Indian Autos Thread

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Vipul
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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Vipul » 15 Jan 2010 23:08

Just read a report today speculating that the NANO would cost $8000 when launched in the US of A.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Satya_anveshi » 16 Jan 2010 03:54

SwamyG wrote:More "nano meets" onlee


Cheap car from India could cost $8,000 in US

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Neshant » 16 Jan 2010 22:24

Just read a report today speculating that the NANO would cost $8000 when launched in the US of A.


Nobody is going to buy it at 8K.

Probably a good 1/3rd of that are fees and commissions to various middle men.

They should sell it off a website to cut down on cost. If they lose sight of the car's biggest selling point (cost), it will be a total wash out.

The US media and auto unions will definately want to give it a hostile reception regardless of how good/low cost it is.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Satya_anveshi » 17 Jan 2010 01:10

Price should be based on the value it creates to the segment the product is targeting.

From the looks, Nano is as sexy as the Smart, which is marketed by Mercedez and priced at ~$15K. Nano could be a non-electric version of Smart.

Further, the competitive landscape suggests that the least expensive alternative is no less than $12K (base price).

If we consider Nissan Versa, Chevy Aveo, Toyota Yaris, Kia Soul, Scion xB(?) etc, as legit competitors then 8K is a steal. I would even say Tata is leaving a lot of money on the table. This may be understandable as it is the first time it is introducing and will fine tune as it goes thru the learning curve.

I am also sure if Nano survives initial hiccups (of all manner) then it will create room for line extensions into more profitable segments.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Dileep » 18 Jan 2010 15:22

If the $8,000 price tag holds true, it would cost far less than the $9,970 Hyundai Accent, currently the car with the lowest base sticker price in the U.S., according to the Edmunds.com automotive Web site. The price excludes shipping.

If the Accent (verna in India) sells for $9,970 sticker, Nano Americana should sell for $4,000. That is simple scaling.

The said Accent is a 2 door hatch with the following specs:

Off-Road Capability

Min ground clearance: 145mm (5.7")
Powertrain

90 amp alternator

Fuel Tank Capacity: 11.9gal.

Recommended fuel : regular unleaded

Fuel Economy Highway: 36mpg

Emissions Type: ULEV II

5 speed manual transmission with overdrive

Front-wheel drive

Fuel Economy City: 27mpg

110hp 1.6L DOHC 16 valve I-4 engine with variable valve control

4.06 axle ratio

500 CCA 55 Ah battery with run down protection
Safety and Security

Front disc/rear drum brakes

Dual front impact airbags

Dual seat mounted side impact airbags

Manually adjustable front head restraints

3 manually adjustable rear head restraints

Manual door locks

Airbag occupancy sensor

Overhead airbags
Seats and Trim

Seating capacity of 5

Manual driver lumbar support

4-way passenger seat adjustment

60-40 folding rear bench seat

Cloth/vinyl seat upholstery

Driver armrest

Front bucket seats

6-way driver seat adjustment
Specs and Dimensions

Bore x stroke : 76.5mm x 87.0mm ( 3.01" x 3.43")

Engine torque: 106 lb.-ft. @ 4,500RPM

Engine horsepower: 110hp @ 6,000RPM

Cylinders: I-4

Engine displacement: 1.6L

Compression ratio: 10.00:1

5 speed transmission

Gear ratios (1st): 3.62

Gear ratios (2nd): 1.95

Gear ratios (3rd): 1.29

Gear ratios (4th): .89

Gear ratios (5th): .73

Gear ratios (reverse): 3.58

Curb weight: 1,119kg (2,467lbs)

GVWR: 3,638lbs.

Exterior length: 4,046mm (159.3")

Exterior body width: 1,694mm (66.7")

Exterior height: 1,471mm (57.9")

Wheelbase: 2,499mm (98.4")

Front tread: 57.9"

Rear tread: 57.5"

Turning radius: 5.0m (16.5')

Front legroom: 1,087mm (42.8")

Rear legroom: 871mm (34.3")

Front headroom: 1,006mm (39.6")

Rear headroom: 960mm (37.8")

Front hiproom: 1,275mm (50.2")

Rear hiproom: 1,240mm (48.8")

Front shoulder room: 1,359mm (53.5")

Rear shoulder room: 1,349mm (53.1")

Passenger volume: 2,611 L (92.2 cu.ft.)

Interior cargo volume: 450L (15.9 cu.ft.)

Interior maximum cargo volume: 450L (15.9 cu.ft.)


Std Equipment is:
Body Exterior

2 doors

Driver and passenger manual remote door mirrors

Black door mirrors

Body-colored bumpers

Clearcoat paint

Rear lip spoiler
Convenience

Manual front windows

Driver and passenger door bins

Full floor console

Manual door locks

Day-night rearview mirror

Front cupholders
Entertainment Features

4 speakers

Integrated roof antenna
Lighting, Visibility and Instrumentation

Halogen aero-composite headlights

Low tire pressure warning

Trip odometer

Tachometer

Auto off headlights

Variable intermittent front windshield wipers

Rear window defroster
Off-Road Capability

Min ground clearance: 145mm (5.7")
Powertrain

90 amp alternator

Fuel Tank Capacity: 11.9gal.

Recommended fuel : regular unleaded

Fuel Economy Highway: 36mpg

Emissions Type: ULEV II

5 speed manual transmission with overdrive

Front-wheel drive

Fuel Economy City: 27mpg

110hp 1.6L DOHC 16 valve I-4 engine with variable valve control

4.06 axle ratio

500 CCA 55 Ah battery with run down protection
Safety and Security

Front disc/rear drum brakes

Dual front impact airbags

Dual seat mounted side impact airbags

Manually adjustable front head restraints

3 manually adjustable rear head restraints

Manual door locks

Airbag occupancy sensor

Overhead airbags
Seats and Trim

Seating capacity of 5

Manual driver lumbar support

4-way passenger seat adjustment

60-40 folding rear bench seat

Cloth/vinyl seat upholstery

Driver armrest

Front bucket seats

6-way driver seat adjustment
Specs and Dimensions

Bore x stroke : 76.5mm x 87.0mm ( 3.01" x 3.43")

Engine torque: 106 lb.-ft. @ 4,500RPM

Engine horsepower: 110hp @ 6,000RPM

Cylinders: I-4

Engine displacement: 1.6L

Compression ratio: 10.00:1

5 speed transmission

Gear ratios (1st): 3.62

Gear ratios (2nd): 1.95

Gear ratios (3rd): 1.29

Gear ratios (4th): .89

Gear ratios (5th): .73

Gear ratios (reverse): 3.58

Curb weight: 1,119kg (2,467lbs)

GVWR: 3,638lbs.

Exterior length: 4,046mm (159.3")

Exterior body width: 1,694mm (66.7")

Exterior height: 1,471mm (57.9")

Wheelbase: 2,499mm (98.4")

Front tread: 57.9"

Rear tread: 57.5"

Turning radius: 5.0m (16.5')

Front legroom: 1,087mm (42.8")

Rear legroom: 871mm (34.3")

Front headroom: 1,006mm (39.6")

Rear headroom: 960mm (37.8")

Front hiproom: 1,275mm (50.2")

Rear hiproom: 1,240mm (48.8")

Front shoulder room: 1,359mm (53.5")

Rear shoulder room: 1,349mm (53.1")

Passenger volume: 2,611 L (92.2 cu.ft.)

Interior cargo volume: 450L (15.9 cu.ft.)

Interior maximum cargo volume: 450L (15.9 cu.ft.)
Suspension/Handling

Front independent strut suspension with anti-roll bar, gas-pressurized shocks

P175/70TR14 BSW AS front and rear tires

Front and rear 14" x 5" steel wheels with full wheel covers

Rear semi-independent torsion beam suspension with gas-pressurized shocks

Speed-sensing hydraulic power-assisted rack-pinion steering

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby sinha » 18 Jan 2010 19:21

could not help noticing "off-road capabilities" listed in Accent spec - what exactly is it - is that just a GC spec?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Muppalla » 18 Jan 2010 21:05

Scoop – Next gen Renault Clio to be made in India; to share platform with Micra

If reports circulated by Autocar are anything to go by, then the next generation Renault Clio will be built in India, alongside the 3 other cars based on the same platform. Yip, you heard it right, the next gen Clio will be based on the V-platform that also spawns the Micra, its sedan variant and a mini-MPV, most likely something similar to the Note.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Uday B » 19 Jan 2010 16:38

Guys, was in Chevrolet showroom yesterday to check out the all new BEAT.
Must say very impressed with the car and looks even good live. My Dad was initially sceptical about beat based on our online research. As we went through hyundai, maruthi and then to chevy, we had a look at i10, ritz and then Beat was the last one. After test driving it, boy the car is good. Looks really meaner and very sporty when looked live. Really liked the steering wheel in particular.

Finally decided to book beat this weekend. I was also told the initial extremely lower price is only an introductory offer itseems. I was told there will be revision of the price come March to the tune of 40k.

Ppl planning for small hatchbacks, go for BEAT. At that price it is really worth it. :)

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Singha » 19 Jan 2010 19:52

saw a nano and old zen close together. the nano roof is a FOOT higher than zen roof. the build quality looks quite good and no wavy patterns on body panels.

onlee thing is due to short wheelbase on less than perfect indic roads the ride will be nervous and choppy.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Prem » 19 Jan 2010 23:12

Nissan to begin first made-in-India car production by May 2010

Nissan Motor Company, which had earlier announced its plans to shift production of its Micra cars for the European market from the U.K. to Chennai plans production of its first made-in-India compact car by May.According to PTI, the Japanese auto giant, which also aims to use India as an export hub for Africa and the Middle East, has recently indicated that its Chennai plant would become operational by May 2010 and it will be the sourcing hub for the global compact car for Europe. In India, Nissan plans to add 55 dealerships, some of which would be owners of multiple outlets by 2012:


http://www.wheelsunplugged.com/ViewNews ... ewsid=5450

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Akshut » 24 Jan 2010 18:31

Talking about the Tata Aria, the car has got some really nice feel to it which older Tata cars, or for that matter any Desi car lacked till now. Land Rover buyout is being put to some good use by Tata. Interiors are top notch and definitely not < 10 lac car. Also for the reason because Tata is about to launch new Safari by this year. IMO Tata won't launch Aria in same price-category as Safari.

Image

&

http://msjawahar.files.wordpress.com/20 ... xpo006.jpg

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Abhijeet » 27 Jan 2010 01:23

Is there an example of a car in the Indian market that dropped significantly in price when its production was shifted from abroad to India? This should have avoided the import duties, which are 40% or so of the car's price. So is there any car that suddenly became 40% cheaper because its production base was moved to India?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Suraj » 27 Jan 2010 02:20

It won't work in such a simple manner because domestic manufacturing means setting up facilities here, whose costs are deferred over the years into the prices of the locally manufactured cars.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby nachiket » 27 Jan 2010 02:40

Neshant wrote:
Just read a report today speculating that the NANO would cost $8000 when launched in the US of A.


Nobody is going to buy it at 8K.

Probably a good 1/3rd of that are fees and commissions to various middle men.

They should sell it off a website to cut down on cost. If they lose sight of the car's biggest selling point (cost), it will be a total wash out.

The US media and auto unions will definately want to give it a hostile reception regardless of how good/low cost it is.


I really don't expect the Nano to do well in massaland. For one thing I guarantee that it won't find a single male buyer. Big cars are a status symbol and nearly everybody can afford a Honda civic, Ford Focus, or Chevrolet Aveo here. Its a very different car market. The cars I mentioned earlier are the "Low" end :shock: . hatchbacks are nearly absent. Only girls like small cars in the US. A guy driving a nano in US would be teased by just about everyone (would surely be called gay...no offence meant). TATA would do better to take the nano to Europe where people like small cars.

Rising oil prices were beginning to change the market I guess but the prices fell during the recession and the americans seem to have gone back to their old ways.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Neshant » 27 Jan 2010 09:26

Small cars are not popular in the US because they cost as much as big cars. The big name car companies have been gouging consumers to the max and are scared stiff of low cost competition.

What's needed is a small economical car that costs under 5K.

Imagine how much money a car rental company could save in creating a fleet of 20 nano cars vs a fleet of 20 over-priced <insert name> cars.

Nobody is going to buy an 8K Nano with multiple layers of middlemen thrown in. A 5K nano would be a hit.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Abhijeet » 27 Jan 2010 12:11

Suraj wrote:It won't work in such a simple manner because domestic manufacturing means setting up facilities here, whose costs are deferred over the years into the prices of the locally manufactured cars.


Even so, the price should come down significantly over some period of time. That would be an indication that the import duty policy that keeps cars in India so expensive is having its intended effect. There should be some empirical evidence by this point that the policy is working.

For example, Hyundai cars are probably significantly more localized than, say, Toyota cars. Are Hyundai cars of the same size and specs much cheaper than Toyotas? I think the Sonata is about the same price as other cars in its size class.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Suraj » 27 Jan 2010 13:18

It is still hard to make such a comparison. Usually a plant takes time to set up. Tooling tends to be imported, as does a lot of componentry, with indigenization progressively increasing. During this time, the model itself tends to evolve unlike the old days when they refreshed the Amby once a decade. As a result the CBU imported version and the final domestically manufactured one may be so different that it doesn't make sense to make such a price comparison.

That's not to say local manufacturing isn't a good thing. It undoubtedly is, but the cost benefit will take a while to achieve, and a simple example of price cut = CBU customs duty amount will probably never be possible.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Abhijeet » 28 Jan 2010 00:23

The comparison shouldn't be between the CBU 2001 version (say) of a particular model and the 2009 localized version of the same model. It should be between same model year cars from different manufacturers, which are at similar price points in international markets, but one of which is localized and one of which is imported in India. Is the localized version significantly cheaper than the imported version? At that point, it should be an apples to apples comparison.

Anyway, I did a quick test - comparing the Hyundai Sonata and the Honda Accord. I think Hyundai probably has one of the highest levels of localization of any foreign manufacturer. Both cars are sold internationally and are in the same size class (midsize in the US).

2010 Hyundai Sonata in the US: around $22.5K - http://autos.yahoo.com/2010_hyundai_sonata/
2010 Honda Accord in the US: around $26K - http://autos.yahoo.com/2010_honda_accord_sedan/
The Sonata is about $3.5K (Rs. 1.75L) cheaper in the US

Hyundai Sonata in India: around Rs. 15L
Honda Accord in India: around Rs. 19L
The Sonata is about Rs. 4L cheaper in India
http://www.cardekho.com/search/AllBrand ... e-Low-High

Yay, victory for localization, perhaps. But the Sonata is still priced at over $30K in India, far more than its US price. That might be a function of low volumes, or a lot of components that are still being imported.

I look forward to the day when you can buy a car of Corolla or Civic quality at Rs. 8L rather than Rs. 13-14 L. Right now, even the City is more expensive than that.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby nachiket » 28 Jan 2010 02:15

A large part of the difference is because of more taxes levied upon cars in India than in the US. If the GOI and the state governments reduced taxes, the costs may come down to US levels or slightly more. Then the demand would increase (making sure that the loss of revenue for govt. is only temporary) and the costs would reduce further since the companies would find it lucrative to manufacture all components of the car here itself. The cheap labour available in India would help in this case and reduce the cost even further IMO.

Of course this is never going to happen since any proposal for reducing taxes considerably on cars would never go through in India.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby rachel » 28 Jan 2010 19:53

So, Nissan Micra will be produced in THAILAND for export all over Asia, while Micra made in India will be exported to MidEast, Africa, and Europe?

BTW French unions will fight hard to prevent Renault Clio from being made in India and exported to Europe. Don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

As for GM India, it is owned by Chinese now, and as a result we should all be praying for their utter failure and destruction in India.

GM is an idiot company. They claim to sell 1 million plus cars in China, but what they conveniently forget is that 70 percent of that is product made with their 'joint venture partner SAIC'.

In Chinese language, joint venture 'partner' means.... I steal all your designs and run you out of bizness in a few years.

General Motors is now a Chinese company. They are the enemy now and should be viewed that way.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Chinmayanand » 01 Feb 2010 04:07


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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Neshant » 01 Feb 2010 09:29

Nissan to source components worth $40 mn from India by 2012


hardly anything for a company that large.


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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby joshvajohn » 09 Feb 2010 23:43

JET ENGINE TECH FOR ELECTRIC CARS
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=21417
A consortium of three companies including Jaguar Land Rover has won a �15m award from the government's Technology Strategy Board to help it develop a gas-turbine 'range extender' for electric cars.



Note: Indian government should invest on Electric cars based research. Possibly even the electric cum petrol - hybrid cars.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Neshant » 14 Feb 2010 10:30

pandyan wrote:I wonder if Hyundai Genesis Image



i note they do not stick the Hyundai logo on the front of the car perhaps because the Hyundai logo implies its 'cheap' and therefore likely to put off luxury car buyers.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Surya » 14 Feb 2010 19:57

Err

you mean exactly the way LExus, Infiniti, Acura do it??? :roll: :((

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby manish » 14 Feb 2010 21:13

Surya wrote:Err

you mean exactly the way LExus, Infiniti, Acura do it??? :roll: :((

Not quite. I think Neshant is right in noting that. Infiniti, Lexus and Acura are different brands/badges which have an independent identity and logo as compared to their parents.

The Genesis is still a Hyundai. They have avoided sticking their stylised H upfront, thats all. Here's some background on that decision.
After gauging public reaction, Hyundai has decided not to slap on the automaker's swoopy "H" logo onto the Genesis sedan's front grille.

The rear still has the Hyundai badge.
Image

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Abhijeet » 15 Feb 2010 00:14

To bring this back to Indian cars...any indications of when the luxury lines of Japanese carmakers - Acura, Lexus or Infiniti - will show up in the Indian market? BMW and Mercedes seem to be doing quite well in India, thanks - plus Honda and Toyota now have several years of operating experience in the Indian market. It would seem to make sense for them to bring in models from their luxury lineup that would compete directly with the BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-class. I haven't read any news about this happening.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Surya » 15 Feb 2010 05:37

manish

Its a part step.

In other words I am sure there were interesting internal discussions whether to badge it differently and the costs and headaches on that or do this which is a little step in that direction but does not have to spend as much.

Also for all the badging of Lexus , Acura etc we all know who it belongs to. Hence with Toyota getting a hammering Lexus will too.

Long ago in my studies we had a major branding exercise involving the Infiniti so I can see the arguments.

I agree with Hyundai - no point in all the extra logistics for a seperate badge in the present market. And Hyundai has come a long way and people realise it.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Chinmayanand » 15 Feb 2010 13:23

Hyundai Genesis : The poor man's S Class :lol:

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby vipins » 15 Feb 2010 17:28

Tata Motors testing hydrogen-powered commercial vehicles
Tata Motors European Technical Centre plc (TMETC), a 100 per cent subsidiary of Tata Motors, has developed a range of hydrogen fuel cell-powered commercial vehicles and is currently undertaking trial runs of these buses and light trucks.

There was also news about Tata and ISRO joining expertise to develop hydrogen fueled vehicles,wonder what happened to it?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Chinmayanand » 15 Feb 2010 17:46


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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby manish » 15 Feb 2010 18:45

Surya wrote:manish

Its a part step.

In other words I am sure there were interesting internal discussions whether to badge it differently and the costs and headaches on that or do this which is a little step in that direction but does not have to spend as much.

Also for all the badging of Lexus , Acura etc we all know who it belongs to. Hence with Toyota getting a hammering Lexus will too.

Long ago in my studies we had a major branding exercise involving the Infiniti so I can see the arguments.

I agree with Hyundai - no point in all the extra logistics for a seperate badge in the present market. And Hyundai has come a long way and people realise it.

Yup Surya, no arguments on the strong ties that Lexus/Acura/Infiniti share with their respective parents. My point was that Hyundai's Genesis positioning was still a bit different as compared to them.

As an aside, I am interested in seeing where Hyundai goes from here. Will they go down the 'Lexus route' with a new brand (Genesis anyone?) or 'push' the Hyundai brand itself as a more premium one? They anyway already have Kia as the lower-end brand within the Hyundai empire, don't they? Hyundai's own star is rising pretty fast, and launches like the Genesis sedan/coupe, the 2011 Sonata and the new Tucson will only hasten the process. It will surely make for an interesting case study.

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby manish » 15 Feb 2010 19:54

Tata Motors Names Carl-Peter Forster Group CEO
MUMBAI -- Tata Motors Ltd. Monday said it has appointed Carl-Peter Forster as group chief executive of the company.

Apart from looking at Tata Motor's India operations -- local and exports -- Mr. Forster will also be responsible for its companies overseas including U.K.-based premium brands Jaguar and Land Rover, the country's largest auto maker by sales said in a statement.

Carl-Peter Forster's move to Tata is not a surprise for those who have been following news from the auto industry - he has been linked with the Tatas from the day he stepped down from his GM job following the Opel-Magna mess. But what is surprising is the role that he has been given. Everybody expected him to be the head of JLR and/or TM Europe - not TM Group CEO.

The appointment should be seen in the backdrop of recent statements coming out of Bombay House saying that Ratan Tata's successor need not necessarily come from within the Tata Group or from India - the head of Tata Motors would be a very strong candidate for any succession plans in place at the Group level. Ravi Kant and R K Krishna Kumar have often been tipped as favourites, but age is a factor that both have going against them.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby svinayak » 15 Feb 2010 21:20

manish wrote:
The appointment should be seen in the backdrop of recent statements coming out of Bombay House saying that Ratan Tata's successor need not necessarily come from within the Tata Group or from India - the head of Tata Motors would be a very strong candidate for any succession plans in place at the Group level. Ravi Kant and R K Krishna Kumar have often been tipped as favourites, but age is a factor that both have going against them.

It does not happen that way. This is only for Tata Motors.
Tata Sons holding is the key. That person will be the successor to Ratan.

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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby manish » 15 Feb 2010 22:43

Acharya wrote:
manish wrote:
The appointment should be seen in the backdrop of recent statements coming out of Bombay House saying that Ratan Tata's successor need not necessarily come from within the Tata Group or from India - the head of Tata Motors would be a very strong candidate for any succession plans in place at the Group level. Ravi Kant and R K Krishna Kumar have often been tipped as favourites, but age is a factor that both have going against them.

It does not happen that way. This is only for Tata Motors.
Tata Sons holding is the key. That person will be the successor to Ratan.

Acharya avare, I am not implying that it will happen this way. Just saying that he would be a natural candidate as head of TM, especially given the earlier public announcements regarding potential foreign candidacies for Ratan N Tata's job.

Looking at Tata Sons' holding structure would place Noel Tata or Cyrus Mistry as contenders. But I have read somewhere that Ratan Tata also controls a very significant stake in Tata Sons as he also heads the Tata family charitable trust with a large stake in Tata Sons.

Anyways, the topic is way OT here, guess it should go elsewhere.

amdavadi
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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby amdavadi » 16 Feb 2010 00:41

It also depends on pallonji mistry.What his views are on new CEO.Since he is single largest share holder of tata sons & TG.

Vipul
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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby Vipul » 16 Feb 2010 20:29

The Tata's have never liked Pallonji.He lost their trust when some years back in the midst of the group restructuring he had tried to surrouptiously increase his stake in Tata Sons.If anything Ratan Tata would go out of his way to make sure that Pallonji's choice one way or the other is ignored.

sreeji
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Re: Indian Autos Thread

Postby sreeji » 16 Feb 2010 21:28

Pallonji took up Irish citizenship. Why would someone as old as him do that? :x


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