Indian Education System

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SriKumar
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby SriKumar » 21 Mar 2009 19:23

shaardula wrote:
The core idea behind an experiment is to let nature teach you. Using a program in lieu of an experiment is akin to reading about something rather than doing it.
this is also correct. but to make this point you reduce the value of simulation. i used to be a TA for courses in controls, probability and stochastics.
My comment was within the context of the first post by Arya where the proposal was for simulation as opposed to experimentation. I concur with negi's point that to replace experimentation with simulation is to miss the importance of experimentation (a basic failing in the education system, IMHO- it is driven too much by theory).

I agree that there is a need and place for simulation, I've done a lot of them :) (note that the simulation you talk about- stochastic modeling, is quite different from the simulations Arya referred to) but within the context of Indian school education, I think experiments should be emphasized a lot more. And the experiments dont have to be complex, there is a lot one can learn with very simple things like rolling a cylinder down an inclined plane and trying to calculate the velocity (one has to account for rotational dynamics, friction and, hey, statistical differences in the experiment, to come up with explanations), or how high a ball will bounce the second time (depends on height and other factors such as material, shape of ball etc. all neatly rolled into co-eff of restitution eh?)

well that way textbook problems are also simulations.
True, but if you pose a simple model for a practical problem and find that your answer does not match the experiment, you will go looking for the source of the difference in solution...and that will tell you something about the system that you did not know before. That is the learning that comes from an experiment, which will never come from textbook reading. You also learn how to trouble-shoot unknown systems- the most important lesson from an experiment, IMHO.

in real life there are no well posed problems. there are no problems like x =2, y =3 find z = x + y. you go around normal life without ever formulating the problems you have as a geometric series. and yet solving z = x + y is rewarding.
The point you bring up (x=2, y=3 vs. using a series), I see that as a matter of the level of accuracy needed from a theoretical solution. As an example, if one wants understand projectile motion i.e. where will a projectile of mass 'm' and velocity 'v' land- one can write a set of equations of increasing complexity, starting with simplest ones first and checking the level of error between theory and experiment. If the error band is large, you try to go beyond just mass, initial velocity and acceleration due to gravity and incorporate more and more of the real-world physics like wind speed, direction, temperature, projectile shape- (some may be second-order effects and some not ). Taking each of these into account progressively complicates the models and decreases the error, but you are learning from nature. How accurate is accurate enough is a judgment that the student can always make during the experiment.
Last edited by SriKumar on 21 Mar 2009 21:57, edited 2 times in total.

KrishnaMu
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 21 Mar 2009 19:34

Arya Sumantra wrote:
negi wrote:Arya , that's a novel suggestion however I think that we need to differentiate between simulations and experiments ; the former can be only used to improve comprehension/understanding of a physical phenomenon/equipment one cannot use computer simulations as a substitute for 'experiment'.

In fact the word 'experiment' refers to actually trying out the idea/theory in the physical world .
I am unable to imagine as to how a simulator will help a child learn the nuances involved in 'simple salt analysis', 'finding the refractive index of the prism' or say 'finding the focal length of a convex mirror'.


i think you we came back to square one. Because all these simulation experiment from your paragraphs explanation sound like "Extended theory" or "Theory in GUI" :( . If those spanish kids need not launch ballon actually either they can use google earth and microsoft virtual earth take pictures of down or browse internet can down load stratosphire pictures. Its the learning process

Automating picture taking process
Tracking ballon (whole try /fail process)
Validating electronic equipment in different environments
Working with responsiblities at the age

can only be achived with "Experiments" and there is no replacement for experiment at that tender age. Simulations for high end quanties in R & D.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby shaardula » 21 Mar 2009 19:48

krishna yes, but there is a case for using good illustrations/animations to help understand concepts, no? but i see your point about 'theory in gui'. its no substitute.

perhaps a compromise is the types of programs ugc used to have. they were all mostly classes in higher education. perhaps they can broadcast material on basic courses. even seeing a good teacher do experiments is more likely to be productive.

it is almost impossible for schools in villages to have labs. logistics for one. there are many schools were teachers are themselves not there. even if they are many are incompetent.

open access teaching material and figuring out how to distribute it and use it, will go a long way.

btw, i found excellent channel from IISc+IIT. but again for higher education.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=npt ... =playlists

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Singha » 21 Mar 2009 21:38

I estimate to have passed a total of around 200 exams in the killing fields of PU, btech and mtech using the formula (all_courses_taken x (mid_sems + end_sems)). it changed me and life has never been the same.
some part of my life has been a struggle to recapture some of the humanity I had as a high school kid, before
falling into the killing fields.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby shaardula » 21 Mar 2009 22:21

hahaha. inescapable. without those exams average indians would be kasab redux. calculus and appolonious theorem is great distraction, even it gives you no prespective, it takes your mind away from useless ones. real perspectives you have a whole life to figure out.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 21 Mar 2009 23:33

Singha wrote:I estimate to have passed a total of around 200 exams in the killing fields of PU, btech and mtech using the formula (all_courses_taken x (mid_sems + end_sems)). it changed me and life has never been the same.
some part of my life has been a struggle to recapture some of the humanity I had as a high school kid, before
falling into the killing fields.


Great summary. I am also in the same boat, after 10th (big exam you have to score enroumus marks to get into good college) + intermediate exams (+2 you have repeat the same again)+ EAMCET(you have to hate the next person breathing in your class) + followed by other semister. By the time i finished my teenage and young age is finished. After that i didnt went into marriage trap stright away like my friends did. Lucky me, bit travelling (europe), moutain cycling (breaking legs here and there), treaking, rock climbing, scale modelling usual season local sports i am enjoying as we speak, but i have to regret the fact i didnt have funny teenage. bloody exams, ranks and physics, maths grinds.

After 11 yrs of my study last week i have bad dream last week(its true i am not making this up) that i didnt secure a rank in entrance exam (just imagine how much psychological damage and abuse Can i sue my exam board??) :eek: :eek:

Anywho my point is when it comes practical education we are at least 60 years behind rest of developed world....

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Arya Sumantra » 22 Mar 2009 01:45

KrishnaMu wrote:i think you we came back to square one. Because all these simulation experiment from your paragraphs explanation sound like "Extended theory" or "Theory in GUI" :( . If those spanish kids need not launch ballon actually either they can use google earth and microsoft virtual earth take pictures of down or browse internet can down load stratosphire pictures. Its the learning process

Automating picture taking process
Tracking ballon (whole try /fail process)
Validating electronic equipment in different environments
Working with responsiblities at the age

can only be achived with "Experiments" and there is no replacement for experiment at that tender age. Simulations for high end quanties in R & D.


It won't be totally a "theory in GUI". Variations in specimen, errors in readings, instrument limitations can be simulated realistically. All depends on how powerful and fast is the configuration of central workstation of the education board/school doing all this and transmitting via internet to the student's terminal. So it will be beyond theory in GUI but short of a complex simulator that is slow to give results. Besides learning from books is the oldest way and very slow process. In this days of youtube and gaming audio-visual environments it is very outdated. Besides researchers need to learn or brush up fundas in shortest time possible and at their convenient time. Sitting with fat books on weekends does not really help.

It is difficult to imagine actual labs being built in remotest schools of indian villages. So my proposal is an intermediate solution

Besides even for urban youth with facilities, it allows flexibility to learn at any time from home. Here an Audio-visual learning experience replaces an Audio-visual-smell-touch experience of a real practical. It's not complete but good for learning in short time OR preparing in advance for an experiment OR refreshing the memory of experiment done in past.

Also for medical students how many get to dissect a corpse alone? Whereas here a student can dissect a virtual corpse as many times he wants, at any time or stop in between and resume again. Now this one would be complicated but not impossible.

Can any of the IT guys tell me what IT tools(languages, softwares etc) does one need to master to produce a platform that my proposal describes?

ADDED LATER: Modi is bringing broadband to all 18,000 villages next to enable distance learning. Wouldn't this be an easier way to bring labs to village schools or bringing science to laymen who have curiosity but are intimidated by thick books
Last edited by Arya Sumantra on 22 Mar 2009 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 22 Mar 2009 01:59

Arya, Shardula sir your points are well taken and ofcourse simulations/computer models do have a place in modern edu system along side the 'experiments'/practicals; however all this while I was trying to highlight was the fact that end of the day 'cost' and 'effectiveness' of the method would govern its utility. There might be instances where probably simulations would be re-requisite or desirable step prior to conducting the actual experiment specially when the latter might require costly apparatus and laborious set up; and again there might be experiments which might take humongous computing power and yet might not be able to account for all the real world 'variables'.

Take for instance the 'dissection of a body part' as mentioned by Arya; the skill and deft touch of a surgeon who has to differentiate a tumour/scar tissue from rest of the vital parts amidst blood/gore cannot be tested using a simulator . Hell one will have to employ say a 'rubber doll' with all pressure transducers to simulate the toughness of human exo-skeleton (I dont see how this would be modeled on a computer alone ); in a country like India perhaps a dead body is a more viable option.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Arya Sumantra » 22 Mar 2009 02:20

negi wrote:Take for instance the 'dissection of a body part' as mentioned by Arya; the skill and deft touch of a surgeon who has to differentiate a tumour/scar tissue from rest of the vital parts amidst blood/gore cannot be tested using a simulator . Hell one will have to employ say a 'rubber doll' with all pressure transducers to simulate the toughness of human exo-skeleton (I dont see how this would be modeled on a computer alone ); in a country like India perhaps a dead body is a more viable option.


In massa they do use such fake corpses or plastic dolls because of shortage of corpses. Surely those dolls don't ooze blood during dissection or completely simulate human body. Even in India, if not for poverty or unclaimed dead bodies the corpses won't be available. How many would donate the body of their close kith and kin for dissection by med students instead of giving them a burial or cremation? The med-schools are actually short of corpses.

Also the human body is so vast with so many nerves and so many organs stuffed inside that one would be able to familiarize with body much better with such a tool. Remember munnabhai mbbs :lol: you have the entire class watching a single corpse being dissected by a prof. And the students struggle to get a view.
Besides, dissection of virtual corpse is an addition and not replacement of actual dissection being witnessed by student.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Arya Sumantra » 22 Mar 2009 02:32

negi wrote:There might be instances where probably simulations would be re-requisite or desirable step prior to conducting the actual experiment specially when the latter might require costly apparatus and laborious set up; and again there might be experiments which might take humongous computing power and yet might not be able to account for all the real world 'variables'.


School experiments are simple only. Vernier callipers/Micrometers with a zero error do not need a heavy duty computation. IC designers use all the circuit simulators PSPICE and whatnot. But for school level electrical experiments perhaps an open-source circuit simulator working in background while student assembles it in GUI could do the job.

For higher education it becomes computation heavy

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 22 Mar 2009 06:26

Arya Sumantra wrote:
KrishnaMu wrote:....(i dont want BR bandwidth in recession times ... :-)
Automating picture taking process
Tracking ballon (whole try /fail process)
Validating electronic equipment in different environments
Working with responsiblities at the age

can only be achived with "Experiments" and there is no replacement for experiment at that tender age. Simulations for high end quanties in R & D.


It won't be totally a "theory in GUI". Variations in specimen, errors in readings, instrument limitations can be simulated realistically. All depends on how powerful and fast is the configuration of central workstation of the education board/school doing all this and transmitting via internet to the student's terminal. So it will be beyond theory in GUI but short of a complex simulator that is slow to give results. Besides learning from books is the oldest way and very slow process. In this days of youtube and gaming audio-visual environments it is very outdated. Besides researchers need to learn or brush up fundas in shortest time possible and at their convenient time. Sitting with fat books on weekends does not really help.

It is difficult to imagine actual labs being built in remotest schools of indian villages. So my proposal is an intermediate solution

Besides even for urban youth with facilities, it allows flexibility to learn at any time from home. Here an Audio-visual learning experience replaces an Audio-visual-smell-touch experience of a real practical. It's not complete but good for learning in short time OR preparing in advance for an experiment OR refreshing the memory of experiment done in past.

Also for medical students how many get to dissect a corpse alone? Whereas here a student can dissect a virtual corpse as many times he wants, at any time or stop in between and resume again. Now this one would be complicated but not impossible.

Can any of the IT guys tell me what IT tools(languages, softwares etc) does one need to master to produce a platform that my proposal describes?

ADDED LATER: Modi is bringing broadband to all 18,000 villages next to enable distance learning. Wouldn't this be an easier way to bring labs to village schools or bringing science to laymen who have curiosity but are intimidated by thick books

I agree but we are talking a greater workstantion capability in public schools, i dont want talk about the rich snoobish DPS... this is about my school with astabastas sheet on top (some times under neem tree, yes i am poor and i am proud of it) but my school has test tubes we made oxygen but these rank oriented mark oriented thoeoritical schools student i met in college never touched the test tube (test tube is best example )... this is about basic experiments not wind tunnel testing i am talking here..

I am not convenced here with "glorious GUI". Take an example CERN didnt need to construct expensive rig to test few god damn particles it may achived via simulaitons but still they did (failed hopefully they will fix it next time). But my theory is no substitute experiments with younger brains.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby shaardula » 22 Mar 2009 07:15

glorious gui has its pitfalls. but in cases where there are no teachers, it can be the closest approximation. teacher absentee-ism is a greater problem than lack of labs.

in any case aryan wants to try something +ve. i would not discourage him. lets face it given conditions, neither you nor i will roll up our dhotis and teach/supervise these kids learning their science. we should not expect that others will. everything has a pitfall and opportunity costs. simulations cant do smell, but if really interests kids in disenfrenchised circumstances can plug in a cd and learn how to do integration by parts or what conic sections are, or how valency works, i dont see whats wrong with gui.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Jay » 22 Mar 2009 07:20

KrishnaMu wrote:
Singha wrote:I estimate to have passed a total of around 200 exams in the killing fields of PU, btech and mtech using the formula (all_courses_taken x (mid_sems + end_sems)). it changed me and life has never been the same.
some part of my life has been a struggle to recapture some of the humanity I had as a high school kid, before
falling into the killing fields.


Great summary. I am also in the same boat, after 10th (big exam you have to score enroumus marks to get into good college) + intermediate exams (+2 you have repeat the same again)+ EAMCET(you have to hate the next person breathing in your class) + followed by other semister. By the time i finished my teenage and young age is finished. After that i didnt went into marriage trap stright away like my friends did. Lucky me, bit travelling (europe), moutain cycling (breaking legs here and there), treaking, rock climbing, scale modelling usual season local sports i am enjoying as we speak, but i have to regret the fact i didnt have funny teenage. bloody exams, ranks and physics, maths grinds.

After 11 yrs of my study last week i have bad dream last week(its true i am not making this up) that i didnt secure a rank in entrance exam (just imagine how much psychological damage and abuse Can i sue my exam board??) :eek: :eek:

Anywho my point is when it comes practical education we are at least 60 years behind rest of developed world....


Ditto onlee. Folks started pushing me into exams since I got into 8 standard and life was never the same again and before one knew it you are nearing 30's and suddenly thinking what the hell happened the last 15 or so years. I always have this recurring bad dream with the same theme, taking an crucial exam and am failing. I wish I have a time machine so that I can go back to that 12 year old boy and say 'Relax, do not sweat, things will be OK'. Maa Baap has a different perspective. Lookie, what all that pushing made you now, for which my answer always will be, JACK.....

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Arya Sumantra » 22 Mar 2009 07:32

KrishnaMu wrote:I agree but we are talking a greater workstantion capability in public schools, i dont want talk about the rich snoobish DPS... this is about my school with astabastas sheet on top (some times under neem tree, yes i am poor and i am proud of it) but my school has test tubes we made oxygen but these rank oriented mark oriented thoeoritical schools student i met in college never touched the test tube (test tube is best example )... this is about basic experiments not wind tunnel testing i am talking here..

I am not convenced here with "glorious GUI". Take an example CERN didnt need to construct expensive rig to test few god damn particles it may achived via simulaitons but still they did (failed hopefully they will fix it next time). But my theory is no substitute experiments with younger brains.


Why are you taking this proposal as a substitute for practical labs? Your poor school still had the labs. The village schools don't. The workstation may belong to the education board and may be installed one per district connected to village schools where you could even use second hand pcs or donated pcs for the said purpose.

In urban scenario it complements labs as a tutor medium available 24x7 for self-study to current students and those refreshing their fundas or pure laymen.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 22 Mar 2009 18:38

Arya Sumantra wrote:
KrishnaMu wrote:..


Why are you taking this proposal as a substitute for practical labs? Your poor school still had the labs. The village schools don't. The workstation may belong to the education board and may be installed one per district connected to village schools where you could even use second hand pcs or donated pcs for the said purpose.

In urban scenario it complements labs as a tutor medium available 24x7 for self-study to current students and those refreshing their fundas or pure laymen.


“Glorious GUI” education can be substitute for Teaching across the schools in a standard. It can never be substitute for practicals especially the young one let us say 10th standard. After 10th Standard may this “GUI” education can be fun to learn but I strongly dont recommand under 10th standard for this “GUI”.

Looks you have been to India only urban areas power cut in villages despite the season is high. Say only 18 hours guarnteed in summer it will be down to 8 hours. This whole computerised learning is suitable for rich DPS not kaccha schools.
I am extremely sorry our opinions doesnt match or didnt find common ground so far.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 22 Mar 2009 22:17

What's with this DPS bashing going on in B-R of late? :(( Has DPS now become such a bastion of snobs like Modern School and Doon School??? If I am not mistaken, even Ray sir whose school is definitely more upper crust was calling DPS hoity toity, the other week! If bashing is to be done please also bash the other more traditionally 'upper crust' schools such as Doon, Modern, St.Columba's, La Mat. ityadi apart from DPS. The only thing which set DPS (I am talking about RKP onlee) apart from these other schools during my time there, was the excellent performance of its students in...you guessed it.... Exams! :twisted: ...and ofcourse the short non-regulation skirts worn by the PYTs :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vera_k » 22 Mar 2009 22:56

My 2nd grader was recently asked to dissect an eye and this discussion about simulation set me thinking.

It seems to me that areas with limited power supply should specialize in the biological sciences. Because much learning in that field can be accomplished using a microscope, a scalpel and remnants from the local butcher. Pursuit of such specialization may be the solution to alleviating the million doctor shortage reporterd in the press recently.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby suryag » 23 Mar 2009 00:05

Jay wrote: I always have this recurring bad dream with the same theme, taking an crucial exam and am failing.
Thank uparwaalah I thought i was the only one having these dreams.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 23 Mar 2009 00:54

Raja Bose wrote:What's with this DPS bashing going on in B-R of late? :(( Has DPS now become such a bastion of snobs like Modern School and Doon School??? If I am not mistaken, even Ray sir whose school is definitely more upper crust was calling DPS hoity toity, the other week! If bashing is to be done please also bash the other more traditionally 'upper crust' schools such as Doon, Modern, St.Columba's, La Mat. ityadi apart from DPS. The only thing which set DPS (I am talking about RKP onlee) apart from these other schools during my time there, was the excellent performance of its students in...you guessed it.... Exams! :twisted: ...and ofcourse the short non-regulation skirts worn by the PYTs :mrgreen:


I Didnt meant to upset any body from DPS alumini or current students. Its just me if you think of snobbery first thing come into my mind DPS. Just an opinion/example.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Mar 2009 01:00

Krishna,

That was my question. Was your opinion formed after interacting with some Dipsites? If so, it is really sad since then DPS is headed the Modern School way, - all bombast and no bandobast!

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby KrishnaMu » 23 Mar 2009 01:21

Raja Bose wrote:Krishna,

That was my question. Was your opinion formed after interacting with some Dipsites? If so, it is really sad since then DPS is headed the Modern School way, - all bombast and no bandobast!


Yes sadly i met few on my career, (well not all of them) what baffals me is some these w.....kers think they almost the direct descent of god because they are from DPS. later i replied back to them few years back after that "Grotiscous DPS MMS clip" i replied them "well done lads! DPS is leading in school in India using MMS technology". They never come back though. It is entirely wrong to under/ over estimate any body capabilities where they came from... i dont give rats in my team if they didnt get the goal in time.... I am open to suggestions, open for my improvment and learn learn..

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby manish » 23 Mar 2009 01:41

Raja Bose wrote:Krishna,

That was my question. Was your opinion formed after interacting with some Dipsites? If so, it is really sad since then DPS is headed the Modern School way, - all bombast and no bandobast!

Bose saheb, I am going out on a limb here, but it might just me similar to the dislike people have developed for Eye Eye Yums - the brand has become too big or has developed a certain snob value so much so that there's an entire category defined around it rather than the brand being in the category.

I will tell you a little anectode - I was once sitting with a few members of my extended family at a function and there was this DPS(BLR) attending cousin of mine who happened to be the daughter of one of my uncles who was an Eye Eye Yum graduate and all - someone casually asked this girl as to how she was planning to spend her holidays - she casually replied that her friends are planning a 'picnic' in massaland but she may or may not go. Hearing this, me and my other cousins nearly fell out of our chairs, given our backgrounds from small town Yindia where such things seemed an impossibility while growing up. This was a few years ago and the majority in that gathering were not from a metro sort of upbringing. What this does is it probably reinforces a certain kind of an image to be associated with the name DPS, the one that is built up by the media around events like the MMS scandal. Call it whatever you will. JMT and sorry for attempting a go at piskology!

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Mar 2009 03:59

Interestingly the girl in the MMS clip was a bengali and belonged to the same class XII section as I did (ofcourse she is many years junior to me). That clip it seems had been circulating amongst DPS fellas for a long time before it got out into the media. From all accounts she was a typical rich kid coz I heard she was 'exiled' to Australia! :roll: DPS has always been a den of promiscuity (which is wonderphool onlee as I recall it!) but it seems now it is turning into a den of nawabi snobs too.

I can see why statements like 'deciding to go on a picnic to massa' will cause a snob kind of impression. That is typical rich kids mentality I used to see in Modern School, Doon School types where kids were blowing their baap ka jaagir right and left. My impressions of DPS are limited to DPS RKP (where I went) and not any of these new DPS schools that have come up. While it was never a Kendriya Vidyalaya type school in terms of expenses or facilities, most of the people I knew were from ordinary middle class background with a few rich kids scattered here and there. Ofcourse all that seems to be changing....it only spells doom for what was the best school in academics (and one of the best in sports) in India. Stan's heart throb Anjum Chopra (woman cricketer) was from DPS RKP. :mrgreen:

BTW I didnt know DPS has a branch in BLR?! They must be holding the World record or something for most number of branches.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 23 Mar 2009 06:29

Oh , DPS has I think FOUR branches in Bangalore , NSEW onree, all covered.

The typical DPS type I see (atleast in my apt complex) are the Dilli types, not exactly "traditionally" rich / so-piss-ticated/ well "ejjucated" in the typical old world schools and very high on social index and noblesse oblige, but rather the more "striving" middle class, brash, noveau arrivistes, whose parents are typically in IT/Vity, mid to senior mgt level types of companies and /or business.

The dilli types tend to pull along the other wannabe dilli types ( SHQ says they are called Choams ). DPS really is the "colonial" outpost of Dilli in these areas , training expat dilli types in the staccato dilli Inglees .

Of course, Dilli "Public" School, is a strict no no for my kid. KV onree saar, if they will let the kid in , or it will be a typical traditional Bengaluru school , the kinds my mom , my uncle, cousins went to. I dont buy this "Dilli Billi" definition of "posh" and "in circle" vs "out circle" garbage. if the kid needs to be hoity toity, I'd rather send her to the "real" hoity toity international schools, than the pale Dilli Billi imitation. :D

Gosh, imagine how it will when the Dilli "Public" School kids in Bangalore grow up.. an army of Barkha Dutt like diction and talkers throwing their weights around. Isn't just one Barkha Dutt enough for heaven's sake ?.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby chilarai » 23 Mar 2009 06:52

My school in Assam which used to be a Kendriya Vidyalaya got converted to a DPS. The PSU refinery funding the KV decided to shift loyalty to DPS. The fees ofcourse went skyhigh as a result. But general consensus amongts the parents is that its a good change as the kids are speak better english now :). I ofcourse disagree

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Singha » 23 Mar 2009 08:46

Vina you are only partially correct. think of any middle/low ranking ITivyt type whether from NSEW does not matter. where is their kids to be educated?

NPS - 1000 applications for 1 seat, mother should preferably not work and annual gross preferably > 20L

the "old schools" you talk of are presumably bishop cotton, sophia, st josephs - all are in middle of town and have a limited to no bus service using poisonous looking antique vans. sending your kid there unless you live in CBD is a 2.5 hr daily ordeal. and most Itvity dont have drivers and extra cars. and they too charge hefty fees
and donations notwithstanding their "catholic virtues"

International like inventure academy, TISB, Indus, Aditi mallya and the playschool cousin Neev - too expensive and dont offer ICSE/CBSE

KV - limited seats and only govt employees allowed probably. the best KVs are attached to PSUs onree like
steel cities.

Kumaran's - the darling of the "strict south indian upbringing" jayanagar/jp nagar crowd. play schools in the
vicinity run a "kota course" to clear the kumarans entrace exam for class1.

it leaves only a few pvt schools where on has a realistic chance and the kid neednt get killed on the bus ride.

quite a few people from my colony and office send their children to DPS and its nowhere like what you describe.
these are all newish schools and dont have the "Mayo boys" or "Doon elite" or "St stephens" kind of colonial
history to them. DPS rkpuram is where maybe some of uber rich dilli elites send their kids . you cant extend
that lineraly to 150+ DPS franchises nationwide and in gulf.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 23 Mar 2009 08:50

better english now :rotfl: :rotfl:


Hey Muscular ! Hey Popular !
Spectacular and a Schmoozer !

Pappu ki gaadi tez hai , Pappu kudiyon mein craze hai .
Pappu ki aankehn light blue, dikhta Pappu Angrez hai..
Angreeez hai!

But Pappu cant Dance Saala!.
Pappu Naach Nahin Sakta.

Dipsite Nach Nahin Sakta

Bolta Dipslite Dinglish Main, Karta Choo Cha Angrezi Main

But, Dipsite cant dance saala.
Last edited by vina on 23 Mar 2009 09:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby shaardula » 23 Mar 2009 09:20

hmm. that is a real problem you have. never occurred schooling was such a premium on that side of ORR. should have guessed. only uber rich can afford to even start schools. and by necessity they have be new schools, with no established record. so borrowed credentials. problem only.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 23 Mar 2009 09:22

I simply dont get the fetish of the Yindians for the K-12 school. I see some of the guys (esp , from outside ) go totally ballistic with worry and haste in putting their kids into some "posh" school. In my kid's play school, there is a veritable scramble on to get the kids into one of the "bigger" schools. Some of the other parents are amazed that moi and SHQ are so unflappable about it and they dont get it . They think there is some sinister "strategy" we are playing and keep badgering SHQ on what is it . :rotfl: . The kid gets picked up in a van, gets belted in , goes to the school just 2 blocks away, if necessary, the maid can just walk across (5 mins walk max) and check on her, the play school is clean, nice, we know the folks running it, they actually have a fun learning atmosphere, the kid has learned some social skills, become less of a brat, picks up pen and paper when she comes home and forces me and SHQ to sit with her while she doodles around with her crayons, pencils etc , knows how to count to 20 , sings dances, speaks "Inglees" (she probably picked that up from the apt kids and school, we speak only Tamil and home .), doesn't call us "Daddy" and "Mummy"!, rather Appa and Amma, speaks and understands Hindi and Kannada (SHQ cant learn two words of Kannada to save her life, kid ribs SHQ about that when she tries using a word or two).. What more can one ask for.

But no , the tension is to get the kid out to a "big" school. So , in a PTA meet, there was an entire discussion on which schools etc, and at the end, the school management said, we are starting higher classes (UKG etc) from next year. SHQ immediately piped up and said, "Why didnt you say that in the beginning, we would have saved all this time and gone home or done something else !" :lol: :lol: . So one of the other parents thinking that we were being Chankian, (he had paid Rs 40K and moved the kid to some private school, (some newish one not Dilli PS)) couldn't believe it.

Come on , is going to DPS or Doon or anything going to make any difference at all in life for you . Heck , it can't even get you into college, if you go and CUP your board/entrance exams!. What if you move to another city or even move to another part of Bangalore ??. Are you going to put up with a 2 hr commute or find another school nearby ? Atleast DPS with it's NSEW coverage is a good bet.

Frankly, I find this K-12 school fetish ridiculous. I know it is the system and you have to live with it. But it's crazy, and I think one needs to keep a very healthy skepticism of it.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 23 Mar 2009 09:37

^ Vina ji you are right on the money; however Imo following need to be kept in mind:

1. The background of students which go to the school; my mother always used to say this 'beta hamesha barabar walon ka saath karo' (always keep a company of people with similar antecedents) .Today I realise the value of those words, however good the upbringing at home or qualifications of the teachers not withstanding , a kid will pick things up from the company which he/she keeps. The reason why KV system works is just because of the fact that students come from similar middle class backgrounds with decent value system (brilliant teachers or a good Infra are never associated with a KV or govermund school).

2. Meet the Principal/Headmaster: Unlike other institues/organizations in a school a 'principal'/headmaster has a pivotal role to play infact he/she can actually transform the place .A strict and erudite Principal can keep both the students and the faculty in control and more or less call the shots within the premises. Small things like emphasis on punctuality, neat uniform,talk in english within the premises and other steps to inculcate discipline can be effective only if Principal is competent enough.

JMT

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Mar 2009 11:01

Singha saar, you sure you are not referring to DPS Mathura Road - traditionally haunt of uber rich cats of Delhi under-belly! :mrgreen:

In the end it is does not matter whether you got to DPS, KV or others. There are plenty of fellas from my school batch who went to shitty colleges and there were also plenty who went to good colleges incld. IIT, AIIMS etc. Rest went to more normal places....all is Gauss's maya onlee!

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Prasad » 23 Mar 2009 11:01

I thought DAV schools were also a chain? Are they limited to madras onlee?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby shaardula » 23 Mar 2009 11:02

this is very interesting.

#1. imho, education is not complete unless you mingle with people of all sorts of backgrounds. anybody who has lived in a hostel knows 'we are the people our mothers warn us about'. some of the best life lessons i learnt was during my life in graduate apt living, ug hostel + my pu college where i met people of all sorts of backgrounds including kids whose parents ran garadis (akhadas) or were maids and even pani puri makers. i know friends from good respectable downtown blr schools who have gone wayward. and kids from sundry govt schools in villages who made it big. to give impersonal examples, kumble is from a traditional conservative kannadiga school. so was i-nath only in mysore. joishy's alma mater. dravid is from a posh downtown school. these guys hit it up like an orchestra and i am talking local matches.

#2. utlimately, what vina is hinting is a failing our education system. we have a 'quality' gradient in our schools, even if not in students. even other wise different types of schools have different reaches and ranges. imho, that we have these gradients in basic education is itself a travesty.

#3. but the main point is for every parent their child is precious. they are anxious for their wards. and businesses know that. apart from health, education is the second greatest scam out there. in retrospect, education is all about teachers(in home in school) who flame the inherent curiosity of students. there is only so much teachers can teach. but modern education is all about the secondaries, specifically environment. bottomline in life is how well you connect to your vegetable vendor.

aside: folks like singha have a problem in places like blr. ka has courses in telugu, marathi and tamil, for sure. my classmates, even in mysore & dharwad, did some of these. i also know that you can actually do full telugu medium in blr. but i doubt ka has any support for assamese. i assume central syllabus allows for that. i have no clue.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 23 Mar 2009 11:23

Shaardula , Singha's "problem" (don't know if he even considers it as one, i actually don't) is universal and is called "ass"imilation! . In the end, you get homogenized onree. Whether you are in Massa or in Dilli or Bangalore, the issue is the same. For eg, neither I ,my bro, mom, SHQ can read and write Tamil !. I dont think my kid will either . Most of my relatives kids dont even speak the language at home. Actually , I am grateful I am in India and in Bangalore where the kid actually gets to speak Tamil , Kannada etc because of the "environment" . If the baby had grown up in Massa or Dilli , that would be zilch!. This a problem any person will face outside his "native" state. All kids will grow up learning Inglees and Hindi (more a Dillized / Bollywoodized /Patois) , the rest is all incidental.

I know Indian kids who went to the US in the 5th std or so and simply stop speaking their native languages, one year or so after going to school in New Jersey!.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Mar 2009 11:34

^^^ As someone growing up outside one's home state (I was born in Darjeeling and spent rest of my life in Delhi), I know plenty of friends who didn't grow up speaking their mother tongue. I can speak fluent Bengali since that is what is spoken in my house. Later on I learnt to read and write it too but that was largely self taught. My sister knows how to read and write because she went to Calcutta schools for a while. However, for most expat (known as probashi) bengalis their kids no zilch about their mother tongue and can speak English and Hindi onlee. I think it is the parent's fault that such a thing happens. Naturally the kids who grow up in an environment of other languages will learn them well, such as I did but, if parents don't speak their own mother tongue at home, how is the kid expected to learn it?!

Re. the American accent one sees in desi kids in massa....from day one I watched both my nieces very carefully....but I still have not figured out how the accent creeps in even though the first language they learnt to speak was Bengali and not English! My sister certainly doesnt speak Bengali with an Amirkhani accent and my BIL cannot speak Bengali....so its quite strange. The younger kid does not even watch that much TV or interact with other kids (she is 2 years old) but she also has the same accent in her Bengali! Very intriguing onlee!

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby SaiK » 23 Mar 2009 11:40

imho, a two language formula is always healthier than three. and focus more in the arts, science, etc. it is important parents enforce speaking their mother tongue rather nod and boast their kids speaking inglicks.. this, i am making it clear to my kids.. speak whatever outside, but it has to be the mother tongue at home. its a struggle of course.

i am sure, the new age parents mentality is enough to lose many minor languages, especially the spoken kind., say in about 20-40 years time.

i hope, one day we have languages as electives.. and get extra credits. bring credit system into schools, that gets better recognition. who cares k-12 or k+x+y. kids needs to be encouraged on a path chosen for their wishes and interests. more electives thrown right from middle schools itself or at least from 8th std/grade.

in massa desi kids skip past their grade in certain subjects based on their merits and capability. is this practiced in desh?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 23 Mar 2009 11:50

The spoken language thing is beyond just mom and dad speaking it with the kid(s). I am actually surprised Hakim Saab's nieces speak any Bengali at all, given that BIL is not a Bengali speaker!. So what languages do the kid's parents speak in ?. AmirKhani Inglees !. That is how the kids get the accent from. That is the most "heard" language.

My hypothesis is this. In all cases where I observed a "community" of people speaking the language, the kids pick it up. In the US, the ABCD kids who were actually fluent in their native tongues (Gujarati, Hindi, Punjabi etc ) were kids who had not just parents speaking it, but also grandparents who lived with the family and spoke with them on it, along with say neighbors who also spoke it.

Just a "nuclear" family of mom and dad , trying to get the kids to speak anything is a lost cause. Kid goes to day care, and right there, the mother tongue gets nuked! All other kids speak the other language.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Mar 2009 11:53

My BIL is poor amirkhani onlee but over the years he has learnt to understand Bengali though his speaking is limited to ordering food at Aminiya's! :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby ArmenT » 23 Mar 2009 11:55

I speak both Bengali and Assamese fluently, but with a Tamil accent. My Hindi packs a hint of Tamil as well. Never learned to read or write in either Bengali or Assamese, but I can read and write Tamil (barely though). Oddly enough, most of my Tamil friends couldn't read or write their own language, but could read/write Hindi well!

Slowed down speech patterns when I first moved to the good ol' USA because people had trouble understanding me and people now tell me that I sound very British.

SHQ has learned how to order two rasmalais and two boxes to go in Bengali, which is quite a hit at our local Indian restaurant (which is actually run by Bangladeshis). She even gets the 15% Bengali discount even if she goes without me.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Arya Sumantra » 23 Mar 2009 12:17

How much enthusiasm people show for their native language also depends on availability of quality literature in the language. Richness of a language depends on richness of literature(both tech & non-tech) in the language.When one of my profs wrote his book in French, I wondered why he wrote it in French. But then I realised that intellectuals would have to consciously make an effort to contribute with their writings thereby giving an incentive for people to read books, magazines etc in that language.

At present we have a linguistic dichotomy. English as the language of the brain(language of business, technology etc) and mother-tongue as the language of heart(conveying feelings, communication at home, movies etc). In long-run this will accordingly distribute our literature in respective subjects. All Indian contributions in tech, business etc will be in english and mother tongues will have only movies, social issues literature etc but none in technology, economics, finance etc. Mother-tongues' literature would be subject-wise deficient.

But one needs to fan the language issue carefully else will give rise to more Raj Thakeray type outbursts. It is but natural that as our cities become cosmopolitan and people migrate from one part to another English/Hindi will be more common and local populace will regret the change of city's character. We need to find ways to preserve our languages without treating cosmopolitanism as a threat. At the same time people who migrate need to respect local traditions and should learn local languages if planning to stay long term outside their native state.


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