Indian Education System

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SBajwa
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby SBajwa » 02 Jul 2015 01:24

Teachers and Parents should be in charge of "Realizing the potential of their students and children respectively" This does not mean that "I want my kid to be a doctor so you can beat him up at your will to make him/her a doctor"

All children are special
Some talkative and some quiet (future Politicians/journalists/etc and philosophers/artists/etc)
Some builders and some destroyers (future Engineers and Quality assurance)
Some good in math and others in reading/writing

and so forth!
also it is not all black and white., some kids are mix and match of everything else! so teacher should be in charge of realizing it.

I remember my teacher in 5th grade Math at Chandigarh (35-Model) in 1976-77 telling me that I am never going to learn math as I am a Jat and that too a Sikh. BTW. I majored in Math and Computer Science. I have seen the village teachers segregating the children based on their household (Rich Vs. Poor Vs. Caste). I hope that all that is a thing of past.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Shreeman » 02 Jul 2015 05:47

vayu tuvan wrote:
Shreeman wrote:The private and public models are mutually exclusive. ...
The coaching culture is the death of education in India.

Shreeman ji: When I say "private" i am not limiting it to coaching instis only. I am certainly not including for-profit academies. The discussion is more on the lines of, say DPS, or Doon School or Don Bosco vs. your run -of-the mill street corner govt. school or one which runs out of thatched huts (in rural areas).


vt,

These issues remain unresolved even in the land of great satan. Look at the common core curriculum or the voucher/charter school debacles. And the quality in what would be equivalent of the non-doon school variety. Especially in areas where segregation plays a role. May I say Baltimore?

For India, it is not amatter of "forget X, we can not even do basic Y", it is a matter of "forget X, we dont even want to learn basic Y". The resources to learn have bern around since I went to primary school with a wooden reed picked from the nearest dry shrub and a "takhtee" slate. I wonder if people recognize what this is anymore?

People sent kids to school because it was the only place you could get at least one meal. Even if it was just daliya. Eaten off of the same takhtee. Cooked by 5th grade students. And that is how I learnt, ate, and survived.

This "we wont eat a simple cake", we would like doon style vanilla flavor is a problem. I know of parents selling their soul (well, mortgaging your ancestral land is close) and the kids using that money on dubious tution centers, telling their parents all sorts of glorious things that will happen when they finish, and then realize they are unemployable. That is the reality of all private schools, the doon model included.

What prevents parents from complaining against the master jee who only comes to eat lunch, or agitating, for once, for something like education in a constructive fashion? Pay your own master-jee to actually teach in place of the sarkari. And who are these non performers? They are your neighbors. Who are these tution center operators? Also your neighbors.

The problem lies in valuing pieces of papers and percentages. This creates the IIPMs and AXACTs. Restore the valuation of actual knowledge. And thats only happenning if you remove the profit motive, the strong profit motive that comes with this tutiongiri.

Yes, that includes the Khan academy types. They pretend to "help" but all they are is the usual chaitable responsibility escape route for the likes of bank of america. Yes, that glorious leader in social responsibility. You want to take lessons from that? Actual education at high school age benefits enormously from peer learning. Something a school provides, and the rest of this pressure packed overnight bankrupting nonsense doesnt.

The promises of private education are just grapes out of reach for all but kings and queens. And I dare say the rich dont really want to learn anyway. And the rest of this charity model is figuratively those imaginary houses in haiti. That is why we have no moral fibre any more.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby RoyG » 02 Jul 2015 23:29

Shreeman wrote:The problem lies in valuing pieces of papers and percentages. This creates the IIPMs and AXACTs. Restore the valuation of actual knowledge. And thats only happenning if you remove the profit motive, the strong profit motive that comes with this tutiongiri.


YES. And you do that by reforming public school education. It's going to take more than complaints and agitation. It has to come from the highest level. If you do this, the numbers flocking to private schools will naturally come down. It's not about anti or pro. If the parents and children still feel that they aren't getting what they need, one shouldn't hold a gripe if they decide that private school is their best bet.

I know many rich kids who went to the same public school as I did. Of course, some went to private schools and they were pretty good as well. School choice is a good thing.

Shreeman wrote:Yes, that includes the Khan academy types. They pretend to "help" but all they are is the usual chaitable responsibility escape route for the likes of bank of america. Yes, that glorious leader in social responsibility. You want to take lessons from that? Actual education at high school age benefits enormously from peer learning. Something a school provides, and the rest of this pressure packed overnight bankrupting nonsense doesnt.


Seriously? :lol:

Khan Academy is a great learning tool and its accessible. Not sure what you're going on and on about. PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION is the issue. As long as you keep kids 7-8 hours a day in school learning how to memorize so they can get super duper marks on boards you will keep running in circles.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Jul 2015 01:13

+100. Good Post. BTW back in the day TNSB used to be quite chaotic as well. It can be done but needs some changes at society level as well….

deejay wrote:The average student and the ones who fall between one standard deviation of the bell curve, coming out of an education system full of government schools and private schools such as the one above, will do well to read / write a single page in any language. I have personally interviewed Maths (Hons) 73%, pass with distinction, exam cleared under Lalu Raj, a product of such an education system, to come to my conclusion (this interview can be a post on its own). I have met , interviewed others and I am convinced, our present education system is barely able to extend our reach of literacy. Education will come later. Let us first get everyone in to the system. There are still many who do not get to attend even such schools.

The focus must remain on extending reach to get everyone in the Indian School System, however flawed. The improvement in the delivery of education, better teachers will continue and IMO, there will always be islands of excellence surrounded by seas of mediocrity. Coaching Classes are a reflection of Parental aspiration to give their kids a better chance and of course a reflection of what a teacher earns by just teaching at school. Good people get good salaries, throw peanuts and the monkeys surround you. There are just too many students graduating and not enough vacancies in the sought after fields.

Our schools have to be affordable and good - two things only government can do. If all State Boards are like the Tamil Nadu State board and stupidities like Lalu Raj do not happen, surely Govt schools which have the reach and numbers will best address the problem. Now, who will guarantee this? How do we reach a point where demand = supply and we start working from adequate teachers to better teachers, from adequate facilities to better facilities, etc?
Just my two paise worth

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Shreeman » 03 Jul 2015 05:53

RoyG wrote:
Shreeman wrote:The problem lies in valuing pieces of papers and percentages. This creates the IIPMs and AXACTs. Restore the valuation of actual knowledge. And thats only happenning if you remove the profit motive, the strong profit motive that comes with this tutiongiri.


YES. And you do that by reforming public school education. It's going to take more than complaints and agitation. It has to come from the highest level. If you do this, the numbers flocking to private schools will naturally come down. It's not about anti or pro. If the parents and children still feel that they aren't getting what they need, one shouldn't hold a gripe if they decide that private school is their best bet.

I know many rich kids who went to the same public school as I did. Of course, some went to private schools and they were pretty good as well. School choice is a good thing.

Shreeman wrote:Yes, that includes the Khan academy types. They pretend to "help" but all they are is the usual chaitable responsibility escape route for the likes of bank of america. Yes, that glorious leader in social responsibility. You want to take lessons from that? Actual education at high school age benefits enormously from peer learning. Something a school provides, and the rest of this pressure packed overnight bankrupting nonsense doesnt.


Seriously? :lol:

Khan Academy is a great learning tool and its accessible. Not sure what you're going on and on about. PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION is the issue. As long as you keep kids 7-8 hours a day in school learning how to memorize so they can get super duper marks on boards you will keep running in circles.


Roy,

Yes, no. Nothing has to come from the top. They are your kids. Parents want a say in their marriages. Education, not so much. If you are going to depend *solely* upon politicians to educate kids, you will be disappointed.

Yes, seriously. Look up Khan academy's sponsors. Check some of their ads. Compare with goals and achievements of the red cross types in haiti. There is only one common denominator: money. Check corporate responsibility sponsored "education" on anything from banking, and thrift. Still think the same? Look around a little about where khan/academy has been expanding, and what uses are really funding its bread and butter.

Hype is great. But not a good substitution for real learning. *Everything* is a real resource if used as the intended supplement that it can be.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby gakakkad » 03 Jul 2015 07:47

Yes, that includes the Khan academy types. They pretend to "help" but all they are is the usual chaitable responsibility escape route for the likes of bank of america. Yes, that glorious leader in social responsibility. You want to take lessons from that? Actual education at high school age benefits enormously from peer learning. Something a school provides, and the rest of this pressure packed overnight bankrupting nonsense doesnt.

...........

Yes, seriously. Look up Khan academy's sponsors. Check some of their ads. Compare with goals and achievements of the red cross types in haiti. There is only one common denominator: money. Check corporate responsibility sponsored "education" on anything from banking, and thrift. Still think the same? Look around a little about where khan/academy has been expanding, and what uses are really funding its bread and butter.


Lets not get into the financial aspects of Khan academy... True Yuri Milner and other VCs are in it.. True it has got a multi-million dollar evaluation , without making a dime of money...

But look at it from a pedagogic perspective ...Even if it is an elaborate money laundering scheme , for evading tax in the name of charity etc , it is doing a good job teaching kids...

The videos are very well made .. And they promptly respond if you point out errors..If you look at the math/CS section , they are doing a good job clearing basic concepts , which trust me are pretty weak in kids all over the world. Including India ...

For math they have infinite practice problems ...

In India , being able to analyze graph of a function is a deficient skill....Many class 12th pass out won't know that Integral of a function is actually the area under the curve etc...

true there are potential pitfalls to this approach... for example when everything is spoon fed at the click of a mouse , people don't try figuring out concepts themselves....In class 11th when I learned calculus , I stumbled upon a book by russian author Terasov ..it was an old book (1982) .the book seller had if for 2 decades and no one bought it.I browsed through it and bought it... Mir publications...they had some classics in Math , Physics and Chem which are unrivaled by any Indian or American author...
The author had a unique approach and designed the book to get the learner to figure out concepts themselves...that created a unique understanding most people never get..

Pedagogic problem with the Indian approach is that solutions to problems are spoon fed , without often explaining them the overlying concept...for instance even though the aam class 12th baccha , won't completely understand what an integral means , he might be able to recite the solution of difficult integrals like integral of ( sqrt (Tan X) dx...

KA does spoon feed ...yet helps in developing a decent intuitive undertanding ....

the approach and method of delivery need to be replicated on a large scale in India...

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Jul 2015 08:22

mir was a godsend for engineers/aspirants

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby RoyG » 03 Jul 2015 08:30

Shreeman,

You aren't getting it. Politicians decide what the structure of schooling is, what exams to take for what position, the classes, the language, accreditation, salaries etc. There is only so much a parent can do. You must understand this point.

Who cares who the sponsors are. They are offering a good product and best of all, it is accessible with an internet connection. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple. Many people I know have found it useful.

I'm still having trouble understanding what you're trying to get at and why you continue to blame the symptom rather than the problem.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby csaurabh » 03 Jul 2015 08:52

Just in.. IIPM is going to shut down in October. Good riddance!

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Shreeman » 03 Jul 2015 09:41

Roy,

I wont be able to explain this to you, and its my limitation. Here are some parting observations. Politicians decide the countrys defense. They decide the rules that govern education. And by the same token, also the rules of marriage -- how many, what age, whether divorce is permitted, if dowry is allowed, and if/when you can burn the bride/groom. It is only in the last that you see grass root action -- marriage outside of caste/religion? Bam! No politicians needed.

Re. khan academy, as I noted before, it has limitations, inadequacies, and not so well meaning aspects. If you or yours found it useful, good. Accumulate knowledge any which way. But it is not now, and never will be a replacement for proper schooling.
cheers.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby csaurabh » 03 Jul 2015 12:07

Shreeman..

The real problem is that at the moment, for a vast majority of Indian school and college kids, the internet based online study method, whatever its deficiencies might be, is still better than the formal education. This is because the teachers don't know anything, or don't know how to teach, or don't know how their teaching is relevant to the real world ( at least one of these three and often more ).

Ironically, the best 'teaching' that goes on in India is probably in the coaching classes.

Edit: This was probably the case even before online courses. I learned more science from Y.A. Perelman's 'Physics for Entertainment' and the Discovery channel than I ever could have from school teachers ( This too in one of the 'best' schools ).
Last edited by csaurabh on 03 Jul 2015 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2015 12:15

i have been thinking of this. there is vast disparity in quality of teachers even within the same school and some schools have no good teachers at all. surely it cannot be raised to coaching class level where former iitians are teachers but perhaps have a intensive training course every summer for 2 months to train teachers in some central locations like teachers training colleges and univs and try both to raise their avg level and close the diffs in level.

second thing is there is lot of corruption and bribe taking in teacher appts in govts schools . thats got to stop. many deserving people who want jobs are pushed out by sifarishi types.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2015 12:24

I met a junior batchmate from college recently who has gone into post-graduation training venture after a stint as a product mgr in a mnc. he was saying 70% of indian graduates are unemployable and training them to be employable is a "$500 billion opportunity" over the next few decades...

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 03 Jul 2015 13:26

Interesting in fact IIT HYd has launched an executive MS/Mtech for techies who wish to hone their skills in a particular area of their choice. Speaking of training people there are now websites which provide you with virtual environment with IDE for specific language of your choice theopentutotials is one such website. Github and Overstack community and several such foras exist for middle to advanced users to brain storm and discuss their issues. Things are looking good.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby kenop » 03 Jul 2015 23:22

I have been regularly tweeting this https://twitter.com/kenopbr/status/617008067515842560
@narendramodi @smritiirani What steps are being taken to ensure suitably higher salaries to school teachers? Most are paid peanuts

Reached a score of 20 (pun intended) so far.
I think school teachers can be and must be paid better. No amount of calculations with respectable profit margins for the owner justifies the current levels :x
I intend to continue tweeting this as long as I am active on twitter (not quite sure if I will required to stop tweeting this due to a nice resolution)

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby RoyG » 04 Jul 2015 06:23

Shreeman wrote:Roy,

I wont be able to explain this to you, and its my limitation. Here are some parting observations. Politicians decide the countrys defense. They decide the rules that govern education. And by the same token, also the rules of marriage -- how many, what age, whether divorce is permitted, if dowry is allowed, and if/when you can burn the bride/groom. It is only in the last that you see grass root action -- marriage outside of caste/religion? Bam! No politicians needed.

Re. khan academy, as I noted before, it has limitations, inadequacies, and not so well meaning aspects. If you or yours found it useful, good. Accumulate knowledge any which way. But it is not now, and never will be a replacement for proper schooling.
cheers.


"Grass root action" within the rules that govern education? Kejriwal jai ho.

Not sure what your beef is with Khan academy. Khan academy type of system can be a replacement
for certain subjects. Other than that it is supplementary.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2015 10:54

i have read during the pre-WW2 era, hungary was a superpower in math, chemistry and physics (18 nobel prizes) despite its relatively small size.
one of the reasons being they made high school (they called it gymnasium) teaching quality high priority and engaged university level teachers to teach at high school level. one famous lutheran gymnasium produced multiple superstars it seems.

http://www.americanhungarianfederation. ... /nobel.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasori_Gimn%C3%A1zium

It has been one of the best secondary schools in Hungary. Among its students were the following:

Eugene Wigner (Nobel Prize winner physicist and mathematician)
John Harsanyi (Nobel Prize winner economist)
John von Neumann (mathematician and polymath)
Edward Teller (physicist)
György Faludy (poet)
Emmerich Kalman (composer)
Kálmán Kandó (inventor) – for five years
Sándor Petőfi (poet) – for two years

Among the further students and teachers were Georg Lukács, Theodor Herzl, Antal Doráti, Alfréd Haar, Miksa Fenyő, Gyula Szepesy, Adolf Fényes, Miksa Falk, Aurél Stein and Vilmos Tátrai.

László Rátz was a legendary teacher of mathematics in the school, after whom a Medal and an Achievement Award was later named.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2015 10:56

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1sz ... _R%C3%A1tz

It is a rare, special human trait in teachers to be able to deal with students more talented than themselves, being able to kindly and effectively transfer their life experience and body of knowledge to those more gifted. László Rátz was such a teacher, with refined sense for talent that he dealt with as equals, as colleagues, as peers. He invited his own students to weekend cafe chit-chats, into the company of his university colleagues, which meant a great deal in days and times when teachers had the highest esteem in a society. For instance, when he felt he could no longer provide anything more to John von Neumann, he requested the university professor Michael Fekete to help out and teach him. He invited Eugene Wigner into his own home, provided him with "especially interesting" books, whose contents they would later discuss in detail.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby gakakkad » 04 Jul 2015 11:08

excellent find singha...

I often wondered about the factors responsible for the explosion of basic sciences knowledge from 1880 to 1950 . World wars probably had something to do with it... Also the fact that advancement of one field made other field possible ...like electron microscope and x ray diffraction crystallography made modern biology possible...

But teachers like Laslo Ratz had done there bit too...

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Arjun » 04 Jul 2015 12:44

Most of these Hungarian Nobel prize winners are Jews....

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 04 Jul 2015 19:26

Teachers make a big difference. It has to be seen to be believed. This was definitely true in the physics circles around Calcutta of the old days...even 20 years ago. Even as a UG student one could chat over a cup of tea bought by young faculty in their company. There is no stratification like elsewhere in India. It impressed me greatly and the success stories are not limited to any one particular community, except maybe classified by native tongue as the predominant numbers were of local origin.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 04 Jul 2015 20:32

Paul Erdos was hungarian too. Szemerédi whose theorem in combinatorics, Szemerédi's Regularity Lemma, is considered one of the most elegant theorems, in Computer Science/Combionatorics and has played a large part in recognizing TCS as part of Mathematics (at least according to Knuth which he said in a one interview). Erdos was legendary teacher. His biography - The man who loved only numbers - is worth reading.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 04 Jul 2015 20:39

I have read likes of Meghanad Saha and SN Bose were also very approachable in fact Bose used to discuss latest developments in physics which were obviously under research let alone a part of curricula with his students , he and his students learnt German just to get access to latest papers and research.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 04 Jul 2015 20:59

ECE dept. of OU Hyderabad also had a very similar environment when I was a student there. It was not so excepting a couple of in the main Engg. college which is separated from ECE building by the main university road which starts at AMS Women's college and ends at Tarnaka. The exceptions were professors who studied in the US. Others were traditionally from UK/Europe or were students of UK/Europe educated.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 04 Jul 2015 21:04

A corollary to having good teachers is that there should be personal interactions in and out of class. Distance learning AKA ekalavya mode is a little too unwieldy unless the student in question is very very (very) motivated. Not everything is written in text books/journal papers (leave alone conference papers). Informal seminars, group brown bag lunches, chai/biscuit/coffee/beer/peanut sessions during conference after hours play a big role in ground-breaking ideas.

What I have seen in Indian context is that teachers are afraid that their students might outshine them and/or steal their ideas. That is there everywhere but if one has to rate on a scale, probably India ranks higher than the US.

Again managers in India are always in conflict with their subordinates. In the US it is a little more relaxed.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jul 2015 21:33

@kenop, what constitutes decent salary for high school teachers ? beginner govt school teacher salary is at par with ITvity @30k p.m
the manpower quality too is fairly decent. they clear some quite competitive exams to bag those jobs.
yet it is the lowly paid pvt school teachers who fare much better in taking care of students.

same with college faculties. quality of teaching seems to be inversely proportional to salary of teachers.

Bade saar, I dont know about uni's but in the research institute where I studied it was fairly normal for students and faculty to share a morning cuppa and discussing the latest interesting developments. however I hear the current high nosed director has created a new faculty only canteen, so effectively nixing that kind of interaction.

p.s. funny anecdote :
one of my teachers was a student of SNBose. once, he delivered a lecture to MSc students and went for lunch (@ home if memory serves right). while busy mixing rice with the dish of the day he suddenly realized he had made a mistake in calculation. the lunch forgotten, he immediately left home, hailed a taxi, got to the PG campus, herded his students back to class and corrected the mistake.
the funny thing was that he was in such a hurry to correct the mistake that he didn't even bother to wash his hand till he had finished delivering the correction lecture and for the full couple of hours it took from lunch to lecture he kept his right hand up in the air like a signal flag. because of course, the hand you have eaten with is 'etho' and no self respecting bhadralok would touch anything with that hand till he had cleaned it ! :D

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 04 Jul 2015 21:52

I do not know if the old charm exists in today's Kolkata for the basic sciences among the students, but it was very much alive in the 80s too. We used to have a informal seminar for UG called CPT society where UGs were asked to present their ideas on research topics. Most of us were off the mark but it encouraged public speaking on technical topics and debate. The acronym was chosen intelligently...it was not after the famous CPT-theorem, but meant for 'Chat Physics with Tea', tea paid for by the faculty of course. We used to also chit-chat with the younger profs at the chai stalls outside of the classrooms too. One of the pioneers of this idea was a US returned young gun, but he is back in the US at a west coast univ nowadays.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Jul 2015 22:26

At least back in my day Profs did not hang out with students at my Univ. Education for the elites is actually pretty good in India. We can see that most of these folks do pretty well in the west, publish papers, get awards, run companies, etc. It is the proles who are out in the cold.... ..I was fortunate in the Government schools I attended. Good teachers there, but very strict and boring.

RahulM,

Government teacher salary is not that good in most places. In CG it starts at Rs 3,800 pm and after 20 years gets to about Rs 9,000 pm. Still there is a mad scramble for these jobs ad way over qualified and uninterested types end up with these jobs. In rural TN last I checked it started at Rs 4,500. My uncle who was the headmaster of a Government High School in TN made ~ Rs20,000 pm after 40 years of service. He does get 2/3's that as pension.
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jul 2015 22:33

>> I do not know if the old charm exists in today's Kolkata for the basic sciences among the students, but it was very much alive in the 80s too.

the charm has reduced (in those days 90% of top students would opt for phys/math and to a lesser extent, chemistry) but still there. presi and some of the other good colleges still get decent students.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jul 2015 22:46

Theo saar, what is CG ? the numbers you are quoting are either a) very old or b) refers to temporary teachers only.

an IITM phys PG I know is a govt school teacher in WB, started out with ~ 25k p.m. now keep in mind that the pay scales are same everywhere and WB govt has one of the lowest values of dearness allowance. it should be higher in most if not all other states.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 04 Jul 2015 23:41

Pay stub of a teacher is pretty decent, my cousin brother is a teacher and so is my father's sister (she is a headmaster in some school in a village near Lansdowne ) . I have never heard them complain and they are doing well after the 6th pay commission. The difficult part is the initial tenure where just like govt doctors you need to serve in rural or far flung areas . My cousin brother is in one such school in Garhwal , he says there are just 10 students in his school and they too do not come to classes regularly because of various reasons.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 04 Jul 2015 23:53

Central school teachers get > Rs30k per month closer to Rs40k these days from family members. It is better than pay for state college lecturers (Asst Prof) at least in Kerala. Do not know what the private school teachers make. The issue with both private school hiring as well as private college hiring practices are they ask for donation to get the job. These are more like start-ups, in that you have to invest your money to get paid. It takes many years of savings to pay back the loans (from sharks) lower middle class take to pay for the donation upfront.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Jul 2015 06:00

negi wrote:The difficult part is the initial tenure where just like govt doctors you need to serve in rural or far flung areas . My cousin brother is in one such school in Garhwal , he says there are just 10 students in his school and they too do not come to classes regularly because of various reasons.

Negi: Why do you say "rural and far flung" is bad? We were 13 in our 8th composite math. We were educated in thatched roof open on all four sides class rooms. Most - nay all - made out quite comfortably.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Jul 2015 06:05

Bade: How many "Central Schools" - I suppose you mean by that kEndrIya vidyAlaya - are there? I wish I had access to one of those. Alas, old man was a state employee - even though a gold medalist in MPhil from a national institution - and he had to wait long duration for every promotion as the department he was in had very few openings. I still remmeber the day he got his first tape recorder with a measly INR 1000 arrears for which he waited five years.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 05 Jul 2015 06:32

Very good question on KVs. Why so few ? I did not benefit from one either. It was a mixture of convent schools over time with different boards, mostly state boards. At least these days there are also Jawahar (?) Vidyalayas in each district. KVs were limited to those kids whose parents worked for the central govt or PSUs. They should have had the KVs open to all.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 05 Jul 2015 08:55

Vayu sir in Hills specially in districts really close to Himalayas in North or NE rural areas even to this day do not have roads and electricity , there is at times only 1 teacher for a school where total strength might be say 5-20 kids . The teacher is not just supposed to teach but also manage rations and food ; there are kids who walk more than 10 kms one way to school so some stay as boarders . Everyone wants to be a teacher in some nice gobmint school in a posh locality of Dilli or a state capital , once one gets married it is difficult to be focused on just ideals.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jul 2015 11:17

the problem of last mile access to education in remote areas was addressed quite well by ABV's sarva shiksha abhiyan. unfortunately, the SSA teachers are paid peanuts (~ 10k) and do not get other benefits which govt servants get. even worse, in arunachal at least, the initial crop of SSA teachers came from the plains, mainly UP/Bihar and they were quite dedicated and managed to provide a certain level of education to their students. the newer recruits are locals and they dont even stay in their allotted schools, which may be in interior locations and prefer to stay in the towns engaged in a 2nd job/business, while drawing salary as usual.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby kenop » 05 Jul 2015 17:20

Rahul M wrote:@kenop, what constitutes decent salary for high school teachers ? beginner govt school teacher salary is at par with ITvity @30k p.m

In tier II cities that I am familiar with, the salaries for teachers (B Ed) about 7 years ago in private schools
# 4000-5000 with 0-2 years experience. Sampled from 3 schools that a friend tried for job
# One school offered 2000 with transport allowance (which could have been about 1500 at actuals)
# At that time, the principal was getting around 15000.
The interesting part was that two of these schools had "international" in their names. All claimed to be affiliated to CBSE which was not the reality. They had started the process for affiliation. The affiliation mandates certain levels of salaries, qualifications, training (there are refresher courses during the affiliation journey), infrastructure etc. Salaries are where most of the violations take place.
The recent data is not too encouraging either. A few months ago, some of our acquaintances were looking for teaching jobs and I heard worst numbers hovering around 6000 pm and the best at 8500. Not to mention that at some places there are double entry systems where what you get paid is about half of entries made in their registers.
Very sad that no better options are available to most of the teachers (there are more private schools than govt ones). In Himachal, one acquaintance has reached a salary of about 30000 after 15 years of service. Good thing about her situation is that job has pension in the mix. The recent trend is to hire ad-hoc to keep it light takes away much.
Hence I feel that school teachers need to be paid better.
NET/TAT standards have been introduced for qualification, that are claimed to be followed by the private schools, but I am not sure if they pay commensurate to govt scales.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 05 Jul 2015 20:58

Rahul M wrote:Theo saar, what is CG ? the numbers you are quoting are either a) very old or b) refers to temporary teachers only. .


CG is Chattisgarh. Permanent jobs are almost impossible to get. The relative I know is 13 years temp. in TN my data is from my cousins who are teachers. Both private & public. In rural areas the pay scale slides way way down. The numbers you are talking about are in big cities at the top of the pay scale with all the boxes checked and with big fat dearness allowance and housing perks. Bottom of the pay scale is where the majority are hired. Private school teachers rates are worse than this. It is possible that things have improved as it is a couple of years since I checked. That said my another relative after 15 years got made permanent in a Private School in CG last month. There were three interviews she had to go thru. Rs 13,000 pm pay with provident fund. There was a big celebration.

Edit: These are primary school pay.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 05 Jul 2015 21:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 05 Jul 2015 21:12

What is the situation in other states (TN, WB) on private school hiring practices. Do they ask for donations from teachers.

What about in private colleges (non-Engg, non-Medical) ? Do they also ask for donations. In KL they do.

The professional colleges have teacher scarcity, so they do not ask new hires to put money (Rs10-20L) upfront as they can squeeze the students for the same. I have a friend who paid Rs1 crore for a medical seat for their daughter in Bengaluru. So professional education (non-IIT, NITs, IISERs) is only for the rich in India, propagating a new class system.


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