Indian Autos Thread

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby rachel » 15 Jul 2009 08:04

I am a big fan of Modi and Gujurat, BUT there are some things they do there that irritate me. Sometimes the 'money at all costs' philosophy rankles.

I am not sure that we should be cheering AMW so lustily. Did I read correctly that it has a 'Chinese cabin'?

Another Gujurati firm has ambitious plans to build an electric car at a Nano price. The problem is this OREVA uses CHinese technology (from their FLYBO electric car).

I dont want Chinese junk finding backdoor entries into India thru Gujurati firms.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 15 Jul 2009 10:04

bart wrote:
You probably saw the XF. The XJ was just launched in London last week and won't be delivered to customers till the end of the year.

Yeah, its too bad they dont have the leaping cat on the front of either the XF or XJ, though the grille looks nice its not distinctive as before.


Foot in mouth. :( you are right.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby ashish raval » 15 Jul 2009 16:12

rachel wrote:I am a big fan of Modi and Gujurat, BUT there are some things they do there that irritate me. Sometimes the 'money at all costs' philosophy rankles.

I am not sure that we should be cheering AMW so lustily. Did I read correctly that it has a 'Chinese cabin'?

Another Gujurati firm has ambitious plans to build an electric car at a Nano price. The problem is this OREVA uses CHinese technology (from their FLYBO electric car).

I dont want Chinese junk finding backdoor entries into India thru Gujurati firms.


Why do you think that Chinese junk will only come into India through Gujarati firms, I bet it will first enter through Bengali firms. Check this out :
http://www.livemint.com/2008/11/05004904/Bengal-may-offer-Singur-land-t.html
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/Economy/Infrastructure/Chinas-FAW-keen-on-auto-manufacturing-unit-in-West-Bengal-/articleshow/4396717.cms

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby rachel » 15 Jul 2009 20:17

Oh Ahshish, because of my political orientation (fiercely anti-secular and anti-Commie). I EXPECT Bengal govt to be traitorous cretins bowing to Communist China and Islamists, vicously harmful of Indian interests.

I expect Bengal to do things like that. It only makes sense that that Commie hell-hole will kow tow to their Chinese masters. What else would they do?

It just disappoints me more when Gujuratis ally with Chinese junk-vendors to earn a few shekels.

Part of my irrational hero-worship and fantasy of Modi Gujurat as a nirvana of Hindutva power.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby bart » 15 Jul 2009 21:03

You guys need to take the next exit from the "Indian Autos Thread" that says "To Whines Thread" :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby putnanja » 16 Jul 2009 02:22

Hino Motors forays into Indian market

Hino Motors Corporation (HMC), a Toyota Group company, on Thursday, announced the launch of its first dealership in India through Bangalore-based Cauvery Motors.
...
Hino, on the occasion, launched two trucks — FM8J and FL8J priced at around Rs 40 lakh (fully built units) — from the Hino 500 series, it’s fastest selling vehicles in the overseas market. The launch of the bus is scheduled for September.
...
Executive Vice President Amol J Sandil said “Though Hino is directly entering the market for the first time, we have had the presence through Ashiok Leyland for over ten years.” The firm has also identified body builders, including Kailash Vahan, Pune and JCBL.

On the targets set for the fiscal year 2009-10 Nakamura said “We plan to sell about 700 units from this day to March 2010, and have already received orders for ten trippers.”
...

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 16 Jul 2009 11:45

rachel wrote:Oh Ahshish, because of my political orientation (fiercely anti-secular and anti-Commie). I EXPECT Bengal govt to be traitorous cretins bowing to Communist China and Islamists, vicously harmful of Indian interests.

I expect Bengal to do things like that. It only makes sense that that Commie hell-hole will kow tow to their Chinese masters. What else would they do?

It just disappoints me more when Gujuratis ally with Chinese junk-vendors to earn a few shekels.

Part of my irrational hero-worship and fantasy of Modi Gujurat as a nirvana of Hindutva power.


Boss, let us not mix issues here. AMW started its works in an arid area in Gujrat when all the auto makers were making beeline for Pune or Chennai belt. It shows that Modi was keen on getting Auto industry to Gujrat much before Tata Nano happened (unlike what people think). What AMW does within its plant is none of the business of Modi or any Government for that matter.

Btw, I know that chassis and cabin were of Chinese origin (and some more parts) when they started. I however do not claim to know anything about their source of these parts in the current vehicles that they are selling.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Gerard » 18 Jul 2009 02:58

Mumbaikar gets first ‘Nano’

Image
Chairman of Tata Motors, Ratan Tata hands over the key of the first Nano car to Ashok Raghunath Vichare in Mumbai on Friday.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby BajKhedawal » 25 Jul 2009 01:47

Seems like Brazil has become a willing Indian Colony, with Indian Autos, Helios, Hindi TV Serials locally made, and Foods. If that’s not diffusion of Culture and Technology, then what is?

8) Way to go Mahindra^2 8)
Indian utility vehicle major Mahindra & Mahindra just got a shot in the arm when one of its Scorpio pick-ups did the unthinkable - take third place in the production category of the tough Rally dos Sertoes in Brazil, racing against the might of the Mitsubishis, Fords and Chevrolets.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby rachel » 25 Jul 2009 06:35

BajKhedawal wrote:Seems like Brazil has become a willing Indian Colony, with Indian Autos, Helios, Hindi TV Serials locally made, and Foods. If that’s not diffusion of Culture and Technology, then what is?

8]


Appreciate your enthusiasm, but this is real hyperbole. So Mahindra won a race in Brazil.. fine. More important is: how many Mahindras are sold annually in Brazil?

Let's not exaggerate.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby BajKhedawal » 25 Jul 2009 08:31

rachel wrote:Appreciate your enthusiasm, but this is real hyperbole. So Mahindra won a race in Brazil.. fine. More important is: how many Mahindras are sold annually in Brazil?
Let's not exaggerate.

Oh Rachelji why be such a skeptic, when you can be a believer. Come on now sing with me: “I believe I can fly; I believe I can touch the sky; I think about it every night and day; Spread my wings and fly away; I believe I can soar……”

Assembling started 18 months ago, with a capacity to produce 5000 vehicles annually:
India's Mahindra starts vehicle assembly in Brazil

Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:44am EST

MUMBAI, Jan 24 (Reuters) - Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd (MAHM.BO), India's top utility vehicle maker, said on Thursday it had started assembling its Pik-Up trucks and Scorpio sport utility in Brazil as it seeks to expand in Latin America. The facility in Manaus belongs to partner Bramont-Montadora, and has a capacity to assemble 5,000 units annually, it said in a statement.

"The Brazilian economy and automotive industry have strategic importance for Mahindra... and helps consolidate our presence," Pravin Shah, executive vice president of Mahindra's international operations, said.

Mahindra earlier this month began assembling the Scorpio for the first time outside India, with a local partner in Egypt. It also exports the Scorpio, known as Goa in some markets, to Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South America and Australia.

Mahindra, which aims to double its domestic sales and quadruple exports by 2010, is scheduled to launch the Scorpio in the United States in 2009. (Reporting by Rina Chandran; Editing by Ranjit Gangadharan)

Now on to South Africa
Mahindra may start assembling in South Africa in 2010

And finally The final frointer (sarry for the hyperbole)

Mahindra & Mahindra to enter US market

Washington, July 15 (IANS) Indian vehicle manufacturer Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd is set to enter the US market with a diesel-powered pickup later this year, the first vehicle produced in India for sale in America.
The name of the pickup has not been released. Global Vehicles USA Inc., of suburban Atlanta, is the truck's independent distributor. Global Vehicles is setting up a network of about 330 US dealers, the auto publication Automotive News reported.
The specific sales date is undetermined. The Environment Protection Authority and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration must issue approvals, which are expected in late summer or early autumn, it said.
Sales volume is expected to be small this year, with only selected markets receiving the pickup. The major rollout is scheduled for next year, with Global aiming for 50,000 pickup sales annually.
An SUV will debut in 18 months at the earliest. Other unnamed models are at least four years away, Automotive News said.
These are the Mahindra vehicles that will be sold in the US for the 2010 through 2012 model years, according to the publication:
Pickup: Mahindra's US model is based on the diesel pickup it sells in India. The model has been re-engineered for US regulations and consumer tastes. A six-speed automatic transmission is standard, as are antilock brakes, stability control, air conditioning, and power door locks.
The pickup will be offered with one engine: a 140-hp, 2.2-litre, common-rail, turbocharged, diesel four-cylinder that produces 236 pound-feet of torque.
The diesel system is designed by Bosch; the engine was developed by Mahindra. The base pickup has two doors, two-wheel drive, and a sticker price between $22,000 and $25,000.
The top-of-the-line four-door model with four-wheel drive and leather seats will be priced between $24,000 and $27,000. The pickup is a little larger than the Ford Ranger.
SUV: The SUV will be a US version of the Mahindra Scorpio. Timing for US sales is fluid; it will arrive either in late 2010 or sometime in 2011. A seven-passenger model with a third-row seat for children is under consideration.
The SUV is based on the pickup platform and will share the diesel engine.
(Arun Kumar can be contacted at arun.kumar@ians.in)


I would gladly eat my words if you can show even a single SUV Sitara manufactured outside of Bakistan.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2009 08:47

why even compare with pak ?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby BajKhedawal » 25 Jul 2009 10:57

Rahul M wrote:why even compare with pak ?


Well Canada then! Oh wait is'nt it the 51st?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2009 11:34

dream big ! remember APJ's teachings !

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby ArmenT » 25 Jul 2009 11:42

Fiat, Tata to sell Nano in Latin America: Ratan Tata
Milan: Italian carmaker Fiat SpA and Tata Motors Ltd intend to sell Tata's ultra-low-cost Nano model jointly in Latin America, the Indian firm's chief Ratan Tata said in an interview published on Thursday.

Tata, who is also a Fiat director, told La Stampa newspaper the two were studying further cooperation to add to existing projects such as a partnership to produce engines in India.

"We have various projects, to take the Nano to Latin America together, to share platforms for new cars, we have projects for (Fiat lorry unit) Iveco and also for us to sell Ferrari and Maserati," Tata said.
<snip.... />

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby John Snow » 25 Jul 2009 23:47

Meanwhile we have very stiff competition from PRC in the two wheeler segment.

From 0 to 100 MPH in zero seconds

Image

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 26 Jul 2009 03:52

The Fiat-Tata relationship is something to watch out for. As part of my work I get to interact with both of them and Magneti Marelli - some interesting stuff should result esp. from Tata which is even now seen by most as a manufacturer of cheap or crude vehicles. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby svinayak » 26 Jul 2009 04:08

Raja Bose wrote:The Fiat-Tata relationship is something to watch out for. As part of my work I get to interact with both of them and Magneti Marelli - some interesting stuff should result esp. from Tata which is even now seen by most as a manufacturer of cheap or crude vehicles. :twisted:

There will be a change is percpetion for sure. Consumer perception is the key. If Tata can create the right one and ride on it it can create a global brand in Europe and NA.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby munna » 26 Jul 2009 06:18

Acharya wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:The Fiat-Tata relationship is something to watch out for. As part of my work I get to interact with both of them and Magneti Marelli - some interesting stuff should result esp. from Tata which is even now seen by most as a manufacturer of cheap or crude vehicles. :twisted:

There will be a change is percpetion for sure. Consumer perception is the key. If Tata can create the right one and ride on it it can create a global brand in Europe and NA.

There are rumblings in the Tata setup about making Tata Prima, a modern Italian design sedan which could change the perception of Tata both within India and abroad. Also my cousin (2 times forcibly removed) was talking about a possible production of Land Rover LRX model in India in about 2-3 years from now, LR quality at Indian prices would make for a killer SUV anywhere.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 27 Jul 2009 16:29

munna wrote:
Acharya wrote:There will be a change is percpetion for sure. Consumer perception is the key. If Tata can create the right one and ride on it it can create a global brand in Europe and NA.

There are rumblings in the Tata setup about making Tata Prima, a modern Italian design sedan which could change the perception of Tata both within India and abroad. Also my cousin (2 times forcibly removed) was talking about a possible production of Land Rover LRX model in India in about 2-3 years from now, LR quality at Indian prices would make for a killer SUV anywhere.


They better improve the God damn plastics in the inside. Even the best of their cars have awful plastics (reference -Safari). Their engine strategy is all in doldrums. The external designing has become good but transmission, engine and plastic quality remain questionable. The whole Fiat range complementing the indigenous range falls flat when they talk about markets outside India as Fiat has its own ambitions there. There is no replacement of Indica line on the horizon yet.

So yes opportunities are many, hope they get the act right.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby vera_k » 28 Jul 2009 13:04

VikB wrote:Even the best of their cars have awful plastics (reference -Safari).


What are you comparing this to? Are the plastics at least as good as those in a Hyundai/Kia?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby amit » 28 Jul 2009 13:19

Tata Motors or Mahindra, if they really want to be serious players in the international market will have to have a full range of cars, from the very cheap to the costly, from below 1000cc to over 2500cc. They will need to have a range of SUVs, pick-ups sedans and hatchbacks. If possible a sports model as well.

A car makers' reputation in the eyes of the buying public is not made by one car wonders, however good the Nano is. Tatas will have to introduce a full range both in India as well as abroad. And by full range I don't mean the same car, same engine but one a hatchback the other slightly stretched into a sedan, for ex the Indica and Indigo. They have to be different cars.

If you notice that's how the Korean companies started doing things (and before them the Japanese). Initially Huyndai was know for cheap and crappy cars whose engines used backdated Mitsubishi technology. Now the perception is changing and Huyndai is one of the world's top car companies.

Interestingly the Chinese companies are following the same route. Cherry and Geely make some of the most horrid cars you can imagine - and I'm not even talking about cheap plastics. But they have a full range. Sometime in the future the quality will most likely improve. I recently saw a horrible Geely knock-off of the Honda CRV. It had crappy written all over it but there it was an export model sold in the foreign country to a foreign buyer who probably wanted a cheap car which looked like a SUV-Crossover.

I understand the small demand and a lack of roads in India prevented Tata from developing a full range of cars. However, since things have changed they need to move fast and introduce at least one new model a year. Otherwise they will for ever remain a one car wonder. And Mahindra will remain a niche player in the low cost SUV and pick-up truck space unless it aggressively moves into the passenger car segment.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby amit » 28 Jul 2009 13:29

vera_k wrote:
Even the best of their cars have awful plastics (reference -Safari).


What are you comparing this to? Are the plastics at least as good as those in a Hyundai/Kia?


Vera,

Don't know if you've seen the latest Hyundai/Kia cars. Hyundai's i30 or Kia's new Cerato Forte are as well finished with the some of best interior decor in consumer cars that you can find (meaning the Japanese competitors). Hyundai and its subsidiary have really gone places over the past few years. They are company in a hurry, IMO.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 28 Jul 2009 16:46

Hmm, I wonder what is Tata's goal? I suppose it would be "Sell cars and make money". If they can do it by making just one car (VW Beetle?) they would do it. If they can do it by selling Indicas to African consumers, they would do it.

Does anyone think Tata is INCAPABLE of making nice plastics? GE Plastics can give you ANY type of plastic raw material imaginable, and also help your mould maker with CAM data and models so that you can get flashless, shrinkless parts. It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero.

There is no magic in those things. Given enough money, even I can get them.

What matters are two things. The "design" and the drivetrain. That is what distinguishes a manufacturer. These days "design" is done by the studios, and is once again a "money" thing. Fiat gets the drivetrain.

So, it all falls back into money.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 29 Jul 2009 14:59

amit wrote:


What are you comparing this to? Are the plastics at least as good as those in a Hyundai/Kia?


Vera,

Don't know if you've seen the latest Hyundai/Kia cars. Hyundai's i30 or Kia's new Cerato Forte are as well finished with the some of best interior decor in consumer cars that you can find (meaning the Japanese competitors). Hyundai and its subsidiary have really gone places over the past few years. They are company in a hurry, IMO.


Even the older Hyundai cars have a better finish and plastics than the Mahindra and Tata vehicles.
As Amit has pointed above, the Korean manufacturers seem to be in a hurry. They are giving the Japanese players a run for their money. The Korean govt is giving huge subsidies to the companies to export to the extent that the other companies are perplexed as to how the Korean cars are priced so aggressively (meaning low) inspite of the jacking up of raw material prices (till some time back).
Just a pointer is that in India - the FOB(freight on board) cost of Hyundai cars is LESS than that of Maruti and Tatas for comparable products!!!!!!

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 29 Jul 2009 15:37

Dileep wrote:Hmm, I wonder what is Tata's goal? I suppose it would be "Sell cars and make money". If they can do it by making just one car (VW Beetle?) they would do it. If they can do it by selling Indicas to African consumers, they would do it.

Does anyone think Tata is INCAPABLE of making nice plastics? GE Plastics can give you ANY type of plastic raw material imaginable, and also help your mould maker with CAM data and models so that you can get flashless, shrinkless parts. It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero.

There is no magic in those things. Given enough money, even I can get them.

What matters are two things. The "design" and the drivetrain. That is what distinguishes a manufacturer. These days "design" is done by the studios, and is once again a "money" thing. Fiat gets the drivetrain.

So, it all falls back into money.


I beg to differ.
- Tata Motors Ltd has surely come out of the old days of selling what it can where it can. There is a clear strategy that is developing but it takes time as they are a new entrant. From Nano onwards they have the current Indica - V2, Indigo, Vista, Indigo Vista (about to be launched), Safari. Soon to be launched - sub-Indica platform, Cross over (Innova segment), Prima (Civic range). Combine it with their tie up with Fiat in India and atleast in India they are poised to do pretty well.

- Plastics. GE plastic is a rank wrong example here. They give raw material only much like Bayer, etc but the quality of a dashboard of a car is rather governed other than raw material by the Die manufactured and the moulding machine/process used. This is where the Indian companies get killed.

"It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero."
This is exactly the mindset that we are fighting in the Indian companies. It is not just about the money. It is about mindset, sense for quality and processes that is SORELY lacking in our companies which are still being majorly run by people who consider a Tata and Mahindra as PSUs.
Together with this mindset change, we also have to change how we negotiate with our Tier II suppliers. Those who know it would know what I am pointing at. Plus our Tier II guys need to step up and introduce new technologies.
Last edited by VikB on 30 Jul 2009 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 29 Jul 2009 18:40

VikB wrote:
Dileep wrote:Hmm, I wonder what is Tata's goal? I suppose it would be "Sell cars and make money". If they can do it by making just one car (VW Beetle?) they would do it. If they can do it by selling Indicas to African consumers, they would do it.

Does anyone think Tata is INCAPABLE of making nice plastics? GE Plastics can give you ANY type of plastic raw material imaginable, and also help your mould maker with CAM data and models so that you can get flashless, shrinkless parts. It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero.

There is no magic in those things. Given enough money, even I can get them.

What matters are two things. The "design" and the drivetrain. That is what distinguishes a manufacturer. These days "design" is done by the studios, and is once again a "money" thing. Fiat gets the drivetrain.

So, it all falls back into money.


I beg to differ.
- Tata Motors Ltd has surely come out of the old days of selling what it can where it can. There is a clear strategy that is developing but it takes time as they are a new entrant. From Nano onwards they have the current Indica - V2, Indigo, Vista, Indigo Vista (about to be launched), Safari. Soon to be launched - sub-Indica platform, Cross over (Innova segment), Prima (Civic range). Combine it with their type up with Fiat in India and atleast in India they are poised to do pretty well.

- Plastics. GE plastic is a rank wrong example here. They give raw material only much like Bayer, etc but the quality of a dashboard of a car is rather governed other than raw material by the Die manufactured and the moulding machine/process used. This is where the Indian companies get killed.

"It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero."
This is exactly the mindset that we are fighting in the Indian companies. It is not just about the money. It is about mindset, sense for quality and processes that is SORELY lacking in our companies which are still being majorly run by people who consider a Tata and Mahindra as PSUs.
Together with this mindset change, we also have to change how we negotiate with our Tier II suppliers. Those who know it would know what I am pointing at. Plus our Tier II guys need to step up and introduce new technologies.



You hit bull eye there. However there is another dimension that needs to be looked into. Japan and Korea "reserved" the home market for the domenstic players. In addition the domestic players were given subsidies and incentives to innovate and bing in new tech. The domestic car industry was told to deliver export growth and create world clss products.. In this senario it made sence to invest and create world class produts. This is exactly what the Chinease are doing.

TATA and mahindra are in a very different position. They have to compete with large multinationals who can use their huge sales base to fund development. I

GOI and the industry must start to work hand in hand to create products that can compete globally. I am sure the Indian companies will rise to the challenge. After all, why would not the Indian industrialists want to become global players?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 29 Jul 2009 21:15

VikB wrote:- Plastics. GE plastic is a rank wrong example here. They give raw material only much like Bayer, etc but the quality of a dashboard of a car is rather governed other than raw material by the Die manufactured and the moulding machine/process used. This is where the Indian companies get killed.

What is the reason that prevents Tata (in fact the supplier) from getting good dies manufactured, and getting good moulding machines? Are they embargoed? I don't think so. People don't want that because they are expensive. Just money!

"It just takes money, and a Safari with nice plastics will cost like a Pajero."
This is exactly the mindset that we are fighting in the Indian companies. It is not just about the money. It is about mindset, sense for quality and processes that is SORELY lacking in our companies which are still being majorly run by people who consider a Tata and Mahindra as PSUs.
Together with this mindset change, we also have to change how we negotiate with our Tier II suppliers. Those who know it would know what I am pointing at. Plus our Tier II guys need to step up and introduce new technologies.

Why did the mindset set in? Does the plastic component refrain from buying better moulds and machines because he enjoys that? No. He does it because he can make more money by supplying the crappy parts churned out by his old moulding machine running the crappy mould.

It is just money.

If Tata demands quality, and is willing to pay the appropriate price, I am sure the suppliers will oblige.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 30 Jul 2009 09:52

Dileep wrote:
What is the reason that prevents Tata (in fact the supplier) from getting good dies manufactured, and getting good moulding machines? Are they embargoed? I don't think so. People don't want that because they are expensive. Just money!

Why did the mindset set in? Does the plastic component refrain from buying better moulds and machines because he enjoys that? No. He does it because he can make more money by supplying the crappy parts churned out by his old moulding machine running the crappy mould.

It is just money.

If Tata demands quality, and is willing to pay the appropriate price, I am sure the suppliers will oblige.


Dileep. Come down to a HUGE Indian company with multiple locations and a history which makes it proud yet hangs like an albatross around the neck, and you will know what we are talking about here.

For some time just visualise the cloth dragon we see in dances of Leh. If their is no coordination then the head of the dragon will move in one direction while the body will move all over. The biggest problem with our olden companies is that though the consciousness to new ideas has come to the top management yet it has not flown down to the ranks. Even the top management of our old sector companies are trapped in PSU mindset era. That in iteself is a seperate discussion. Though Mr Anand Mahindra and Mr Ratan Tata are great visionaries yet their is a derth of capable second in commands. Please remember that unlike the IT sector where a 30-40 year old can be made the Head, in a brick-and-mortar company the Heads are still 50-60 years of age.

Let me say here something which with time I am getting convinced about. The top leadership of our old sector companies are still entrenched in the old era where hierarchies are sacrosanct. Where even the MD/CEO of a company toes the line of the Patriarch so that after retirement he can get into the board of directors.

In another forum, Shankar has written about change in attitudes of our people to the defence forces. I just completed reading 'Ignited Minds' by APJ. In the whole book this great man is almost begging for the people to shrug their old mindsets and the people mentioned above are the ones who need to wake up. In the auto sector unfortunately the entry barriers are so high that a new guy fresh from college cannot think of making a commercially viable vehicle (unlike IT sector).

It is absolutely not about money. It is all about processes. It is all about mindsets. From the same Pressure die casting machine, it is possible to bring out two different quality products. I have personally worked with a Tier II supplier who supplies to Tata, Bajaj and many others the pathetic quality products that we are talking about. Yet the same guy gave us (my company was a German JV) a product that met Euro norms and was export worthy at the same time and the price was such that we got orders from all the major OEMs of this country!!!!!!!!

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 30 Jul 2009 10:52

Well, can't object to any of those, Vik.

Did you get the parts at the same price levels of the crappy parts they make for the others? What was the cost impact?

All I wanted to point out in my original post was, Tata CAN make nice plastics, if the WANT.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 30 Jul 2009 11:36

Trust me as a true 'Indian', we squeezed every bit of the vendor on the price front (after all as employees we are paid for that :mrgreen: ) and the guy was even given stiff yearly price cut targets. In return though ofcourse we promised (and got them later) huge volumes. Such leverages are definetely also available to Tata, etc. And here let me state that the vendor has grown by leaps and bounds and is doing great overall business.

On the cost front, there was little/some impact. We had already built in cost of instruments and gauges for the tough quality standards laid down. But the most important thing that got changed were his processes and mentality of his top management and the person on the production floor. This was reiterated by the top people/owner of the enterprise. Infact they were appreciative of us (later) to have taught them new ways of working and easily compared our approach to the contrasting ways of the 'biggies'. The stringent way we conducted the "PPAP" (production part approval process) was stark against the 'form filling' ways of others.

Specifically, TATAs (and other Indian OEMs) DO want to have good quality plastics. Yet they are unable to. This is where hair-splitting on the ways-of-life lies for me. This is where leadership counts.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 30 Jul 2009 11:42

Thanks Vik for sharing. I have some experience in developing vendors for sheet metal boxes and plastics, and it goes in the same vein. If we are willing to work with them, they can be improved.

But in our case, we ended up paying more, and also, the cost effect of all the work we did was also considered.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 30 Jul 2009 12:04

Thank you for patient reading. I have been fighting a similar issue in my organisation currently and hence all of it was just waiting to pour out :)

Cost is surely a bit more than normal but there are many cases that we discovered that we were paying either same or even more (!!! yes it is possible in a very large organisation) then the competitors yet we were getting sub standard quality products. There is a huge scope for improvement and learning for Indian organisations. The MNCs have been in the game for much longer. They know how to retain learnings. We HAVE to leap frog now by using disruptive ways in our thinking.

regards

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 30 Jul 2009 12:57

VikB wrote:Thank you for patient reading. I have been fighting a similar issue in my organisation currently and hence all of it was just waiting to pour out :)

Cost is surely a bit more than normal but there are many cases that we discovered that we were paying either same or even more (!!! yes it is possible in a very large organisation) then the competitors yet we were getting sub standard quality products. There is a huge scope for improvement and learning for Indian organisations. The MNCs have been in the game for much longer. They know how to retain learnings. We HAVE to leap frog now by using disruptive ways in our thinking.

regards


Very interestingdiscussion. I am working for a large software company (European) where we have some simmilar problems. The organisation was a part of an internal It-department. People are not used to think proactive and to the benefit of the company. In stead they are all thinking about their position and roles. So the same stuff happnes everywere. Where ever you have an "old" organisation that has managed to milk the market because of monopoly or market position.

having said all this, i am sure the Indian business houses will rise to the challenge, when profits start to plump. Just look at Nano. I think the team arround it must be fairly up to mark.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 30 Jul 2009 15:41

Girish Wagh and his team brought in a paradigm shift in Tatas. We don't know the extent of the effect. The waves might be 'eroding the mounds' occupied by the 'oldies'

There is NOTHING that prevents us from building a car to international standards, if we set the mind to that.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby John Snow » 30 Jul 2009 19:42

Injection moulding for plastics
Pressure die casting for metal alloys.

For good quality injection moulds, the quality of dies is paramount along with the quality of pellets used.
HMT used to make great die casting machines in collobration with Bhuler ( swiss).


The demise of GM is because of the same issues discussed. Ofcourse the UAW left no stone unturned to kill the goose too.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby amit » 31 Jul 2009 10:46

pandyan wrote:on the plastic front, aint the top indian bike manufacturers have first class fit and finish and affordable as well? It comes to having quality focus...and improved quality means less rework and more reliability (loss function -- underwear loss function)


Pandyan,

This could be due the level of competition and more importantly the size of the two-wheeler market in India.

For the auto industry in particular market size is very important for innovation and quality. The Car industry in India is growing fast but it needs to get much bigger before, methinks, we'll see really high quality local cars.

I must, however, point out that Nano is top class innovation and just shows we have the capacity to do it. Now we have to make it economically worthwhile to do so.

JMT

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby putnanja » 04 Aug 2009 03:13

South Korea to puncture Indian cars

India's largest exporter of cars is worried about competition from its Korean parent. Incredible as it may sound, the prospect of a free trade agreement (FTA) between the European Union (EU) and South Korea is sending shudders through the Chennai headquarters of Hyundai Motor India (HMI).

The proposed trade pact will allow Korean carmakers such as Hyundai, Kia and GMDAT to ship their cars to Europe without paying the 10% duty levied on imports, threatening to erode the competitive advantage enjoyed by Indian carmakers in their largest export market.
...

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby VikB » 04 Aug 2009 09:19

Dileep wrote:Girish Wagh and his team brought in a paradigm shift in Tatas. We don't know the extent of the effect. The waves might be 'eroding the mounds' occupied by the 'oldies'

There is NOTHING that prevents us from building a car to international standards, if we set the mind to that.


For Girish Wagh it was a second successful project. Before Nano, he was the one who successully built and launched the chota haathi - Ace. In the last 12 months, many a times it was only Ace that showed positive growth while all else was down in dumps. Also, Ace is popularly known to have ducked the notion that the public has about Tata vehicles - that they never get it right the first time.

Girish Wagh represents what the new generation can do even in the old sectors provided they are given the chance. Unfortunately, he is seen as an exception rather than a rule.

As for building a car to international standards, I would like to submit that ALL Indian manufacturers Want to do it but they just CANNOT do it. It is one thing to make a car for the international motor shows and another to build quality cars in millions. Desi manufacturers are just not there. They are improving but only in steps. They need to leap.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby vera_k » 04 Aug 2009 09:33

India’s Mahindra Plans to Make China a Hub for Tractor Exports

Hmm, if the article is right about the 25% cost advantage, it makes sense for our auto-manufacturers to move export oriented manufacturing to China.


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