Indian Autos Thread

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 26 Mar 2009 12:49

VOA:

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 26 Mar 2009 12:52

Nano Could Threaten Used Car Market:

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Mar 2009 13:13

A look behind the scenes on some of the small components which make up the Nano. The Nano is touching the auto industry and its ancillaries in a way that has never happened in the last 80-90 years. A fitting answer to all those who were conjecturing that India was reinventing the Habib Sitara!

PS: Does the Habib Sitara cost more than the Nano?? That would be the height of our neighbour's ingenuity!

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 26 Mar 2009 13:38

Here is an old article on the Nano. The comparison is with Habib Sitara and a Srilankan small car. See the photos.

Sitara is supposed to be priced at Rs.1.59 lakhs. Indian rupee or Pakistani rupee I have no idea.

Nano

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 26 Mar 2009 21:10

A very favourable review from Autocar.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Mar 2009 09:51

Another good word on the Nano, surprisingly from the Atlanticist IHT (NYT's European affiliate):

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/25/ ... s/nano.php

Note that they did have to tack on the news of Tata's credit downgrade.

amit · Post by **amit** » 27 Mar 2009 13:21

SITARA -THE CART OOPS! 'CAR' MADE IN PAKISTAN

Amjad Mehmud, chief executive of Habib Maritime which owns Habib Motors, has something nice to say about the Nano

Mehmud says that he is impressed with the Nano. ‘‘I've not seen the launch on TV today but I've seen pictures of the Nano a few months ago,'' he says. But that's improbable considering how secretive the Tatas were about every aspect of the car. ‘‘I saw pictures of the car a long time ago,'' Mehmud insists. He even remembers the colour of the car in the images ‘‘light blue''.

Needless to say, he recognises that Nano and Sitara are in vastly different technological leagues. ‘‘The Tatas could accomplish this feat because of the economics of scale that is available in India. We don't have that in Pakistan,'' he says.

However, by this time his Pakiness takes over. Just check out the reason he gives for Sitara's "failure" :

The reason why Sitara has fared so poorly, he says, ‘‘is that the middleclass Pakistani is sophisticated and image conscious.

And he thinks the way forward for the Sitara is:

The way forward for Sitara is by metamorphosing into a taxi. Habib Motors is expecting government approval to finally come through by the end of this month. And when it does, Sitara hopes to change the complexion of Pakistani streets by replacing the thrilling autorickshaws and weather beaten taxis. In anticipation of the government approval, the company has been building a plant in Hub, Balochistan, which will have the capability to manufacture 12,000 units every year.

And Mehmud Mia wants a piece of the good press Ratan Tata got for himself with the thought of making a four wheeler affordable enough for folks who travel in two-wheelers.

The Sitara project was first inspired by routine bike accidents in Pakistan. An enduring image in Mehmud's head is that of five men {note no wimmen or children - so he's being politically correct?} going somewhere on a motorcycle.

Don't get worked up you SDRE jingos, Mehmud Mia is just doing what Pakis do the best that is take someone else's thoughts and ideas and parrot them as their own.

Also he says that the government is not supporting his super car project:

But the government, he says, has been throttling the venture right from the very beginning. Sitara has painfully procured countless clearances and a few more are still pending.

And in the very next para his Pakiness comes to its own with a typical brand of LaWhori logic:

‘‘You can draw a border between India and Pakistan,'' the executive says, ‘‘but the mindset of bureaucracy is the same.''

WTF Mehmud Mia who the hell told you that the Indian bureaucracy put hurdles in front of the Nano? Haven't you read that Modi move heaven and earth to give an alternative piece of land for the Nano project and that even if he had failed to do so there were several other states standing in line to do the same?

There's a English kahawat Mia Saab: "A bad workman usually quarrels with his tools."

And a Paki blames his neighbour for lack of tools and intelligence to use them.

Alert: Jingos, all this is for entertainment only, please just enjoy and don't increase your BP unnecessarily!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Mar 2009 20:40

I couldnt stop laughing seeing this Sitara. "Naam Kharab Kar Diya apne HAL Sitara ka". Who could think that is a car, it is looking like more of a golf cart or the pullers in Airports. This should seriously be posted in the humour thread.

rajkhalsa · Post by **rajkhalsa** » 27 Mar 2009 21:36

suryag wrote:I couldnt stop laughing seeing this Sitara. "Naam Kharab Kar Diya apne HAL Sitara ka". Who could think that is a car, it is looking like more of a golf cart or the pullers in Airports. This should seriously be posted in the humour thread.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Mar 2009 21:39

Bliss to shift the Sitara CEO interview to the BENIS dhaga for further detailed study and review by LMU mullahs..

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Mar 2009 17:38

'Singur people want Nano back'

Am shocked. Shocked, I tell ya..../snark.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 29 Mar 2009 00:58

vsudhir wrote:'Singur people want Nano back'

Am shocked. Shocked, I tell ya..../snark.

Too late. It would not be a "return" if it happens but a second plant for Nano if the demand from rest of the (developing)world is too huge to be met by sanand plant alone. Some of the ancillary parts suppliers are already having their plants there. The villagers having been disciplined by move of Tatas would make sure no one protests again.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Mar 2009 02:29

Those buggers and mamata lovers can go enjoy fruits of whatever 2 bit chini company plant is being opened there. WB revels in shooting itself in the foot and then claiming they are a victim onlee!

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Mar 2009 03:32

Raja Bose wrote:Those buggers and mamata lovers can go enjoy fruits of whatever 2 bit chini company plant is being opened there. WB revels in shooting itself in the foot and then claiming they are a victim onlee!

I dont belive most people were against the plant. Mamta just got a small number of poeple to supoort her, and created t apolitical mess. Hopufully people will remember to protest, next time some idiot politican does something simmilar.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Mar 2009 04:37

Rishirishi,

The core group of mischief makers is always small...but you know how it all works out

That core group incites the larger group of gullibles and convinces them: (1) They can get their land back (2) Corporations are evil and Tata is up to no good (3) They can bring Tata to their knees and squeeze them for money - which will make everybody a rich happy fella. West Bengal, seems to be particularly prone to this kind of gullible behaviour....the average bengali has a high opinion of his intellect and is very vain about it....yet the reality is that our commercial sense, common sense and street smart skills are usually nil. Hence, whichever unscrupulous element wants to exploit us, just panders to our vanity and our 'intelligence' and we are ready to shovel shit for them in a heart beat!

While the actual hungama was going on, you had these goons like Becharam Manna openly talking of bringing Tata to their knees and the Singur villagers strutting around boasting how they are punishing a big evil corporation like Tata and gassing about people's will and all that. Now these same villagers do not have my sympathy. Initially they had a genuine grievance which could have been resolved but instead they proved themselves to be gullible and idiotic and tried to extort impossible demands from one of the few companies in India which has social conscience. They forgot that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush and chose to chase after the birds in the bush which Mamata & co promised them....only to find that those birds were just lumps of turd!

Now where is Mamata and her much vaunted brigade who were going to bring Tata to their knees....all that is left are the poor villagers who neither have land nor have compensation, while the core group of mischief makers is living comfortably.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Mar 2009 19:20

Raja Bose wrote:Rishirishi,

The core group of mischief makers is always small...but you know how it all works out That core group incites the larger group of gullibles and convinces them: (1) They can get their land back (2) Corporations are evil and Tata is up to no good (3) They can bring Tata to their knees and squeeze them for money - which will make everybody a rich happy fella. West Bengal, seems to be particularly prone to this kind of gullible behaviour....the average bengali has a high opinion of his intellect and is very vain about it....yet the reality is that our commercial sense, common sense and street smart skills are usually nil. Hence, whichever unscrupulous element wants to exploit us, just panders to our vanity and our 'intelligence' and we are ready to shovel shit for them in a heart beat!

While the actual hungama was going on, you had these goons like Becharam Manna openly talking of bringing Tata to their knees and the Singur villagers strutting around boasting how they are punishing a big evil corporation like Tata and gassing about people's will and all that. Now these same villagers do not have my sympathy. Initially they had a genuine grievance which could have been resolved but instead they proved themselves to be gullible and idiotic and tried to extort impossible demands from one of the few companies in India which has social conscience. They forgot that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush and chose to chase after the birds in the bush which Mamata & co promised them....only to find that those birds were just lumps of turd!

Now where is Mamata and her much vaunted brigade who were going to bring Tata to their knees....all that is left are the poor villagers who neither have land nor have compensation, while the core group of mischief makers is living comfortably.

I am sure that in the heart of most bengalis, there must have been at least some sence of irraitation when they saw the Nano rolling out. A discussion will now follow, about he validity of the "greedy corp" argument. People will think about who is really being brought to the knees? and who the real loosers are. I noted that Mamta was on the defennsive the day Nano was launched. Whining about some kind of conspiracy.

L

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2009 22:16

much of the bengali talent live outside bengal. this is a trend common to overpopulated and/or industrially weak states like up, bihar, assam, kerala.

bangalore is really in kerala

a tremendous number of kerala people here

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 30 Mar 2009 02:48

Singha wrote:much of the bengali talent live outside bengal. this is a trend common to overpopulated and/or industrially weak states like up, bihar, assam, kerala.

bangalore is really in kerala a tremendous number of kerala people here

I think we sometimes may be underestimating the average uneducated person on the street. They may not have the acess to sofisticated analyses from BR

but they know that a car factory means jobs, and improved prospects. They know why Mamta pulled off the stunt.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Mar 2009 05:02

^^^They did after Tata called Mamata's bluff....till then they were all willing to shovel poopoo for Mamata didi. Indian public is still gullible by-and-large esp. in rural areas where caste, community, jaati ityadi still hold sway over one's emotions.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Mar 2009 06:50

Yes that is why India needs Gujarat, they are too busy doing business and trying to improve their lives to waste time. I sincerely believe that the the common Indian needs to know that it is possible in des.

bart · Post by **bart** » 30 Mar 2009 08:17

Rishirishi wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Those buggers and mamata lovers can go enjoy fruits of whatever 2 bit chini company plant is being opened there. WB revels in shooting itself in the foot and then claiming they are a victim onlee!

I dont belive most people were against the plant. Mamta just got a small number of poeple to supoort her, and created t apolitical mess. Hopufully people will remember to protest, next time some idiot politican does something simmilar.

A large number of the "poor displaced protestors" were not from Singur and had nothing to do with it. They were an assorted group of Naxals and Center for Science and Environment type professional troublemakers.

There is also a rumor going around that the old man at Bajaj had something to do with it behind the scenes as well. Due to the Singur fiasco, Tata's mass manufacture of the Nano has been pushed back by about a year and a half, which reduces the lead that Tata had over the rival Bajaj-Renault low cost car.

bart · Post by **bart** » 30 Mar 2009 08:35

sanjaykumar wrote:Yes that is why India needs Gujarat, they are too busy doing business and trying to improve their lives to waste time. I sincerely believe that the the common Indian needs to know that it is possible in des.

Its nothing unique to Gujarat, any industrialized state in India like MH, TN, NCR etc or any state other than WB/Kerala would have lapped up that project. I think Tata with all their good intentions made a major blunder by trusting WB, not the WB govt but the overall social and business environment in WB.

I wonder why they never tried TN, maybe the sops offered by WB (too good to be true eventually) were not matched. There are massive new factories coming up every month in the Kanchipuram-Sriperumbudur belt including 200-1000 acre auto industry campuses for Renault, Mercedes trucks, Apollo Tyres etc so 1000 acres of land for Nano would have been peanuts.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Mar 2009 09:13

What WB/Kerala need are not these heavy industries, but higher value ones provided the right climate is established. These are fertile lands and overpopulated too with its own challenges for industries which require large amounts of land. TN, KA and AP in the south are best bets for heavy industry with large tracts of fallow land. It is the intelligent option to setup such industrial belts in these states and R&D type establishments in places like WB or Kerala.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Mar 2009 09:40

Bade ji, I don't know about Kerala but R&D center in WB for a indig. auto company would almost certainly mean pressure from various politicos for unionizing the researchers resulting in infinite chai-biskoot sessions and 'michils' (processions) instead of research!

Work environment, ethics and people's attitudes have to change! I think it is changing albeit slowly as the old commie fogies are dying out and are getting replaced with younger generation who worship Benjamins more than Marx.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Mar 2009 09:53

Both in WB as well as Kerala, campus violence is on the increase. So I am not hoping on marx waadis and other assorted flag waadis like the eccentric mamata types to change overnight to benign forms of political philosophy. So michils and samarams are all not going away either. Add to that the general unruliness of the average abdul in yindoo lands leave little hope. But then we should still not stop dreaming. At least WB, did have a eco-system of research in the near past...Kerala traditions of research has been more in the far-past more like a few hundred years ago maybe.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 30 Mar 2009 10:12

Kerala has no land and other resources to have heavy industries. We would do well with R&D kind of work, provided it happens in a protected environment like a tech park.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Mar 2009 11:34

Rishirishi wrote:
Singha wrote:much of the bengali talent live outside bengal. this is a trend common to overpopulated and/or industrially weak states like up, bihar, assam, kerala.

bangalore is really in kerala a tremendous number of kerala people here
I think we sometimes may be underestimating the average uneducated person on the street. They may not have the acess to sofisticated analyses from BR but they know that a car factory means jobs, and improved prospects. They know why Mamta pulled off the stunt.

There was a time when I thought our politicians are so smart, they will come out of most calamities unscathed. But the Tata episode seems to be somehow stuck with Mamta forever and has shown that sometimes they are really dumb!

I cannot believe that she screwed up big time . The thing is , if it was any other factory, she would have probably gotten away with it. But with the popularity of Nano , she took on the whole of Indian press, national pride and a respected company all at the same time.

IMO, she underestimated the other side, seems ignorant of other states who are willing to industrialize and honestly overestimated her strengths.

In a way this is good! This sends a message to all politicians across the spectrum!

Lauka · Post by **Lauka** » 30 Mar 2009 15:37

German answer to nano.
http://www.rense.com/general85/car.htm

Lauka · Post by **Lauka** » 30 Mar 2009 15:58

From VW
http://www.caradvice.com.au/25172/volks ... mical-car/

Cost approx. 35,000 rupees !

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Mar 2009 01:34

Lauka,

This has been a concept car before. Not really comparable to the Nano coz it only seems to seat 1 person (so not even equivalent to a motorbike).

Wonder where are the safety Ayatollahs on this one?

sivabala · Post by **sivabala** » 31 Mar 2009 06:51

Does anybody have opinion on the front positioning of tata nano's fuel tank. I guess this will be a night mare. In any accident involving frontal collision the fuel tank will rupture easily because of its position. If the occupants could not come out of the car quickly enough any fire that may be caused during the impact will be fatal.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Mar 2009 07:25

Ok folks while enjoying a soak in jacuzzi today I hit upon an idea why not use nano engine to develop a UAV for IA Or IN?

nano engine:

2 cylinder petrol with Bosch multi-point fuel injection (single injector)
all aluminium 33 horsepower (25 kW) 624 cc (38 cu in)

AAI Corporation, Israel Aircraft Industries
RQ-2 Pioneer UAV

Power Plant: Sachs 2-stroke crankcase-scavenged 2-cylinder horizontally-opposed piston engine,
simultaneously firing 26 hp (19 kW) or alternative RQ-2C: UEL AR-741 rotary engine; 28.3 kW (38 hp)

AAI Searcher

More than 100 Searcher IIs are also in-service with the Indian Air Force. In 2002, one of these was shot down deep over Pakistani territory by Pakistan Air Force.

read more about engines
http://www.uasresearch.org/UserFiles/Fi ... ngines.pdf

Long ago our estimeed BRFite JCcage had said that ADA od PSU was developing lot of UAV engine as usual nothing happens in OFB or PSU we continue to import all kinds of garbage including AK-47 and its bullets

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Mar 2009 07:28

Nano is an IC engine (Internal combustion) is not Ford Pinto which was External combustion car.

The nano has fuel tank in front AFAIK and engine in the back. The nano has a break neck speed of 60 MPH

vina · Post by **vina** » 31 Mar 2009 07:53

sivabala wrote:Does anybody have opinion on the front positioning of tata nano's fuel tank. I guess this will be a night mare. In any accident involving frontal collision the fuel tank will rupture easily because of its position. If the occupants could not come out of the car quickly enough any fire that may be caused during the impact will be fatal.

.

Very true indeed. You should start an educational campaign against that of course. I would suggest a letter writing campaign for a start.

However, while you are at it, also include another very popular car , a couple of hundred thousand get sold around the world, also very popular in India. I am talking about the Honda City /Jazz/Fit . Just like the Nano, this car too has the petrol tank under the front seats !. However, the evil global auto press, sucks up to Honda and claims that this is the safest position for the fuel tank!. Also check out the Honda Website and their tall claims about safety etc for Jazz. Liars all .

Oh, also include all the rear engined layout cars while you are at it. May I suggest Porsches as , the excotic italian supercars like Lamborghini, Ferrari etc. All are death traps, and could light a fire under your ar*e if you get into a collision with fatal results.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Mar 2009 09:10

^^^ AoA Vina saar your post =

tchandr · Post by **tchandr** » 31 Mar 2009 09:47

sivabala wrote:Does anybody have opinion on the front positioning of tata nano's fuel tank. I guess this will be a night mare. In any accident involving frontal collision the fuel tank will rupture easily because of its position. If the occupants could not come out of the car quickly enough any fire that may be caused during the impact will be fatal.

1. the fuel tank is not in front, well the fuel inlet is located in front but the tank with a capacity of 15 L is located below the seat.
2. during the crash test attention was paid to fuel tank to to make sure that it will not rupture.
3. In the front there is crumple zone and the spare tire which will absorb all the impact.

/ "rant mode on" /does a bike explode when involved in a head on collision because the fuel tank is in front and why no sound on omni which conveniently bypassed all the safety regulations / "rant mode off" /

siva, i understand that your question is genuine and meant no disrespect.

Staying on with Nano, spent the Sunday watching the reviews on the news channel, for once i was not screaming obscenities at NDTV

edit 1: read Vina's post now, Honda jazz was to be launched in India, any news on the time line?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 31 Mar 2009 11:14

It is evident that Tata has anticipated (who wouldn't?) the obvious criticisms, and I am sure the design constraints would have set accordingly. The spare tyre up front is in fact a magnificient idea from a crash safety angle.

amit · Post by **amit** » 31 Mar 2009 15:55

Here's an article on the Nano worth reading. San Francisco Chronicle

Don't dismiss the Nano as a small, poor man's car that will cause a mere ripple on the world market. The Nano is a radical innovation, with the potential to revolutionize automobile manufacturing and distribution.

The tiny Nano incorporates three innovations, which together make it huge. First, the Nano uses a modular design that enables a knowledgeable mechanic to assemble the car in a workshop. Thus, Tata can outsource assembly to independent workshops that can then assemble the car on buyers' orders. This innovation not only removes costly labor from the manufacturer's side but also allows for distributed entrepreneurship on the dealer's side.

Second, the low cost of the Nano comes from a combination of its no-frills design and its use of numerous lighter components, from simple door handles and bulbs to the transmission and engine parts. The lighter vehicle enables a more energy-efficient engine that gets 67 miles to the gallon.

Third, at just 122 inches long, the Nano is one of the shortest four-passenger cars on the market, yet it allows for ample interior space.

The Nano's dramatically lower price harks back to origins of other radical innovations that reshaped various markets. In 1908, Henry Ford revolutionized automobile manufacturing and ownership by introducing the Ford Model T at $850, when rival cars sold for more than $2,000. In the 1930s, Ferdinand Porsche opened car ownership to the German masses with the introduction of a simple, economic "people's car": the Volkswagen. In 1906, King Gillette revolutionized the razor market and initiated daily shaving with the introduction of the safety razor with blades that sold for 5 cents apiece, a fraction of the rival razor system of that time.

The problems of energy scarcity, environmental pollution and road congestion should not discourage Ratan Tata from making and selling as many Nanos as he can. First, the Nano is more energy efficient and affordable than any other car. Moreover, the explosion of vehicles will force regulators to control pollution, pressure governments to build better roads and motivate innovators to produce more efficient engines. The Nano has the potential of flourishing despite the recession or softening its sting because of its extraordinary low price. It's a radical innovation precisely because it is a poor man's car.

I suppose the article is good because its written by someone who understands the importance of Nano:

Gerard J. Tellis is the director of the Center for Global Innovation, Neely chair of American Enterprise and professor of marketing at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business.

amit · Post by **amit** » 31 Mar 2009 16:13

Regarding the debate on Singur villagers versus Tata some observations:

1) A small minority of folks in the Singur area were actually opposed to the factory, around 1,000 farmers or so. It was much more earlier but the revised compensation package and the prospect of jobs/training swayed a majority of the folks. Some prominent Trinamool leaders became labour sub-contractors, cement suppliers etc.

2) I don't think Mamata's ultimate aim was to actually scuttle the plant. What she was trying to do was to provoke the CPI(M) into a fight or police action so that the situation would snowball much like what happened in Nandigram. She wanted to make political capital out of that just like Nandigram.

3) The CPI(M) cottoned on to this and thus there was no police action despite the fact that the National Highway was closed by Mamata days on an end. Neither were the ever vigilant CPI(M) cadre visible near Singur. Remember in Nandigram CPI(M) cadre from outside the Nandigram area were brought in to disrupt the protests with a killing and raping spree.

4) Also, the Mamata rally was at some point of time hijacked by an assortment of NGOs and former Naxalites who took advantage of a glaring Mamata weakness that has been her Achilles Heel for long - while she's great at building up crowd hysteria and support she pathetic at organisation and she has no visible second in command. This loophole was exploited by the Naxalites/NGOs both at Nandigram and Singur. So much so Mamata, in Singur at least, became totally dependent on this group of agent provocateurs. Incidentally it was this group which attacked the security guard in the compound to stir things up.

5) At the end of the day the CPI(M) is as much to blame as Mamata. Despite Buddhadev's support for the project it was not very popular among a section of the CPI(M) who had Karat's backing. It is this segment which decided that even if the project was cancelled they would use it to politically tarnish Mamata to give her an anti-industry, anti-development image. Hence pleas by the Tatas for police escort for their foreign consultants were not honoured. This triggered the decision to relocate the factory.

6) Ultimately dirty politics West Bengal style killed the project. However, spare a thought for the ordinary Bengali residents of West Bengal before crucifying him. For the past 30 years the political choice before them have been the CPI(M), a feeble State Congress which usually consisted of netas who either secretly took money from the CPI(M) or were more busy ensuring no other neta got ahead of them. And then it was Mamata-led Trinamool. Mamata briefly captured the popular imagination but her lack of organisational skill and inability to think before leaping into something has totally tarnished her reputation.

Tell me if you were a voter and you had to choose either a corrupt Stalinist party or a loose canon like Mamata who would you vote for? Ideology has nothing to do with it.

Oh yes add to the above mix CPI(M) unparalleled ability to rig elections and distribute voter IDs to illegal immigrants from Bangladesh which has altered the demographic status of not only the border districts but also Kolkata which has become or almost become - if I'm not mistaken - a Muslim majority city.

JMT

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Apr 2009 08:29

BW's Bruce Nussbaum on Tata Nano's innovation:

http://feedroom.businessweek.com/index. ... %3B+design