by the tenant. Or else the rent should factor this as well.
2. Who pays the maintenance charges? (especially in apartment complexes). Again some say the tenant pays its up. Or else rent gets increased accordingly.
3. When vacating the premises who cleans/repaints the home?
4. And off course a good rent agreement between the parties, how ever well known the tenant is to you ;).

Another hassle which I face is when the tenant calls ups on minor issues (fan not working, require a lens to be fixed onto the main door etc.). Ideally I should get this fixed up. But what I do is to ask him get the work done, and deduct the rent accordingly.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SaiK » 06 Dec 2012 21:58

thanks sachin, that was very helpful.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby SwamyG » 29 Jan 2013 07:38

Is Chennai still in the real-estate bubble? Any sign of correction?

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Jan 2013 17:51

IS Chennai in a Real Estate Bubble- Definitely Yes. Is it correcting not sure

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2013 09:55

the problem in india is the tier2 and tier3 cities are for most part well behind the tier1 in terms of education, opportunity...so a vast movement is taking place to the tier1 not because they are so great or well run, but because they are better than the best of the rest.
similarly movement from tier1 to foreign shore has always taken place albeit limited by visas.

for internal migration there is no visa or limits.

even a "small" city like BLR occupies a area of 100 x 100km now from hoskote in the east to bidadi in west, from devanhalli in north to hosur in south of unbroken urbanization. and its not slowing down. except for a small patch near mandya, all of the 120km to mysore is now urbanized and its likely that ramanagaram and chennapatna will within this decade be engulfed within BBMP limits and probably by 2025, mysore will be "west bangalore" and well within city limits :)

I only hope soothing electric commuter trains and expways are in place by then... there is talk of ph3 of blr metro which will go along ORR...ofcourse no space was kept on ORR for metro right of way...so remains to be seen how its tackled..prolly another huge round of chaos.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Bade » 30 Jan 2013 11:46

BLR should be doing what Dilli is doing regarding metro extension. Build along all spokes and wheel in the city. They should be doing phase 3 to 6 in one go to be done by 2020 or thereabouts. There is massive under planning in India. Too much time wasted on feasibility reports and other BS time pass. The plan should be to build like a total length of a few hundred kms of metro lines and start finding the money to do it now, including land acquisition where needed. If one waits long then the only option left would be to dig deep underground.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2013 12:40

yes even feasibility report takes 18 months. and they were saying phIII would be asked for approval only when phII is approved.

too little too late in terms of blr metro clearly. the city has clearly outpaced whatever metro plans were set 5 yrs ago.

100s of km worth of track will need to be taken up in parallel to close the gap.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Prem » 10 Apr 2013 09:49

Any recomendation for good trustworthy commercial real estate agent?

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2013 09:57

due to lack of planning in the ring roads, the only way BLR can have wheel type metro lines is by going almost 100% underground.
they should stop moaning over it and get started, people are willing to pay for good service as they do in volvo red buses.

at present its all spoke type lines under construction.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby rohitvats » 08 May 2013 15:20

Jhujar wrote:Any recomendation for good trustworthy commercial real estate agent?


Good trustworthy and Real Estate Agent? :mrgreen: :rotfl: :mrgreen:

On a serious note, what is that you're looking at? And where?

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Vasu » 07 Jun 2013 11:43

Centre okays real estate regulator

The Centre on Tuesday approved legislation for setting up a regulator for the real estate sector. The move is purported to protect the interests of home buyers and provides for a jail term of up to three years for private developers for cheating customers with false advertisements.

The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Bill, approved by the Union Cabinet, has been pending since 2007 due to pressure from the real estate lobby. The bill is likely to be tabled in the monsoon session of Parliament.

All builders involved in projects spread over 1,000 sq metre or more will have to register themselves with the real estate regulatory authority before launching or even advertising for their project.

The bill also mandates that every developer should maintain separate bank accounts for individual projects to ensure that funds raised for a particular venture is not diverted elsewhere. The law suggests that the cost of construction of a particular project will have to be kept in a separate account. A developer should not collect money from buyers until the builder gets approval from the agencies concerned.

Before advertising for any project or starting construction, the developers have to put up the project details, including mandatory clearances, on the regulator’s website. Besides, the advertisements should have photographs of the actual site and homes which will be delivered to the consumers.

Failure to comply for the first time would attract a penalty of up to 10 per cent of the project cost, while repeat offenders could land up in jail for up to three years.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby sum » 07 Jun 2013 11:47

Meanwhile in namma Bengaluru:

Officials, land sharks join hands to encroach lake

Thanks to the active connivance of revenue officials with the land sharks, “genuine” properties have come up on the encroached portion of Sarakki Lake.

To kill the lake further, the Bruhat Bangalore Mahanagara Palike (BBMP) wanted to asphalt the road, which has been constructed illegally and bisects the water body into two parts. The BBMP stopped the project only after the Bangalore Development Authority (BDA), the custodian of the lake, raised a hue and cry.

Sarakki Lake, which is shown as 82 acres and 24 guntas on paper, has now been reduced to 63 acres on the ground. Despite a year of struggle and a volley of correspondence with the revenue department officials, BDA officials could not succeed in getting a certified sketch of Sarakki Lake. It was only after the People’s Campaign for Water, an NGO, filed a public interest litigation that the revenue officials came out with a sketch, which again is faulty.

Faulty sketch

The fear of High Court rap seems to have instilled some fear among the revenue officials, who came out with the new map on April 16, this year. But again, the map does not show the actual extent of the encroachment except for those sites which do not have “valid permission.” It only says that a mere 2 acres and 30 guntas had been encroached while in reality 20 acres had been grabbed.

A top BDA official told Deccan Herald that “genuine sites” had come up on the encroached portion as the layout carved out of lake land had been diverted for residential purposes.

As the layout has got all permissions, the revenue officials are now in a fix how to set right the illegality.


The officials had to ask to the revenue officials several times to demarcate the lake boundary and clear encroachments. They also wrote four letters to them—first one on May 7, 2012, and the last one, as recently as on April 30, 2013. They are yet to receive any reply.

The BBMP, too, played a very proactive role in killing the water body. The BDA official said: “A road has come up illegally right in the middle of the lake dividing the water body into two. To make it a permanent structure, the BBMP wanted to asphalt it. When we learnt about it we wrote a letter to the BBMP on September 25, 2012, to stop the work. As a result, the BBMP gave up the project.”

RIP to another lake

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Vasu » 07 Jun 2013 11:47

Real estate regulator: Harsh rules & soft banks will keep realty unclean

After politicians, builders are the most despised lot.

The housing market is about spiralling rates that have priced out most buyers, ambitious developers who are answerable to no one, emergence of property as an asset class and mortgage instalments becoming the dominant outgo in household budgets.

Like politicians, developers require no qualification: anyone with a claim on a slice of land can put out an advertisement to attract buyers. It's a business that employs millions and flourishes without a watchdog. Thus, any hint of a new law that assures fair deals and exemplary punishments that would be handed out by a new regulator is irresistible.

But it won't be a cakewalk. Advocates of such legislation should be prepared for the tortuous road towards a well-regulated and cleaner property market.

First, home prices could go up in the medium term. Once the new Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Bill, 2013, becomes law, builders would be barred from selling a project till all approvals — as many as 70 of them — are in place. This would delay launch of new projects and push up prices of those that are cleared.

Second, corruption may rise as multiple agencies drag their feet on clearances. Developers may strike convoluted deals giving buyers the option to purchase later. Third, disqualifying a shoddy builder could stall construction in all half-done projects and hurt genuine buyers. And, lastly, the validity of many regulatory actions could be challenged in higher courts.

But throwing the rule book would be ahalfway measure if men who bankroll developers are unwilling to pull the plug. More than any rule, this alone can make the biggest difference to the Indian property mart. So far, it hasn't happened. Banks could have brought about the change in 2008-09 when one of India's largest builders was on the brink of collapse.

Instead, lenders threw a lifeline to keep it afloat. While realty stocks plunged 90%, generous bankers thwarted a natural correction in property prices. India was among the few countries where real estate prices did not fall — in fact, even rose in cities like Mumbai — post Lehman. It was a reminder of the clout the trade wields.

Pushing a righteous Bill a year before the polls may be a brilliant idea by the government. But make no mistake. It's aimed to restrain a formidable lobby.

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Re: Indian Real Estate Sector

Postby Vasu » 07 Jun 2013 11:50

Mumbai's mangroves too have been victims to the greed for land.

50 acres of mangroves destroyed in Mumbai

Around 50 acres of mangroves were allegedly destroyed in Lokhandwala by planting "invasive species" and creating a debris path, which residents claimed was a new modus operandi to kill the green belt.

The tehsildar said that despite the highest tide of the month on May 23, no sea water entered the area, resulting in the death of mangroves.

"Blocking tide water into the inter-tidal wetlands and planting different types of vegetation that are not found in wetlands, after dumping debris, is a technique used to convert coastal regulatory zone (CRZ-1) land into areas with development potential," said Stalin D of the Vanashakti NGO.

The residents lodged a police complaint when they noticed almost 300kg of tree branches bundled together.

"A nursery was first created adjacent to the road. Then a path was created to dump debris and pave the way for construction. This was also done to distort satellite imagery, which shows mangroves at the site," said Ashoke Pandit, chairperson of the Oshiwara Lokhandwala Citizens' Association (OLCA).


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