South India River Water Issues/Disputes

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chandrasekaran
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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby chandrasekaran » 20 Dec 2011 17:28

Came across a link in you tube from PWD engineers - TN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7uJ1nhXZ_A&feature=share

Per this video, the site chosen by GoK (where surveys etc have been done)
is at a lower elevation, so that the existing mechanism to get water to the TN side
becomes useless with the new Dam - rather at the new location, as avg.
water levels need to be considerably higher - starting at the 36th minute of the video
Can someone that's more knowledgeable about GoK stand (Dileep ??), give their
update on this ?

The language is Tamil, but there's a graphic that illustrates this issue clearly. So
should be able to follow this part.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby vina » 21 Dec 2011 09:43

It is really really sad that this Mullaiperiyar dam has come to this pass. What should have been restricted solely to the sanitized hallways of courts and tribunals and technical committees was turned into a mass mobilization wedge issue .

I would blame that solely on the Kerala politicos. Once they did that , they have to take the blame for it and cant blame "hooligans/anti socials" for taking over (errr. non state actors like we know who claiming that they have no control) and bringing the situation to open confrontation. Having stoked the fire, they are going to get singed , maybe even burned in it. Shame.

They played with fire on this for incredibly short sighted reasons. If Chidambaram was right about what he thought the reasons were, it is simply pathetic. The matter is sub judice and rather than waiting for a judicial verdict, they went for street level agit prop and hate mongering.

The commies and the Kangress and the church parties didn't realize is that what is "politics as usual" within Kerala doesn't work when you try to do that with interstate issues.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby vina » 21 Dec 2011 09:55

chandrasekaran wrote:Per this video, the site chosen by GoK (where surveys etc have been done)
is at a lower elevation, so that the existing mechanism to get water to the TN side
becomes useless with the new Dam - .


I had already written about it. You will need a new tunnel in any case, whether you keep the existing dam or build a new one. The best idea would be to build the new tunnel, keep the existing dam with water level below 60 ft or something , just enough for the lake to exist at Thekkady and store the water in TN and STOP using Kerala as the "overhead tank". Problem solved once and for all in perpetuity. No safety problem (400% guaranteed) and and TN gets to keep the water (500% of the time).

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2011 11:13

Now the secular crowd in TN is taking Mullaperiyar dam issue to new heights of ridiculousness.


Massive rally on X-Mas day at Marina

In a statement here, Thirumurugan Gandhi of May 17 Movement expressed the fear that the Mullaiperiyar dam might go down the way the Babri Masjid went as the latest discourse in the national media was highly partial to Kerala.


Waah! Kyaa Comparision!!

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2011 16:51

20 minutes to run for your life, if Mullaperiyar dam bursts: Expert


If - and it is an admittedly big 'if' - an earthquake, measuring 6 on the Richter scale, rocks Idukki district and the 116-year-old gravity dam in Mullaperiyar bursts, with water level at 136 feet, the resultant flood would submerge 50 sq kms of land downstream. The thundering water would flow at a height of 36 feet, submerging buildings, uprooting trees and leaving a trail of destruction.


Over what width along the river? what will happen to idukki dam?

Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Theo_Fidel » 21 Dec 2011 21:37

Lets keep some perspective here. Geologically these are extremely old hills. Most the entire western Ghats are a geological consequence of crustal rebound as Madagascar separated from the Indian West coast 45 Million years ago. Though there is a subduction zone starting off down south of Lanka it is very early days and it will be 20 million years before it becomes active like the Indonesian subduction zone.

The highest tremor ever recorded in this area over 200 years is a 3.8. Even Geologically there is no evidence for active ongoing faulting. Keep in mind that the earthquake scale is logarithmic. so a 6.0 is actually releasing about 1000 times more energy than a 3.8. So a 1000 times more severe event is being postulated over and above millions of years of Geological evidence.

Of course Latur will immediately be brought up. First Latur did not happen at the Western Ghats. It was deep interior Deccan plateau quake. There had always been geological evidence for earthquake activity in the area. In fact many of the dams in the area avoided the main fault line and hence no dams failed. Though a Dam in the area was blamed, it could at best have hastened an inevitable shock. In fact by prematurely triggering the shock it could be said that the dam reduced the full power of the delayed shock.

Coming back to Idukki, none of the structures in this area are designed to handle a shallow 6.0+ type Earthquake. Such an earthquake will result in ~ 2.0 m of movement. Entire hills will collapse, most housing will be gone, none of the dams in the area are designed to handle such shocks, including I might add Idukki itself. The soil will liquefy and entire cities will be swallowed up. If a 6.0 Earthquake is feared people should mobilize right now to completely overhaul the entire infrastructure. Every house should be seismically retrofitted, every bridge should be torn down and rebuilt to new earthquake category, every skyscraper should be retrofitted if possible or condemned if necessary. If a landslide hit the ocean or happened underwater, a Tsunami would most likely result. The people should prepare immediately with Tsunami warning systems and proper evacuation routes and shelters. The people of Kerala have an enormous amount of work to do to prepare for a 6.0 type earthquake. State of Kerala should immediately reclassify itself from Category 2/3 to most important Category 5!! This is vital. Parts of TN too need to re-categorize. They should start right now.

The death rate otherwise would be truly monumental and run into the millions. Due to population density, it would easily cause the single most fatalities ever on the planet.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2011 00:18

All these are the cause of inferior leadership and stupid mango people as majority controlling superior intelligent well ordained minority citizens of India. The majority of Indians are Inferior and infected mangoes... and can go viral on anything for the sake of being mangoes.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 22 Dec 2011 00:30

The current Kochi harbor is thought to have opened up as recently as 500 or so years ago. Prior to that the major port on the coast was more north by 40km by the mouth of the Periyar river, going back all the way to historical times. So there are hidden or not so scrutinized evidence as yet, for recent geological activity in the area.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 22 Dec 2011 00:41

vina wrote:I would blame that solely on the Kerala politicos. Once they did that , they have to take the blame for it and cant blame "hooligans/anti socials" for taking over (errr. non state actors like we know who claiming that they have no control) and bringing the situation to open confrontation. Having stoked the fire, they are going to get singed , maybe even burned in it. Shame.

For a senior mullah who has been harping about law and order and legality as the only recourse, isn't it a bit too much to betray ones deep sympathies with agit-prop techniques being selectively approved. :twisted: You lost credibility right there with those statements.
They played with fire on this for incredibly short sighted reasons. If Chidambaram was right about what he thought the reasons were, it is simply pathetic. The matter is sub judice and rather than waiting for a judicial verdict, they went for street level agit prop and hate mongering.
What is the credible evidence about this new allegation from your side ? So a Anna Hazare type grass roots is also agit prop and hate mongering perhaps. Gandhi's Quit India Movement must have been the worst kind of hate mongering towards the ruling classes of the day. :rotfl:
The commies and the Kangress and the church parties didn't realize is that what is "politics as usual" within Kerala doesn't work when you try to do that with interstate issues.
I am lost here, the politics as usual you describe does not work in KL but is quite typical of TN. :mrgreen:

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 22 Dec 2011 00:57

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 175487.cms
More "real" evidence for singe and burn techniques advocated by the so called law-abiding aggrieved party to this dispute.

Do not have to dig up much to find the law abiders and their peaceful movements.
MDMK leader Vaiko was arrested near Theni, 500 km west of Chennai, on Wednesday when he was going to take part in a protest against the Kerala government for its stand on the Mullaperiyar dam issue.

Vaiko was arrested along with two others including Tamilar Desia Iyakkam leader Pala
Nedumaran for defying prohibitory orders.

Prohibitory orders are in force due to the tense situation in the wake of the

row between Tamil Nadu and Kerala on the 116-year-old dam. The police said they requested Vaiko not to organise meetings and also informed him about the prohibitory orders.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Chennai/Tamil-leader-Vaiko-arrested/Article1-785444.aspx

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 22 Dec 2011 01:17

Protective dam a possible solution to Mullaperiyar row
KOCHI: The Kerala Assembly Petitions Committee has asked the state government to accelerate construction of a `protective dam' downstream of Mullaperiyar. The new dam can be constructed without demolishing the existing dam, and this would go a long way to allay Tamil Nadu's fears about a new dam, the committee's chairman Thomas Unniyadan, MLA, told TOI after visiting Mullaperiyar dam.

He said the water level in Mullaperiyar dam could be lowered to 120 feet by permitting Tamil Nadu to drill another tunnel from the reservoir to take water for irrigation in that state. He also said that the committee wanted the Kerala government to take more effective measures to complete the dam-break analysis and to put in place a viable disaster management programme in the event of a dam burst.

Unniyadan said the Petitions Committee received a warm welcome from the Tamil Nadu officials who man the dam. ``We could visit all areas of the dam including the gallery,'' he said. Earlier the Assembly Subject Committee was denied permission to the gallery of the dam.

Emphasising the dam's weak condition, he said the committee has requested the Supreme Court-appointed Empowered Committee (EC) to conduct detailed scientific studies before submitting its report. ``EC is planning to conduct `core testing' only at one spot on the dam. We want it to be conducted at least at nine points along the 1,200 feet long dam. The committee has found leaks in 34 blocks of the dam. We appeal to the EC to take into account of the anxieties of Kerala and not to submit its report in haste without conducting proper studies,'' Unniyadan said.
The only people doing sensible agit-prop seems to be on one side of the dispute so far ! :(( :(( What a shame, to think right even at the MLA level. I am glad that KL politicos don't do politics the usual 'fan club' cluster mob way.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby vina » 22 Dec 2011 09:42

Theo_Fidel wrote:Coming back to Idukki, none of the structures in this area are designed to handle a shallow 6.0+ type Earthquake. Such an earthquake will result in ~ 2.0 m of movement. Entire hills will collapse, most housing will be gone, none of the dams in the area are designed to handle such shocks, including I might add Idukki itself.


Indeed, I had pointed out that to my folks at Kalamasery, the danger is NOT Mullaperiyar , but Idukki ! The unquestioning assumption here is that in a category 6 earthquake, Mullaperiyar will fail (it might well will, I dont know), but Idukki wont! Now what was the level of seismic activity that Idukki was designed for :lol: :lol: ? The IIT Roorkee folks put out the "Dam will fail in a 6 intensity quake" I wonder what will he answer if he is called up as a witness and the other side asks him during cross examination, what is the design level of Idukki dam and what will happen in a level 6 quake ? And if so , why was Idukki, just 50 km away designed for lower levels that 6 ? Just such simple lay man questions will bring the Kerala case down in the court like a pack of cards. Hence all this drama baazi and theaterics.

When I pointed out that it was the Idukki dam that was the problem not Mullaperiyar, Dileep told us that they will get the Kerala politicos to fix it or they wont be allowed to move etc! I do hope that the folks in Kerala down river of Idukki start campaigning on an analysis on how Idukki will hold up to scale 6 quakes. And oh, Bade Mian should do so as well!

Quite amazing , unless someone can say that a case will never occur at spot A, but will occur precisely at a spot B that is 50km away. Let some one make that case and I will show you the quintessential Uber/Ata Paki in flesh and blood.

State of Kerala should immediately reclassify itself from Category 2/3 to most important Category 5!! This is vital.

Yeah right. Pigs will fly first in Kerala before you can start demanding any sort of logical consistency like that.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby vina » 22 Dec 2011 10:04

Bade wrote: For a senior mullah who has been harping about law and order and legality as the only recourse, isn't it a bit too much to betray ones deep sympathies with agit-prop techniques being selectively approved. :twisted: You lost credibility right there with those statements.


Arre Bade Mian! I do not for a moment condone the Vaiko style antics. But when it was the Kerala politicos who cast the first stone here and made it into an issue for mobilization , consequences be damned, you set off exactly a similar dynamic across the border as well. So there you are. Kerala politicos started it knowing fully well which way it is going to turn , but did it regardless. So they get the blame.

So a Anna Hazare type grass roots is also agit prop and hate mongering perhaps.


As far as I can see, none of the Anna Hazare folks indulged in stoning buses, closure of pilgrimage routes and most important of all, disrupted normal economic life and inter people relations by mobilizing it as a "hate" issue the effects of which so far seems to be largely shooting Kerala's feet by Kerala itself.They had a clean open agenda, here Kerala's agenda seems to be anything BUT safety! One is clean, the other is all subterfuge.

Al-Hundi is hollering every day for the past few weeks about how the weekly spice auctions have stopped for the past couple of weeks, 100 tons of cardomom has piled up, none of the traders and processors (I believe the processing is done mainly in TN side because of the dry weather) are showing up and the farmers, laborers and estate owners are sitting on deep losses that could shoot up if this idiocy isn't put to rest! Frantic "appeals" from the Spice Board folks to come and participate and all that going on. Oh well ,Congratulations.

And oh, if the blockade goes on for any length of time, get ready for shortages of essentials like milk, meat, veggies, food and other basics and folks like Sachin etc wont be driving into Kerala anytime soon, nor will anyone be driving out of anyone and god forbid if trains are stopped as well. All this for what, because the Kangress, Mani and Commies are jockeying around to show whose schlong is more "Malayali" than the other? Ridiculous.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby jimmy_moh » 22 Dec 2011 13:34

one of my neighbour who is running a hotel in theni.... was forced to close the hotel.. and now he is back in my place.. hope things get better soon..

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 22 Dec 2011 20:22

Vina-mullah, regarding Idukki yes, there has been talk within about its weaknesses too, and you should perhaps refer to the report on dam safety, which includes all dams including "Idukki". I know you can churn out reams of garbage in support of your thesis that the TN govt is the saint here in this dispute but there is no evidence on the ground to support that claim. You just need to look outside of dark places for real information.

Theo, As for preparedness just check out the CESS annual reports on their website, it is quite comprehensive for any research institution that I have seen anything from in India (including central govt prestigious ones). I am quite impressed what a state govt aided institute has done to my surprise, yes by assorted commies and leftists onlee as Vina-mullah constantly claims. :mrgreen: Puts to shame all those haloed Bengaluru and Chennai based institutes for sure.

http://cess.res.in/

http://cess.res.in/wp-content/themes/ce ... _08-09.PDF

Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Theo_Fidel » 23 Dec 2011 00:38

Bade,

1 page on Earthquakes and 1 page on Tsunami modeling does not make for preparation and evacuation. What you are showing me is bureaucratese. I repeat if a 6.0 strikes Kerala the catastrophe would be unimaginable. State should mobilize on a war footing right now.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 23 Dec 2011 01:11

Theo, show me the central govt run IMD the nodal agency's plan for evacuation for all high seismic zone areas. Where are NRSA, Hydbad's collection of imagery and data needed for disaster management on a publicly accessible server to all in India.

But why harp on a 6.0 only, when all ranges between 4.0 and 6.0 are possible (with higher probability) if a 6.0 is also probable with a lower frequency over the years.

And yes, we had a 5.8 or so in the DC metro area (once in a hundred year event) and it shook us badly though almost all of the high rises still stood and people remained safe. Epicenter was far away at 60+ miles or so. I do not think there are any high rises in Idukki area, and Ernakulam is not along that particular fault line. No one knows perhaps if there are other undetermined fault lines in the city. Even with all the mapping they have not figured out all the fault lines criss-crossing Los Angeles.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 23 Dec 2011 01:23

Looks like IMD has improved their web in recent times, with an updated seismicity map. Wide zone classification map is gone, as it conveys less meaning.

http://www.imd.gov.in/section/seismo/st ... ty_map.jpg

Ministry of Earth sciences has a Seismic micro-zone map manual which I am not able to download.

Theo_Fidel

Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Theo_Fidel » 23 Dec 2011 02:21

Bade,

There is a difference between 6.0 in massaland and 6.0 in Kerala. Kerala is completely unprepared. The codes have required building to 6.0 on entire US east coast for a long time now. Also the epicenter was in relatively unpopulated area. It was a good 140 km from DC so almost the distance to Madurai and Idukki as the crow flies. If there were 20 million people living on top of a 6.0 within 40 km in Kerala. And are completely unprepared. The effect is devastating esp. in hilly area. Areas where a major earthquake has not occured and construction is lax.

The NZ Christchurch earthquake was a 6.2 but very shallow. The devastation was quite staggering. Kerala should declare itself high hazard and prepare right now if a 6.0 type earthquake is feared.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 23 Dec 2011 02:34

From the IMD link,
10. Seismic Zoning of India

Bureau of Indian Standards [IS-1893 – part – 1: 2002], based on various scientific inputs from a number of agencies including earthquake data supplied by IMD, has grouped the country into four seismic zones viz., Zone-II, -III, -IV and -V. Of these, zone V is rated as the most seismically active region, while zone II is the least. The Modified Mercalli (MM) intensity, which measures the impact of the earthquakes on the surface of the earth, broadly associated with various zones is as follows:



Seismic Zone Intensity on MM scale

II (Low intensity zone) VI (or less)

III (Moderate intensity zone) VII

IV (Severe intensity zone) VIII

V (Very severe intensity zone) IX (and above)


and I believe the whole state is classified as zone III. corresponding to a MM scale greater than 6. So no need to reclassify anything as vina mullah opined. All structures built legally (with proper oversight) have to withstand this amount of shaking.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 23 Dec 2011 02:43

Any structures built by private parties, which in the event of a major quake in a metro area, causes widespread loss of life and property is solely the responsibility of the private entity. It is like my insurance for the property which should cover for the structure and some compensation for medical expenses. I cannot expect the govt to replace the structure or compensate for loss of lives of anyone living in it.

But a public structure like a dam is another matter, when it causes widespread damage. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

A very nice write on dam failure.

http://quake.abag.ca.gov/dam-failure/
During the 1971 San Fernando earthquake shaking caused a major slide of the top thirty feet of the Lower San Fernando Dam. The dam was very close to completely failing. Eighty thousand people living downstream of the dam were immediately ordered to evacuate. At the time, there were no dam failure inundation maps available showing the areas which would be affected by a dam failure, and there were no planned evacuation procedures to follow.
How does dam evacuation planning take place?

As a result of the near failure of the Lower San Fernando Valley Dam, the Dam Safety Act was passed into law. This new law required dam owners to create maps showing areas that would be flooded if the dam failed. The State approved the maps and distributed them to local governments, who in turn adopt emergency procedures for the evacuation and control of areas in the event of a dam failure. The law required that each map be produced only once, without any requirements for updating. Furthermore, the scenario used to create the maps constrained the results to only a worst case situation that does not fit the historical evidence of how and why dams fail. :eek: :eek: {How can they do that as per TN logic. You need to have all and sundry put to the same test before you can ask that.}

The maps were developed using engineering hydrology principals and represent the best estimate of where the water would flow if the dam completely failed with a full reservoir. The inundation pathway is based on completely emptying the reservoir and does not include run-off from storms. Had the maps have been developed more recently, different assumptions and map-making methods would have been used. In addition, dam inundation maps do not always indicate the depth of inundation and may represent only an inch of water over some inundation areas. In 1995, ABAG aggregated these maps into a single regional map.

Development downstream of dams, and upgrades to older dams have altered the inundation area of a dam, but the law does not require dam owners to update these maps and no new information is available on inundation areas. These maps still provide the best available estimate of the general location and extent of dam failure inundation areas. More detailed maps and dam failure hazard information may be available from the individual dam owner.
See dam safety act was passed in the state following this potential threat, but when KL does the same it is called politicking and hate mongering by some. :P
What is the likelihood of dam failure?

No quantitative probability information exists for the Bay Area dam failure hazard, in part because when a dam in known to have a failure potential, the water level is reduced to allow for partial collapse without loss of water as required by the State Division of Safety of Dams and by safety protocols established by dam owners. For example, the SF PUC is currently operating Calaveras Reservoir at less than 30% of capacity to avoid a catastrophic release of water. Thus, the probability of failure resulting in damage is approaching zero.
Yes sir and California must be freaking paranoid to be doing that, no. Why not increase the water level and test first. :rotfl:

And I saw the first steps in that CESS report on Periyar basin maps and morphology and you still think it is all bureaucratese ?

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 23 Dec 2011 15:55

chandrasekaran wrote:Came across a link in you tube from PWD engineers - TN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7uJ1nhXZ_A&feature=share

Per this video, the site chosen by GoK (where surveys etc have been done)
is at a lower elevation, so that the existing mechanism to get water to the TN side
becomes useless with the new Dam - rather at the new location, as avg.
water levels need to be considerably higher - starting at the 36th minute of the video
Can someone that's more knowledgeable about GoK stand (Dileep ??), give their
update on this ?

The language is Tamil, but there's a graphic that illustrates this issue clearly. So
should be able to follow this part.


Well, it maybe a design made by the TNPWD themselves, because GOK hasn't released any drawings yet. The numbers we see from the newspapers is anywhere between 180-190ft.

Even otherwise, it is possible to build another water takeout point that is 50ft lower in elevation. If you can build another dam, can't you build another tunnel? Look at the geography. It is no big deal at all to build another canal and tunnel system.

The bottom line is, GoK promises to give water at the same quantity as currently being delivered. I don't think the engineers who design the new dam are stupid to overlook this point, and I don't think they can hide this fact when the design is eventually frozen and published.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 23 Dec 2011 16:11

vina wrote:It is really really sad that this Mullaiperiyar dam has come to this pass. What should have been restricted solely to the sanitized hallways of courts and tribunals and technical committees was turned into a mass mobilization wedge issue .

I would blame that solely on the Kerala politicos. Once they did that , they have to take the blame for it and cant blame "hooligans/anti socials" for taking over (errr. non state actors like we know who claiming that they have no control) and bringing the situation to open confrontation. Having stoked the fire, they are going to get singed , maybe even burned in it. Shame.

Too bad you don't read the SDRE news, vina. Of course, you won't get time for that after analyzing all those international finance news.

The politicos were in fact dragged into the struggle, after the social networks raged on the problem for a few weeks. They found that they MUST do something, otherwise they would get the broom and dung water treatment. Right now, they have done everything to back-pedal the struggle, and it is, in fact, in typical Kerala fashion, dying down.

They played with fire on this for incredibly short sighted reasons. If Chidambaram was right about what he thought the reasons were, it is simply pathetic. The matter is sub judice and rather than waiting for a judicial verdict, they went for street level agit prop and hate mongering.

Show me ONE hate mongering statement by a Kerala politician please. We will talk after that.

No. None of the politicians did any hate mongering. It was TN politicians like Vaikol who did. It was TN people who attacked Keralites and Keralite owned establishments based on false or exaggerated news.

The commies and the Kangress and the church parties didn't realize is that what is "politics as usual" within Kerala doesn't work when you try to do that with interstate issues.

Absolutely. They should have known that TN have the license to respond emotionally and take it out on poor Keralites at places like Chennai who run a juice shop to make ends meet. Yes, they should have recognized that TN is different from Kerala. Their strategy and tactics are different. Rules of engagement are different. Even the concept of truth and falsehood are different.

Yes, they should have known all that before jumping in.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 23 Dec 2011 16:13

Aditya_V wrote:20 minutes to run for your life, if Mullaperiyar dam bursts: Expert


If - and it is an admittedly big 'if' - an earthquake, measuring 6 on the Richter scale, rocks Idukki district and the 116-year-old gravity dam in Mullaperiyar bursts, with water level at 136 feet, the resultant flood would submerge 50 sq kms of land downstream. The thundering water would flow at a height of 36 feet, submerging buildings, uprooting trees and leaving a trail of destruction.


Over what width along the river? what will happen to idukki dam?


Looking at the terrain, it is quite possible to have a flood height of 36ft in the region between MP and Idukki lake. In fact, I thought it was more like 50ft.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 23 Dec 2011 16:23

vina wrote:As far as I can see, none of the Anna Hazare folks indulged in stoning buses, closure of pilgrimage routes and most important of all, disrupted normal economic life and inter people relations by mobilizing it as a "hate" issue the effects of which so far seems to be largely shooting Kerala's feet by Kerala itself.They had a clean open agenda, here Kerala's agenda seems to be anything BUT safety! One is clean, the other is all subterfuge.

Kerala did ONE DAY standard hartal. The rest of the stoning buses, closure of pilgrimage routes and most important of all, disrupted normal economic life and inter people relations by mobilizing it as a "hate" issue the effects was, and continuing to be by TN.

It should be pretty hard for you to shut down your fantastic faculties of analysis and come up with these arguments. OR, maybe it is GiGo. Garbage-in-Garbage-Out.

No Sir, Kerala doesn't run any hate campaign. You (and most of TN as we see) are desperately trying to make it look so (and failing, just like you did here)

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 23 Dec 2011 16:26

By the way, my brother just escaped Vikol's non-hate-mongering agitation at Walayar.

See, my mom passed away Tuesday evening, and he had to rush down. We were all concerned about the "block all routes to those bloody malayalathans" agitation by vaikol, and advised him to make it quick. Even though he will be in a KA reg car. He passed Walayar at 6:00am, just before MDMK "peaceful protestors" showed up at Walayar. As they took a break at the KTDC, they realized that theirs was pretty much the last of the vehicles that came through.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby vina » 24 Dec 2011 05:51

See, my mom passed away Tuesday evening

Oh. I am so sorry to hear that. My condolences.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby SaiK » 24 Dec 2011 08:07

May be something like if a city does not witness organized crime or hartals or strikes, people could claim additional 10% income tax/sales deductions. This would enhance participatory democracy for up-keeping of public property. But then if people hardly file and pay taxes, this a moot point.

With corruption and garbage politics taking higher priority, decent democracy setup is impossible. Destruction of public property violence against humanity should be highest crime and put to death or shot at sight. Such citizens are unworthy of living anyways.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Dec 2011 13:39

Some news updates from Chidu

Dam issue: 20 cases booked

Shunning Christmas festivities, residents observe fast in Vallakkadavu

Mullaperiyar inspection disappointing, says Kerala

Mr. Nair said Mr. Thatte's stand, read with the recent statement of Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram, raised doubts whether the report of the EC would be in Kerala's favour. The difference of opinion between Kerala officials and Mr. Thatte began over the issue of the sonic test conducted at the dam. Kerala argued that sonic testing was conducted only in one block, while engineers from Tamil Nadu said it was done in three blocks. Mr. Thatte chose to accept the Tamil Nadu claim, Mr. Nair said.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 26 Dec 2011 17:37

Kerala had objected to the inclusion of Thatte, because he had been overtly hostile to KL for a long long time. He was the guy who constantly shouted down Parameswaran Nair in the previous joint committee.

I would have expected at least the decency from him to avoid discussing the "action to be taken to raise the level" lecture. It was absolutely inappropriate.

Reminds me of a quote from Dharmaraja. "Some courtiers might have made some report to your majesty out of ignorance, or to show a good face. Many of them will stick to their words even after being proven wrong, just being afraid of going back on their POV".

I think that is what happened to Thatte. He made a recommendation for "strengthening" of the dam earlier, and he thinks it is his prestige being at stake if he agree that the dam is indeed weak. But he should have shown the tact not to let it show.

So, here it goes, folks!! The EC report is already known, and the SC verdict is already out. I should be fine with all the preparations I did.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby SaiK » 26 Dec 2011 19:12

If chidambaram appan can influence for TN, I am given to think that anthony acchan can do the same for KL. I see value in strengthening the dam that is beneficial to both TN and KL.

People should grow and mature into logical reasoning than dumb politics. Future is bleak for many considering such neuron use.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 27 Dec 2011 08:12

SaiK wrote:If chidambaram appan can influence for TN, I am given to think that anthony acchan can do the same for KL.

That is the problem you see. Chidambaram is a TN minister in central cabinet. Anthony, Ravi and the others are central cabinet ministers who happen to be from KL.


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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Sachin » 27 Dec 2011 18:29

vina wrote:And oh, if the blockade goes on for any length of time, get ready for shortages of essentials like milk, meat, veggies, food and other basics

This is a point, which I think Keralites should learn. The state cannot be a "consumer state" for ever. Socialism, parippuvada-ism etc. have made sure that Kerala buys every thing from outside. Infact even the rice we eat. If these do not reach the borders for some reason, the state would go for a six. The only solace is that there would also be a few enterpreneurs who will lose money because their products etc. dont reach the end customers. I dont think TN farmers also would like to see plaintains, eggs, poultry all sitting idle because it cannot move across the borders.

folks like Sachin etc wont be driving into Kerala anytime soon, nor will anyone be driving out of anyone and god forbid if trains are stopped as well.

Folks like Sachin have an alternate route, albeit a bit longer ;). We can go via the Karnataka->Kerala border at Muthanga or Tholpetty. Only problem is the longer distance, and night travel which is banned. Infact we took this route to avoid Vaikol* and his chums at Walayar.


* Can this word be added to the BR dictionary. The word means "hay" in Malayalam ;).

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby RamaY » 27 Dec 2011 22:49

Dileep wrote:
SaiK wrote:If chidambaram appan can influence for TN, I am given to think that anthony acchan can do the same for KL.

That is the problem you see. Chidambaram is a TN minister in central cabinet. Anthony, Ravi and the others are central cabinet ministers who happen to be from KL.



Point to be noted.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 03:55

Yes, and P Chidambaram carries more negative outlooks than AK Anthony. BTW, I think both have equal powers but PC may take higher and lower hand dealings, whereas AKA may be more gentle and honest. On paper, and dress code, they are peachy and keen and that is what public will carry forward.

Back to dam! I sincerely hope, they fix the structural issues facing the dam with a real quick decision. AK Anthony should influence for KL on equal terms.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 28 Dec 2011 12:21

The truth is, TN needs us consumers much more than we need them!!

We can go without vegetables or chicken from TN for weeks. We already get stuff from KA and AP. But the TN farmer will lose his crop if he doesn't sell it on time.

Reminds me of a namboothiri joke. NAmboothiri was trying to alight from a train, but people were pushing in to board, so he had trouble.

നമ്പൂതിരി: ഒന്നു മാറിത്തര്വാ! നോം അങ്ങോട്ടിറങ്ങീക്കോട്ടേ.. (please stand back. Let me alight)
യാത്രക്കാര്‍: തിരുമേനി മാറിത്തര്യാ.. ഞങ്ങള്‍ കയറട്ടേ.. (YOU stand back. Let US board)
നമ്പൂതിരി: നിങ്ങള്‍ക്ക് കയറല് ഇനി വരണ വണ്ടീലാവാം. നോന് ഇറങ്ങല് ഇതീന്നന്നെ വേണം. (You could board the NEXT train, but I GOT TO alight from THIS ONE)

We could buy vegetables and chicken from elsewhere, but you got to sell them to someone!!

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Bade » 28 Dec 2011 20:19

Some market pundits had predicted vegetable prices to go sky high with hartals at the border posts, but 'market forces' should ensure that TN will be forced to sell the soon to be rotten excess stock at bottom prices, no ? :-)

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 22:26

so, which was the shoe strike (nike/rebok?) that the workers had secret agreement to make only the left shoe alone for a million copy. the strike ended successfully, as the workers argued that they never said right shoe will not be made.. except they had decided to do million left shoe first, then do a million right shoe next. they have a separate marketing plan.

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Re: South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Postby Dileep » 29 Dec 2011 08:35

Another story (blame it on my swargiya pitashri for these stories)

There was a landlord who had filariasis, which made his legs bloat up to the size of elephant's legs. His farm hand was scared of the leg, because, as he thought "If the lord gives one kick with that giant leg, I am finished". So, the farm hand used to do everything diligently and show a lot of reverence. The lord too believed this, and thought his leg to be a potent weapon. He looked for an opportunity to test the weapon, and started making that fact clear to the farm hand often, making him ever so afraid.

One day, the poor guy was so tired, he decided to take a break on the banks of the paddy field. The lord came and saw this. He came down and planted a big kick upon the poor chap. But the bloated mass did not make much impact.

The guy started laughing out loud "ഇപ്പ തമ്പ്രാന്റെ കൊതീം മാറി, ഏന്റെ പേടീം മാറി”. (Now, the lord got his wish, and my fear is gone too)

That is what happened with the TN blackmail of the "malayalathans' starving!!


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