Indian Autos Thread

[Drevin]

automatics rock. worth every penny. ownership experience levels are on a different plane.
levels of fatigue are remarkably reduced.(its amazin). mileage however maybe a minor downside. but guys who think of automatics dont think about mileage automatics need to be reliable ..... japanese.....

[Raja Bose]

Guys face it. Autos is for Americans and Wimmins who really cant drive /dont enjoy driving. These are basically back seaters who somehow are being forced to drive.

Aha! vina saar trying to pull a fast RM here

I think for newbie drivers learning on auto should be ideal since it requires less co-ordination and hence driver can concentrate more on steering, road, other cars, cows, camels, elephants etc. and no danger of car stalling in the middle of the road learning choice gaalis due to showering of goodwill from fellow drivers. After learning on auto shifting to stick should be easier since you already got the other stuff figured out and can now concentrate on learning the stick shift. Otherwise the newbie driver feels as if he/she requires all the arms of Ma Durga! I had the same feeling for the 1st month when learning to drive in Dilli onlee - somehow survived without getting scratched or hitting someone. Once the coordination kicks in, then all is smooth but the turbulent journey is enough to make plenty throw up!

Driving is an acquired skill. Hence, I don't buy the usual hot air spouted by "real" drivers that stick shift is the real deal onlee and how they all learnt it effortlessly blah blah, especially since I have arguably driven more types of "real" cars (and a few buses - in massa though) than the normal "real" driver abdul. One of the mai-baaps of stick shift I test drove was a Ferrari 550 (Maranello one) - that car doesn't drive, it gallops . For everyday commute automatic is preferable esp. in massa - stick shift is just an extra chore. In Yindoostan, things might be different. In terms of driving I follow the Pashtun saying: "An automatic for the usefulness, a stick for the pleasure".

[vina]

But the left hand instinctively dropped down and shifted to second. Then I realized that I will be fine

Yup. It is like swimming, cycling and fu**ing I guess. Once you learn it, you never lose it, even if you haven't used it in quite a while.

Even if you havent rode a bicycle in 20 years, just try getting back on one and you will be amazed how you havent lost it.

[vina]

For everyday commute automatic is preferable esp. in massa - stick shift is just an extra chore

Pah!.. I lived in Massa too and I lived in NYC and SF, probably the two absolutely toughest places to be driving a stick in the US. NY for the traffic and SF for it's steep hills. Other than these two places, nearly everyother place in US is stick friendly. Hardly much traffic, huge separation between cars, why you hardly shift at all, once you get into the freeway. Compare that to the commute in Yindia .. Even Oierope you shift a lot more than in US.

About first learning auto and then going to stick --> Never works, esp in large sample size. This is absolutely the reason why 99% of AmirKhans both men and wimmin (even if they are driving a 6L V6 monster truck) CANT drive stick.. It is either you sink or you swim here when thrown in the deep end of the pool.

[Raja Bose]

Other than these two places, nearly everyother place in US is stick friendly. Hardly much traffic, huge separation between cars, why you hardly shift at all, once you get into the freeway.

Why need to shift at all then (let the car do it for you when required once in a blue moon), hain?

Even with 5-7 year old technology I don't think the gas savings of an avg. driver in a stick shift vs. auto shift are that different - I have done impromptu medium length tests of avg. gas mileage b/w my non-CVT auto Civic and other stick shift Civics several times during univ.....the diff. was somewhere between 1 - 2 mpg.

I have yet to see any real reason amongst stick shift junta for driving stick shift except the gloat about "more control" (wonder what exactly that means? ) and "that is real driving onlee" (then by that logic we should all drive thelas or bicycles onlee with 400% control onlee!! ) Stick shift has its use in mountainous and uneven terrain but then how many of us drive in those conditions? If one wants to drive stick shift thats fine - its their choice but hardly valid to make it seem like as if it is the "better/real driving"

Quite a few of my friends actually learnt on auto (since they learnt in massa) and then moved to stick (got taken in by "this is real driving onlee" propaganda!) - transition was quite smooth. Ofcourse learning to drive stick shift and then moving to auto is even smoother

[vina]

Even with 5-7 year old technology I don't think the gas savings of an avg. driver in a stick shift vs. auto shift are that different - I have done impromptu medium length tests of avg. gas mileage b/w my non-CVT auto Civic and other stick shift Civics several times during univ.....the diff. was somewhere between 1 - 2 mpg

Here you are talking. You give a slick shifting 5 speed civic in the hands of a good driver and the same auto version of the car, the difference is humongous. The car runs better,accelerates better, is smoother overall and more efficient, not to mention better control . that is what REAL men want !.

Atleast CVT and the newer fangled 6 and 7 speed autos in the German cars is close to getting there. The crappy 3 speed autos in AmirKhani cars (the Japanese cars like Civic etc had 4 speed right?) or the atrocious autobox you get in India (3 speed again in the Marutis and Hyundais) are just garbage. Wasteful, terrible performance and jerky. A real shame in fact.

[vera_k]

You need an auto in the US so you have a hand that free to deal with the coffee, the shaver and the lunch. Without this need for creature comforts a stick is preferable as it is much more reliable. All you have to do is change the clutch plates every 100,000 miles or so.

[Sriman]

The automatic snobbery in this thread is as bad as stick shift snobbery

I drive a stick shift and absolutely love it. But i have no issues with those who like the convenience automatics offer. I realize not everyone is a driving enthusiast. I've driven crappy stick shifts and it can be a chore to drive them. But a nice car with smooth shifting manual gearbox is a lot of fun.

And as for 'automatics being able to shift quicker than a human', it's not just about shifting quickly but also about knowing when to shift based on the road condition in front of you. With a stick shift i can keep the engine in it's power band whenever i want. Sure, a well tuned sports transmission with sophisticated traction control will probably best a stick shift but how many of the honda/toyota/chevy automatics in the affordable range have them? I won't mind driving an automatic when the technology matures.

But the stick shift is not always fuel efficient though. I drive in city conditions (not freeway) and i hit 4000-5000 rpms consistently pulling away from traffic signals. I doubt it's going to be very fuel efficient. Anyway,whatever floats your boat at the end of the day but do not be calling us troglodytes yo

[Raja Bose]

Atleast CVT and the newer fangled 6 and 7 speed autos in the German cars is close to getting there. The crappy 3 speed autos in AmirKhani cars (the Japanese cars like Civic etc had 4 speed right?) or the atrocious autobox you get in India (3 speed again in the Marutis and Hyundais) are just garbage. Wasteful, terrible performance and jerky. A real shame in fact.

OK this is where the problem lies. Yes 3-speed auto is total Pakistan - no question about it. However most Japanese 4 speed and now any good CVT is pretty darn good - in fact for most drivers they will do much better mileage wise in the CVT. Unless you are a rally driver it is unlikely you will be able to average out better than a properly programmed CVT today - this is something even the auto manufacturers agree on privately (stick shift is there for nostalgia purposes and for those who really need it - there are some places an automatic wont dare tread but most drivers dont drive in those places).

My Oiropean boss has a Audi stick shift and he swears by it (all the same REAL men reasons! ) but one of the current work we did involved real-time ECU data analysis where he was surprised to see that the expected was far from the actual and the corresponding test car for auto did pretty much the same in terms of mileage and better in terms of wear! - so its no longer a open-shutcase for a stick shift vs. automatics - times a'changin'!

Here you are talking. You give a slick shifting 5 speed civic in the hands of a good driver and the same auto version of the car, the difference is humongous. The car runs better,accelerates better, is smoother overall and more efficient, not to mention better control . that is what REAL men want !.

There is very little or no difference in the pickup for the current automatics in street conditions (mileage difference is becoming insignificant) and the CVTs now actually shift way more smoothly than stick (here I am talking about in the hands of test drivers who drive more miles a year than most people do in their lifetimes). Actually unlike what most REAL men think - an average driver is not a great driver Everybody thinks they are great drivers, but then that is more for local consumption rather than fact.

[Raja Bose]

But a nice car with smooth shifting manual gearbox is a lot of fun.

No question about the fun part - I guess it comes from the fact that unlike an automatic where car responds by itself, in a stick shift one feels the car surge onlee in response to one's stimulus (esp. in high performance cars) - so a feeling of "manly" power I guess

[ArmenT]

Not quite an Indian auto news, but Force India is starting in pole-position tomorrow at the Belgian GP!
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/motor ... 08101.html

[Drevin]

For those of you already hooked onto CVT technology ...... there is an often publicized information that aint correct. We all know CVT's use a belt.

In Honda's the CVT belt is made from rubber. This limits using a CVT on a more powerful car. say a 2.0 litre corolla.

However belts can be made from steel/metal and remove this bottleneck. So, in essence CVT's dont necessarily impose restrictions on capacity of the engine.

[Raja Bose]

^^ Corollas and Sentras use a chain...even GHQs old Corolla has a chain instead of a timing belt.

[Drevin]

Corolla don't use CVT txmission. Toyota auto's still use the regular automatics.

i have no idea about the other one.

[Drevin]

has anyone driven a car with "adaptive cruise control". Does it reduce bodyache, fatigue on long jouney's.

[Raja Bose]

Chain or Belt has nothing to do with CVT or non-CVT automatic transmission. That ol' non-CVT Corolla gives close to 40mpg on long road trips though

[Raja Bose]

has anyone driven a car with "adaptive cruise control". Does it reduce bodyache, fatigue on long jouney's.

I have driven some Beemers and Mercs with this thingamajig - it works really really really good for a recent Merc I tested (radar based, release probably in 2H12 or 2H13) but on the currently available models personally I felt better leaving it off - it might just be a personal choice.

[Drevin]

Atleast u were interested to check it out. Sounds very cool .... maynot be very cool from what u are sayin.

[Raja Bose]

^^^ part of my job currently which is surprising considering who I work for (but I aint complaining!). The adaptive cruise is more a personal choice I feel like the current auto vs. stick debate - don't go by my negative thoughts about it.

[Drevin]

somebody has a nice job. lucky u.

[vina]

any good CVT is pretty darn good - in fact for most drivers they will do much better mileage wise in the CVT. Unless you are a rally driver it is unlikely you will be able to average out better than a properly programmed CVT today

The only guys who ever put CVTs on cars in AmirKhan markets is 1) Honda in the CIVIC HX range, 2) Subaru - discontinued long ago, mid 90s I think and 3) Audi - steel belted CVTs.

So who other has CVTs today ? . You are looking at at best 4 cars !. Most others use the traditional autos with more gear ratios and some fuzzy logic based shifting.

The manumatic ones with steering wheel based switches is probably the best compromise for wimps who cant use clutches and will stall the car otherwise. The robotized manumatic cluctch is what will work. The slush box is well just sewage slush.

[Drevin]

You are right. there r very few.
Many manufacturers haven't even bothered to try.
The two benefits from a cvt are smoother transit between gear ratios and improved mileage.

I doubt there will be further research in this area. Manufacturers abroad have moved away to electric and gas-electric power trains which may further move capital away from cvt research/production.

[Shalav]

I drive a 2007 Maxima - it has a CVT. Good response to the accelerator pedal, and when using it in the manual gear shift mode the car really zips. Most of the time I leave it on auto - it is simply much more convinient not having to bother with gear shifts. Fuel consumption is not bad for a 3.5 litre engine at around 20.9 mpg (~8.5 km/l) in mixed highway / city driving.

Before that I drove a second-hand 800, and then a second-hand Zen before selling that too and purchasing a new Omni. Then a Saturn LS2 auto-transmission v6. Sold that to purchase the Maxima.

I think I like CVT transmissions. The gear shifts are not noticeable at all, the response is quicker, and I get about the same mileage with the 3.5 litre Nissan V6 engine with more BHP and torque, as I got with the 3.0 litre Saturn V6 engine.

[John Snow]

Ideally the CVT should not have gears, hence continously variable, just two cones with opposite mounting.

The belt tensions itself as the speed changes and slides inot different dia...

[Shalav]

Yes you are right. I should clarify - cannot feel the gear shifts when changing manually. In the manual mode the Maxima shows 6 forward gears. I am guessing Nissan has fixed some gear ratios for each gear when this mode is selected.

In the auto mode, my driving habits have changed too. I notice I keep an eye on the tach. too. Once one has figured out the RPM for a particular speed all I have to do is push the accelerator till the tach. reaches that RPM and hold it there till the speed is reached. The Maxima reaches cruising speeds very quickly so most of the time I find myself getting the better of other cars when starting from a standing start.

I am also guessing better fuel economy is arrived at by just holding at a particular RPM from standing starts. In the Saturn I had to press the accelerator from a standing start and the RPM went up and down till the speed was reached. There is no rev up and then rev down when shifting to a higher gear in the CVT.

I like the way it performs.

[Raja Bose]

vina saar,

Nowadays, all this automatics are for wimps onlee and REAL men drive manual onlee is similar to the debate about the space shuttle where even though the space shuttle was designed to and is perfectly capable of landing automatically, the astronauts demanded that they be allowed to do some things manually, just so that they had something to do! So now they are allowed to press buttons to choose landing sites and lower the landing gear so that they can feel "manly/herrowic"

[ArmenT]

Used to drive stick shift for approx. 15 years (legally that is, 18-19 years if you count underage driving ) and then SHQ persuaded me to buy my first automatic because she said I always came in from work swearing about LA traffic. By the way, SHQ could drive my stick-shift car just fine, so it wasn't a case of get a car that she could drive too. Besides she had her own automatic car.

After a few weeks of driving, I can safely tell you guys that she was right about it. Mind you, my last stick shift car was a BMW, so it wasn't a case of a badly shifting gearbox. The stick was solid and went in smoothly and the clutch pedal was heavy (every german car I've driven has this characteristic, Japanese and Korean cars have lighter clutch pedals). It's just that stop and go traffic tends to tire one out more when you're on a stick shift.

By the way, some cheaper cars now have traction control as well. Mine does and it has practically everything my BMW came with, except for heated seats and a sunroof.

[vera_k]

has anyone driven a car with "adaptive cruise control". Does it reduce bodyache, fatigue on long jouney's.

Only way to reduce fatigue on long journeys is to fly.

[Raja Bose]

has anyone driven a car with "adaptive cruise control". Does it reduce bodyache, fatigue on long jouney's.

Only way to reduce fatigue on long journeys is to fly.

Nah...best way to reduce fatigue on long journeys is to travel in AC sleeper class on Indian Railways - unless you are flying business/1st class nothing comes close to that!

[John Snow]

I have driven a Adaptive cruise control car, but that was 8 yrs ago, its is pretty cool.

Vina garu>> you forgot the DUTCH car company DAF, which made the first CVT car and was named Rubber Band car. In those days the belt technology (material) was not good and car was not that successfull. later on Mazda was the first company to come out with better (steel reinforced belts).

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Variomatic

Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT) arent all that new. Remember the little DAF 66 Variomatic from the seventies? That used what was ostensibly an oversized rubber band running between two pulleys with sloping surfaces. One of the pulleys connected to the engine output, the other to the drive shafts. Each pulley was made of two pieces and when pushed together the sloped surfaces would cause the pulleys diameter to grow.

This changed the effective gearing and meant that the little DAF could do away with a conventional gearbox. It had, in effect, an infinite number of gears. So far, so complicated. The problem with these gearboxes was the so-called rubber band effect.

When you pressed the throttle pedal, the engine automatically revved to its maximum power output, the engine noise rising instantly with the cars actual acceleration slowly catching up. This gave a nasty slipping clutch effect which proved very unpopular with most drivers who preferred to equate their road speed with the noise their engine was making.

"You can knock the selector to the right and nudge the car between any of the six-ratios in true touring car style."

Another significant problem with this system was that in cars with any useful torque, the elastic band would blow its brains out so for years CVTs were only available on shopping trolleys like the Fiat Uno Selecta or the Subaru Justy. It was only with the advent of steel belts instead of rubber ones that CVT gearboxes could make the big leap forward. Audis Multitronic gearbox mated a CVT to big power and MG Rovers Steptronic was similarly effective. Stump up a premium of £1,050 over the sticker price of a manual MINI One or Cooper and you can get a version of the Steptronic box fitted.

This gearbox gets around the dreaded elastic band effect by having six artificially mandated gears rather than one continuous ratio. The gearstick that sprouts from the floor can be left in an automatic mode, where it replicates the actions of a normal torque converter-equipped automatic gearbox quite well, or you can knock the selector to the right and nudge the car between any of the six-ratios in true touring car style sequential and forward for downchanges, backward for upshifts. Its still amazing how many manufacturers get this system round the wrong way! Steptronic steering wheel paddles represent an affordable option at £50. Two different driving modes are offered, normal and sport.

When in sport mode, the engine hangs on to each gear a little longer, but the electronics dont do anything particularly fancy to the stability control system or the damping. Fuel economy for both cars is quoted a 7.7 litres per 100km travelled which in old money translates as an average of 37 miles per gallon. Carbon dioxide emissions are quoted as 187 grammes per kilometre.

The MINI One with the CVT gearbox will accelerate to 60mph in 12.5 seconds and on to a top speed of 106mph while the 115bhp Cooper will cover the sprint in 10.2 seconds and hit a terminal velocity of 115mph. The CVT gearchange in many ways typifies the MINI an old idea brought resolutely up to date.

DAF Variomatic works like this in video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8AzqtomwD0How DAF Variomatic works


DAF car in 1970s

[Drevin]

Only way to reduce fatigue on long journeys is to fly.

Nah...best way to reduce fatigue on long journeys is to travel in AC sleeper class on Indian Railways - unless you are flying business/1st class nothing comes close to that!

According to me the two are mutually exclusive. Each has its own charms.

Travelling by rail:
Lots of space. Can stretch, read, sleep. Very spacious. And u can stand on the edge of the train and feel the breeze Essentially u are having a holiday during travel too. Top that with A/C and things get even better.

Travelling by air:
As Raja Bose has pointed out this mode is best when travelling for business or travelling between continents. However travelling by air is classy. Space is at a premium. Its expensive.


So it all depends on your state of mind. If u want to pamper urself or ur feeling classy and u can afford it, then air travel is perfect. With widebody airlines now gaining popularity air travel will continue to improve. However if ur feeling casual or laidback and u are on a budget, travelling by rail is a real good second option.

[Drevin]

vina saar,

Nowadays, all this automatics are for wimps onlee and REAL men drive manual onlee is similar to the debate about the space shuttle where even though the space shuttle was designed to and is perfectly capable of landing automatically, the astronauts demanded that they be allowed to do some things manually, just so that they had something to do! So now they are allowed to press buttons to choose landing sites and lower the landing gear so that they can feel "manly/herrowic"

I completely agree with this style of thinking. Feeling the surge of ur car in connection with tactile feedback from ur hand and foot is more youthful.

I havent tried these new txmissions called sportronic etc which are essentially automatics but have a manual mode. It worx just like a stick but there is no clutch.
Would this be the best of both worlds.

Anyone can speak in detail about these new contraptions on upscale cars.

Also I believe paddle shifts are a temporary fad. These will disappear soon enuf.

[VikB]

I remember similar debate when button-electric-start was introduced a few years back in India on motorcycles. Some of the 'Bullet' guys still swear by the 'kick'. But most of the motorcycles in Indian market today have converted to electric start. Infact when initially Honda launched unicorn in India, it didnt have an electric start. They had to quickly rectify that by bringing in a new variant.

[VikB]

Rumor has it that the Tatas are planning to intro the latest under-wraps JLR technology.... remote controlled gear+clutch+brakes.... gives a whole new (literal) meaning to backseat driving ... just hope the remote batteries are well charged.....

The technology is already present. It comes in two variants - GHQ and SHQ

[Sriman]

I havent tried these new txmissions called sportronic etc which are essentially automatics but have a manual mode. It worx just like a stick but there is no clutch.
Would this be the best of both worlds.

Sportronic/tiptronics are a decent compromise but most of them are sequential (you cannot shift directly from say 5 to 2) which kinda defeats the purpose. A friend of mine went from stick shift Audi to a tiptronic Audi and regrets it. I drove an Altima with tiptronic and it was pretty decent.

[vina]

Audi to a tiptronic Audi and regrets it

How old is your friend ? . Remember, despite all that marketing and "positioning" rubbish aimed at "youth" and all that.

AUDI was primarily driven by retired German Civil Servants

In Ingless.

Audis are generally meant for retired Jurman Babus! Audi Vahan is the old babu geezer vahan of choice

If you want a German car, do yourself a favor, get yourself the real thing ( Mercedes, BMW or Porsche), if not for God's sake at least get a VW!. Audi is for pretenders.

[Sriman]

Saar, if we could afford beemers or merc we would buy them. Beggars can't be choosers and all that
I bought mine used for under 8 grand and won't complain. It's a damn good motor for the price i paid. True it looks like an old geezer's car but i can live with that. It drives much better than other pretender cars like Mustang (except GT) and Mitsubishi Eclipse.That's one good thing about massa, you can land pretty good cars for cheap if you opt for stick shift versions.

[Drevin]

Nah I never meant that the sporttronic replaces the manual txmission.

I only said, does it offer enough to be considered a decent "third option" for people who are confused and dont want to commit to either. (me not in this category )

My personal experience is very much in favor of buying a low-cost reliable automatic txmission car.

There is a very apt saying that comes to my mind "Nothing risked. Nothing gained."

[negi]

Vina ji seems to be a purist ;iirc he uses film cameras with fixed primes and a manual BMW ; I am sure he must be using Mont Blanc fountain pens with diamond clips .

[Drevin]

Big B used to come for so many Parker Pen ads if my memory serves me right. I used to find it a bit funny.