South India River Water Issues/Disputes

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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Geeth, you can look at the Ministry of Water Resources summary which Dileep posted: Here is one excerpt too.
http://mowr.gov.in/index3.asp?subsublin ... &sslid=733
The Govt. of Kerala vide letter dated 26.9.2009 sent comments on the minutes of the meeting dated 31.7.2009 mentioning that the statement “The Govt. of Kerala also recognizes the established use of water from the dam by the Tamil Nadu as per the existing agreement between the two States and continue the same after the construction of new dam” is not acceptable. What was mentioned in the meeting was that Kerala is willing to give water to Tamil Nadu.
All this, we guarantee water, is a new thing. It was never guaranteed in the first place as the above para will indicate. The comment on minutes make it explicit. Historical use was thrown out and there was a vague promise to give water.
Further, Hon’ble Supreme Court heard the issues related to Mulla Periyar Dam on 10.11.2009 and passed the order that,
“As the case involves the resolution of said questions, the suit may be placed before the Hon’ble Chief Justice of India for necessary directions for placing it before a constitution Bench.

The contesting parties shall maintain status quo in respect of Mulla Periyar Dam as existing today. However, order of status quo will not be an impediment for the plaintiff (State of Tamil Nadu) to carry out maintenance and repairs for proper upkeep of the said Dam.”
What part of the status quo is not clear to you? The case is sub-judice and everything including the illegality and contempt of Court nature of the Act in the Kerala Assembly is under question. The verdict is not arrived yet.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

Just a question. Why store water at all at the Mullaiperiyar dam (okay just enough for the lake maybe and the tiger sanctuary), but anyways, the bulk of the water is diverted down to TN via the power house . So, build a storage facility in the TN side! Just take the water and don't store it at Mullaiperiyar! The water anyway gets diverted to Vaigai dam. Just expand it.

Kills many birds with one stone. Kerala politicos cannot scream safety anymore. Dileep can be rest assured that the Midlands will not get washed away. Vaiko et al can stop screaming, TN gets the water, just as in the 999 years agreement. So all fine and dandy. Everyone happy, except the Kerala politicos griping for more water to fill Idukki maybe and playing stealth ops.

So yeah, if a dam needs to be built, build it within TN borders on the Theni /Parakamakudi / Expanded Vaigai dam kind of thing. With no water stored at Mullaiperiyar, no problem anymore! Kerala need not spend a single paisa, all safety concerns are addressed. No more problems. Everyone happy.

Zimble only. Eh wot? Peace. :) :)
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by sanjeevpunj »

I'd say "Get on with the dam repairs before another quake rattles it and floods the region.These are not so peaceful times on earth,and any impending situation of a possible disaster like a dam burst must be prevented at all costs."
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by partha »

What if:

Kerala builds a new dam upstream behind the Mullaperiyar dam?!
God forbid the dam breaks down and is washed away? Will the agreement still hold after a new dam comes up in its place?
Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Vina,

Its not that simple.

The point where the two rivers meet is roughly 180 feet below Kumili saddle. Present reservoir freely elevates this water up to a point where it can flow to TN side. Also 80% + of water comes during SW monsoon. Even then in great downpours. Inflows of 10,000 cusecs- 15,000 cusecs are not unknown. Vaigai dam on TN side is never filled. Even overflow from Vaigai dam is used to fill the numerous tanks in Ramnathapuram. These dozens of tanks between them have about 6 TMC of capacity. Not a drop ever reaches the ocean.

Pumping such a quantity of water over the saddle is extraordinarily expensive. Siphon can only be used in a limited way. Tunnel would be 10-12 km long. Who would pay for all this. Also there is limits to the amount of water the valley can handle. Anything above 1500 cusecs causes severe erosion on Gudalur side. Entire roads and bridges have been swept away as the geology and rivers are narrow and not used to such flows. A 7000 cusec flood could easily flood the entire valley.

Dam is best option.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Vina,

Its not that simple.
Dam is best option.
Well, it is past the stage of "rational" / "best options" kind of thing anymore. I saw on TV yesterday the kind of drama that is going on in Kerala, it is thoroughly politicized now (there was a dog with a photo of Jayalalitha hanging from it's neck, there was some "effigy" burning, people marching kind of thing). It is beyond that now and it has become a football and "wedge issue" to milk dry for politicos in Kerala.

So, even if you agree with Kerala ("We will give all the water and we will build the dam". note, they carefully avoid talking about the 999 year lease) and bring down the existing dam (which is TN property) , you are just kicking the can down the road some 20 years or so, when the Kerala assembly just passes a resolution dissolving the 999 year agreement and you can do didly squat coz, you dont control the river any more. The key "strategic" thing is control and that is the ONLY way you can enforce the 999 year agreement, in the lack of the rule of the law in this country and shabby adherence to signed treaties and settled law.

How else can you give assurances like "1 crore liability for every person and every acre for all time to come" as demanded by Dileep (funny.. did he demand the same thing from the Idukki dam which is a far larger dam with far bigger reservoir?) .

The way out is NOT to build and store the water in Kerala anymore. The water is yours, so just take the water! All problems solved. One clean neat solution that leaves no scope for any more BS. Kerala of course can build a dam below the existing one if it wants. But once you take the water , the wisdom/rationale of building a new dam is disappears, the existing dam can stand where it is... Just put this thought out on the table and you can see the immediate change in tune from the Kerala politicos and all the "safety" concerns will vanish and sanity will immediately dawn.

But all the same, for a long term (999 year) physical solution rather than based on "rule of law /treaty" (as existing and what the ideal case should be), I think this could be the way out and will simply deflate the issue.
Vaigai dam on TN side is never filled. Even overflow from Vaigai dam is used to fill the numerous tanks in Ramnathapuram. These dozens of tanks between them have about 6 TMC of capacity. Not a drop ever reaches the ocean.
I am aware of it. In fact, I have seen the giant tank at RS Mangalam and as far as folks there can recall, it hasn't been filled in ages. That is part of the reason why I think storing water in TN is far better. You might need at best a small dam.. The Vaigai, further down Viraganoor, all the interconnected tanks to Vaigai in Madurai & Ramnad if spruced up and put back to use like in the old days (they are mostly empty beds now), it could be a good way to rejuvenate the old tank and lake based localized irrigation systems and solve this problem once and for all.
The point where the two rivers meet is roughly 180 feet below Kumili saddle. Present reservoir freely elevates this water up to a point where it can flow to TN side. Also 80% + of water comes during SW monsoon. Even then in great downpours. Inflows of 10,000 cusecs- 15,000 cusecs are not unknown.
When the dam was built some 1985/1900 that was the way to do it. With modern tunneling methods such as NATM building evacuation tunnels that go 250 feet below the Kumuli saddle through the mountain should be a piece of cake/laddu/sushi . Many dams these days (the Japanese pioneered them ?), have such tunnels just to remove silt from the dam. No need to raise the water above the saddle doing away with pumping/siphon etc.
Also there is limits to the amount of water the valley can handle. Anything above 1500 cusecs causes severe erosion on Gudalur side. Entire roads and bridges have been swept away as the geology and rivers are narrow and not used to such flows. A 7000 cusec flood could easily flood the entire valley.
Yeah. But that is an engineering challenge that can be handled. Maybe get the penstock pipes as close to Vaigai dam as needed., you really dont need to use the existing rivers and water channels on the Theni side, like in the present scheme of things.

Sure, it probably will cost a bit more than just replacing the dam (which will mean a disruption of 5 to 8 years given IST of existing water and irrigation arrangements, got to consider the cost of that as well) , or maybe not .But all the same, it will fix this problem for good.

If it takes some $1b over to 10 years to fix this for good, (assuming some $50 m per KM of tunnel like in Metro rail), some $500m + another $500m should nail this. For a state with TN's size and GDP, this really is nothing much at all.

Point is, you need a different plan from the existing scheme of things. Not that a negotiated settlement with Kerala should be ruled out if sanity returns there, but making plans based on that is unrealistic,it should not even be a plan B, but rather plan D or E. Plan A should be around taking the water out and enforcing the 999 year lease /treaty.

JMT.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shyam »

Whatever the problem is, an agreement for 999 years looks very ridiculous. Why can't this be settled at a national level after scrapping the current agreement?

Take two or three techinal nominees (no political nominees) from Kerala and TN, and technical experts from national level, study the regional requirements and capabilities, forcast the needs for next 100 years and then come up with a solution for sharing the resources and costs for next 100 years. Also agree that after 100 years, it will be reviewed after following a similar process.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

shyam wrote:Whatever the problem is, an agreement for 999 years looks very ridiculous. Why can't this be settled at a national level after scrapping the current agreement?
Ridiculous ? It is standard legal agreement, 99 years / 999 years. Do you think the thousands of trusts, properties, leases, legal deeds, whatever are ridiculous as well ?
Take two or three techinal nominees (no political nominees) from Kerala and TN, and technical experts from national level, study the regional requirements and capabilities, forcast the needs for next 100 years and then come up with a solution for sharing the resources and costs for next 100 years. Also agree that after 100 years, it will be reviewed after following a similar process.
What makes you think that this wasn't done 100 years ago when the lease was signed. Now that it is a done deal, why will any party want to open it, especially if they have anything to lose from the status quo. It is like saying that after you sell 5 acres of land to someone /sign a 999 acre lease, you have 20 kids and then go back to the person you leased it to /sold it to and ask to revisit the sale. It cannot be done, unless both sides want to do it.

In fact it is as ridiculous as France trying to go back to USA and trying to annull the Lousiana Purchase , where NAPOLEON sold close to 25% of current US territory to the USA or the Russians going back to USA and trying to reopen Alaska Purchase because current French and Russian rulers claim that the French and Russian politicos were "bribed"/"incompetent"/"whatever" in selling 25% of US land area for 60m Francs and Russian for selling out Alaska for $7.5m (just think of the oil coming out of Alaska today or the value of the entire central portion of US).

See, just as I said, put the "TN will take the water and store it on the TN side, you can do whatever you want with another dam downstream" proposition on the table and the tune will start to change. No problem with safety anymore eh ?

Like I said, if you take the water and store it in TN, you can write not just 1 corer but 400000 crore liability for every man, woman,child animal, and their inlaws for 4000000 years to come for everyone who is going to inhabit the land downstream in Kerala. No problem.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Shyam, the crudeness of the propaganda machinery is such that someone has edited the wikipedia entry of Achutha Menon saying that his biggest crime was to sign an amendment to the 999 yr lease. Seriously?! Duh.... I saw the entry like a week back and that part was not there. For his part, all bios make him out to be a man of integrity like EMS or Achuthanandan. Caustic, communist, but integrable. Counterfactual and post facto history is so idiotic.

First reports in this rehash made it sound like lime surki is like sugar. Some reports said Kerala politicians were bribed, incompetent etc. If a 90+% literate state elects CMs who are incompetent, what to do with 50% literate states in India? JJ and Mu Ka are openly bribable, yet they have nt sold out, noone has caught EMS or Achutha Menon with a bribe and yet they are incompetent and bribable? I see that the Kerala side is sensing a "kill" here, thats why all this rona dhona. What to make of Deepu Santh's blog like post on rediff? What is his expertise on this matter other than being Sreesanth's brother and being an actor? The standard argument is of structures failing in a zone 3 seismic zone as if TN is sitting on zone 0. We have 1000+ year old temples, 1800 year old dams that are still running fine, we have all kindsa structures that exist in zone 3 seismic zones in TN (Nilgiri Hills, Madras, Chengalpattu, MGR, Thiruvalloor districts, borderareas with KA, KL, AP, Madurai, Theni, Virudhunagar, everything is zone 3). Kallanai is not made of concrete and steel, it is made of lime surki onlee. It is not too big to fail, it is just taken care of well by the same engineers.

Noone talks of the safety of Idukki dam though. If Mullaipperiyar fails, 35 lakh people may or may not die, but if Idukki fails, 1 crore will surely die. Can we reconstruct Idukki now? Idukki was not constructed with the best engg practices of the 21st century, but of the 60s. Why not talk of reconstructing that too? I am pretty sure I wont jump into Idukki too given that I am paki, but those who surely will, can they express their pains and sorrows?
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shyam »

The problem I see is that the states are seeing it as their private issue. How come they don't see it as a common issue that needs a solution.

Let me ask for arguments sake, since the contract is signed between British Madras State and Kingdom of Travancore, who inherits the rights now? Does TN inherit British Madras State? No, several parts of Madras state are not there in TN; Kerala has Malabar part. Does Travancore become Kerala? No, Kanyakumari went to TN. So the earlier contract itself becomes ambiguous about its inheritors. Since Malabar is now in Kerala, Kerala also owns part of the contract claimed from TN side. May be Andhra and Karanataka also can claim to be part owners of the 999 year contract and can voice their opinion.

To talk about eternal sancticity of contracts, the kingdoms joined Indian Union under the contract that they will be given certain privy purse. But GoI unilaterally abrogated that and nobody questions the validity of those contracts signed at the time joining. When Kerala government implemented land reforms, it didn't care if there was any contracts owned by the land owners. National concerns can affect and can override the contracts signed within the country, anytime.

Stan/Theo: I have a simple question for you guys. Why are TN parties hang on to this 999 year contract and treat it so sensitively? What are they so afraid of, in the negotiation? Can't it be handled in a pure technical level, without any bias? TN needs the water and I doubt anybody from Kerala will object to it. What Kerala will want from that, apart form safety of the dam, is the hydel power. I'm not sure how popular was hydel power when the 999 year agrement was signed 100 years ago.

Looking at the way it is progressing, any time mallus can be attacked in TN and vice versa (like it happened during Kaveri riots). It is being converted into a very politically sensitive issue.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by chaanakya »

All agreements and treaties between Princely states and British India lapsed by enacting India Independence Act 1947. This agreement between Travancore and Madras Presidency also lapsed. It was revived by an agreement between Kerala and TN in 1970. Its validity can not be questioned as of now.

Water is almost all diverted to Vaigai through brilliant engineering design/concept. Power house is situated in TN in Lower periyar dam.
While TN has possession of operations of Dam, it pays meagre sums as land tax , electricity surcharges and water charges to Kerala.

Nawrthies have been attacked(hindi issue), kannadigas have been attacked (cauvery issue) and now is it the turn of Mallus ( Mullaiperiyar issue)?? Sentiments get inflamed so easily. I don't think it would be a wise decision to keep it lingering and fighting with each other.
The only solution is to sit together and sort out issues.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by chandrasekaran »

chaanakya wrote:Nawrthies have been attacked(hindi issue), kannadigas have been attacked (cauvery issue) and now is it the turn of Mallus ( Mullaiperiyar issue)?? Sentiments get inflamed so easily. I don't think it would be a wise decision to keep it lingering and fighting with each other.
The only solution is to sit together and sort out issues.
Usually am a passive reader of all the forums, but couldn't stop responding to this. Compared to the attacks on tamils @ Bangalore during the cauvery dispute, nothing really happened in Chennai or for that matter in TN. There was never a large scale riot against kannadiga's in TN ever.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by ManishH »

Great now this thread can be merged with the "link language" one :-)
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by narenS »

chaanakya wrote:<SNIP>

Nawrthies have been attacked(hindi issue), kannadigas have been attacked (cauvery issue) and now is it the turn of Mallus ( Mullaiperiyar issue)?? Sentiments get inflamed so easily. I don't think it would be a wise decision to keep it lingering and fighting with each other.
The only solution is to sit together and sort out issues.
<OT Alert>
Usually a lurker, but I couldnt let this pass. There was no attack on "Nawrthies" or Kannadigas on any issue. I agree, there were protests against them, but it never went to a point of physically attacking anyone. TN police may be subservient to political masters, but they are not a wimp to allow these despicable acts to go unpunished.

So please, dont pass hearsay as facts!
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

shyam wrote: Stan/Theo: I have a simple question for you guys. Why are TN parties hang on to this 999 year contract and treat it so sensitively?
Shyam, you should take a look at the SC judgment of 2006 that I posted a while back. All your remarks were made by Kerala and all were dismissed. The SC gave a verdict and explained why the agreement made by the Madras Province and the Kingdom of Travancore is still kosher. Madras Province was a large piece of land on the map yes, but all the water from Mullaipperiyar have been used only to irrigate and feed the 4-5 Southern districts of what is now TN. So if you want to pull up AP, parts of KA, etc., into the picture, the SC did nt like that and did nt allow that. Surprise surprise, these arguments were actually made even in the 70s and guess what, there are books written on these kindsa whine profiles. Again, as I pointed out to Shaardula, its a dispute. Two people see this in two different ways, and there is an adjudicator provided for Constitutionally. People have made these arguments and they are being re-hashed in different vernacular magazines without actually explaining that these very arguments have been dismissed.

Why is TN so sensitive about a 999 yr lease? Well, because it cant change geography and come in the path of the SW monsoon if it so chooses and wants so that it can shortcircuit its water woes. It is destined with its geography and all the woes that geography bestows it. It cant also go back in time and ask for some of the divisions of the Idukki district which were Tam majority in 1956 (and today) to be handed back. Kamaraj did nt make it an issue, and there it remains. No undoing such stuff because we will open a Pandora's box then. You cant also go back to the Raja of Poonjar days and say this was Pandyan father married to a Chera mother. Ditto for Sangam era nonsense. They may or may not be truths, but we are today and not in the past. So many arguments are made in so many blogs that they seem so surreal. Revisionism to suit convenience and divorced from realities of today is no fun.

If you cant undo these things, the only solution is to stick to agreements legally made over time. Stick to agreements and let trust win over the edges that make both sides uncomfortable. Both sides have to agree and understand the issues of each other. As of now, TN is not talking, I have found a grand total of 1 book in Tam on TN's explanation of the issue. And the book costs a grand total of Rs. 30 if you can find it. All of TN's arguments are before the SC/apex court etc. And needless to say, these arguments have resulted in status quo, so it means that there is some Constitutional validity to the argument of the TN side. I dont believe that Kerala has no Constitutional expert who could make people in TN run in circles or the TN folks bribed their way to the SC. Justice (Retd) VR Krishna Iyer did argue at one point for the Kerala side and continues to do so in different avenues. The people who signed the amendments and different aspects of the agreement had their feet on both sides like Sir. CP Ramasami Iyer. I dont bite these "people were stupid" arguments. If the outliers of today are as intelligent and smart as some of the outliers of the bygone era, we wont have as many problems today.

You want to bargain for how much is the lease amount, I think that should be kosher. You want to talk about electricity issue, that is definitely kosher. If you want to talk sustainability and growth in different regions, bring it on. I would be happy if Kudankulam gets in and the electricity is supplied to the Kerala part of the grid and TN revisits how much it pays to Kerala and puts it on an inflation-driven scale rather than let it be revisited once every 30 years. Actually, a proposal like this was made in one of the Lok Sabha debates. And guess what, am I to be surprised that both Kudankulam and Mullaipperiyar are getting into stalemate zone at around the same time? What next? Neyveli, Kalpakkam? If you talk about control or joint control or such things, it is a completely different territory. Again, safety or benefits has nothing to do with control. If anyone denies that safety is not of concern, then he/she is irrational and deserves to be cussed at and pissed at independent of how smart, rational and great they are. But if its a question of control/who owns, that is not the same league as safety. You are talking of property disputes here. Safety and control are not ==, neither morally or legally or even by any other standard you want to look at it.

Theo, there was an amendment in 1970 and that amendment allowed TN to generate electricity from the water stored. There was no new agreement as you make it. The original agreement had no electricity generation explicitly written down even if the Madras Province generated electricity even before 1970 by passing a written note and getting protested at on and off depending on how much water was there in the lean season. The 1970 amendment put that on paper. As you said, the construction of the Idukki and the woes in generating electricity there made Kerala revisit all the things they signed onto. There are no two things about it.
Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Stan,

Thanx for the clarification. Wasn't aware it was an amendment.
--------------------------------------

I find it odd that only the random comment is now being made on safety. We have conceded new dam is needed. But now only Kerala should build the dam. And now the entire agreement is flawed. Unfair. Dam control should be given up. Everything is back on the table.

As an example of why TN will never negotiate on 999 years & control of dam take a look at Punjab & Haryana. Haryana receives water from rivers that don't even flow near it. So Punjab unilaterally decided that it would no longer supply water. Haryana goes dry despite Punjab then being forced to release surplus water to Pakistan.

TSP very happy.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shaardula »

But Theo SI is not NI. I doubt KL needs water for the type of crops it grows and given the type of rains it gets. unlike other disputes. this not about the quantum of water. right?

as stan has suggested, if a certain cusecs necessary for the sustainability of SoTN are agreed to be non-negotiable, then i think it is ok in this case for people to go on short term agreements about other things. thats eminently rational.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shaardula »

we will need engineering brains to solve the problem of the peninsula. its geography here is very diverse. we have near rain-forest conditions right next to semi-arid deserts. but it has enough water for all, provided it rains sufficiently. brains are wasted writing apps for fancy fones and maxy pads.
Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Rice production annual. From Vaigai/Periyar water. Mostly Periyar.

Theni - 60,000 Tonnes.
Madurai - 360,000 Tonnes
Sivaganga - 350,000 Tonnes
Ramanathapuram - 270,000 Tonnes.

Total 1,040,000 Tonnes. Just over 1 Million tonnes.
----------------------------------

Kerala total Rice production. With unlimited water.

550,000 tonnes.
chaanakya
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by chaanakya »

chandrasekaran wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Nawrthies have been attacked(hindi issue), kannadigas have been attacked (cauvery issue) and now is it the turn of Mallus ( Mullaiperiyar issue)?? Sentiments get inflamed so easily. I don't think it would be a wise decision to keep it lingering and fighting with each other.
The only solution is to sit together and sort out issues.
Usually am a passive reader of all the forums, but couldn't stop responding to this. Compared to the attacks on tamils @ Bangalore during the cauvery dispute, nothing really happened in Chennai or for that matter in TN. There was never a large scale riot against kannadiga's in TN ever.

Well , then it can also be added. Tamils were attacked in Bagaluru. One can continue in the same vein, though unrelated to current situiation, Tamils were also attacked in Mumbai in late sixties and early seventies. Bhaiyyas have been attacked in mumbai not so many years ago. All sawthies, irrespective of the state they belong to, are clubbed with common derisive epithet of "Madrasi". Even NE people have grudge and a genuine one at that.India has lots of examples of such crap when communities are targeted based on various factors.

And , When I say attack, I don't mean physical only. It could be verbal as well. What inflame the sentiments of one community/group against the other resulting in breakdown of communication and understanding.

But I am happy that at least you have come out of your lurker mode. You might as well make an assertion to some "Mallu" board members that no such thing would be allowed to happen in TN despite inflamed passions on Mulaiperiyar issue.

@ narenS
As regards TN Police capabilities , I am only too well aware of that. Perhaps you would recall burning of three Agri college girls in a Bus burning incident in Dhrmapuri district by supporters of current regime. Where was police ? Some of the attackers have been given death sentence but police had squarely failed to discharge its duty at the time resulting in tragic deaths.

So I appreciate when they do well but please don't give blanket statements.And what you say hearsay was splattered all over newspapers of the days. And I don't mean all members of respective communities are guilty in the matter.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by chaanakya »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Rice production annual. From Vaigai/Periyar water. Mostly Periyar.

Theni - 60,000 Tonnes.
Madurai - 360,000 Tonnes
Sivaganga - 350,000 Tonnes
Ramanathapuram - 270,000 Tonnes.

Total 1,040,000 Tonnes. Just over 1 Million tonnes.
----------------------------------

Kerala total Rice production. With unlimited water.

550,000 tonnes.
Kerala imports ( also smuggling) lots of rice from TN. It is not self sufficient . I think these varities must be being grown in these areas covered by irrigation waters from Vaigai dam. Hence it is in their interest to supply water.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shyam »

Well... Mallus were attacked in TN long back. This was when MGR decided to enter TN politics against Karunanidhi. Since MGR was a mallu, DMK started calling all mallus "Malayalathans" and started attacking them, even mallus traveling from north to Kerala by train were not spared. However, no way Tamils were responsible for this as they demostrated by electing MGR in the next election.

What I would say is that when the issue become politically sensitive, desparate players like DMK/DK will try to exploit this.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shyam »

chaanakya wrote:Kerala imports ( also smuggling) lots of rice from TN. It is not self sufficient . I think these varities must be being grown in these areas covered by irrigation waters from Vaigai dam. Hence it is in their interest to supply water.
Absolutely. Many mallus stopped farming food and prefer planting rubber. Some of my relatives did this few years back.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by geeth »

All this, we guarantee water, is a new thing. It was never guaranteed in the first place as the above para will indicate. The comment on minutes make it explicit. Historical use was thrown out and there was a vague promise to give water.
Stan, Sorry for being late.I was travelling.

If guarantee of water supply is what TN wants, it can be arranged without much difficulty, and the Govt of India can stand as guarantor. To me, rest everything appears to be polemics, (at least to me). I can understand the plight of Jayalalitha..If she agrees for anything other than status quo, then everyone including you would bay for her blood.

At the same time, one cannot hang a Democle's sword over a population of 40 lakhs and say, our farming activity is more important than your lives. No amount of assurances can put to rest the fear in the minds of people there. Last 3 days I was in Kerala..frankly I didn't know the gravity of the situation. Some are complaining that they are unable to sell their lands, others saying not able to get married etc etc..It was not such a problem till now. The fear has crept in due to the recent earth Quakes.

No point in endless arguments. My last post.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Some posts above were mentioning that TN erupts with violence, been there done that yada yada, Dharmapuri yada yada....
Kerala dam demand fury
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111207/j ... 848885.jsp
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

The Kerala "incidents" seem like a carefully calibrated build up starting with the "Dam 999" (why 999 ?) movie, and the creation of mass hysteria, culminating in violence .

Sure, it is an idiot "tactically" brilliant move by the Kerala politicos like the Pakis. What if the goons on the TN side close all the border crossings of Kerala into TN ? No more driving out of Kerala and no more trains out , no fruits, veggies, rice etc. Not that they are thinking at all beyond their immediate show boating and noise and they probably think that they can "control" this, but such things have a way of spilling out of control. The Congress -Mani dude and of course the CPI-M Atchudanandan are playing with fire.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Aditya_V »

Tamil pilgrims, vehicles being attacked in Kerala”

While Dam safety is justifiable issue and should be looked into, this mass hysteria that the Dam is going to collapse any movement and 50 lac people are going to die today or any day needs to be dipped in the Bud. The producers of DAM999 need to checked and exposed- I f I am right some ME based Sheiks are part of the enterprise.

Why are so many people in the way of Periyar River anyway? Does it mean 40-50Lac people have encroached on what was the River bed of Periyar River on its natural course before the Dam was built in 1895??

As per the 2011 census, Kerala has a population of 3.3crore, is 15% of the States population living on the erstwhile River Bed?

P.S in the link Stan posted the 116 year Dam has now become 'Centuries Old' indicating the dam is now suddenly 400-500 year old.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Dileep »

^^What kind of bloody stinking LIE is that? There were no attacks anywhere in Kerala. A few days ago, there were road blockages, but pilgrim vehicles were allowed to pass.

On the contrary, several KL vehicles are attacked in TN. Even now, many people are stuck there, fearing for their lives. Shops and establishments owned by Keralites are being attacked in Chennai. There were visuals on TV.

I am sorry to say this. TN is behaving exactly like Pakis. And our govt is behaving exactly like SDREs, ie cowering in the dhothies, trying to please for life!!
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by habal »

Some vehicles ferrying Sabarimala pilgrims from TN were attacked in Kerala, but 'RSS' hindutwavadis intervened in the issue to ensure safe passage to the tamilians.

Wonder if this favor is reciprocated in TN also and samaritans coming to the aid of mallus in distress ? . . maybe not . . not crossing my fingers
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Aditya_V »

Dileep wrote:^^What kind of bloody stinking LIE is that? There were no attacks anywhere in Kerala. A few days ago, there were road blockages, but pilgrim vehicles were allowed to pass.

On the contrary, several KL vehicles are attacked in TN. Even now, many people are stuck there, fearing for their lives. Shops and establishments owned by Keralites are being attacked in Chennai. There were visuals on TV.

I am sorry to say this. TN is behaving exactly like Pakis. And our govt is behaving exactly like SDREs, ie cowering in the dhothies, trying to please for life!!

Where in Chennai, I have lot of Mallus as freinds here? Nobody has been attacked or there is no such news in Chennai- unless TN media has completely blacked this out and being a big city none whom I know has been in the area where the attack hapended.

Dileep, see the Telegraph India link, they clearly mentions TN registered Vehicles are being stoned and 7 trucks with TN registration being set on fire.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by narenS »

Dileep wrote:^^What kind of bloody stinking LIE is that? There were no attacks anywhere in Kerala. A few days ago, there were road blockages, but pilgrim vehicles were allowed to pass.

On the contrary, several KL vehicles are attacked in TN. Even now, many people are stuck there, fearing for their lives. Shops and establishments owned by Keralites are being attacked in Chennai. There were visuals on TV.

I am sorry to say this. TN is behaving exactly like Pakis. And our govt is behaving exactly like SDREs, ie cowering in the dhothies, trying to please for life!!
Dileep, i dont know why would you call that a lie unless you have evidence that backs you up.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/attacks-on-s ... 0-116.html .. here is another link on attack.

And regarding attacks on Keralites in TN, if at all they happened and if at all they are of the intensity as described by the hyperventilating press and most importantly if at all they are true, then they are deplorable.

But an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

And i take strong exception in calling one's fellow country man "paki". And, with all due respect, by calling so, is paki behavior.

If you are willing to discuss facts and not emotion, i am game for it. Lest, I will have to ignore your rants,for want of better word. And for calling TN people as paki, i am reporting your post.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by svenkat »

I slack the expertise of gurus here.But I think I have a grasp of political reality.

Kerala was short changed by the British which treated TN as their favoured child.There is nothing in Hindu traditions which supports this monstrous trweaty that deprives Kerla of its natural rights,diverts and changes the course of the river damaging the environment in the western ghats in Kerala.As far as I know,no other river has been 'raped' like this in India.

During British perod and upto much later times,people cared two hoots about eco-systems of rivers,the upland source of river etc.The accent was on control,use,transfer.The British barbarians thought that Keralas water can be transferred to TN.

But now,belatedly,Kerala has realised that its most important river is deprived of water.The needs of Kerala has risen.Kerala has lost lush forests in the artficial reservoir.There is no benefit whatsoever to Kerala.Kerala is being asked to sacrifice for Indian unity.

Kerala was critically dependent on Palaghat pass.Still,it is dependent on it.But the Konkan railway and the NH through Mangalore,Panaji has liberated Kerala.The Punalur pass was critical to travancore earlier,but not anymore.The richer mallus use aeroplane.

One must not forget that chakyars were the first suicide squads who fought invading chozha armies.The sambandam relationship,the growth of malayalam was a conscious rejection of certain tamizh mores in favour of northern traditions.As Shivji once remarked,the telugu,kannadiga and mallu people have made a clear departure.It is their choice.For obvious reasons,nobody wants to discuss these issues.

But I suspect that the cheras do not have the same distrust for the original 'paandis' than the generic paandis,not withstanding thugs like the pseudo paandi vaiko.A mudaliar dravidian statesman like Anbazhagan realises that the mullaiperiyar treaty is on a different footing from the Cauvery issure where TN has long standing,legitimate rights as a lower riparian state.

'Most' Tamizh people who are Hindus,realise that the waters of Kerala are a gift/bounty and would seek reasonable compromise with Kerala.The Pandyan land has no ancient rights on mullaiperiyar,whose waters now bless the parched land as far away as ramanathapuram.I feel the 'leaders' of Pandyan land should negotiate with Cheras for a compromise.How on earth are we going to do that when there are no pandyas/cheras but a homogenised TN/Kerala,I have no idea.

My 2 paise.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by Aditya_V »

S Venkat, the only reason Kerala amended the Treaty in 1970 was they receive abundant rainfall thanks to Western Ghats being the way of SW moonsoon and receive more than enough rainfall for their agricultural needs. In fact Kerala has a problem of lack of adequate land between the Western Ghats and the Arabian sea.

Even the Mullaperiyar dam is dismantled tomorrow and Periyar river restored to its normal flow, Kerala farmers will not greatly benefit and increase production as the water will be excess to their needs. In TN however, farmers will need to move from 2 crops a year to 1 crop a year.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

Kerala was short changed by the British which treated TN as their favoured child
There was NO KERALA (as a state as it is constituted today) during British times, and for that matter, neither was there a Tamil Nadu in it's current form , EVER in history.

Same problem as with the Karnataka folks whining about "unequal" treaties during the days of Madras presidency. Well, Madras presidency was both the Upstream AND Downstream state sharing water with another Kingdom called Mysore in the middle. With Travancore, they tapped a river that was just at the border and far far away from the heartland of Travancore and in fact if you go to Munnar and see the old British Tea Estates (Thomas & Finlay ?) now Tata Tea and see the remnants of the ropeway, you realize that the Tea in Munnar was got down to the railhead on the Theni side and transported!

The problem is that with the state reorg, if you want to change existing water , land use, commerce flows and all that for the sake of some ridiculous politics, there is no end to it. Those are historical facts and you just have to accept them. Now, if the question is safety, it can be addressed sensibly. If safety is a trojan horse for other agenda like reopening signed treaties and settled water use patterns, there is simply no end to this.

And yeah, you can create more hysteria and Dam9999 ,nothing will happen and if your politicos and assorted thugs ratchet up this and let it spill out into violence, you basically shoot yourself in your two feet. JMT.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by narenS »

My 2 paisa..

Considering it is a safety issue, why cant all involved parties wait for supreme court. Or form a joint panel to look into the safety issues.

But, if the hidden agenda is to rewrite the 999 year treaty,well it is not going to fly in TN. No politician worth a salt can survive after signing such an agreement and all moves to work together will fail.

It is better to decouple the issues and approach it only from a humanitarian point of view. Is the dam safe or not, not withstanding biased studies from either sides. We need a neutral point of view on this. If it is not safe, then it needs to be looked into as to how to shore up the dam or build a new one.

And no amount of fear mongering is going to help Kerala's case and no amount of Grand Standing from TN will assuage Kerala of dam's safety. It is high time some sensible heads get to work on this.

Alas , sensibility, it is too much to ask for, these days...
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

But now,belatedly,Kerala has realised that its most important river is deprived of water.The needs of Kerala has risen.Kerala has lost lush forests in the artficial reservoir.
So I take it that Kerala is going to dismantle the far bigger Idukki dam and reservoir and let the river flow it's natural course!
There is no benefit whatsoever to Kerala.Kerala is being asked to sacrifice for Indian unity.
The Periyar tiger reserve and Thekkady lake are interdependent. Without that lake there wouldn't be that reserve. Surely you dont mean to say that if the Kerla demand of new dam in place of the existing one is accepted, and the Thekkady lake will somehow become "useful" to Kerala and there will no submergence of land!
Kerala was critically dependent on Palaghat pass.Still,it is dependent on it.But the Konkan railway and the NH through Mangalore,Panaji has liberated Kerala.The Punalur pass was critical to travancore earlier,but not anymore.The richer mallus use aeroplane.
Hmm. Somehow I think that there are far far more people (orders of magnitude more people) who prefer to use trains and buses (ask Kallada travels) to travel between Kerala and other parts of the country. Sure. Try using the Konkan railway and the NH through Mangalore to go to Bangalore, Hyd, Chennai, Coimbatore , Kolkata or any place and you will know the back breaking costs you will take on yourself and forget about even moving heavy cargo through it.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by vina »

narenS wrote: If it is not safe, then it needs to be looked into as to how to shore up the dam or build a new one.

And no amount of fear mongering is going to help Kerala's case and no amount of Grand Standing from TN will assuage Kerala of dam's safety. It is high time some sensible heads get to work on this..
I think this new dam business @ the existing site is totally not necessary. You will be kicking this issue another 20 years down the road. Best way is to solve it once and for all. Like I posted earlier, dont store the water at all in Kerala. That will address the "safety" issue in perpetuity and the TN water use issue as well. Drill a tunnel using latest tunneling technology (Tunnel Boring Machines and NATM ) that will take the water from the confluence of Periyar and Mullaiyar under the Kumili saddle and store the water in TN at Vaigai dam and expanded tanks and other storage.

Part of the problem with raising the water to full level of 152 feet or whatever at Thekkady is also submergence of land . A 100 years ago, it was a malaria infested , zero inhabitation zone. Now there is huge encroachemnt and pressure on the land and a large part of the anti dam movement is from those encroachers and others surrounding the lake. No lake, all the the land in the existing reservoir can either be returned back to it's original state or Kerala can let it be encroached upon, upto them I guess. If they think the Periyar tiger sanctuary and the ecosystem is worth preserving (I think it is), the lake can easily be maintained.

But look at the hypocricy of those who claim "environmental degradation" due to Mullaiperiyar. One would think that it was Idukki and not Periyar that is the global bio diversity hotspot and tiger reserve! Just check out what this Kerala website says about Thekkady and Idukki Kerala Wildlife
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shaardula »

saar,
Same problem as with the Karnataka folks whining about "unequal" treaties during the days of Madras presidency. Well, Madras presidency was both the Upstream AND Downstream state sharing water with another Kingdom called Mysore in the middle. With Travancore, they tapped a river that was just at the border and far far away from the heartland of Travancore ...

The problem is that with the state reorg, if you want to change existing water , land use, commerce flows and all that for the sake of some ridiculous politics, there is no end to it. Those are historical facts and you just have to accept them. Now, if the question is safety, it can be addressed sensibly. If safety is a trojan horse for other agenda like reopening signed treaties and settled water use patterns, there is simply no end to this.
At the time of original signing the upstream and downstream was with brits, mid stream was with mysore. so the british presidency got more water.

please to tell what the utilization of water by the brits in the upstream parts of kaveri was. upstream kaveri is water soaked hilly region. if you stand for half an hour in one place moss will grow on your feet. people there are more worried about nanju. the people grow crops that grow on slopes. so what type of irrigation did the brits do upstream? i also dont know how brightly the brits lit up the hills. the parts of kodagu abutting malenad and bayalu seeme, are irrigated by harangi that was built by mysore (Sir MV). the british agreement was based on their bigger stick. nothing else. mysore was a vassal, we paid kappa.

also saar, the hills feed two major basins (krishna - kaveri) and then half the water flows westwards.

History does not start with brits. upstream kaveri has been strongly allied to the plains of karnataka for ever. upstream kaveri came under madras only as a consequence of the the fall of tipu.

water land use, commerce flows... seriously, you think upstream kaveri flew over midstream kaveri and traded exclusively with downstream kaveri?

from what i see, there are three geographical parts the hills, the malenad/bayaluseeme (sahyadris to nilgiris), then land south of nilgiris, which are again plains. the allocation should be based on these regions. and not on states.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... birgen.png
Last edited by shaardula on 07 Dec 2011 21:43, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by narenS »

vina wrote: I think this new dam business @ the existing site is totally not necessary. You will be kicking this issue another 20 years down the road. Best way is to solve it once and for all. Like I posted earlier, dont store the water at all in Kerala. That will address the "safety" issue in perpetuity and the TN water use issue as well. Drill a tunnel using latest tunneling technology (Tunnel Boring Machines and NATM ) that will take the water from the confluence of Periyar and Mullaiyar under the Kumili saddle and store the water in TN at Vaigai dam and expanded tanks and other storage.
+1. Anything that resolves the issue. By moving the dam, if it resolves the issue in perpetuity, then better do that.
I suspect, the next red flag that would be waived is the cost. Would Kerala and TN work out a mutually accepted method of cost sharing? Kerala, was never a cash rich state, even though it gets huge remittances and TN is almost on the brink owing to near sighted populist moves by politicos.

The problem was further accentuated by fear mongering by Kerala politicians. They are riding the back of tiger and the tiger stopped and is now threatening to turn back.

[/quote]
vina wrote: But look at the hypocricy of those who claim "environmental degradation" due to Mullaiperiyar.
The environmental degradation cry is absolute nonsense. A bunkum argument made, just in case, if all else fails.

The point is, if mullaperiyar posses a grave threat, better get down to work on it and try to resolve it. No point in fear mongering and indulging mass hysteria. It will only precipitate the matters. Either build a dam downstream or move the dam permanently to TN. For that, we got to know the truth. Is the dam safe?

Surprisingly, for a dam under grave threats, i dont find an authoritative scientific study conducted that lays all doubts to rest.
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Post by shaardula »

i find that the theory that Madras presidency owned both upstream and downstream and thus the treaty between MP and Mysore state was justified is bunkum. Here is why: MP did not control the entire upstream of cauvery. The upstream under MP was lesser than the upstream under MS.

kaveri tributaries in KA.
1 Harangi 717 sq kms (catch area) Pushpagiri Hills(Origin) 50 km (length). flows mostly through somawarpete (north east madikeri hills falling east)
2 Hemavathy 5,410 Ballarayana Durga(Chickamagalur), 1,219 metres, 245 km
3 Kabini 7,040 Western ghats in Kerala, 2,140 metres, 230 km. (Tributaries of Taraka,Hebballa, Nugu, Gundal Flows through: Karnataka, Kerala & TamilNadu)
4 Suvarnavathy 1,787 Nasrur ghat Range (Chamarajanagara), Length 88 km. Karnataka & Tamil Nadu
5 Lakshmanathirtha 1,690 Western ghats (Kodagu), 1,950 metres, 131 km. Ramathirtha Karnataka
6 Shimsha 8,469 Tumkur district, 914 meters, 221 km. Veeravaishnavi, kanihalla, chickkhole, Hebbahalla, Mullahalla & Kanva Karnataka
7 Arkavathy 4351 Nandidurga (Chickaballapura) 1,480 meters 161 km Kumaudavathy, Manihalla & kuttehole, Vrishabhava-thy Karnataka & Tamil Nadu

bold indicates 'upstream' under mysore.

map of cauvery basin.
Image
overlap with
Image

based on this i think it is a stretch to madras presidency owned both the upstream and downstream and mysore was the pesky little kingdom in between.
Last edited by shaardula on 07 Dec 2011 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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