Indian Education System

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Raja Bose
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 30 Oct 2009 11:15

vina wrote:Aww.. Mentally/Physically , doesnt matter !. Over 25 --> Over the hill.. Welcome to the middle ages bro :P


Speak for chankian Yum Bee Aye strategee types like yourself onlee! :P I am still a nanha mujahid who indulges in drawing cartoons of the distinguished speaker who drones on for 1.5 hours about how he invented the internet. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 30 Oct 2009 11:17

Despite all braggings of the size and comprehensiveness of Eye Eye Tea question banks, I don't think they will ever approach the likes of the massive series of equally massive tomes passed down the generations of chini and korean talibs coming to study in massa.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 30 Oct 2009 11:36

I thought I will dig up open source statistics if any for these Kota-bummers' lack of enthu for post-grad edu. CS again takes the lead, they have posted some useful info.
What are the options for a B.Tech student after completing his degree and what is the current trend among students ?

A student can opt to work for a core company after his undergraduate program. These typically include but not limited to Micorsoft, Yahoo, Google, Amazon, Oracle etc. Selection procedure for any company is through campus interview. In the last two years about ?? % of our students have taken up job assignments in core companies. Recently investment banking companies have been actively seeking students of computer science. These typically include Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley, Tower Research Capital etc. In the last two years about 10% of our students have taken up assignments in investment banks.

To go abroad for an M.S. or a Ph.D is another major option. In general students of IIT stand a better chance for an admission into a good Ph.D program when compared to the rest of the crowd. In the last two years, roughly 33% of our students have gone abroad for higher studies. Also, several students have joined for the MBA program at IIMs or elsewhere.

What are the placement statistics?
Approximately, they are as follows (in percentage):
Core companies (but more or less software development): B.Tech.:73; Dual:73; M.Tech.:74
Analytics/finance: B.Tech.:15; Dual:18; M.Tech.:3
Operations research: B.Tech.:8; Dual:98
VLSI: M.Tech.:17
Consultancy: B.Tech.:3
Networks: M.Tech.:17

http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/misc/faq.php#3.4b
B.tech % adds to 99, so I guess this is normalized for those who take up jobs right after B.tech. Dual and Mattak dont add up, so I assume these numbers are normalized for sub-categories and specializations. You see, 3/4 of the CS folks go to sw development, reveals less as CS is theory + automata + sw. But if the 3/4 trend holds true for other branches also, then we have a serious issue on the cards.

And this is STILL the "top" branch as per hawa-maal despite stringent competishun from the EE-waalon. If 33% at the top hawas, imagine the desperation cries at CE, Ch, ME, MT, NA, etc. Let me dig more to see if I can pull some yearly trends, they may reveal more than my hot-air.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 30 Oct 2009 11:45

Some more descriptive stuff, not deep statistics per se, from 2006. But one number pops up, overall 20% go abroad for higher ed. A pie chart shows 45% get employed in sw, 21% in consulting (!), 5% in finance, 28% in core engg firms (I assume), the 1% in FMCG is seriously amusing. Wtf are IIT people doing in FMCG, is it statistics/survey design, if not should nt that be core engg?

Written by mama, of course :P
http://www.iitmadras.org/corner/2006/placement/
Q: How have the placements been this year? Which companies have come to campus? By how much has the average package offered increased?

This year, placement has been much better than that in the past. The total number of offers made last year was overtaken within the first 3 months.

Q: Is there any change in the number of students being placed in management and consultancy firms, core engineering firms, and IT firms this year?

There is a marked increase in the number of finance and consultancy companies coming to the campus.

Q: How many students are likely to take up their campus offers? Has there been any change in the number of students opting for higher education, either abroad or at the IIMs? What trend do you foresee for the coming years?

This year, about 20% of the students are going abroad. This might decrease further as employment and research in India emerge as attractive career options.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vina » 30 Oct 2009 11:51

Written by mama, of course


WOW! . Mama still around ?. Not retired yet ?. Amazing. He was quite oldish even back then ! . Still dressesthe same way I suppose, dhoti and that big Naamam ?.

Sad to hear that Dileep Veeraraghavan passed away. I got the alumni mail on that.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vina » 30 Oct 2009 11:54

Stan_Savljevic wrote:This year, about 20% of the students are going abroad. This might decrease further as employment and research in India emerge as attractive career options.


That is very very sad indeed. I think the current crop are making a big mistake. I think EVERY IITian should go abroad, look at the wider world, experience a large part of life, have a richer experience (ahem.. and that includes wimmins in general and furrin) and then maybe come back and contribute as more all rounded individuals with lot richer connections, experience and capital .

The present route sounds more like "All inbred Kota" being carried over to general life.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 30 Oct 2009 12:04

vina wrote:WOW! . Mama still around ?. Not retired yet ?. Amazing. He was quite oldish even back then ! . Still dressesthe same way I suppose, dhoti and that big Naamam?

They have a scarcity for people and tons of openings, so the retirement age keeps sliding upward. Officially, you cant be employed after a certain age, but they get hired on contracts year after year. At least in IITM, it is not so bad for re-hiring on contracts, it is terrible in K and G. Some even go on deputation to W and enjoy the foothills of the Himalayas for a year or two. He is higher up the hierarchy now, dean-something and HoD types, if not officially retired already.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2009 13:08

Vina saar, the last thing this nation needs is more itvity managers r2ing already as managers or with the gleam in their eye to be managers.
in other fields they never come back - as good as gone.

it seems kanpur iit has banned the most revered search co after some arrogant incidents. like taking 5 rounds of interviews, coding tests and then calling for marksheets. apparently two of them who had C in some random course were then eliminated.

good riddance to the clowns. hope they never let them back in.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 30 Oct 2009 13:29

Singha wrote:Vina saar, the last thing this nation needs is more itvity managers r2ing already as managers or with the gleam in their eye to be managers.
in other fields they never come back - as good as gone.

Rightly said, if at least 50% of the folks who specialize in engg from the "premier ug" institutes cant do engg, say 10 years from the date of graduation, then that premier institute is as good as dead. We need more engineers, both theoretical as well as hands-on-people. And unfortunately with gazillion engg institutions in the country, we still have a humongous shortage for engineers. So the problems are not just with the iits, it is a reflection of the society at large. IITs only reflect the society from which students come, albeit in a massively obvious manner to a layman who has seen the trends.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vina » 30 Oct 2009 14:01

Singha wrote:Vina saar, the last thing this nation needs is more itvity managers r2ing already as managers or with the gleam in their eye to be managers.
in other fields they never come back - as good as gone.

I think that is probably a misread and a pessimistic one. itvity is ahead of the curve and hence it is attracting the bulk of the R2i types. The other fields are picking up ,with Indian industry maturing. With oil and gas and energy opening up and more entrants entering, a lot of folks in that area are coming back in all kinds of positions, right from executives to researches in newly opened centers of Shell, BP etc. I would wager the same with auto industry. Drug and life sciences too, the hot opportunities especially in traditional chemistry based stuff seems to be lot more in India now with Massa supersaturated and lot more R&D work getting done out of India.

I think it is a function of industry opening up and space existing for new opportunities. The other fields are experiencing talent flow back. As more R&D gets moved into India, more of the folks from other fields will move back. The recent economic crisis interrupted that trend by around 3 to 4 years. But over the medium to long term it is unavoidable.

Hopefully many of the R2I types then will break off, start companies of their own which are innovation /R&D based (the economy needs to open more for that) that tap into growing opportunities in India as a base for global R&D and highly engineered products and an entire ecosystem including venture and angels and all the rest of it are in place.


it seems kanpur iit has banned the most revered search co after some arrogant incidents. like taking 5 rounds of interviews, coding tests and then calling for marksheets. apparently two of them who had C in some random course were then eliminated.


:rotfl: Seems like they deserve it. But on this topic , the "revered company's" R&D division in Bangalore was set up by a Madrassa graduate whom I knew long ago . He used to call himself as Bharat Krishna Shankar back then, but now goes around as Krishna Bharat. I guess that is the kind of highly mobile people who can make step changes in terms of capability and expertise across fields that you want.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 30 Oct 2009 22:11

vina economitus wrote:I think it is a function of industry opening up and space existing for new opportunities. The other fields are experiencing talent flow back. As more R&D gets moved into India, more of the folks from other fields will move back. The recent economic crisis interrupted that trend by around 3 to 4 years. But over the medium to long term it is unavoidable.

This is true and definitely picking up. RnD folks (and not just the aam abdul but the stars) who till a few years back would be stuck in TJ Watson or Si Valley centers are now R2Iing and either joining or setting up research facilities in India. Look at the roster of MSR Bengaluru. This is essential to bring about the radical turnaround in Indian ITvity industry where it can transform from being a backoffice of the world to actually designing, developing and marketing new technologies of its own. I see a similar but smaller trend in folks from O&G and Biotech which suits me fine since GHQ is Biotech ayesha :mrgreen: .

vina economitus wrote:Hopefully many of the R2I types then will break off, start companies of their own which are innovation /R&D based (the economy needs to open more for that) that tap into growing opportunities in India as a base for global R&D and highly engineered products and an entire ecosystem including venture and angels and all the rest of it are in place.

Why does bolded part sound like strategee portion of power point :twisted: :mrgreen: (runs away and hides behind Mehta ji's talati).

Singha maximus wrote:it seems kanpur iit has banned the most revered search co after some arrogant incidents. like taking 5 rounds of interviews, coding tests and then calling for marksheets. apparently two of them who had C in some random course were then eliminated.

Well deserved boot to arrogance (other cos such as VMware have been guilty of such practices too. Mickey$ used to be big-time guilty of this) :twisted: . In the end it is still a ITvity company and the folks they are hiring are going to be doing the same technical work as other abduls in lesser chi-chi companies - its not as if they need "special" skills to work at this co despite all claims to such. I gave a piece of my mind re. this to son of ksh's father last year when he tried to go hoity-toity on his co's "talent acquisition practices" and how even top Pee Yech Dees are flocking to most revered search co. to simply be coders (told him it has less to do with quality of daily work - which is a grind as usualbut more to do with making a bit of stock moolah, free perks (which keep you in the office though) and some brand chi-chi-ness).

vina economitus wrote: :rotfl: Seems like they deserve it. But on this topic , the "revered company's" R&D division in Bangalore was set up by a Madrassa graduate whom I knew long ago . He used to call himself as Bharat Krishna Shankar back then, but now goes around as Krishna Bharat. I guess that is the kind of highly mobile people who can make step changes in terms of capability and expertise across fields that you want.


Ah, so you went to madrassa with Krishna Bharat - he is the most revered search co's News fella. Like many he switched over from DEC Research Palo Alto to present co during revered search co's early days (thus reaping the moolah too). Some of the other ex-DEC guys are responsible for contributions like MapReduce, BigTable etc. which are part of most revered search co's cloud workhorse.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 30 Oct 2009 22:20

Singha wrote:it seems kanpur iit has banned the most revered search co after some arrogant incidents. like taking 5 rounds of interviews, coding tests and then calling for marksheets. apparently two of them who had C in some random course were then eliminated.

good riddance to the clowns. hope they never let them back in.


the search company is looking for coders, so why do the IITians take offence if someone conducts 4-5 rounds of interviews? That is the norm in other companies too. In other engineering colleges too, when companies come for campus interviews, they typically have a cut-off percentage, and then have written test and couple of interviews at least, with some having GD too. Does IITians feel it is below their dignity to take that many interviews or is it something else? While I agree that calling of marksheets ( some companies require from 10th standard onwards) is absurd and has no bearing to the ability of the candidate, why should coding tests and other interviews be dismissed? Or am I missing something here?

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 30 Oct 2009 23:33

^^^ I think the marksheets was the issue, not the #n rounds of interview or tests.

I never understood how marksheets from class 10 and 12 are a reliable indicator of one's professional ability - seems to be another version of the desi obsession with exams.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 30 Oct 2009 23:33

Irony is most of the times interviewer is an alumnus . :)

Ok on a serious note these things are a norm in fact more of ego tussles every college or institute as per its clout once in a while blacklists an organization , sometimes companies too refuse to turn up at the last moment when they come to know that a rival org had already swept most of the cream from CS/EE batch . :lol:

Placement departments across colleges are known to lure blue chip companies by promising them the first available slot during the placement season which obviously go to one such org depending on alumni network and the package being offered . :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 30 Oct 2009 23:51

rumour has it that one IT company (one of the big three, forgot which) refused to come to shibpur BE college because the placement officer there had offered the afsars from the IT company tea in baked clay glasses ! :rotfl:
this in case people didn't understand.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 31 Oct 2009 00:02

vina wrote:Hmm. Mandak aye, so you actually spent your time in a B.Tech hostel. No wonder you seem to know such a lot about the B.Techs and typical B.Tech "secrets". Did you get friendly with the B.Techs? I think it must have been fun if you did.. The typical experience would be like Muttuks and B.Techs paths just glide past each other like ice floes. Muttucks typically hated living in B.Tech hostels . For Muttucks, B.Techs were literally an alien race (immature, speaking in Inglees, Bidesh focused and ultra uppity, largely from middle to upper middle class), while for B.Techs, Muttucks were boring dorks ...

We MSc types were in between the warring factions. Age wise being 20yr olds were in the BTech category as far as maturity went, unlike MTech mamas of those times who looked all 30+. :mrgreen: We got all along well with the BTech crowd. In fact my next door neighbour was none other than the gen sec...so got to know all the juicy details of the inner workings. If you were there in the madrassa around that time you will know who I am referring to. We had a bunch of mech , metallurgy, aero and naval arch guys close to our age group. There were also the newbies or freshies as they were known then, mostly from CS and EE. Some of those CS freshies came handy during the 'apping' days to fill up the pre-apps. :twisted: Also there were a few EE guys who probably had a branch change after their first year there. One from that lot is back at IISc. So overall came to know the dynamics of the BTech 4 yr life cycle.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 31 Oct 2009 01:15

:(( :(( .. So that is the real takleef aye ? Surely Muttuks can compile their own QBies in their own hostels cant they ? After all, they are competing with the B.Techs in applying for the same Pacchadi (my god Bade Saar, you do remember the lingo. I havent heard that particular word in the better part of over two decades!) in same univs . So equal equal onree no ?. Is it the fault of the B.Techs that they are more organized and co-ordinated and single minded (like an army of ants) in going for the kill?


No saar you misunderstood, the usual suspects from EE who applied for Fizziks grad school comprised the few geniuses and a lot of average guys who got RG'd by their fellow EE classmates to the top schools. So this was their back door entry to the CMUs, Karnells and the like. To duly changeover to materials science and other inter-disciplinary Pachaddis after landing in massa.

From our batch and the ones before us and the next that I kept track of, only 3-4 per batch of 20 or less, ventured out for massa route, rest went to DRDO, BARC and quite a few to do MTech in CS and Materials Science at IITs and later duly landed in massa or singapore after 3 semesters.

The envy of all were the MSc chemistry guys and gals, who coolly landed fat scholarships at Princeton and CalTech year after year. Fizziks guys had to be happy with UVa, Penn, Austin, Rochester, Cornell, TIFR and UC campuses onlee. One or two of the genius crowd from EE did make it to MIT/Columbia. Rest went to places like Rice, UMd-College park etc. We even had a CS guy cross-over to Fizziks who is back in Kanpur is what I hear.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Bade » 31 Oct 2009 01:55

Rahul M wrote:rumour has it that one IT company (one of the big three, forgot which) refused to come to shibpur BE college because the placement officer there had offered the afsars from the IT company tea in baked clay glasses ! :rotfl:
this in case people didn't understand.

Cha and luchi was my only regular lunch at the canteen during JU days. Cha was served in that clay cup even there. I think it was quite common everywhere in those days. On way to Cal from Madras, once you cross Khurda road you get 'cha' only in these contraptions.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 31 Oct 2009 04:04

I am sure those TFTAs wouldn't mind spending fat money at Starbucks sipping Chai Latte in 'authentic retro Indian clay cups' which infuse a smooth earthen taste into the blend. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby negi » 31 Oct 2009 04:50

In Kolkata even uppity places serve tea in 'Kulhads' (Clay pots)

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vina » 31 Oct 2009 05:58

No saar you misunderstood, the usual suspects from EE who applied for Fizziks grad school comprised the few geniuses and a lot of average guys who got RG'd by their fellow EE classmates to the top schools. So this was their back door entry to the CMUs, Karnells and the like. To duly changeover to materials science and other inter-disciplinary Pachaddis after landing in massa


Bade Saar. That "apping" for Fyzzicks, esp interdisciplinary ones like Material Sciences was done by a lot of folks who were committed. A lot of folks from multiple branches (Mech, Chem, Metallurgy, all folks who did structural engg courses etc etc) all "apped" into Material Science /Fyzzics cross over. Yeah, the EE folks were focused on devices /semiconductors most probably than most who were into the other parts of material sciences. I think many of those guys who went that route are probably still there.

For eg, one of my cousins, who again went to the Madrassa and graduated a few years before me (his was the last batch where you could enter the Madrassa in the 11th std and the B.Tech was 5 years) went to Massa, finally ended up doing his Pacchadi in Fyzzics in one of those Chi-Chi places you talked about and is now a Sr Device Engg at Massa at one of the 3 or 4 large companies in Massa that still have R&D in fundamental devices. He didnt app into Fyzzicks directly from undergrad , but rather went for a masters in Material Science ,worked for a few years in a solar cell company and then went on to do a Pachadi.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 31 Oct 2009 07:44

^^^ Hmm....your cousin doesn't have a sister named Yamini does he?

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 31 Oct 2009 08:30

marksheets were the issue. the two guys elimiated had got C in some course during their bt/mt.

I also got a C in networking and C in OS , guess I need not even look towards the most revered search co :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Raja Bose » 31 Oct 2009 10:14

Singha wrote:marksheets were the issue. the two guys elimiated had got C in some course during their bt/mt.

I also got a C in networking and C in OS , guess I need not even look towards the most revered search co :mrgreen:


Atleast you took a networking class - I have never taken a networking class or programming language class in my life. I have however taken 1 OS class. I have also taken a movie appreciation class (best PYT cluster in town) - does that count for most revered search co.? :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Hari Seldon » 31 Oct 2009 12:45

US universities 'extremely interested' to come to India, says Kapil Sibal

No wonder they are interested. Better to get in now and prevent the emergence of a emerging world challenger to the Ivys, perhaps?

In any case, the writing is on the wall, horen student outflow from the emerging world will slow in the coming yrs as the emerged mkts slow and hiring takes a backseat across theboard.

The real and assumed ROI of higher edu then takes the hot seat. Better to open large univ campuses here to serve the emerging world student mkt, I guess.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 01 Nov 2009 01:15

Jeehard is winning.... :P
Revision of the Scheme of National Research Professorship

The Union Cabinet today approved the proposal of the Ministry of Human Resource Development for revision of rates of honorarium, pension and contingency allowances under the Scheme of National Research Professorship with effect from 1.4.2009.

The revised rates are as follows :

(i) Rate of monthly honorarium for serving National Research Professors has been enhanced from Rs.25,000 to Rs.75,000 with effect from 1.4.2009;
(ii) Rate of monthly pension for Pensioners enhanced from Rs.9,000 to Rs.25,000 with effect from 1.4.2009;
(iii) Rate of annual contingency grant for serving National Research Professors has been enhanced from Rs.50,000 to 1,00,000 with effect from 1.4.2009;
(iv) Honorarium and pension will continue to be exempt from Income Tax under Section 10(17A) of the Income Tax Act, 1961.

Background :

Government of India had instituted the Scheme of National Research Professorship in 1949, to honour distinguished academics and scholars in recognition of their contribution to knowledge. Persons of real eminence who have attained the age of 65 years and who have made outstanding contribution in their respective fields and are still capable of productive research, are considered for appointment as National Research Professors. The appointment is made initially for a period of 5 years which is extendable by another term of five years. After completion of first term or the extended second term, a NRP is entitled to a life pension.

In 1949, the rate of honorarium was Rs.2500 per month. The rates of honorarium and pension have been revised from time to time and at the time of last revision in 1998-99, the rate of honorarium was Rs.25,000 per month, the rate of pension was Rs.9,000 per month. The contingency grant was Rs.50,000/- per annum. Considering the rate of inflation and in view of the erosion of rupee value, the rates of honorarium/pension/contingency grant need upward revision.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=53708

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 02 Nov 2009 02:32

It is tough to find talent for top science jobs: C.N.R. Rao
‘There is no shortage of funds for research’
The country is facing shortage of talented people to head prestigious scientific institutions, C.N.R Rao, National Research Professor and Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Council to the Prime Minister, said here on Sunday. “There is a shortage of talent. We are hardly finding any (suitable) candidates. Institutions such as The Indian Institute of Science need people from the science and engineering streams. I have been asked by the Prime Minister to suggest suitable persons for institutions, including Atomic Energy Commission,” said Prof. Rao, and cited the example of the Union Government scouting for a successor to Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar.

Prof. Rao voiced this concern at the launch of a book, Chronicle of a Navaratna: The BEL Story, by C.R. Subramanian, former Chairman and Managing Director, Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL). There was no shortage of funds for research in science and technology. “What we are facing is difficulty in finding talent. We want to build nuclear reactors, but who is going to do that? There is shortage (of those who want to pursue the field),” he said. V.K. Aatre, former Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and former Chief Controller of Defence Research and Development Organisation, said despite such problems, institutions suchas the DRDO have made significant progress.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/02/stories ... 290400.htm

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vera_k » 02 Nov 2009 05:25

^^^

Good. Hopefully, the socialist system in place today breaks down to be replaced by a more meritocratic system. Hard to see how there can be another outcome when the government does its best to subvert market forces.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 03 Nov 2009 02:26

More money flows in, will there be enough takers though?!
Science graduates to be paid to stay in class
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 190812.cms

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby samuel » 03 Nov 2009 06:31

On the subject of "getting more phds" etc....

If one really thinks of it, the MS over a BS is really a joke. For example, there is little one actually comes up with even in a 30-page paper double-spaced thesis. One-inch on all sides, three pages for references, three for intro, four for related work, five for "theory," three for conclusions and "discussion," and three pages taken up in figures, and one in equations leaves little. Thank goodness, we ask people to just "link" their code, instead of printing it out with the report now. The PhD is another slightly larger joke. Just think about it. You have typically 3 years on top of the first one or two you've wasted, so it isn't until the last year that you are actually doing something. You spend some time passing "qualifiers" and "rqes" and such like, that's one year. You get into a research group and project, that's another. Finally, you hack something together and, looking for post-doc or faculty. If you are really good, you'll have hammered journals each year, if not, one in the last year. Oh, there are some, who've stayed for years and say why leave, learning and publishing like crazy, they don't count. They become those gurus everyone is scared of. Some want to leave in a year. They too everyone is scared off, for being associated with. They also don't count.

Now, when you finally get an academic tenure after all the mudslinging, politiking, shining and whining, you say, well, now I'd really like to learn my subject and that's when it really begins. I mean the love, the passion, the joy of doing it all comes flooding in -- I am generalizing -- but that seems to be largely true. But now you have spent about 10 years in the field and you have another 10 left may be at 70% efficiency before you look "elderly."

So, first four years learning funda, one year wastage, two years learning again, one year slogging, two years slaving, six years sweating, and back to funda again. India can dramatically leap frog this process by looking at the "research and discovery" process in a different light.

Let's say
1. Towards the end of your BTEch, you have to come up with a project. If it's the normal idea, you go to IIM, Wipro or something. If it is a cool idea, you are given a scholarship to stay. That scholarship by itself will last two years. Course work is up to you and you can create your peer group. If you join a research group, you can stretch this funding to four (two plus two).

2. You publish three to four papers in journals considered to be important in your field and then you are done. Just staple all papers call yourself Dr. If you are done in two itself, you get another two years of scholarship to do follow-on work, which really is money to go tell the world about yourself and find a job. The system thinks you are a star and will try to place you as faculty in the country on a priority basis.

3. If you took four years to complete by doing two scholarship+two research group, then you might have really good luck becoming a post-doc somewhere or joining industrial research groups or something similar.

4. You could also take four years to complete by two scholarship+two sponsorship from anyone. Then go make connections that way.

After four, if you haven't reached the publication mark, the system starts to squeeze you out.

5. Irrespectively, after four journal publications, you become "Dr." and you get the authority to become investigator on grants, awarded through the usual peer review process. You can carry on with your work, individually, with someone, as faculty or as an independent researcher, part time or fulltime. As you proceed, the govt will measure the "return on investment" and uses that to rate you in your career. Return on investment is tbd.

6. The govt. secures the two year funding for 25-30% of undergrads, and 30% of those for another two. It creates a large seed funding program (small grants many) to account for the three to five years after the first four. And it creates a secondary layer of fewer, but larger grants to create momentum. Finally, it works with industry to create "mega-joint-research ventures" that become the "production factories" for "highly trained" workforce.

OK, back to real work.
JMT
S

Umrao Das
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Umrao Das » 03 Nov 2009 09:18

In between we had poor mans Pachhadi called MPhil or mehfill.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby animesharma » 03 Nov 2009 10:31

Stan_Savljevic wrote:More money flows in, will there be enough takers though?!
Science graduates to be paid to stay in class
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 190812.cms


IMO this is wrong approach. there is little science grads in masters or doctorate level as there is little market for them. And one generally don't do masters with a hope to get a gov. job.
Gov should also work to create market need for science post graduates.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Rahul M » 03 Nov 2009 20:33

Stan_Savljevic wrote:More money flows in, will there be enough takers though?!
Science graduates to be paid to stay in class
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 190812.cms

hare brained idea. it will be used by the influential ones to get cheap labour for their grunt level work.

also, the very people who are lamenting the lack of talent in science (earlier article) were singularly responsible for stalling the increase in stipend for JRF/SRF for 5 odd years. the reason given was, the rumour-mill has it, it would take the student's focus away from research. (reminds people of the AC in arjun tank story and a certain general's comment ?)
why would capable people who can ace the various JEEs come to basic science only to get a monthly stipend of 8000/- after 5 years of education when even their most ordinary and unmotivated batchmates from school start with ~ 20,000 p.m through engineering after 4 years of education ?
sure, some do make the sacrifice but most don't.

btw, we can expect that the current JRF/SRF (12,000/14,000 p.m) slab will be maintained till 2015 when entry level engn salaries would touch 35-40k.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby SSridhar » 05 Nov 2009 16:42

Indian students can appear in international test in 2012
Come 2012, school students from India will be able to gauge their level of scholastic performance compared to their global counterparts.

India for the first time will participate in Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a triennial world-wide test for 15-year-old school children being held by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

National Council for Educational Research and Training (NCERT), which is the nodal agency for conducting the test, has decided to carry out a pilot test in the pattern of PISA in Himachal Pradesh and Tamil Nadu this year.

"We will conduct a pilot test this year. This will help us in conducting PISA in 2012," a senior NCERT official said.

The questions will be of PISA standards in the pilot test and will assess the competence of students in reading, science and mathematics. This will be a text free exam in which questions on the related subjects will be asked, he said.

"By this test, our school children can know where they stand in the world with regard to performance," Singh said.

shaardula
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby shaardula » 06 Nov 2009 01:03

not directly to indian education. but i thought this was very interesting

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... -lives.htm
Already, the most fragile, unquestionably, in the book is the bardic tradition of Pabuji -- threatened by literacy itself.

One of the amazing things that emerged in that story is that oral tradition flourishes in minds which are illiterate. The literate do not have the capacity to remember what the illiterate do.

What Komal Kothari (the well-known Indian anthropologist and folklorist) found (while studying Rajasthani folklore of the Langas or Rajasthani bards) that (he decided) 'instead of taking all the stuff down why don't I send (one of the) Langas to adult literacy class and let him write it all down.'

And one of the things he (Kothari) noticed was that (after the literacy classes) when the Langa performed he would check his notes. The very same man who had known the stuff (thousands of songs) by heart began to forget them as he became literate.

So that (the bardic tradition) I would say is the more fragile tradition.


i have found this to be true in my case. surprisingly these days it is increasingly ok if you dont know the details. lot of people only want to hear bullets.

anywho, bose said:
Despite all braggings of the size and comprehensiveness of Eye Eye Tea question banks, I don't think they will ever approach the likes of the massive series of equally massive tomes passed down the generations of chini and korean talibs coming to study in massa.


AoA!!

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 06 Nov 2009 06:32

korea takes the 'kota system' and refines it to a harsher extent, almost like a jihadi training camp @ tarnak farms. you are curled up in your blanket at 5am....and then bam, some tough 'drill sergeants' are on you to get up, wash and report for duty in 20 mins sharp, lots of physical SF style training... 8)

whoever makes it alive through these cram schools in korea and japan are said to hang back
and enjoy their student life in the elite univs - like playing tennis and chatting up the ladies.
but a job in a top MNC is almost assured if you do modestly well. earlier it used to be lifelong job, maybe not anymore.

the reaction to this uber-culture has been a clique of 'slackers' in japan who reject the work-yourself-till-death more and just take temp jobs, try to keep normal hours....have a life.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby SriniY » 06 Nov 2009 10:59

samuel wrote:On the subject of "getting more phds" etc..
If one really thinks of it, the MS over a BS is really a joke. For example, there is little one actually comes up with even in a 30-page paper double-spaced thesis. One-inch on all sides, three pages for references, three for intro, four for related work, five for "theory," three for conclusions and "discussion," and three pages taken up in figures, and one in equations leaves little. Thank goodness, we ask people to just "link" their code, instead of printing it out with the report now. The PhD is another slightly larger joke. Just think about it. You have typically 3 years on top of the first one or two you've wasted, so it isn't until the last year that you are actually doing something. You spend some time passing "qualifiers" and "rqes" and such like, that's one year. You get into a research group and project, that's another. Finally, you hack something together and, looking for post-doc or faculty. If you are really good, you'll have hammered journals each year, if not, one in the last year. Oh, there are some, who've stayed for years and say why leave, learning and publishing like crazy, they don't count. They become those gurus everyone is scared of. Some want to leave in a year. They too everyone is scared off, for being associated ..
with. They also don't count.

Now, when you finally get an academic tenure after all the mudslinging, politiking, shining and whining, you say, well, now I'd really like to learn my subject and that's when it really begins. I mean the love, the passion, the joy of doing it all comes flooding in -- I am generalizing -- but that seems to be largely true. But now you have spent about 10 years in the field and you have another 10 left may be at 70% efficiency before you look "elderly."

So, first four years learning funda, one year wastage, two years learning again, one year slogging, two years slaving, six years sweating, and back to funda again. India can dramatically leap frog this process by looking at the "research and discovery" process in a different light.

S


samuel garu,

You should think about it a little more yourself. I am not sure where you get this idea of a masters or a phd but I can tell you, in most cases it is not the way you have written it to be.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby samuel » 06 Nov 2009 19:52

SriniYji,
All I can say is "from what I've observed"... I've been in academia all my life though that does not mean I've paid any attention to it :)
Please give another view, if possible. I'd be delighted to read it.
The essential suggestions are: sift stars early, steer people to original work from the get go, and force them to stand on the strength of their ideas (not their advisors or some one else's copied).
I can send you thesis after thesis where this is violated. But the idea is also to give them the support so that they can venture out independently and make a few mistakes, and then, later,
have the opportunity to benefit handsomely from their good contributions.

In another sense, most researchers I've come across seem to appreciate and venture into broader learning later in life, while most early on ask "why must i study it." And that
inversion appears all right to me after some preliminaries, which can be easily sorted out within 3 years in most subjects. Then you let the person
come up with something, and take it from there. You might start by studying just a part of engineering but eventually the oneness becomes clear. But to get there, resonance with that first problem and a depth of contemplation is necessary. That is exactly what is hindered when you get people to stuff courses and other targets on a conveyor belt to a degree. Where's the time? I have in fact prepared a fairly extensive "flow chart" but I would like to read an alternative vision, which would be immensely useful to a biased view like mine.

There are of course some who like to remain uncommitted for a while and keep learning. These exemplars of self-motivation on autopilot to wisdom are not the norm and they need not be disturbed. My scheme, not yet published here, does not.

S

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby SriniY » 07 Nov 2009 11:10

There are two ways in which you could get a masters in India as far as I know. In the first, after your BS/BTech
you could join a masters program typically for two years. The first one year would be course work in most cases.
Students get to choose two options here. You could do some more course work and a project for a semester which
is more like a case study or design of something or working on very small problem which your advisor has or
things like that. Your summarize your work as a short report and you get an MTech. The other way is to pick
an advisor and start working on a problem of mutual interest with the problem description typically coming from
the advisor. Then once you some concrete results on this problem, you most likely will have a publication and
this will be your thesis and you get a MS degree.

Most students will opt for an MTech degree which is the easier way out; it being time bound and not result oriented.
If the 30 page thing you refer to is this, then I agree with you, most of them are not worth the ink they are printed
with. But a MS thesis involve much more work and by the end of your work, you/your advisor should be confident that you
have a good knowledge of your discipline and have contributed something to it. There will be a defence for a masters
thesis as well and as long as your committee is reasonably knowledgeable ( this is no guarantee - but this reflects on the
quality of teachers and researchers - this for another time ), you can be assured that only a good thesis is approved.

The Phd is no joke, not in most cases. It is a commitment for 5-6 years of the most productive and energetic years of
your life and most people will not do it unless and until they are absolutely sure they want it. In India, as far as my
knowledge goes ( I may be wrong here because I havenot seen much of this, me still being a student ) there is no big
advantage that a PhD gets you and a masters with 3-4 years of experience will not, that will need to invest 3-4 more
years of your life in it.

There is a qualifying exam that one must take typically after 2 years ( enuf to get you out with an MTech/MS ) that will
test whether you have learnt the breadth of your subject and can start serious research. These 2 years will be a lot of course
work for most students. This is to ensure that if you become a faculty you know atleast enough about each subject are that
you can teach it, atleast that is one of the intentions of the exam. You probably need a month, max 2, to prepare for this
and not the year that you believe. A Phd must fall in love with his subject, there are very few who can take that strain by
not liking what they do, for that long a time and for the poor financial return it gives right now. And in your phd you are
trained to work independently, to work in a group, you mentor younger students, learn write grants for money, to learn to market
yourself with presentation skills and of course do good research. All these are part and parcel of the phd process. The passion
for the subject must come during your phd itself, otherwise it will be really difficult to finish it. Most of the time there
is a compromise between funding requirements, what you want to do and what your advisor wants you to do and people take up
post docs when they believe they have a good sense of what they really want to do. Of course, this would be a good precursor
to become a faculty member as well.

Now, to your proposal

If you can come up with a cool idea for a BTech, companies will lap you up. This is more than the scholarship you would get
and there is no financial benefit to continue. Course work is essential and most will realize that having a broad knowledge
helps a lot later. I am not saying that course work be crammed in this two years. Most people keep taking classes for a good
3-4 years, sometimes to have a diversion from monotonous research and sometimes because the class is useful or interesting.

Measuring return on investment is not a simple as you suggest it to be. Firstly, if the govt is measuring a return on investment
faculty will do the same thing as well from their point of view. And you will agree with me that the opportunity cost of being
a faculty member is larger, the better the researcher you are. Then there is the big question of how this RoI is measured.

If the aim of the government is to have a highly trained work force, they must first ensure that after being highly trained
these people will find something to do. The quality of the work force will raise to the challenge when there are big
challenges to be faced. It may take a little time and some projects may suffer, but it should be need based. The govt should
first decide why they need this work force and fund that and the work force will come automatically.

I think the sift early approach would only lead to poaching. Most research is application driven and once the govt gives
money for the application, demands something and sticks to it without compromise, the resulting research will match up to this.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2009 11:27

>> But a MS thesis involve much more work

brother, why are your statements not true of MS in Massa as well? infact
in most Massa univs I believe there is an option not to do any thesis work
at all, but just do the required credit courses - an option that obviously
suits the time bound and exam passing skills/needs of the indo-chinese community quite well :mrgreen:

atleast in IIT-K a decade ago there was no option to get all your Mtech
credits via a thesis only. thesis had 8 points in 2nd sem and all 16 points in 3rd sem for a total=12.

1st sem - 4 CS/EE600 level courses - 16 pts
2nd sem - 2 courses (8 points), thesis start (8 points)
3rd sem - 0 courses, thesis completion (16 pts)
total = 48 pts minimum needed to pass. a couple of courses had 6 points, those who took got 50 pts in the end.

some guides might defer the 8 pts in 2nd sem to end of 3rd sem and
award in bulk (had the student rather worried though)

ofcourse one could audit any course based on interest, spare seats available and time factor.


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