Indian Autos Thread

[Singha]

tata ace, mahindra and LML small cargo haulers are far lighter, more VFM and cheaper to run and operate. just today while returning from hospet to blr via bellary, took the turn into the smooth as sugar bellary-hiriyur state highway and ran into a situation where 2 trucks had collided, blocked the road and miles of vehicles stopped at both ends, fire brigade was hosing the scene down.

fortunately a friendly cop said psst why dont you take this "short cut" across the railway tracks and there is a back road that joins the hiriyur road a couple miles later. some short cut it turned out to be ...

so me and a bunch of people (tata ace cargo haulers, scorpios, M800s, altos...) took this route.....soon the road degenerated into moonscape of HUGE craters, the road surface became kutcha with a thick layer of iron ore, some fording obstacles were presented with 6" deep water and no idea how deep it was, so we waited and let a bus come along to find out how bad (it was ok)...anyways after MILES of driving through a apocalyptic landscape of iron ore piles, slag heaps and two steel factories that looked right out of mad max / apokolips set - huge , rusted to the bone, spewing black smoke...made it alive to main road in one piece. my santro didnt scrape bottom even once due to dhoti shiver mode handling, the M800 gave up and turned tail at some point, the scorpio surged ahead and vanished in a cloud of red dust...but ticking along right ahead of me like a faithful old terrier was this tata ace pathfinder vehicle.....whatever they did , I can assure you it will go where a arjun tank will go.

have to say parts of bellary must be the closest we have to industrial post-apocalyptic zones like buffalo, shanxi, shaanxi et al....the place CRAWLS with heavy vehicles...you doze off for 10 mins and wake to find a truck has crawled right up your a**. even regular old tata trucks are pressed into service to transport ore, covered by plastic...at each speedbreaker there is a red colour on road where it shakes loose....roadsides are red with ore...there aint no farming until you leave that place kilometers behind and enter the tungabhadra canal zone.

saw a vast array of AMW , tata, AL, Volvo and MAN heavy vehicles. AL has this spiffy 12 wheeler with two steerable front axles each with a pair of wheels....it looked just the ticket for a cheap desi 105mm SP vehicle or a pinaka TEL....the wheel well area is huge and the bigger stallion tires should fit.

[nachiket]

^^Your Civic might have done even better. Civics have an multi-link independent independent suspension right?

[Singha]

my civic would have broken into 3 neat pieces on some of the speedbreakers that exist in the bellary area...they are meant to deal with beastly sized trucks...vehicles are afterthought.
in the x-country part the front bumper would have broken , apart from damage to tailpipe area and numerous bottom scapes.

the genius of the santro design is its short wheel base and relatively stiff rear suspension which does not sag. once the front wheels go over a major speed hump, the rear wheels are already on the way up, lifting the whole car and preventing scrapes. the civic or any long wheelbase car will suffer this issue, but civic has a soft rear suspension that sags down with load which increases the tendency.

I *knew in me bones* was a wise decision to take my santro onlee.

that being said, the BLR_PUNE NH4 via tumkur is in SUPERB shape and pleasure to drive at whatever speed you want (I held to 80). its fully tolled, has a wide center median, wider lanes than blr-mysore SH, ZERO speed breakers, mostly fenced in village areas with service roads and beyond tumkur even very few pvt vehicles...mostly just trucks. the Neelamangala flyover at yeshwantpur is another wonder - its around 10 km long and takes you in 5 mins what took 1 hr earlier.....

the situation is ripe for long haul road trips beyond chitradurga ... even upto southern MH and Pune itself should be a breeze now.

the NH13 from chitradurga - hospet - bijapur seems under 4 laning and heavy cargo truck traffic...very unpleasant..so took the alternate hiriyur-bellary road which was 2 lane but butter smooth (a scraper was even removing the village speedbreakers) and bellary-hospet NH63 which was in bad shape but only 50km .also I took a indigo taxi from hospet to badami/pattadakal/aihole and back...he drove @ 100 where I would hesitate to drive at 40. once the 4 laning is done, hospet - bijapur should be a good smooth 200km pavement.

walked around 25km in sneakers in hampi over 7 hrs...have blisters the size of small red tomatoes on the feet to show for it.

[nachiket]

the situation is ripe for long haul road trips beyond chitradurga ... even upto southern MH and Pune itself should be a breeze now.

Well if you can drive upto Pune, then Mumbai is just 2.5 hours away and the Mumbai-Pune highway is even better and fully access controlled. Of course when you enter Mumbai, its a different story with the enormous amount of traffic.

My parents recently drove all the way to Hubli from Mumbai and had much praise for the NH4 as well.

[Singha]

indeed. I am thinking if someone drives 500km from blr to either hubli or dharwad for overnight halt, can continue next day via belgaum or karwar into goa.

due to the fencing , the constant risk someone emerging from the median ahead of you in fast lane, or vehicles comes ulta seen on blr-mysore is not there. the intersections are also well designed where it exists...in major places overpasses are used.

[JE Menon]

>>What values?

- I should have explained. I meant conservative, old-fashioned political values.... It's the marketing of the thing I'm talking about.

[Vipul]

Catchy mktg phrase to sell the Ambassador based junk will be:
"Brand new Vintage Car".

HM is proposing to introduce more variants of this six decades old design (People carrier, sub 4 meter and Retro) .

[ManjaM]

I guess the only way forward for Amby is to market it as a working vintage or something like that. Similar to the PT cruiser, Chevy HHR and the Chevy retro truck(forgot the name)But utter junk like this Veer will surely sink the brand. If it has to be done atleast do it right, provide an well designed and properly integrated bed such as the ones on the old old Ford trucks. Put in a better engine instead of the wheezing Isuzu1.5 and for the love of god, what is up with that plastic grille?
Its unbelievable that HM tries to launch something that is so far from finished as the Veer is. One has to be a complete nut to even contemplate buying it when you can get something like that ready for less than 1/2 the cost at the local garage.

[Ambar]

ManjaM, it is a company run by communist labor unions in WB, what more do you expect ? To the glee of Brits, we are still manufacturing the good old Morris Minor complete with the BMC side-valved engine from the 1940s! And then there is Royal Enfield - but atleast the later with some suave marketing strategies, Austrian technology and a decent service network has managed to reinvent itself. HM survived the last 2 decades thanks to government and military orders, now that the babus have shed last strand of decency and don't hesitate to buy 15-20 lakhs worth vehicles on taxpayers money, HM may well seize to exist ( not that i'm gonna miss it much).

[Raja Bose]

Got a 2012 VW Passat CC today for joy riding (I mean 'research and user study') and got pleasantly surprised both in the looks and handling department. Looks are definitely several notches higher than the usual frumpy looks that VW dishes out in Jetta/Passat - I daresay one of the best looking cars in the <$35K price range. Even the interiors felt pretty premium.The engine felt quite nice in pickup and super quiet to boot.

[Aditya_V]

Got a 2012 VW Passat CC today for joy riding (I mean 'research and user study') and got pleasantly surprised both in the looks and handling department. Looks are definitely several notches higher than the usual frumpy looks that VW dishes out in Jetta/Passat - I daresay one of the best looking cars in the <$35K price range. Even the interiors felt pretty premium.The engine felt quite nice in pickup and super quiet to boot.

Passat <$35K in US. In India ex-showroom INR 2.4 million. i.e INR 2.8 million on road a.k.a $ 60-65K onlee. Effect of our duty structure and High evadence of Direct Tax(not because of High rates but the Income is generally illegal).

[Gus]

Visited HM plant in WB about a decade ago. It was the funniest plant I have visited. People were just lazing around..and they would drink out of oil cans (they had alcohol stored in). At that time they had a WMA program (well made ambassador) and somebody told me they have reduced the number of hammers from something to something. A little later, I realised these were hammers to fit and assemble.

[VikB]

Civic - my father in law and his driver never fail to crib about its low road clearance. the huge steel block hits the even most minor of road pimples. Fiat Linea is better but still is low. Santro wisely has lot of clearance.

nano - is an awesome car. Drove it at 90+ when sitting alone. didnt feel much. took it easily. The perfect car for maddening cities like Delhi and Mumbai. But it is a victim of how media branded it. The lakhtakia tag has survived negatively. The company is pushing for major advt spend but then that can help only that much.
I again say- we dont buy oversized clothes. We go to a party with best and most expensive of our blazer/etc. For a normal city use - Nano is awesome.

[Rahul M]

Vik, can't you send some of the feedback on nano's image to the ears of the powers that be ?

[SureshP]

Auto Expo 2012 has industry on pins and needles
Murali Gopalan

If the 2010 Delhi Auto Expo was better remembered as an absolute nightmare for participants and visitors, things could be a lot worse in 2012.

With barely five months to go before the event kicks off in January, all manufacturers can do now is to keep their fingers crossed and hope for the best.

In 2010, the complaints ranged from the poor infrastructure at the venue, Pragati Maidan, to the abysmal restroom facilities. This state of affairs is bound to continue in 2012, sources say.

In fact, with the added pressure on space (with more participants entering the picture), the auto industry is gearing up for another catastrophic experience.

“It's a pity really. Here's one of Asia's biggest auto events being hosted in a venue that is not even remotely world-class. On the contrary, it is an embarrassment to India's image,” an auto sector CEO told Business Line.
Disgruntled lot

The industry was hoping that after 2010, two years were adequate to put the house in order. Nothing of the kind has happened and, today, the participants are a disgruntled lot.

“We are putting in big money for the Auto Expo and feel short-changed each time,” an official said.

On an average, the spend works out to ‘crores of rupees' for each company where rentals for the venue take up a lion's share. In addition, there are other overheads for hotels, conveyance and entertainment.

“And what do we get in return? Filthy restrooms, garbage piling up near eateries and unruly crowds who can make life difficult for the young models in our stalls,” the official added.
Space problem

Sensing that space was going to be a huge constraint, the key organisers — the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers, Confederation of Indian Industry and the Automotive Component Manufacturers Association of India — explored an alternative site in Noida near Delhi.

The other option was to house the ancillary suppliers elsewhere but this did not work out either. Finally, there was no choice but to go ahead with Pragati Maidan even though every nook and corner is in dire need of a facelift.

Of the 50,000 square metres space on offer, the vehicle makers will occupy roughly two-thirds with the balance taken up by the component sector.

Apparently, a section of manufacturers wanted more space but this was clearly out of the question. “We are lucky that we were not asked to downsize instead,” a company official quipped.
Needs better treatment

The industry believes that it is entitled to better treatment especially at a time when it is up against a sluggish market and the prospects of a slowdown are real.

“Allotting a substantial budget for the Expo during these troubled times involves a lot of pain. It is asking too much to expect standards on the lines of auto shows in Shanghai or Geneva?” an executive wondered.

For the moment, this is a farfetched idea and it would actually be a miracle if the 2012 Expo actually goes off smoothly without any major glitches.

Things may get even trickier in 2014 and this is where the auto industry would have to look at options beyond Pragati Maidan for the future.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... 340167.ece

[Singha]

they should instead shift the show elsewhere - BLR has a world class exhibition facility built up near Neelamangala.

http://www.biec.in/index.php?page=complex

no point pandering to delhi as the center of the universe...its time for the Outer Rim planets to band together and rise against the corrupt Core System...chart their own destiny and indeed the southern states and gujarat have already done so

toyota and ashok leyland plants are here. there's more in sriperumbudur and coimbatore, just short drives down excellent roads.

other than honda does any car maker have big plants near delhi? pune/chennai/blr looks far more appropriate for a auto-show to me!

delhi just reeks of a unprofessional way of doing things and depending on 'contacts' even to get milk coupons lol

[Prasad]

If the facility is that bad, why not shift to another location? Is Pragati Maidan the only location for a car show?

[Ambar]

Visited HM plant in WB about a decade ago. It was the funniest plant I have visited. People were just lazing around..and they would drink out of oil cans (they had alcohol stored in). At that time they had a WMA program (well made ambassador) and somebody told me they have reduced the number of hammers from something to something. A little later, I realised these were hammers to fit and assemble.

There are more hilarious stories about Commie-Amby! Back in the 80s my dad owned a Ambassador Mark3.Even when it was brand new, it required a full day's check-up at the shop before venturing on a 300 kms drive.The cooling system was so poor, the driver had to pop its hood at every stop. The boot had so many replacement parts ready that you could build another car with it! Apparently, the driveline was so terribly aligned it would wear off the universal joint ( the part where propeller meets the differential) after every couple of thousand kms! Our driver could actually replace one at the side of the road all by himself in less than 2 hrs! It truly made mechanics out of all men(and some women) who dared to drive it!

[Sriman]

other than honda does any car maker have big plants near delhi?

Maruti Suzuki.

[Singha]

oh yes had forgotten about MUL gurgaon and maneswar. still , they are likely the only biggie in that region vs pune , chennai or even blr(middleweight)

[chetak]

Visited HM plant in WB about a decade ago. It was the funniest plant I have visited. People were just lazing around..and they would drink out of oil cans (they had alcohol stored in). At that time they had a WMA program (well made ambassador) and somebody told me they have reduced the number of hammers from something to something. A little later, I realised these were hammers to fit and assemble.

There are more hilarious stories about Commie-Amby! Back in the 80s my dad owned a Ambassador Mark3.Even when it was brand new, it required a full day's check-up at the shop before venturing on a 300 kms drive.The cooling system was so poor, the driver had to pop its hood at every stop. The boot had so many replacement parts ready that you could build another car with it! Apparently, the driveline was so terribly aligned it would wear off the universal joint ( the part where propeller meets the differential) after every couple of thousand kms! Our driver could actually replace one at the side of the road all by himself in less than 2 hrs! It truly made mechanics out of all men(and some women) who dared to drive it!

You haven't seen our HAL's yet!!

[VikB]

Vik, can't you send some of the feedback on nano's image to the ears of the powers that be ?

My friends are there but then no one listens to nanha mujhaideen.

As I have been told, it is a matter of leadership crisis - serious one. They are under attack from different directions. But have no clue what to do. Nepotism is rampant. A chaiwallah loves to drive the similarity between the leadership of our country and that of this company

[VikB]

why do they need an auto expo anyway? I mean...people are flocking to New Swift even before details were made public. Indian auto expo is a big waste of time, money and models....

Laholvialkuat. how dare you. none of the 'models' are a waste. there are kadardans like moi who love to check them out - top to bottom (or maybe the other way)

[Singha]

bringing in a UK sahib will take Tata to the bottom for sure. already M&M has surged past them in sales.

[Vipul]

Not in Sales, M&M overtook Tata Motor in Market Cap.

[Ambar]

Wasn't Indira Nooyi rumored to be the next CEO of TATA ? I doubt if they'll hire a gora sahib to head a company with such deep Indian roots. As for Tata "turning around" Jaguar/LR, jingoism aside,lets not kid ourselves! Ford invested massively into R&D,replacements for the S-type and aging xj were in production or close to production when Tata used its free cashflow to profit from Ford's restructuring woes. If an iron grip management style does wonders to sales, then Japs would have been the no.1 auto makers in Europe!

[ManjaM]

http://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/ ... hed/9317/1

Equipped with a 2.2 liter FMTech Daimler engine putting out 141 PS at 3800 rpm, and a massive 321 Nm at 1600 rpm, this beast stands at a kerb weight of 2510 kilos. The power is delivered to the tarmac through 235/70/16R Apollo Hawkz and the overall dimensions comparable to any SUV in the market.

[Singha]

seems to be size of Ford Endeavour. parallel parking this thing near indian marketplaces or indeed in tiny parking areas of many shops could be a challenge.

[ManjaM]

any announcement or details about the vehicle is yet to make it to the force motors website. Looks like it might be a 7 seater atleast.

[Singha]

if one looks at the honda brio thailand launch ads and test drives the fit, finish and interior plastic looks quite good. the same city/civic style steering wheel and control knobs. the only cost cutting feature visible is the all-glass hatchback cover without metal frame - buy hey people pine for frameless EF style HUDs these days. uses the same engine as Jazz.

if they price it right, should be quite competitive vs the competition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4a8F6y7OEw

Jazz cannot attract the Swift crowd at any price (looks etc) but atleast might attract the family oriented Ritz/i20/Figo type buyer.

[Ambar]

Ford definitely did invest in next gen. Btw tm ceo is a gora sahib

Naa..i was talking about Indira Nooyi replacing Ratan Tata as the chairperson of Tata Group and not just TM.

[Dileep]

seems to be size of Ford Endeavour. parallel parking this thing near indian marketplaces or indeed in tiny parking areas of many shops could be a challenge.

What challenge. People don't park. They just stop wherever they please, and yell at anyone who object. that's all.

[Vipul]

Ford definitely did invest in next gen. Btw tm ceo is a gora sahib

Naa..i was talking about Indira Nooyi replacing Ratan Tata as the chairperson of Tata Group and not just TM.

Did not work out as she wants to stay in the US. BTW even Arun Sarin(Ex Vodafone) was considered at one time.

[Singha]

honda has no option but to localize aggressively, cut prices or exit the indian market.
civic sells far less than corolla and cruze,
city sales which were their dal n roti have cratered under the impact of new vento, verna types,
Jazz sold some ridiculous 100 units/pm under old pricing and
they are just about bringing their volume car Brio into India - YEARS after

and oh yeah the CR-V is fully imported and costs north of 25L - for $50K you could perhaps buy a vehicle several notches up in the usa.

their india strategy is a joke and whoever in HQ was asleep at the wheel while toyota , hyundai and vw were working hard deserves a kick on the behind.

[Aditya_V]

Singha-> remember us discussing Team-bhp never ending search for the perfect Hatch. some of the posters there is very disappointed that the new Chevy Beat diesel revs at 2900-3000 RPM at 100KPH in 5th gear and not 2000 rpm which means a high top speed is ruled out. Talk about expectations.

[Singha]

they could weld a ge404 on the roof :0 - navy style CODAG combo

[Ambar]

Singha, Toyota Motor Company was extremely lucky with their product and timing. I remember my friend driving up in a preproduction Qualis in late 1999 when they were still road testing it, i was flabbergasted at its ugliness even back then! Apparently, they had shipped the vehicle from Africa, and the initial dyes in the Bidadi plant also came from Africa. Luckily for them, Indian economy in 2000 was just warming up and was still recovering from license raj days, and the terribly built Mahindras and Tatas were the only players in UV sector. Qualis though from the late 70s was built like a rock, and was head over heels better compared to Mahindra and Tata products, then came the Innova - again a first in its segment. Toyota screwed up on pricing of Corolla and Camry initially but corrected the former. Had they launched something like Yaris (or whatever they call it in Asia) by 2002-03, they could have given Hyundai and Tata a run for their money.

The truth is, FDI policies did not allow 100% investment until 2002 forcing foreign companies to tie up with Indian companies, and more often than not the later had no contribution to product or capital. Many foreign auto companies were reluctant to do business in India and the japs were no different despite the success of MUL. If there's one company that got everything right it has to be Hyundai.From timing to products to service and brand building when Shahrukh Khan was no.1 - they didn't skip a beat.

[Aditya_V]

they could weld a ge404 on the roof :0 - navy style CODAG combo

[Aditya_V]

Singha, Toyota Motor Company was extremely lucky with their product and timing. I remember my friend driving up in a preproduction Qualis in late 1999 when they were still road testing it, i was flabbergasted at its ugliness even back then! Apparently, they had shipped the vehicle from Africa, and the initial dyes in the Bidadi plant also came from Africa. Luckily for them, Indian economy in 2000 was just warming up and was still recovering from license raj days, and the terribly built Mahindras and Tatas were the only players in UV sector. Qualis though from the late 70s was built like a rock, and was head over heels better compared to Mahindra and Tata products, then came the Innova - again a first in its segment. Toyota screwed up on pricing of Corolla and Camry initially but corrected the former. Had they launched something like Yaris (or whatever they call it in Asia) by 2002-03, they could have given Hyundai and Tata a run for their money.

The truth is, FDI policies did not allow 100% investment until 2002 forcing foreign companies to tie up with Indian companies, and more often than not the later had no contribution to product or capital. Many foreign auto companies were reluctant to do business in India and the japs were no different despite the success of MUL. If there's one company that got everything right it has to be Hyundai.From timing to products to service and brand building when Shahrukh Khan was no.1 - they didn't skip a beat.

They have launched the discontinued ECHO as ETIOS and it doing very well in the Indian market with Indian Buyers blissfully unaware that the reason why ECHO production was stopped was that its 900kg body failed crash 2005 crash test standards. Similarly people are also unaware of the dangers of the Ladder frame construction of Toyota Fortuner as opposed to monocoque bodies of the Hyundai Tuscan, Ford Endevour etc.

Seems Toyota has realised Indians dont really care about safety and are doing pretty well.

Other manufacturers like Honda city seem to use thinner 175mm tyres which dont seem to be adequate. Only Maruti SX4 ZXI , Corolla, Civic, Cruise and more than 20 lac cars seem to be shodd with tyres that are safe enough.

[Ambar]

ECHO was once sold in the US market in the early 2000s, i doubt it if it failed crash tests and yet allowed to be produced/sold in states. Anyways, vehicle safety is among the lowest concern of our government.What else can explain cars like M800,Omni,Amby etc still being sold ?The central govt vehicle testing facility in MH does not have a single crash room facility (atleast not until 2003).

As for Fortuner being a body-on-frame, i don't know what a Fortuner is, but it looks similar to Toyota Tacoma truck that is sold here. Most SUVs that are based on global platforms are usually body-on-frame as it allows manufacturers to build various versions on the same platform. Except for the body roll factor, body-on-frame does not have any other safety concerns. ( The ubiquitous Ford Crown Victoria - the legendary cop car is body on frame too).