Sixth Pay Commission

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Katare
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Sixth Pay Commission

Postby Katare » 24 Mar 2008 21:29

Reports and details of sixth pay commission awards have started to leak out. I am starting this new thread to collect all the information about awards and their implementation. Specially look for the information related to Armed forces, DRDO, Professors, Scientists, judges etc

Here is the first glimpse of the report/awards -

Salient features of Sixth Pay commission report

From URL above -

Cost to Govt-

Total net recurring cost to GoI - Rs 7975 corer (If implemented with cost saving suggestions)
Total recurring Cost to GoI - Rs 12561 Corer (If implemented without cost saving measures -worst case scenario)
One time cost - Rs 18,060 Corer (Arrears for 2006 and 2007)

Lowest salary to Highest salary ratio -

1:12 (IIRC it was 1:10.8 in fifth pay commission)

Rs 6600:Rs 80,000 (Actually Cabinet Sect would get Rs 90K/month)

Increased from 5th Pay commission's - Rs2550:Rs26000 (cab Sec Rs 30K)

Armed forces -

Will get basic pay on par with civilians

Additional Pay of Rs 6K/month for officers up to Brigadier level and Rs 1K/month for Jawans

Medical staff would get Rs 4200/month extra pay

Additional pay is linked to inflation so it'll increase each year

DG Medical elevated to -Rs 80K/month (sec level)

Performance Related Incentive Scheme -

Will replace ad-hoc bonus scheme
Top 20% employees would get annual increment at 3.5% and rest would get 2.5%

Highly skilled technical staff (scientists)

Some unknown system has been put in to place ???



Now just to clarify a cabinet secretary with pay-sclae of Rs 26K was actually getting paid up to 56K with inflation pay etc. So the net increase is From 56K to 80K with is around 40% increase at highest level not 2.5 times that DDM will report to get catchy headlines.



Salary hike of government staff justified

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Postby Katare » 24 Mar 2008 21:31

Well there you go the whole report at sixth pay commission's website -

Sixth Central Pay Commission

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Postby gashish » 25 Mar 2008 00:24

Comparision with private sector salaries, some salient points:

*Flight of talent due to disparity may not be true

the disparities between the private sector salaries
and salaries in the Government, citing this as a reason for the
reduced attractiveness of the Government as a career option and
for the decline in the quality of intake. The last contention was not
really borne out by the discussions the Commission had with the
heads of training institutions, according to whom the quality of
intake has remained consistent over the years. This has also been
corroborated by a survey carried out by one of the industrial
chambers of commerce from among executives in the corporate
sector, where, contrary to the popular belief that flight of talent has
shifted more towards the private sector with fast advancing
liberalization
, a large number agreed that civil services continue to
be an attractive option. Further, mere comparison of the pay or
pay scale without taking cognizance of the total package of
allowances and benefits available within the Government may
not be appropriate especially as the value of pension granted by
the Government and the value of job security provided cannot
be undermined since they form major components of the total
package.


*CTC and CTG for emploeyees in Group B, C & D are comparable. The substantial difference is for Group A employees.

In order to enable an appreciation of the total package
of benefits available to Government employees, a study for
estimating the total compensation package for Government
employees and cost to the Government was assigned to XLRI,
Jamshedpur. During presentations before the Commission, it
emerged that while the compensation provided by the
Government is higher at Group C and D levels, private sector
compensation packages are marginally higher for employees
comparable to Group B employees and substantially higher for
posts comparable to Group A officers in the Government.
Apart
from quantifying the value of pension and other benefits of
Government employees, the study has also brought out that the
‘job security’ offered by the Government has immense value that
cannot be easily quantified and a quantification will only serve to
underestimate the advantage it offers.


* recommendations to attract Group A and highly-skilled professionals.

In accordance with this, the
Commission has recommended a higher starting salary for
Group A posts and has also recommended that Government
should have the flexibility to offer a market driven salary to
highly qualified scientific and technical personnel whose skills are in demand in the private sector

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Postby rkhanna » 25 Mar 2008 00:35

Image

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Postby Katare » 25 Mar 2008 04:03

We have had lotsa comments in media and at BRF over last few months that all the fiscal gains of FRBM act would be lost when sixth pay commission awards pay hikes to govt employees but it seems like it is fairly benign awards with lotsa innovations.

Still there may be a few slips between the cup and the lip - govt must implement it as a package. If they go on cherry picking for political mileage/blackmail than it might still turn out to be a bad deal fiscally.

Seems like the term of reference that included "govt's capacity to pay" has done a balancing act in awards.

So the total cost to central govt in the worst case scenario would be 0.3% of GDP

Since a significant portion (26%) of this would be taken care of by Railway the central budget would take a hit of .22% of GDP or ~3% of total budget.

Rs 18K corer one time out go (likely to be divided over two years) might act like a fiscal stimulus (lotsa TV, referigerators, scooters and AC for babu families).

State govt except for Bihar/Orissa type basket cases should have even easier time implementing 6th pay commission than central govt.

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Postby Suraj » 25 Mar 2008 04:09

Katare: What gets actually implemented is all that matters. From a fiscal perspective, the 6th Pay Commission is rather benign. But if they go beyond recommendations and instead turn it into a 5th Pay Commission like handout, then there will be trouble. If they implement the current recommendations as a package, I don't have much to criticize. I don't see much reference to workforce reduction, and even if it were a recommendation, it probably will not be implemented in an election year. From a practical perspective, the recommendations are good. How they are carried out is what matters now.

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Postby SBajwa » 25 Mar 2008 05:22

Elections are looming around the corner and thus we have debts written off and 40% increases in government employee salaries. Let me remind our users that Indian government is heavily inflated.. IMHO.. 70% of the government employees are not needed., while Armed forces need to be increased by a factor of 3 (when compared with other countries around the world).

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Postby Katare » 25 Mar 2008 06:10

Suraj,

I think pay commission has played it safe this time, there is no recommendation for workforce reductions. There are actually nothing that requires anything which is hard to implement in a election year as per my readings so far. Will wait for all them CITU warms to crawl out of their holes and demand more free goodies.

It seems like armed force have hit a jack-pot this time. All there allowances have been at least doubled, some new ones are also accepted, a few linked to inflation and a new MSP componenet started to make their pay highest of all the govt employees.

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Postby abhishek » 25 Mar 2008 09:22

I don’t think anyone has hit a jackpot. It’s just that they have tried to normalize the salaries with the civilian sectors. In my opinion Indian civil servants and politicians are highly underpaid and this is one of the reasons for corruption and low motivation among the babu folk.

A district commissioner is paid as little as 30-40K while a 25 year old punk in IT Vity writing shi$$y code makes more then that. Don’t tell me babus get all kind of perks, etc… at the end of the day, when they retire they have none of these perks. The money they are paid is no where near what is required to maintain a decent lifestyle if they had to live in a big city.

PS: I don't work for Govt.....

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Postby p_saggu » 25 Mar 2008 09:45

What exactly do these figures mean in the salary make up?
xxxxx-abc-qwerty

What part has gone up? Which part is now merged?
Anyone?

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Postby Suppiah » 25 Mar 2008 13:44

Any discussion on the salary paid to civil servants should take into account two things - effective hours worked and bribes received.

Even ignoring bribes, considering effective hours worked, civil servants are paid higher than Bain or Mckinsey consultants on an hourly basis. For a 25k salary IT folks work minimum 60 hours and maximum lot more. Govt. servants work barely 5-6 hrs a week.

Yes officers are terribly underpaid but since we are not going to sack the monkeys and get supercats, let us pay them peanuts. They anyway are going to plunder bribes no matter what you pay them.

As far as clerks and rest go, they have nothing to complain. For working about 1hr a day or less they get super salary and job and pension security that nothing less than a nuclear holocaust can shake plus all the free time to do side-business as many of them do anyway.

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Postby Suppiah » 25 Mar 2008 13:48

BTW they are going to cherry pick all the goodies in the report, ignore all the recommendations on productivity etc., and then have a bidding war on who gets more credit for increasing the rewards. Stalinist mass murderers will ask for more, get what they want, claim the first credit, then MMS will better that to get some 'credit' for himself.

Then there will be an elaborate drama about Rahul Gandhi 'suggesting' something so that first family gets the vote at your and mine cost.

Raju

Postby Raju » 25 Mar 2008 13:48

Any discussion on the salary paid to civil servants should take into account two things - effective hours worked and bribes received.


how do you propose to calculate this ?

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Postby Suppiah » 25 Mar 2008 13:56

Raju wrote:
Any discussion on the salary paid to civil servants should take into account two things - effective hours worked and bribes received.


how do you propose to calculate this ?


The answer should be obvious if you have visited any govt office as a user, that too in villages and small towns.

Anyone registering a property or car knows how much 'standard' bribe is paid for every transaction. Same goes for birth, death certificates, water/electricity connections, housing plan approvals and a host of other things. Standard rates exist for many transactions. It is as good as published.

Without right to sack and right to demote/punish, it is meaningless to pay market linked. Whoever is not happy should be asked to quit and get out - then you see how many leave!

Raju

Postby Raju » 25 Mar 2008 14:02

Anyone registering a property or car knows how much 'standard' bribe is paid for every transaction. Same goes for birth, death certificates, water/electricity connections, housing plan approvals and a host of other things. Standard rates exist for many transactions. It is as good as published


those depts come under jurisdiction of the State Govt not the Centre.

We are talking of the Central Pay Commission.

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Postby Suppiah » 25 Mar 2008 14:10

Are you suggesting there is no corruption in Central Govt? And they all do 8 hour honest work per day? Even been to a CAG office or Registrar of companies etc?

Or that the state govt. employees will keep quiet and not demand the same increase and get it?

There will be difficulties in measuring but that cannot be an excuse for them to loot as they want and yet get salary increase that are linked to private pay.

With facilities comes costs. For all the facilities they enjoy they should work for less - and they will and are.. Just see how many quit because they are not happy with salary - am talking about lower cadres here. So they know which side of the bread is buttered. Let us not defend them

Raju

Postby Raju » 25 Mar 2008 14:19

Usually interaction of the common man with the Govt is at the State Govt level and with an employee of the State Govt. The employees of State Govt take their cues from their political leadership, if the political leadership doesn't have any moral fibre, the resp State Govt employees will follow suit.

But in a state like Gujarat one hears reports of lower corruption among state Govt employees. As compared to say higher corruption in an employee of Delhi State Govt.

Central Govt interaction is usually limited to the passport office, from where too corruption has been reported.

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Postby Suppiah » 25 Mar 2008 15:01

The biggest worry is this is not the end of story but the beginning of a story of loot and plunder on gigantic proportions. And most of it will go to the undeserving. Competent officers who dont like taking bribe will leave for private sector as many are doing already. We will be stuck with the scum.

State Govt staff, PSU staff, IA/AI, Bank staff, and all others will use this as a floor to demand and get their own increase. Then there will be more demands of 'parity' based on whoever manages to get the most from the eunuch regime held by its tuft by the Stalinists.

Few days back Deccan Herald reported that there were over 60000 applications for posts of engineers and inspectors for Bangalore water supply board - post vacant being 600. They are still counting. This is despite stricter qualification norms and insisting for Rs.500 demand draft etc. Now you try and place in the name of IBM/Birla etc. and see how many responses you get - it will be a fraction of that.

Everyone knows the 'value' of a govt. job despite so-called low pay.

For much of the last 50 years Govt job has been the utlimate dream of most Indians - to this day that is true but for 1% of the top cream who will be attracted by private sector. 99% of the scrap will not be touched with a 10 foot pole by any decent employer.

There is simply no need to spend more and more on these parasites.

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Recognition

Postby joshvajohn » 25 Mar 2008 18:09

I am indeed happy that the Government is recognising her servants. This will attract many to stay back in India. It is essential to tell the government officials to do their jobs properly without expecting extra from the people!

I share the concern that there should be strict measures for reducing the culture of bribing and culture of corruption in the government offices. We need more law for term or contract based jobs in the government officials.

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Postby Kalantak » 25 Mar 2008 18:34

^ Another sermon from spit and run poster.

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Postby R_Kumar » 25 Mar 2008 20:44

This is pathetic. Just few weeks back my parent had to pay 500/- bribe for passport. He tried his best to not to give. But they acted like as its their birth right.

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Postby Katare » 25 Mar 2008 21:19

R_Kumar wrote:This is pathetic. Just few weeks back my parent had to pay 500/- bribe for passport. He tried his best to not to give. But they acted like as its their birth right.


And what does this has anything to do with discussion on 6th pay commission?

When I last visited India I got my replacemnt passport in 36 hours without paying a single pisa to anyone. I was treated very nicely and had no problem at all.

Anyhow -

A 3.2 times hike for defence forces

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Postby gashish » 25 Mar 2008 22:42

Accounting for bribes received and number of hours put in by Govt Employees in salary calculations is basically institutionalising corruption.it might make "economic" sense on surface but ultimately will cost more to country. Also it does nothing towards the eventual goal of reducing corruption.
IMHO, even if there is one honest govt. employee in the whole country, the system should be designed to reward/help him though that might mean rewarding 1000s undeserving/corrupt babus.

analogous to the spirit of any criminal law..."its better to let 100 criminals go free than punish one innocent"

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Postby R_Kumar » 25 Mar 2008 23:46

Why it has nothing to do with 6th pay commission. 70% of the total work force is not needed. They are just heating chair and eating taxpayer money.

And then they demand bribe money. My local Daroga justified his bribe money as he said had to give a fix amount every month to the S.P(IPS).

I called Indian embassy in U.S multiple times and no one answer the phone. What is this?

First reduce the current workforce and and introduce some work ethics and accountability before hiking their salary. If they do that no one will question their salary.

Katare wrote:
R_Kumar wrote:This is pathetic. Just few weeks back my parent had to pay 500/- bribe for passport. He tried his best to not to give. But they acted like as its their birth right.


And what does this has anything to do with discussion on 6th pay commission?

When I last visited India I got my replacemnt passport in 36 hours without paying a single pisa to anyone. I was treated very nicely and had no problem at all.

Anyhow -

A 3.2 times hike for defence forces

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Postby Suraj » 25 Mar 2008 23:52

Any workforce reduction recommendation in the 6th Pay Commission would not have been implemented, in the current political dispensation, with elections looming. That was the case back in the late 1990s during the 5th Pay Commission, with the very same FM - Chidambaram - then in charge. Please don't turn this thread into a general NBJPrie-bashing fest. The recommendations of this commission are fairly progressive. It remains to be seen how well they are carried out.

On the subject:
"40% pay hike peanuts, we want 100% hike: PSU employees"
[quote]The over 1.6 million employees of central public sector companies are demanding a salary increase of over 100 per cent, saying the average 40 per cent raise recommended by the Sixth Pay Commission for government employees is not enough.

“Employees of public sector companies need to be remunerated in line with private sector companies if they are to be competitive,â€

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Postby R_Kumar » 26 Mar 2008 01:00

Suraj wrote:Any workforce reduction recommendation in the 6th Pay Commission would not have been implemented, in the current political dispensation, with elections looming.


Then why not wait for 2009. From now on everything will be justified because of election. Like Anddhra gov is giving free land for journalists. or like 60,000 cr for the farmers. I am sure by the time of the election, list will be too long.

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Postby Suraj » 26 Mar 2008 01:23

Because the report is ready now, and GoI will implement it as it sees in its own interest.

The need for a workforce reduction is perfectly valid, as is the indirect suggestion that a government should not be permitted to implement a pay commission recommendation except in its first 2-3 years.

But neither case exists now. My assertion is that since this report is out, if it had recommended a workforce reduction, it would not have been implemented. Therefore criticizing the lack of such a recommendation in this report is rather pointless.

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Postby R_Kumar » 26 Mar 2008 02:23

workforce reduction was in 5th pay commission. We all know what happened.
I don't buy the logic that since report was submitted it had to implement right away. So many report comes to the Government and they just ignore. In fact they can ignore Supreme court order if it helps them in the election.

Its all about the election. Normal people in small town who don't have government job going to feel the pain.

Small town government employee after 5th pay commission are already withdrawing handsome salary(when you compare to the average Janta) . I don't see any reason to increase their salary.

Suraj wrote:Because the report is ready now, and GoI will implement it as it sees in its own interest.

The need for a workforce reduction is perfectly valid, as is the indirect suggestion that a government should not be permitted to implement a pay commission recommendation except in its first 2-3 years.

But neither case exists now. My assertion is that since this report is out, if it had recommended a workforce reduction, it would not have been implemented. Therefore criticizing the lack of such a recommendation in this report is rather pointless.

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Postby Katare » 26 Mar 2008 02:26

R-Kumar,

be done with your whining already, BRF is not a complaint book. Everyone knows the problems you are talking about but you must limit scope of discussion to the topic at hand.

This topic is not for discussing corruption, election etc

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Postby R_Kumar » 26 Mar 2008 02:34

Please stop telling me what to talk or not to talk. I think what I am talking is relevant. You can't forced me to change my thinking. BRF is kind of complaint book and its for every one.

Katare wrote:R-Kumar,

be done with your whining already, BRF is not a complaint book. Everyone knows the problems you are talking about but you must limit scope of discussion to the topic at hand.

This topic is not for discussing corruption, election etc

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Postby Suppiah » 26 Mar 2008 09:06

Salary has very little to do with corruption, at least in India. The bribes earned are so much higher (500-1000% in most cases) than salary, no amount of increments can match that financially.

There has to be moral or legal controls.

I mentioned corruption and hours worked in the context of salary increase - not anything else. Generally you increase salary because of these

- inflation - this is already taken care of by DA
- market link / not able to attract good people - again barring top levels, this is not relevant for govt. jobs as the security and other visible and invisible perks has to be factored in. You either get high returns or low risks not both. The proof is in the fact that very few at lower levels leaves a govt. job and lakhs will cut off their arms to get one.
- because they are underpaid currently - this is a cruel joke unless you are talking about senior officers and military etc. where risk / reward ratio has to be readjusted.

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Postby abhishek » 26 Mar 2008 09:39

Any discussion on the salary paid to civil servants should take into account two things - effective hours worked and bribes received.

Even ignoring bribes, considering effective hours worked, civil servants are paid higher than Bain or Mckinsey consultants on an hourly basis. For a 25k salary IT folks work minimum 60 hours and maximum lot more. Govt. servants work barely 5-6 hrs a week.

Yes officers are terribly underpaid but since we are not going to sack the monkeys and get supercats, let us pay them peanuts. They anyway are going to plunder bribes no matter what you pay them.

As far as clerks and rest go, they have nothing to complain. For working about 1hr a day or less they get super salary and job and pension security that nothing less than a nuclear holocaust can shake plus all the free time to do side-business as many of them do anyway.


Your whole explanation is filled with madarasa logic. You claim that a clerk works only one hour, so he is being paid enough. Then guess what? A hard working clerk will never apply for a govt job until the salaries are attractive enough. Per your logic, govt should always employ incompetitive people and our country should always remain underdeveloped.

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Postby Suppiah » 26 Mar 2008 09:48

abhishek wrote:
Any discussion on the salary paid to civil servants should take into account two things - effective hours worked and bribes received.

Even ignoring bribes, considering effective hours worked, civil servants are paid higher than Bain or Mckinsey consultants on an hourly basis. For a 25k salary IT folks work minimum 60 hours and maximum lot more. Govt. servants work barely 5-6 hrs a week.

Yes officers are terribly underpaid but since we are not going to sack the monkeys and get supercats, let us pay them peanuts. They anyway are going to plunder bribes no matter what you pay them.

As far as clerks and rest go, they have nothing to complain. For working about 1hr a day or less they get super salary and job and pension security that nothing less than a nuclear holocaust can shake plus all the free time to do side-business as many of them do anyway.


Your whole explanation is filled with madarasa logic. You claim that a clerk works only one hour, so he is being paid enough. Then guess what? A hard working clerk will never apply for a govt job until the salaries are attractive enough. Per your logic, govt should always employ incompetitive people and our country should always remain underdeveloped.


Not enough applications for govt. jobs? read my other posts.

It is not a question of choice --> Our ranks of Govt servants are already filled with incompetent, arrogant and corrupt. You and me and all the powers on earth cannot remove them barring a nuclear assault by Pakistan and China. Then we all die.

Two super brave women tried and paid for it. One was called Indira Gandhi - during emergency, many have reported that bank and govt. employees not only came to office on time but worked!. She paid for it and we had to live with urine drinking morons for a few years.

Another one called J. Jayalalitha tried and had to scramble to undo some of the good work for election sake - and yet she paid a heavy price. Govt. employees voted enmasse against her.

We can only (try) fix what we can fix. In the short and medium term. Yes, if we can weed out the lazy, incompetent, corrupt and keep only the rest, paying them super salaries is a good idea. (If any remain) But who is going to do that and when? In the meantime are we to pay the other 99.99% super salaries hoping they would sit under a bodhi tree and reform themselves?

I am for senior officers getting more. I am for clerks, peons and others getting same.

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Postby Tanaji » 26 Mar 2008 15:23

The PSU employees want a 100% hike and are not satisfied with their 40%

http://in.rediff.com/money/2008/mar/26pay.htm

When I see their performance in AAI etc. they are not worth a 4% hike.

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Postby satya » 26 Mar 2008 17:44

A lot of trimming will happen by 2015 when most of the Govt. employees in their 50s will retire . When the last pay commission's report was accepted , most state govt. and GoI silently went ahead by abolishing vacant posts and those of retirees and a new policy of contract-base employees was launched .

Now majority of the jobs that are being filled by the govt. ( specially Haryana Govt. ) are in Health . education & vocational training and mainly for Class-2 ranks and above and few in class -3 ranks rarely for class-4. Abolishing posts in Class-4 ie peon types will help the govt. finances in both long n short term since the teeth to tail ratio for any Govt. deptt. has one senior babu having min. 50+ employees in Class-3 and Class-4 ranks.

A bit off topic , implementing Sixth Pay Commission will mean fat commission /corruption for Finance Ministers of States since they have the authority to merge previous pay scale or even slightly edge up the pay scale to new higher pay level .

And trust me a lot of this will happen since now pay scales have been revised down to 20 from existing 35 !. Now here's where the Finance Ministries of States will see how to balance it and how to throw it off balance ( it was one of the reasons why 5th pay commission was so expensive !)

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Postby Suppiah » 26 Mar 2008 17:54

Satya, any demographic statistic available that say most will retire by 2015? Does not seem that long to wait to get rid of bulk of parasites, now that we are in 2008.

The parasite gangs and Stalinists have already seen this contracting thing and are shouting about it if you see CITU reaction.

Recruitments have been stopped for many years that has affected many depts. In the Bangalore Water example, there are less employees now than 25 years ago, during which time pop. has multiplied many times over!

But pay commission or someone has to look at innovative things - for instance instead of recruiting 600+ parasites afresh, why not transfer AAI parasites heating chairs in Bangalore airport? They get jobs in same city, dont have to travel much, and bribe potential is quite good (ask the 66000 guys that applied!). And tax payers have same number of palanquins to carry.

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Postby SwamyG » 26 Mar 2008 18:51

Corruption is part of the system. In USA there are plenty of professions that are low paying, yet the corruption is not endemic in those professions.

I can't understand why any revision includes pensioners too?

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Postby abhishek » 26 Mar 2008 19:10

The lifestyles of the so called underpaid professions in USA is still reasonable. Also some of them who call themselves underpaid (like teachers) are not really underpaid in my opinion. Their pay is for 9 months, they are free to earn by doing additional work in the other three months (work is not difficult to get).

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Postby Kakkaji » 26 Mar 2008 20:11

SwamyG wrote:Corruption is part of the system. In USA there are plenty of professions that are low paying, yet the corruption is not endemic in those professions.


In the US, the chances of getting caught are quite high. And if you are caught, the trial, conviction and punishment happen relatively swiftly. So the risk/ benefit ratio is much higher than in India.

yvijay
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Postby yvijay » 26 Mar 2008 20:19

I have to agree here with satya. There has been total freeze in hiring at class - IV level. Everything at that level is 'outsourced' now. Drivers, sweepers, security gaurds etc are now contracted to the private agencies. This is with regards to BSNL. I don't know about other companies.


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