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Indian Education System

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Zynda » 10 Aug 2017 16:06

This is a very long article but I found it fascinating...this is what is required in desh...inculcating product development idea in to students right from high-school level and use professional courses like BE/BTech to enhance those concepts with sound engineering principles.

The Kids Are Alright—Solid Edge in Academics

As a CAD manager, one of my main responsibilities is hiring. I know firsthand how hard it is to find good experienced candidates as well as qualified entry-level applicants just coming out of school and entering the workforce for the first time. It’s important that entry-level candidates not only have a good understanding of the CAD software we use, but also that they understand how a business operates and how project workflows are handled. The future of business in all industries will be directly affected by the youth in today’s educational system. The more the educational system can do to prepare students to be able to “hit the ground running,” the more of a positive impact it will have on the business industry and, ultimately, the students’ careers as well. The first step in accomplishing this goal is to have talented and driven teachers who are willing to go the extra mile and do what it takes to ensure that their students are prepared for what’s ahead. For this article, I was lucky enough to interview one such teacher.

STEM in the classroom

Rachael Simons has been a teacher at Sparkman High School in Huntsville, Ala., for the past 11 years. She teaches approximately 2,000 students in grades 10-12. Among other things, Simons teaches her students competitive STEM using Solid Edge. Her students have been involved in projects such as BEST Robotics, MATE ROV and Greenpower.

Simons’ decision to teach came at an early age. Her grandmother and mother were both teachers. As a child, she played school with kids her mom watched during the summer, and she would frequently ask her mother and grandmother to help grade papers. She started her career at Sparkman High School, teaching Geometry A and B classes to at-risk students. The students she taught had difficulty seeing the relevance of what she was teaching them and why it was important.

A New Method Utilizing Solid Edge

Simons, not one to be afraid of a good challenge, chose to revise the way she was teaching by incorporating technology activities and hands-on learning, even though the technical support and funding were not necessarily available at the time. She purchased a Verizon MiFi, brought in her own laptop, and purchased any necessary supplies out of her own pocket. She then spent the summer taking college courses in computer science and finding as many workshops and conferences that she could attend to learn the new skills she would need to teach with her revised methods.

“If you are just giving them something to read and then problems to solve, even after you’ve shown them how to do similar problems, they don’t translate those similarities. They don’t understand ‘well this is like this, so maybe I can apply that here.’ There’s no relationship that they can bridge a gap to,” she said. “You have to figure out a different way to approach things. That’s why I like Solid Edge. It takes some of those concepts that they are reading about in the textbook and can talk about, and then they can actually utilize them and have a deeper understanding because they’re creating something with those concepts that brings them into a completely different world of learning.”

The results from Simons’ new teaching method were so positive that by her fourth year, she was asked to teach robotics. She was excited to move into this new role, and was even able to acquire some donated laptops to run software as well as some inherited Lego Mindstorms kits to round out the robotics resources. Simons summarized that first year by stating:

“I realized students wanted to be in robotics to play with Legos and not invest in higher-order thinking processes. After further thought, I concluded if robotics education were to continue, creativity needed to be incorporated. Over the summer, I brainstormed about creating a company for students to take ownership in. I choose to compete in the BEST robotics competition to manufacture a robot from raw material specified in a RFP. At the time, another teacher was teaching Solid Edge. One of our common students modeled our robot in SE for the competition. Each year, I strive to broaden my knowledge; therefore, the next summer I registered for a Solid Edge workshop.”

Simons’ continued drive and motivation, coupled with her continued positive results, prompted the school to move her from the Math Department to Career Tech Education where she could focus solely on teaching Engineering and Robotics. Currently, she teaches Foundations of Engineering (FOE), Introduction to Robotics, Robotics Applications, and Project Lead the Way (PLTW) Computer-Integrated Manufacturing (CIM).

In the Foundations of Engineering class, students are required to model all of their unit projects in Solid Edge. Simons explained that there were many driving factors in choosing to utilize Solid Edge—proximity and support being first and foremost. She indicated that Siemens representatives have been critical in working with her when students were in need of support.

“In addition, many of my students travel onsite to Siemens when problems arise that we cannot troubleshoot,” she said. “Many students who take Foundations of Engineering are just exploring the class to see what skills are required for engineers. Most of the students I teach are not AP math students. Synchronous Technology in Solid Edge eliminates ordered limitations. Solid Edge allows students to explore spatial reasoning skills and advanced math geometry in a unique perspective while creating a model of a product they can build or machine in class.”

Simons teaches the basics in Solid Edge and encourages students to broaden their CAD skills through project-based learning. Having 3D printers, CNC routers and CNC machines provides her students with an opportunity to design in CAD and then machine their creations to help them take ownership of their learning. She also teaches her students how to reverse engineer by using calipers to measure parts and then modeling those given parts into Solid Edge.

“Students want the ‘end result’—something tangible,” she said. “They have to see the importance of the learning experience to appreciate learning objectives. In my experience, the ability of students to create custom designs in competitive projects drives them to learn new features and their application.”

Earlier I noted that one of Simons’ initial brainstorming ideas was to create a “company” for students to take ownership in. That company has become known as Spark Industry Robotics, or SIR, as the students like to refer to it. Simons went into more detail about how the company works.

“Students apply for positions in the SIR company we have established. Based on skills acquired in previous courses, prior knowledge or level of motivation to learn a new skill, students form teams in management, programming, design/CAD, electrical, and build and design. All students participate in the brainstorming process and produce sketch options for the design/CAD team to analyze and further develop. Management sets a schedule, the review time line and progress reporting documents. The students in management also follow up on progress, collaborate and report to industry support, and present for financial support,” Simons explained.

She went into detail on how SIR used Solid Edge to prepare for its Greenpower STEM Competition.

“The SIR Design team decided to do a custom body on the Greenpower Electric car kit frame. Despite limited machinery, knowledge of techniques, and finances, the team still chose to create a body in Solid Edge, test in a virtual wind tunnel, flatten the body in Solid Edge, and machine panels on a water jet to then be molded to the frame. Expanded PVC material was used due to the cost and weight of the material. Students used the CAD model to acquire the calculations for the body curvatures. Then, using plywood, measuring tools, foam insulation, HVAC tape, clamps, and heat guns, the students molded the machined body panels to the car frame and manufactured custom mounts to allow for temperature expansion and contraction,” Simons said. {This is amazing...even experienced engineers would struggle to have design conception to production overview}

Conclusion

In talking to Simons about any challenges she’s had implementing Solid Edge into her program, she said the biggest ones have been computers and software updates.

“I have a classroom of laptops that really struggle to adequately run Solid Edge—they are six years old,” she said.

Another obstacle that Simons faces is sharing all the students’ files on Google Drive.

“Sometimes students working on a specific component of a project forget to upload necessary files,” she said. “It would be extremely beneficial to have an assembly population database search feature for inclusive part files with Google team sharing.”

Near the beginning of this article, I stated that step one in helping to prepare tomorrow’s engineering workforce was having talented and driven teachers willing to go the extra mile and do what it takes to prepare students for what’s ahead. Step two is to get the educational administrators and business industry leaders on the same page and communicating with each other. I asked Simons what she thought those two groups could do better to help the cause.

“I think the biggest thing for the industry is to communicate with the administration and counselors who are scheduling classes and provide them with the reasoning as to why this is such a beneficial opportunity for students,” she said. “In turn, the counselors and administrators need to consider how they are scheduling classes and how they’re setting up different courses for the master schedule.”

Siemens has sponsored ENGINEERING.com to write this article. All opinions are mine, except where quoted or stated otherwise. —Jeffrey Heimgartner


Image
Sparkman High School’s 2017 MATE ROV named Sylvia, which was modeled in Solid Edge.

csaurabh
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby csaurabh » 10 Aug 2017 18:56

I really disagree, we don't need people with Solid Edge or other fancy 'CAD skills' . What we need is reverse engineering and technology business development (startups), and lots of it. These startups will need a mix of experienced people and younger, enthusiastic people.

We need companies like Fanuc, ABB, Siemens, Maxon, Lockheed Martin, and about 500 other such hi tech companies (in hardware) and a similar number in software space. I often feel NRIs don't have a clear idea how technologically backward India is..

I will just give a simple example: Soldering Irons.

Locally, I can buy a soldering iron for 250 Rs. It's a piece of crap. The first one broke ( electrically, something inside ) very quickly, and I had to get another one. The tip gets rusted really easily, there's no temperature control, no protection, nothing.

In our lab we have a soldering iron from Weller (made in Germany). It cost 16,000 Rs. but the quality is sky high. It has incredible temperature control, the tip is very rugged and the cables are made out of a material that doesn't melt away if the hot iron touches it.

I've looked around, but I haven't found anything that is between the price range and quality of these two. The explanation is simple- there are no companies like Weller in India. Thus, if you want high quality soldering iron, there's no option but import. This is hardly limited to soldering irons. The same story is repeated just about everywhere.

Now obviously from a business point of view there must be some case for R&D development for high quality soldering iron in India ( does it really cost 16000 Rs? come on ). If students are constantly distracted by 'sexy' things (robot, or whatever ), they have no motivation to go into such domains, such as soldering irons, which are a fundamental building block of a nations industrial base.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Amber G. » 12 Aug 2017 01:44

Some time ago I read Mehrotra's "Fourth IIT" story of IIT Kanpur. Liked it very much. Impressed by vision of Kelker.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 12 Aug 2017 06:17

csaurabh wrote:I really disagree, we don't need people with Solid Edge or other fancy 'CAD skills' . What we need is reverse engineering and technology business development (startups), and lots of it. These startups will need a mix of experienced people and younger, enthusiastic people....


You hit the nail on its head. "CAD skills" would be a six month vocational course, especially so now that SolidWorks gives the license dirt cheap to those who want to become CAD specialists. CAE is a whole another beast though. Multiphysics ups the complexity exponentially.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 12 Aug 2017 08:09

There are plenty of start-up companies in India with quite high level/quality products but they are all focused on the export market. Products meant for export to USA/EU are engineered and designed by folks with very high level skills. I can walk into home depot and tons of products are designed and manufactured in India on every shelf. No where near China but still a surprising amount and good quality and cheap too. Most of these are not available in India itself however. I'n not entirely sure why this is so. Maybe they get better cash from exports or what ever. One day I hope these companies start focusing on quality products within India.

People can correct me but my experience with 'shoddy Indian products' division of the economy is these products are designed by folks who have no business designing these things and they are stamped out and put together by folks who are living hand to mouth with no idea what things like quality control is. If you go to Teynampet in Chennai there are hundreds of these 2 room factories on both banks of the Koovum that make/hand assemble these sorts of products. There is zero quality control and the aim is to stock the thousands of little shops that line the streets. We are not the customer, that shop owner is. And the shop owner only cares that it last for 2 days till the customer forgets which shop he got it from and loses the receipt. End of story.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby csaurabh » 12 Aug 2017 09:00

Theo ji, a lot of time Made in India simply means assembled in India. Screw driver engineering.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Zynda » 12 Aug 2017 12:01

I realize the above article focusses on a particular CAD application (it was a sponsored article BTW), but my take away rather was about learning & inculcating the concept of product design...right from conception to manufacturing. CAD and CAE are just tools to accomplish the above. Also to practise the concept of applying theoretical knowledge in building real products. Most of the people I know in my batch & peers, had very little idea about implementing our theoretical knowledge till a few years in to our professional jobs.

CAD modelling can be picked up easily in a few months but not designing (In India modelling is referred to as design erroneously)...

Probably & hopefully some of the above is being taught to a certain extent in high-end private high schools...the above doesn't have to be in mechanical design...could be extended to electronics or software depending up on the faculty's & school administration's interest levels. At least on Android/mobile apps, it seems like there are some products being created by high-school students...but our industry always complains of education not producing industry ready graduates...stuff like the above goes in small ways of alleviating the issue.

The above article emphasizes a lot on SolidEdge CAD package because it was sponsored by Siemens. BTW, the article is written by a practising industry CAD manager.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 12 Aug 2017 22:57

csaurabh,

No need for the ji saar...

Some of it no doubt is screw driver. But not all. I took apart a electric track lighting product that had a made in India stamp. Very good quality for the price.

- The track extrusion undoubtedly from outside India.
- The light cowling, reflector and plastic trim all had these little made in India stamps. The wiring was all India, very high quality , the LED lamps came from Vietnam.
- The light electronic ballast came from China.
- The Metal stamp pieces undoubtedly India.
- The instruction manual, printed in India, all the spare parts steam shrink wrapped to manual, good quality. There were 6 wire nuts, small screw driver, insulation tape, etc. All made in India.

So the manufacturing exists somewhere but not directed to domestic market....

While things like Solidworks training may not be needed for domestic manufacture, I can assure you these pieces I saw need that level of tech for the quality. It is either being designed in India or elsewhere.... ..most likely designed in USA.

The way modern machinery works, everything has to be programmed into the supply chain machinery which then spits out 100,000 copies for 1 cent a piece.

What I'm trying to say is that there are two supply streams in India. One is the Global supply stream that folks abroad get to see. The other supply stream comes out of Teynampet, Agra, Dharavi, type factories.... ..not sure why this is so, though I have a guess... ..Way back in the day GOI would set up factories for export only. All the biggest Shrimp, best coconuts, juciest mango, best shoes, etc was meant for export only. Occasionally these export items would land in our laps and we would marvel at the high quality but there was never any place we could get them. This dichotomy seems to have carried over into manufacturing..

While solidworks training may not be required for domestic market. You definitely need it for the export market. Not sure if the global companies will hire India folks to do the design, there is inertia, but definitely an opportunity to feed these export factories. Hopefully these folks then trickle into the domestic market. Which has happened in the consumer products industry for instance... ..I continually marvel at the quality of India made soaps, creams and the packaging, esp. considering the old shoddy dettol soap days... :)

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby aakashrj » 20 Aug 2017 15:19

http://indianexpress.com/article/educat ... s-4804210/

The Centre will provide Rs 70,000 as monthly fellowship to those researchers doing their PhDs in IITs or IISc, Union higher education secretary Kewal Kumar Sharma has said. Presently researcher-students get Rs 25,000 as monthly scholarship at IITs. “As part of the research fellowship scheme of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, we wish the meritorious students who are being forced to leave the country for purely financial reasons stay within the country.”
“We will provide 2,000 such monthly fellowships across the IIT system and IISc Bengaluru,” Sharma said at the 67th Foundation Day of IIT Kharagpur at its Kharagpur campus in West Midnapore district on Friday. It will be given for a period of five years, he said.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Supratik » 20 Aug 2017 18:47

I don't think this (if true) will go down well with Ass. Profs. who are starting around 70-80k. Far more important is to provide 3+2=5 year fellowships to post-docs so that they stay in India. The overwhelming majority of post-docs leave the country. Unlike Ph.D. students these are trained manpower. Your productivity with post-docs is much higher than with Ph.D. students. But due to lack of opportunities they leave and faculties miss the opportunity to utilize trained manpower.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Supratik » 20 Aug 2017 19:33

After reading the link it seems to me it could be given to researchers who have already done their Ph.Ds in IITs/IISc. Maybe the reporter did not get it properly. If so, then it is very much necessary.


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Re: Indian Education System

Postby sum » 04 Sep 2017 13:40

Story of our premier institutes in a blog:
Would like to share the pathetic experience of IIT-Jammu seminar+interview held recently at IIT-Delhi.

1. No accommodation was initially offered in the interview letter. Once requested, accommodation was offered in IIT Delhi.

2. We were asked to vacate the rooms in the evening of the second day. Imagine someone has a flight/train the next day. Where he/she is supposed to stay??

3. There was no arrangement for lunch on both the days. Candidates were called at 930 in the morning and the seminars/interviews were continuing till evening. Only tea and light snacks were served in the first day but there was absolute nothing on the second day.

4. Forgot about lunch there was even no proper arrangement for drinking water.

5. Washrooms near the boardroom in the main building where interviews were held were in pathetic condition with shit lying all around. Can't believe I was in IIT Delhi, one of the premier institute in India.

Please bear in mind that we candidates are human and need food/water like others. If this is the way they conduct interviews and treat us, GOD knows what will be the ground situation in Jammu.


The point is it is the same everywhere. If you apply for DST or dbt for funding, you will be called for presentation at 9 am if you are shortlisted. No accommodation will be provided and you have to travel air India. After reaching the venue, you will be as slotted for the 16th presentation. That will be at 5 pm.

You will have a separate lunch from selection committee members so that you will not influence them to give you funding.

This is how everything works in India. So think of selection committee in IIT Delhi as training for you.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 05 Sep 2017 21:06

https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/please-spare-us-india-does-not-need-a-national-testing-service

The government recently announced the creation of a centralised testing body, the National Testing Service (NTS), to conduct national level entrance examinations for engineering, management and medical programmes. The objective of this organisation is to conduct the Common Admission Test (CAT, for IIMs), Joint Entrance Examination (JEE-Main), JEE (Advanced), Graduate Aptitude Test in Engineering (GATE), Common Management Admission Test (CMAT), National Eligibility and Entrance Test (NEET, for medical admissions), National Eligibility Test (NET) — which are currently conducted by the CBSE, IITs, IIMs and AICTE every year.

The establishment of NTS comes at a time when there is already quite a bit of confusion over the centralised medical admission examination, the NEET. Tamil Nadu wants to bypass the NEET, as the syllabus is out of sync with their higher secondary syllabus, and West Bengal wants it conducted in Bengali. ‘Reality Check India’ explains quite well, why the NEET should have been avoided. Extend the issues discussed in that article, to all the other exams which the NTS is likely to take charge of.

Why centralised testing is unfair in India

India does not need another centralised agency for examinations. The reasons for this are numerous:

1. Education lies in the concurrent list. Every state has its unique syllabus, with topics, standards and coverage adapted to local needs and relevance. The idea of a "one nation, one merit list" is not only un-achievable but also unfair, since it completely dismisses the state to state variations in the syllabus. Karnataka has the KCET system, AP and Telangana have EAMCAT.

All these systems have evolved with time and are tuned to local needs.


2. State boards often cater to a large number of first generation learners, and so the system is often adjusted to their needs. While Tamil Nadu state board largely covers similar topics as ISC or CBSE in class 11 and class 12 mathematics (just to cite an example), there is a dramatic difference between the standard of the questions asked. At times, this is due to sheer incompetence and indifference of state board officials. But often, the board has chosen a standard optimised to the needs and ability of the student body.

3. Then comes the issue of "false negatives" in an entrance exam. Many of our entrance exams, such as the JEE, test for a level higher than what might be required to study an engineering degree. Often the academic content of a B-Tech degree, might not require much more than the diluted standards of a state board physics, chemistry, and mathematics. Thus, entrance examinations should only be based on the least common denominator, for the sake of fairness to students of different boards.

This, however, has its share of issues as it dilutes academic rigour. IITs might want to have a difficult test which pulls in the Olympiad winning champion, who might not be able to distinguish himself in an easy test.

Centralization will invariably require students to join coaching centres thus encouraging a system of private gates to publicly funded institutions.

Failure of pan-India systems to handle assessments fairly

Centralised examinations have not worked out very fairly in India. For example, on multiple occasions CBSE and CISCE have been caught rigging scores, increasing pass rates arbitrarily and inflating marks by as much as 10-12 per cent in the aggregate. There is also evidence to suggest that influential schools and specific zones like Delhi are given an unfair advantage. The Times of India article linked above, suggests that a Delhi student with English and PCM would receive five marks more than others in the aggregate. CBSE, despite the pretence of a national board, is dominated by members from Delhi and North India. There is a disproportionate representation of those from the corridors of Delhi University, Jawaharlal Nehru University.

It is inevitable that any new centralised testing body will also go the same way - and run processes primarily optimised for the convenience of students from Delhi and central boards. However, one must add, that CBSE and ISC have superior academic standards to most of our state boards.


No one linear ranking of merit

The nature of entrance exams is such that even the best of them can only test for a least common denominator. One linear ranking and uniform merit list can never be a great idea for a country as vast and diverse as India. Let's try to understand this in the context of the engineering entrance as that has a very large number of takers.

- What if a particular college wants to recognise an Informatics Olympiad Winner and give him special preference in their entrance process to a Computer Science program, which is currently the case at IIIT Hyderabad?

- What if a particular institute wants to award bonus marks to students who were awarded medals in Olympiads or those who performed well in relevant extracurricular? This is currently a part of the admission at IIIT Delhi.

- BITs Pilani has a well-regarded entrance process which has not only physics, chemistry and mathematics, but also a section on language and reasoning.

These steps are required, because of our entrance examination pattern, typically based on physics, chemistry and mathematics are unable to identify talent with a special interest or ability in a particular subject. Recognition of certain accomplishments like these is impossible in a system based on a "one nation, one rank list" mirage.

Standard tests lead to a situation where one is unable to distinguish aptitude for verticals. This happens even within the IIT system where everything from Computer Science to BioTechnology to Economics uses a test based on physics, chemistry and mathematics as the only criteria. It overrides the autonomy of private players to identify and select talent of their choice.

Similarly, will the organisation be able to hold "one exam" for an MBA entrance test - a degree where different business schools value very different experiences and qualifications? The answer is obviously no.


........
Increasing the blast zone of ill-conceived experiments

Centralization and concentration at a single point will also lead to centralised experimentation by future Human Resource Development (HRD) ministers. Remember the removal of the CBSE standard 10 board exam and the introduction of an ill-conceived grade-based CCE almost purely on the whims of Kapil Sibal. The system has resulted in bizarre levels of grade inflation, and 11 per cent of class 10 students scored a perfect 10/10 GPA in 2016. There has been a spiral of grade inflation and an extreme dilution of standards in the CBSE grade 10 exam.

Something similar could happen with centralised exams. Decisions will eventually be made for whimsical and non-academic reasons. The presence of a central agency will immediately spill all consequences nation-wide. The chances and implications of something going wrong increase manifold. For example, the NEET-2 question paper was leaked in Uttarakhand, in 2016.

Statistical Knowledge of assessments in India is abysmal

1. NEET-1 and NEET-2 used two different question papers (in 2016), with varying levels of difficulty. They release a combined rank list based on the absolute score or the raw marks, without any re-adjustment or re-scaling of the scores to compensate for variations in difficulty levels.

2. JEE did something similar with its online and offline versions.

3. Median CBSE score in class 12 examinations jumped by 8 per cent between 2004 and 2016 (from 61.5 to 69.5 per cent).

It is not easy to design a “one size fits all test” which has certain statistical characteristics. For example, the nature of the IIT JEE syllabus, causes it to be significantly biased towards certain states where either coaching centres abound, or the schools are affiliated to central boards like CBSE and ISC.

- This is the shape of a CBSE curve in Mathematics. Not only is there a massive bunching of scores at 95 but they have also reshaped it into something resembling a uniform distribution. One can only wonder how the Gaussian got so severely distorted.

Figure 1Figure 1
- For decades, ICSE and ISC exams have certain numbers altogether missing from their score distributions. It is likely that there is some bug or glitch in their system. These missing gaps suggest some error where at some stage a floating point number is accidentally converted into an integer. Notice the huge gap before 40. There is a very generous distribution of “grace marks” to bump up students to the pass mark.

Figure 2 Figure 2
Multi-component testing:

We have an absurdity where students ditch subjects like economics to study physical education because one has strict grading and the other has a liberal assessment. We do not have processes in place to calibrate fairly across students with different elective subjects. This happens at the UPSC examination as well.

- The NTS is unlikely to be able to develop specialised competence across domains and conduct exams for fields as diverse as technology, management and medicine. Conducting an exam like the GATE, NEET or JEE requires domain experts and academics on board. This competence is not something which can be developed within a short span of time.

The organisation could take up responsibilities such as those of ETS and Ofqual

What might be beneficial is a general examination like the Graduate Record Examination (GRE, USA) which is a rating examination rather than a ranking examination. With the large numbers which we have, this could lead to a coarse filter, which can be used as a primary eligibility requirement by various universities, to make the first screen through lakhs of applications and converge to a few thousand who can then be put through their layer of testing.

The NTS could also serve as an exam watchdog similar to the Ofqual in the United Kingdom, which regulates examinations and qualifications. The objective could be to handle the operations and conduct of the examination to avoid mass cheating and paper leakage. It should also monitor the statistical distributions of reported scores to identify malfeasance, grade distortion and swing the axes on grade inflation time to time. The key point is that the responsibilities of the NTS should be framed in a manner which does not lead to any coercion which requires same academic systems all across the country.

The body could also help come up with guidance to central universities, on how to calibrate and compare the scores of students from different school leaving systems. There is no objective way to help us benchmark 85 per cent in Tamil Nadu board versus a similar score in CBSE or Maharashtra Board. This leads to complicated situations such as that witnessed in Delhi University in 2015 and 2016, where the bulk of those admitted were from TN, CBSE and ISC as those were the boards which graded most generously.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 05 Sep 2017 21:38

https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/explained-why-india-can-do-without-neet

In this article will try to plug what I consider to be the main information gaps in the NEET debate. Let’s try a Q&A format.

How many seats for MBBS in India?

The rough stats are as follows. India has about 50,000 medical seats at the undergraduate level. Roughly 55% are in private colleges and 45% in government colleges. Of the 55% in the private sector, 50-60% are with minority private colleges and the rest with non-minority colleges. Of the 45% in government colleges the vast majority are with state government. The notable ones with the Central government being AIIMS, AFMC.

Believe it or not getting this basic level of information is hard work. The collation and disclosures are not being done by any ministry after the ‘pull model of the Right to Information Act’ took hold.

Can private medical colleges admit purely based on money?

India hasn’t been able to solve the central problem of education at school or college level. It has a love-hate relationship with the private providers. The main issue is if you granted a free pass to the minorities (linguistic and religious) due to the way the constitution is interpreted you simply have to do so for the others. This dilemma has not been resolved to this day and is currently the site of the main strategic battle in India.

In the 90’s there were two landmark cases you need to know about that shaped the current situation. The first wasMohini Jain vs Govt of Karnataka. In that case, the court ruled that private colleges could charge no more than what government medical colleges did. Obviously, that kicked the private institutes hard and it was clear they were all going to go bust and the government was in no shape to pick up the demand. So they retried it in another case called Unnikrishnan vs State of AP which established “cross subsidy” as a principle that exists to this day. The idea is you could split the seats into ‘free seats’ and charge a higher fee for some other students and use that to subsidize the former category.

Contrary to what people think private colleges cannot take all their seats and simply sell them to the highest bidder. Transparently or non-transparently. This is how it works, roughly with minor variations across states.

About 40% of all seats are given to state governments – they are filled by merit list created by a state government-administered test. The fees are comparable to government colleges.
About 30-40% are filled by another test – usually as a result of a consensual agreement. This is COMED-K (in Karnataka) and MCET (Andhra) similar tests exists everywhere. The fees are fixed and are much higher than the government seats.
About 10-20% are with the managements to be allocated via a transparent process.
15% is the quota for Non Resident Indians !!! (believe it or not) The rationale for this quota is that foreign Indians are usually rich and can afford to cross subsidize the others!
So only the 3) and 4) intake can some hanky panky happen. Let us go a little deeper.


What is scope of NEET ?

NEET is an eligibility and entrance test. The test would create a single merit list nationwide. From that single list states and colleges can carve out their own lists based on categories. The rule is that within a category the inter-se ranking is preserved.

NEET would remove quota system for OBC

Absolutely not. NEET has nothing to do with the caste quotas. What will happen is they will take the NEET merit list remove all the non OBC students and voila you have a OBC Merit List. This will be used to fill the Vertical Quotas for OBCs in all state and central medical colleges. Similarly for SC/ST/OBC-1/OBC-2A/ what not. You take one list and derive many lists. I was surprised to see so many Delhi students think that NEET would do “merit wise” medical seats and not caste based !!


Are you saying “meritorious” students cant access thousands of new seats after NEET?

So tragic that this lie is being spread to gullible students by some vested interests in the establishment. This is the truth.

NEET will not add a single extra seat.

All the seat sharing arrangements I talked about earlier stay as it is. All the state government domicile quotas stay in place. All the caste based quotas also stay as is. The NRI quota which is outside NEET also stays as is.

There are so many students in Twitter thinking that after NEET they would get to access a whole lot of new seats in other states, private universities,etc. Stop. Please.

The only thing NEET does is force all the existing seat sharing arrangments to draw from a single national merit list by categorizing it. For example : a TN State government would take the national merit list and throw out all non-TN students and derive a state merit list. Not a single new seat will be added.

Will NEET break the Mafia Nexus and throw open seat to poor students?

First of all the “mafia nexus” as alleged by some activists in a letter to the President is an interesting beast. The real question is WHY there is a politician and “mafia” nexus in such a high echelon & knowledge based sector like medical colleges? The reason for this is the sectarianism and capture of this vital sector by malafide players. The sector is not seeing participation from eminent philanthropists rather by those with the political connections to get this, that ,or the other license approved. NEET does not address this at all. So let’s take it easy o the Mafia , they are here to stay. NEET or no NEET.

Will NEET allow poorer students to access seats denied to them ?

Well, the jury is out on this one too.

See this from the angle of a poor or middle class student. If you rank high enough in the state entrance tests, even today you can afford an MBBS seat. If you don’t kill it in the state government exam but make it to the private exams (COMEDK etc) you can still become a doctor if you can scrape together about 6-10L/year. If you are poor and you fail to make the grade in either of these types of exams – essentially the door is closed.

Now if you are rich, things could be different. If you screw up the state exam as well as the private exam, you still have a shot using the ‘management quota’. There are very few seats totally at the discretion of the management that they can just give to anyone with the cash. Still you could play some games , such as dummy candidate vacated spots, lack of enforcement in politically powerful private colleges, and buy a seat for yourself. This is what they mean when they say ‘Donation seat”. This I would admit is rampant and despicable. The thing is NEET is not the way to kill this. Better laws that don’t grant these guys any monopoly status and better police is the way to nail them.

NEET and transparent process and middle class

Be careful when you use the term ‘transparent process. A process could be fully transparent and still be of no use to you because you cant afford it. There is a very famous medical college on the west coast of India which has a transparent exam, fully clean fees (cheques only) and cost 25Lakhs/year. NEET will not change this. If you cant afford something pre-NEET , you will not be able to afford it post-NEET.

What are the arguments against NEET in principle vs the way Supreme Court is pushing it

The touch stone for me is the so called ‘doctrine of legitimate expectation’. Lakhs of kids across the country have prepared for the exams in a certain way, using a certain method, inside a certain syllabus. They are able to invest so much effort into the preparations only because they assume institutional stability. This is not just a peripheral issue to them, but the main focus of all their activities over 2-3 years. You cant just walk in and disrupt like that with a diktat from top. Especially when the new exam is designed to favour students of a particular board (CBSE). There are tiny nuanced differences even between boards of high standards like AP and Bengal and CBSE. Maybe Physics goes a bit further in one side in NCERT, maybe Biology is slightly different in one. These tiny matters may not rock the boat of these clueless activists but could mean the difference between doctor or not for these kids.

The next objection is imposition of one syllabus, NCERT. Before a single exam regime like NEET is imposed there needs to be concerted effort to bring up all the states to a single or atleast comparable academic standard.

NEET destroys institutions. For Andhra students, EAMCET is a way of life, a pivotal institution around which their entire high school life is planned. The exam itself is not just a piece of paper, there are actual people, rules, psychometrics, exam logistics, counselling. An entire ecosystem that has seen decades of real world use and absorbed and adapted to various local pulls and pushes. Think about it. Why would you lose this? Or if you wanted to lose this – why would you do it just because of some spite over how rich kids get in easy?

Will NEET lower fees?

Not really. NEET by itself has nothing to do with fee regulation. In fact, my bet is that NEET will increase fees. I predict the following rearrangement.

Category 1 : NEET (low fee merit list)
Category 2 : NEET (high fee merit list) for the current 30% under private exam
Category 3: The mgmt quota will take from NEET but hike fees substantially for all. So will accept 40Lakhs/year and take in NEET order.
Category 4: NRI quota (outside NEET anyway) – this monstrosity needs a separate post by itself

Therefore what will likely happen is due to the loss of selection autonomy, private colleges will simply hike the fees across the board. Remember they can do this because you admitted they also have political backing. As an illustration. Imagine that the mgmt quota hiked the fees to 30L/year and then used NEET to pick. Is that such a momentous improvement over the old method where the nominal fees was 10L/year but you could bribe your way in with 40-1Cr. This is the real benefit of NEET.



Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Lilo » 06 Sep 2017 03:16

Lilo wrote:
^
Please spare us from such nameless tripe - may be some half educated idiots will lap it up in WhatsApp groups ,not here.

The laws of physics, chemistry or biology Or logic of Maths is same anywhere -the aptitude in these subjects + basic english capacity are the subjects which require testing upon say for engineering,medicine.

The board percentages (whatever board it may be) must only reflect which grade the student cleared his tenth or twelfth.
The marks/percentages there should never be the criterion for selection into professional courses replacing the role of competitive examinations.
The class/grade of passing in these boards(not the actual marks/percentages) could at max be eligible conditions .

Many posters have already posted that in many states including TN,100 or more centums in subjects like English where a centum is hardly possible make a farce of the examination process itself.
Pointing fingers at central boards is merely pot calling kettle black.
svenkat wrote:Lilo ji,
You have let emotions cloud your response.The author of the article admits the superiority of CBSE syllabus.Infact beyond doubt CBSE has the best syllabus/books because of its all India nature.

Do Cambridge,Princeton,Berkeley,Chicago,Stanford,MIT admit students based on JEE type exams in their respective countries?The answer is No.

The situation is different in India.Nobody in his senses will ask for any drastic change in JEE,AIIMS exam nor will anyone have any issue with those universities which opt for such all India exams.For instance SASTRA in TN admits big chunk through national entrance(JEE/AIEEE) or similar such exam.

There is nothing great about entrance exams in themselves.There are people who berate Entrance tests based on envy/parochialism.None of uswill have any sympathy with such regional warriors.Almost as a reaction,we support All India exams.But there is a middle way.All India Exams to continue where it is in vogue,to be implemented where colleges seek such exams and other fair/transparent means in rest.

The real issue is the indifference/parochialism in states.That has to change.One can argue that some will not change without central goading(there is merit in the argument) and others will say that change has to come from the states themselves(again some might say the inertia is too much at state level).

why harsh words for posting an article with a different view?
schinnas wrote:
svenkat wrote:
Do Cambridge,Princeton,Berkeley,Chicago,Stanford,MIT admit students based on JEE type exams in their respective countries?The answer is No.


They admit students partly based on standardized tests such as SAT. All MBA admissions are based on GMAT scores in addition to other criteria.

US has true federalism combined with standardization where each college has its own admission criteria but still leverage common attitude tests like SAT, GRE, GMAT, USMLE, etc.

In India, due to corruption at local level, we tend to rely only on standardization.
Supratik wrote:That swarajya article is wrong on many counts. GRE does not rank but everywhere there is a cut-off. Variations of the same. The treatment for malaria is same everywhere. It is not like TN has invented a treatment for malaria that is unique for TN and does not work elsewhere. As an educationist I find the swarajya article to be bunkum. All scientific theories, ideas, concepts, etc are the same everywhere. It is not that they are different in TN. The problem appears to me to be the TN education system and a failure to train students for such tests. Standardization of education is very important to raise standards everywhere. Laggards and those taking short-cuts will initially suffer. I don't understand what local variation to education means as these tests are not testing literature. The theory of relativity is same everywhere. There is no local variation in TN. So overall a rubbish article trying to put down a much needed effort in India.
Gus wrote:
svenkat wrote:The author of the article admits the superiority of CBSE syllabus.Infact beyond doubt CBSE has the best syllabus/books because of its all India nature.


isn't it just NCERT syllabus. both CBSE and state boards pick up from it??? correct me if I am wrong here

Do Cambridge,Princeton,Berkeley,Chicago,Stanford,MIT admit students based on JEE type exams in their respective countries?The answer is No.


I can't speak for non US univs, but having gone through the MS route in US and a little familiarity with the system - yes, they do admit based on standardized tests (GRE, GMAT, SAT and so on). But that is only part of your application. Your GPA does count, as is your overall profile, your recommendation letters, your statement of purpose etc. In overall profile evaluation, US universities do 'affirmation policy' stuff where they look to increase diversity and may take in students of certain types over students of another type despite score differences.

Obviously we cannot make it so elaborate and subjective to the processor of application. That would be a minefield of issues. So we just stick to a number that students score and keep it as objective as possible with no room for interpretation.

why harsh words for posting an article with a different view?


you are not the only one to get jumped on like this. folks need to remember that "RT is not endorsement" twitter policy applies in forum as well.
csubash wrote:Leave Anitha matter for now. As Lilo pointed out she is a victim of political blue whale game.

Coming to NEET - NEET alone shouldn't be the criteria for any university places. Getting a bad doctor is failure of the university education system nothing to do with admission policies to university. If there is a bad student then he/she shouldn't come out of university with a MBBS degree. Admission policies to government medical colleges in TN hasn't produced any more bad doctors than rest of india- so cut c**p about TN government policy of admission to Government medical colleges. Regarding deemed universities - they all had their own admission policies - hence the need for a common entrance like NEET. If solving MCQ's in a timely fashion alone decides a university place be it medicine or engg or law or arts then god save school education. A good school education is a fundamental requirement for a civilised nation. In the mad race to university places we are going to throw away what little education is provided in schools. If schools have no input to university education then that incentive also goes away. Government can close all schools & provide coaching classes as somebody here suggested for TN government. MCQ's can't test concepts, test hypothesis, educate a student about fundamentals of physics, chemistry or anything. MCQ based questions makes more zombies with even more out of school coaching programmes, tests, mocks, etc. Already there are advertisements for IIT/JEE where somebody says to a 5th standard student - why haven't you joined coaching classes yet, you are late already. As already pointed out very soon there is going to be MCQ based testing for everything & mark my words our school education will be even more in s**t than already it is in a few years time.
As that swaraj article suggests try making a standard testing policy for board exams rather than a common MCQ based system for the whole country.


Supratik wrote:That swarajya article is wrong on many counts. GRE does not rank but everywhere there is a cut-off. Variations of the same. The treatment for malaria is same everywhere. It is not like TN has invented a treatment for malaria that is unique for TN and does not work elsewhere. As an educationist I find the swarajya article to be bunkum. All scientific theories, ideas, concepts, etc are the same everywhere. It is not that they are different in TN. The problem appears to me to be the TN education system and a failure to train students for such tests. Standardization of education is very important to raise standards everywhere. Laggards and those taking short-cuts will initially suffer. I don't understand what local variation to education means as these tests are not testing literature. The theory of relativity is same everywhere. There is no local variation in TN. So overall a rubbish article trying to put down a much needed effort in India.
Supratik wrote:OT but one of the many suggestions made on education on BRF was standardization so that every corner of India follows some basic standards. In engineering this has been achieved by JEE and there is talk to make it the basis for all engineering seats. Similar system for other streams. Only general college education does not have an entrance test, yet. I see no complaints from TN on any of these tests. My conclusion the private medical lobby and their political masters were basically selling these seats to the highest bidders. Now they can't do so blatantly as someone may take them to court. Hence, this tamasha.
rajsunder wrote:
csubash wrote:Leave Anitha matter for now. As Lilo pointed out she is a victim of political blue whale game.

Coming to NEET - NEET alone shouldn't be the criteria for any university places. Getting a bad doctor is failure of the university education system nothing to do with admission policies to university. If there is a bad student then he/she shouldn't come out of university with a MBBS degree. Admission policies to government medical colleges in TN hasn't produced any more bad doctors than rest of india- so cut c**p about TN government policy of admission to Government medical colleges. Regarding deemed universities - they all had their own admission policies - hence the need for a common entrance like NEET. If solving MCQ's in a timely fashion alone decides a university place be it medicine or engg or law or arts then god save school education. A good school education is a fundamental requirement for a civilised nation. In the mad race to university places we are going to throw away what little education is provided in schools. If schools have no input to university education then that incentive also goes away. Government can close all schools & provide coaching classes as somebody here suggested for TN government. MCQ's can't test concepts, test hypothesis, educate a student about fundamentals of physics, chemistry or anything. MCQ based questions makes more zombies with even more out of school coaching programmes, tests, mocks, etc. Already there are advertisements for IIT/JEE where somebody says to a 5th standard student - why haven't you joined coaching classes yet, you are late already. As already pointed out very soon there is going to be MCQ based testing for everything & mark my words our school education will be even more in s**t than already it is in a few years time.
As that swaraj article suggests try making a standard testing policy for board exams rather than a common MCQ based system for the whole country.


NEET has been in plans since 2010. Why is it that TN government not bring up the eductaion standard for +1 and +2 in last 7 years???
Why is it that TN government accepts AIEEE and not NEET???
ALL of the entrance exams i have taken or known about, in India or abroad are MCQ. One cannot answer a MCQ without understanding the fundamentals. Which is unlike Q & A exam where one can mugup the answers and vomit the same without understanding the underlying concepts.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Lilo » 06 Sep 2017 03:17

Please, Spare Us! India Does Not Need A National Testing Service
The government recently announced the creation of a centralised testing body, the National Testing Service (NTS), to conduct national level entrance examinations for engineering, management and medical programmes. The objective of this organisation is to conduct the Common Admission Test (CAT, for IIMs), Joint Entrance Examination (JEE-Main), JEE (Advanced), Graduate Aptitude Test in Engineering (GATE), Common Management Admission Test (CMAT), National Eligibility and Entrance Test (NEET, for medical admissions), National Eligibility Test (NET) — which are currently conducted by the CBSE, IITs, IIMs and AICTE every year.

The establishment of NTS comes at a time when there is already quite a bit of confusion over the centralised medical admission examination, the NEET. Tamil Nadu wants to bypass the NEET, as the syllabus is out of sync with their higher secondary syllabus, and West Bengal wants it conducted in Bengali. ‘Reality Check India’ explains quite well, why the NEET should have been avoided. Extend the issues discussed in that article, to all the other exams which the NTS is likely to take charge of.

Why centralised testing is unfair in India

India does not need another centralised agency for examinations. The reasons for this are numerous:

1. Education lies in the concurrent list. Every state has its unique syllabus, with topics, standards and coverage adapted to local needs and relevance. The idea of a "one nation, one merit list" is not only un-achievable but also unfair, since it completely dismisses the state to state variations in the syllabus. Karnataka has the KCET system, AP and Telangana have EAMCAT.

All these systems have evolved with time and are tuned to local needs.

2. State boards often cater to a large number of first generation learners, and so the system is often adjusted to their needs. While Tamil Nadu state board largely covers similar topics as ISC or CBSE in class 11 and class 12 mathematics (just to cite an example), there is a dramatic difference between the standard of the questions asked. At times, this is due to sheer incompetence and indifference of state board officials. But often, the board has chosen a standard optimised to the needs and ability of the student body.{is engendering low standards by promoting rote learning & "guidebook style of preparation" with even the steps in math questions byhearted, the "need & ability" of student body of TN ? - gimme a break!!
Does no one see the pressing and real need for laying a strong foundation by end of 12th for higher studies in engineering or medicine by inculcating logical analysis and atleast some meticulous approach to problem solving?)


3. Then comes the issue of "false negatives" in an entrance exam. Many of our entrance exams, such as the JEE, test for a level higher than what might be required to study an engineering degree.{Ohh really ? - doesnt he not know that competitive exams like JEE are relative marking based tests - there are no percentages to tout centums obtained via mediocrity - there are only percentiles - and an exam pattern to evolve a thinking approach and style which will keep anyone in good steed for the rest of the professional and personal lives} Often the academic content of a B-Tech degree, might not require much more than the diluted standards of a state board physics, chemistry, and mathematics. Thus, entrance examinations should only be based on the least common denominator, for the sake of fairness to students of different boards.{The idiocy here plumbs the depth literally - so while preparing for JEE as reconfigured by this guy - a student should not solve the best of the math/physics problems from say boards like WBJEE or practice in gaining speed as engendered by EAMCET but must choose the lowest common denominator state board say some Bihar or TN board and then stand unequal with 10,000 rote learning toppers getting the 100/100 marks in the new JEE destined for IITs while the actual rough diamonds with above average IQs disenchanted by rote learning format now lost and discarded amongst the say 2.5 lakh strong (85/100 marks zone) falling in the 70 percentile band and finally branded as average/under performers in the beginning itself ?}

This, however, has its share of issues as it dilutes academic rigour. IITs might want to have a difficult test which pulls in the Olympiad winning champion, who might not be able to distinguish himself in an easy test.{he goes on, IITs give Btech honors degree so their approach to testing may be more rigorous - so they go for JEE advanced rank - the others which mostly award simple B.tech are satisfied with JEE mains score}

Centralization will invariably require students to join coaching centres thus encouraging a system of private gates to publicly funded institutions.{how is attending coaching center/prep school and putting more effort into understanding rather than remembering bad for a student ?
Is this guy living in some socialist utopia where only competitive mugging by gavage in private schools only to vomit it in the exam and forgetting by next day must matter? Is the competitive understanding and analysis of concepts as in a coaching center useless in comparison to competitive mugging engendered in board exam testing?}


Failure of pan-India systems to handle assessments fairly

Centralised examinations have not worked out very fairly in India. For example, on multiple occasions CBSE and CISCE have been caught rigging scores, increasing pass rates arbitrarily and inflating marks by as much as 10-12 per cent in the aggregate. There is also evidence to suggest that influential schools and specific zones like Delhi are given an unfair advantage. The Times of India article linked above, suggests that a Delhi student with English and PCM would receive five marks more than others in the aggregate. CBSE, despite the pretence of a national board, is dominated by members from Delhi and North India. There is a disproportionate representation of those from the corridors of Delhi University, Jawaharlal Nehru University.{Here comes the regionalist randirona ... when the board exam scores dont matter in NEET or JEE or CAT or GATE or UPSC wonder why this guy is doing randirona about the supposedly unfair advantage CBSE's supposedly rigged exam percentages give in 12th board? Do the state boards rig their scores? - if both central and state boards rig their scores to increase the pass percentiles or the top percentiles , intuitively/logically/historically which boards are inclined to rig the scores by the maximum, as if its their second nature ... anyone will answer its the state boards.
Did he drag CBSE or ICSE or the state boards into this farticle while railing against a centralized NTS for competitive exams only to muddy the waters and pitch some agenda most foul?}


It is inevitable that any new centralised testing body will also go the same way - and run processes primarily optimized for the convenience of students from Delhi and central boards.{what a load of tripe} However, one must add, that CBSE and ISC have superior academic standards to most of our state boards.

No one linear ranking of merit

The nature of entrance exams is such that even the best of them can only test for a least common denominator. One linear ranking and uniform merit list can never be a great idea for a country as vast and diverse as India.{to put this in context i post a vedio }


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM
Let's try to understand this in the context of the engineering entrance as that has a very large number of takers.

- What if a particular college wants to recognise an Informatics Olympiad Winner and give him special preference in their entrance process to a Computer Science program, which is currently the case at IIIT Hyderabad?{ohh really for the 1-2 if lucky informatics olympiad winners per year that india produces he is dissing on centralized competitive exams ? - Who decided that in the future the institutions wont be able to set aside couple of seats by little modification of procedure - afaik IIMs were recently given wide ranging freedom by NDA passed law in parliament}

- What if a particular institute wants to award bonus marks to students who were awarded medals in Olympiads or those who performed well in relevant extracurricular? This is currently a part of the admission at IIIT Delhi.{first standardize the testing procedure, every thing comes after}

- BITs Pilani has a well-regarded entrance process which has not only physics, chemistry and mathematics, but also a section on language and reasoning.{before that BITS had a quite idiotic antediluvian exam process relying on 12th board marks, if there is no centralized testing process what is the guarantee that BITS wont revert back to its old model actually aiming to monetize the seats better}

These steps are required, because of our entrance examination pattern, typically based on physics, chemistry and mathematics are unable to identify talent with a special interest or ability in a particular subject.{if one's interest lies in History or Language or Politics or Art or Geography why is he/she sitting for engineering or Medicine exam hain ji ?} Recognition of certain accomplishments like these is impossible in a system based on a "one nation, one rank list" mirage.{these kind of hangerson in education system will breed mediocrity till eternity citing the figleaf of independence - no basic minimum SAT like system will be in place to function as a common denominator but flights of fantasy and sobstories on fears drummed up for fear sake regarding some nonexisting sports quota going to be endangered by a centralized exam}

Standard tests lead to a situation where one is unable to distinguish aptitude for verticals. This happens even within the IIT system where everything from Computer Science to BioTechnology to Economics uses a test based on physics, chemistry and mathematics as the only criteria.{he , clubs economics with engineering streams like Btech in CompSci or Biotech - is he living under a rock and is unable to differentiate Bsc or Msc degrees in Biotech or Compsci from the Btech degrees ?} It overrides the autonomy of private players to identify and select talent of their choice.{yeah sure pretty good job the pvt players are doing till now http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 660619.ece}

Similarly, will the organisation be able to hold "one exam" for an MBA entrance test - a degree where different business schools value very different experiences and qualifications? The answer is obviously no.

........
Increasing the blast zone of ill-conceived experiments

Centralization and concentration at a single point will also lead to centralised experimentation by future Human Resource Development (HRD) ministers. Remember the removal of the CBSE standard 10 board exam and the introduction of an ill-conceived grade-based CCE almost purely on the whims of Kapil Sibal. The system has resulted in bizarre levels of grade inflation, and 11 per cent of class 10 students scored a perfect 10/10 GPA in 2016. There has been a spiral of grade inflation and an extreme dilution of standards in the CBSE grade 10 exam.{he again brings unrelated and irrelevant board exams when addressing matters related to competitive exams for professional streams as is the aim of NTS}

Something similar could happen with centralised exams. Decisions will eventually be made for whimsical and non-academic reasons.{he doesnt want a correct law(aka NTS) to be passed by parliament because "bestowing" the power on the parliament(which includes the Council of states i.e Rajya sabha) to take the correct decision on a subject in concurrent list(wait a min.. so the parliament already has the power hain ?) will create scope for bad laws by parliament/center in the future ,so let us take the bad decision now and devolve to the grassroots so that the respective gram panchayats set the curriculum/testing agenda for the engineering college in their revenue limits is the argument :rotfl: } The presence of a central agency will immediately spill all consequences nation-wide. The chances and implications of something going wrong increase manifold. For example, the NEET-2 question paper was leaked in Uttarakhand, in 2016.{yes once NEET question paper supposedly was leaked, so centralized testing is bad - countless instances in state boards where questions to be mugged are leaked and auctioned to the select private schools on the day before the exam with cut going to state govt leaders to the education minister doesnt matter}

Statistical Knowledge of assessments in India is abysmal{he postures as if only he knows about scaling in India - he claims that statistical knawligde is insufficient - apparently ISI in Kolkata is laying eggs, not publishing papers}

1. NEET-1 and NEET-2 used two different question papers (in 2016), with varying levels of difficulty. They release a combined rank list based on the absolute score or the raw marks, without any re-adjustment or re-scaling of the scores to compensate for variations in difficulty levels.{If in the beginning year scaling was not done due to teething troubles, lets scrap NEET, is the argument .Apparently he doenst want to reveal that scaling is inherent to GATE and all exams of UPSC since decades including for technical exams}

2. JEE did something similar with its online and offline versions.{JEE will phase out the offline format in time knowing this he disses on JEE for not doing this immediately.If JEE scraps offline as on this day the assorted schmucks and the author will claim discrimination against the computer illiterate.}

3. Median CBSE score in class 12 examinations jumped by 8 per cent between 2004 and 2016 (from 61.5 to 69.5 per cent).{ for the nth time, the board exam score shouldnt matter in competitive exam - only the fact whether you passed or failed the board exam with cutoff score must matter}

It is not easy to design a “one size fits all test” which has certain statistical characteristics. For example, the nature of the IIT JEE syllabus, causes it to be significantly biased towards certain states where either coaching centres abound, or the schools are affiliated to central boards like CBSE and ISC.{since capacity exists in other states and doesnt exist in some states - the national competitive exam should not be conducted with high standards - only do it with the lowest common denominator suiting TN or Bihar board.The lagging rich/poor states cannot develop capacity because he says they must not and should not}

- This is the shape of a CBSE curve in Mathematics. Not only is there a massive bunching of scores at 95 but they have also reshaped it into something resembling a uniform distribution. One can only wonder how the Gaussian got so severely distorted.

Figure 1Figure 1
- For decades, ICSE and ISC exams have certain numbers altogether missing from their score distributions. It is likely that there is some bug or glitch in their system. These missing gaps suggest some error where at some stage a floating point number is accidentally converted into an integer. Notice the huge gap before 40. There is a very generous distribution of “grace marks” to bump up students to the pass mark.

Figure 2 Figure 2
Multi-component testing:

We have an absurdity where students ditch subjects like economics to study physical education because one has strict grading and the other has a liberal assessment. We do not have processes in place to calibrate fairly across students with different elective subjects. This happens at the UPSC examination as well.
{he has no arguments to make which can deny the need for NTS (aka a national body for competitive exams) so he is selectively dissing on central 12th board exams throughout the farticle while giving he pathetic state boards a wide pass}

- The NTS is unlikely to be able to develop specialised competence across domains and conduct exams for fields as diverse as technology, management and medicine. Conducting an exam like the GATE, NEET or JEE requires domain experts and academics on board. This competence is not something which can be developed within a short span of time.{hain then how are the exams being conducted hitherto hain ji ?}

The organisation could take up responsibilities such as those of ETS and Ofqual

What might be beneficial is a general examination like the Graduate Record Examination (GRE, USA) which is a rating examination rather than a ranking examination. With the large numbers which we have, this could lead to a coarse filter, which can be used as a primary eligibility requirement by various universities, to make the first screen through lakhs of applications and converge to a few thousand who can then be put through their layer of testing.

The NTS could also serve as an exam watchdog similar to the Ofqual in the United Kingdom, which regulates examinations and qualifications. The objective could be to handle the operations and conduct of the examination to avoid mass cheating and paper leakage. It should also monitor the statistical distributions of reported scores to identify malfeasance, grade distortion and swing the axes on grade inflation time to time. The key point is that the responsibilities of the NTS should be framed in a manner which does not lead to any coercion which requires same academic systems all across the country.{he is suggesting NTS be constituted as a toothless white elephant with no work to do}

The body could also help come up with guidance to central universities, on how to calibrate and compare the scores of students from different school leaving systems.{he seems to revel in chaos ,first he/she demands that worthless board marks must be compulsorily be considered in any National competitive exam framework, then he poses the problem of scaling between unequal state boards - now provided some scaling methodology is arrived at, next step regional chauvinists from states along with the author will claim that discrimination is being done in scaling framework by the dutty northindian NTS} There is no objective way to help us benchmark 85 per cent in Tamil Nadu board versus a similar score in CBSE or Maharashtra Board. This leads to complicated situations such as that witnessed in Delhi University in 2015 and 2016, where the bulk of those admitted were from TN, CBSE and ISC as those were the boards which graded most generously.


Svenkat ji ,
Iam irritated at typing a useless rebutting post for an article which could be identified as grade A bullshit at first glance - please spare me next time from such ordeals.

Later edit:Edited much to make its readable.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 07 Sep 2017 08:24

How Tamil Nadu education system has turned into a vicious chain of apathy

...
The state’s education system is in a clear disarray. Reports have shown the falling quality of education—from school to higher to professional courses. In school education, years of study by the NGO Pratham, which brings out its Annual Status of Education Report (ASER-Rural), Tamil Nadu has been consistently at the bottom. ASER measures simple education outcomes and I have had the opportunity on two occasions to witness the survey among rural children to verify its authenticity. The surveys are conducted at the homes of children in a relaxed way. Sufficient time is given to the children and parents are informed. I was aghast to see children of 8th standard could not do basic division (see table for Tamil Nadu results for 2016).
...
But according to a Scroll report by M Rajshekhar, the numbers clash with findings from National Achievement Surveys conducted by NCERT. Its assessment of 10th standard students in 2015 placed Tamil Nadu close to the bottom—the state ranked 25th in Maths, 21st in Science and 28th in Social Science. The Scroll report showed there is a spike in the passmark level and the majority is between 35-75 marks. In Science, the jump is seen at 45, falling till 49, and then a gradual rise to 100. It reported similar trends in 12th for all subjects.
...
...
There have been reports of nearly 50% students, who had topped 12th board exams in the state, having failed in the first semester in Anna University—reported by an RTI query by educationist JP Gandhi.
There is a visible quality downgrade in basic, high school and professional education. But how and where did this begin? The answer could be the burgeoning private schools. With no entrance exams any more, the standard is 12th marks in board exams, and there is a craze to achieve highest marks, as successive school enrolment in these schools depend on marks by current batches.
...

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 09:17

OT
When ppl like JP Gandhi become "educationist" then that is the issue.

When Briturds came,brahmanas of a certain type(good karma/vaasanas)took off.That created envy/bitterness among some non brahmanas in TN.This was fuelled by briturds who threw ghee into the fire.

Because some brahmanas in TN are fair skinned,the brahmana dialect is distinct and because economy was stunted during briturd rule and because tamils had lost political soverignity in 14th century and because telugu palayakkaras had real fears about democracy,the anti brahmana narrative took root.

Yet in India things are never stark.Always Hindu values make us rooted and look beyond only the present.Empowerment is critical.A larger educated population is necessary(though not sufficient) for attaining critical mass.It is wrong to confuse capability at school and extrapolate it to the much more complex real world.Tamils are not babes to be always led by simplistic propogaandu and telugu palayakkaras were not one dimensional personalities.After all they had come to TN as victors.

Prof PV Indiresan(former Director IITM) noted that discriminating against a numerically small community is easy but the issue becomes complicated when more and more people enter the market.

ADMK which empowered the poorer people and tamizh dominant castes complicated the issue by even greater populism.Tamils who have been fed bizzarre lemurian ideas of Indian/Hindu history and social justice think it is just a straight forward thing to extrapolate tamizh ideas of social justice to pan indian level.

Yet to be fair there are tamils/telugu tamils who know that lemurian ideas are nonsense and it is these who are the majority.

TN has created massive capacity at the engg college/medical college level(from teaching shops to decent institutions like VIT)and thousands of other state(andhra,bihar,NE,KL) have utilised whatever TN has to offer and they have been treated scrupulously fairly as our people(which they indeed are).At one level we can call TN world view as episodal or determined by instant gratification but that is an oversimplification as it was ADMK which allowed pvt engg colleges(partly due to brahmana appeals).DMK with its ossified justice party model of TN was little interested in any big picture other than cutting down brahmanas to size.

putnanja,
Is this not the broad theme in KA(without the anti brahmana venom/lemurian history)?Thus pvt engg colleges/pvt medical colleges first took root in Bengaluru,Mysore,Coastal KA while vokkaligas and lingayats started many many colleges?

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 09:55

Lilo ji,
There is only politics in the admissions issue and nothing else.

In the real world we take into account the fears and anxieties.

TN is an extreme case but other states too have these anxieties.

Really I dont have much to say because it comes down to identity issues.

There are three substantial issues-quality schooling,appropriate criteria for admission,quality UG programmes.We are concerned about the middle part.The other two are more important,the middle one is NOT UNIMPORTANT.

I repeat the issue is of politics-large numbers seeking admission for relatively few seats+Hindu diversity.If all states agree on high quality education that would be best.

My take is-If everybody comes on board fine,otherwise persuasion is good.otoh I have no issues with using coercion for uniformity and fairness.(saama,dhana ...are realities of life)But the other two components-good schooling and more quality universities are more important.It is also about Hindu identity/diversity.I can only keep repeating the same.Education cannot be divorced from politics.

Personally,I am from TN.I come from a community which was once more aligned to national entrance tests than any other community in India.And you know the reasons.Instinctively,I will support national tests.But over time we realise diversity and try to understand other views.Say if TN wants exemption,other states can still opt for it.Anyway national institutions will always opt for JEE/NEET.

The question then arises whether states opting out of NEET get unfair benefits because TN students might then benefit from institutions in other states opting for NEET while TN would close its doors to NEET.

The reality there are hundreds of engg and tens of medical colleges in TN and many more are coming into TN to these 'institutions'.Or a rough reciprocal number can be set aside in TN colleges, There is the question of quality.Nothing stops other states from improving quality of intake through NEET.Let TN have its own method to improve quality.

All I am saying is let there be choice-JEE/tailor made tests like in case of Chennai Mathematical Institute(GOI funded)/state level tests.

For instance in US,admissions are made to University not to a department.The students chose their concentrations.A prospective Electrical Engg student need not take chemistry courses.We cannot afford such luxuries given our numbers and economic development.Govt institutions will have less flexibility but nothing stops a CSE dept in a pvt university from not considering chemistry grades or a Bio Technology/Ceramics/Printing from giving less weightage to mathematics or ignoring it.Infact they might prefer to give different aptitude tests.In olden days,candidates to IIT could opt for Engg Drawing paper.It is possible genuine pvt universities might opt for innovative ways of identifying relevant skills for the particular course.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 10:03

In this very thread there are very good discussions by GD,RB,Stan,Bade,ramana ji on JEE etc.

ramana ji says that IITs are about problem solving.Stan said that JEE/IIT model was too unique to last.Stan by his own admission in the forum is from IITM.

England had Tripos/ICS exams.They discontinued Tripos I(something like JEE)because it served no higher purpose.

In US high SAT subject scores/AP(Advanced Placement) are essential but there is no ranking.And the tests are much more sensible.Cambridge Maths/Physics entrance tests are again sensible.And even they(Ivy League) toy with Indian American children.Then goras have fvcked the world and they dont have the crores we have in the queue.And most importantly the trillion identities the briturds have unleashed.

JEE is today getting more and more convoluted and I say this on the authority of two mathematics professors from IITB.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 13:13

In US,great corporations and phianthropists have donated billions of dollars to pvt universities.In India,people become famous and make money after starting colleges.

No national entrance test increases no of seats or quota policy.

With all this,there is no doubt a national test is the order of the day for middle class/poorer people applying/writing hundred tests.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Lilo » 07 Sep 2017 13:31

svenkat wrote:Lilo ji,
There is only politics in the admissions issue and nothing else.

In the real world we take into account the fears and anxieties.

TN is an extreme case but other states too have these anxieties.

Really I dont have much to say because it comes down to identity issues.

There are three substantial issues-quality schooling,appropriate criteria for admission,quality UG programmes.We are concerned about the middle part.The other two are more important,the middle one is NOT UNIMPORTANT.

I repeat the issue is of politics-large numbers seeking admission for relatively few seats+Hindu diversity.If all states agree on high quality education that would be best.

My take is-If everybody comes on board fine,otherwise persuasion is good.otoh I have no issues with using coercion for uniformity and fairness.(saama,dhana ...are realities of life)But the other two components-good schooling and more quality universities are more important.It is also about Hindu identity/diversity.I can only keep repeating the same.Education cannot be divorced from politics.

Personally,I am from TN.I come from a community which was once more aligned to national entrance tests than any other community in India.And you know the reasons.Instinctively,I will support national tests.But over time we realise diversity and try to understand other views.Say if TN wants exemption,other states can still opt for it.Anyway national institutions will always opt for JEE/NEET.

The question then arises whether states opting out of NEET get unfair benefits because TN students might then benefit from institutions in other states opting for NEET while TN would close its doors to NEET.

The reality there are hundreds of engg and tens of medical colleges in TN and many more are coming into TN to these 'institutions'.Or a rough reciprocal number can be set aside in TN colleges, There is the question of quality.Nothing stops other states from improving quality of intake through NEET.Let TN have its own method to improve quality.

All I am saying is let there be choice-JEE/tailor made tests like in case of Chennai Mathematical Institute(GOI funded)/state level tests.

For instance in US,admissions are made to University not to a department.The students chose their concentrations.A prospective Electrical Engg student need not take chemistry courses.We cannot afford such luxuries given our numbers and economic development.Govt institutions will have less flexibility but nothing stops a CSE dept in a pvt university from not considering chemistry grades or a Bio Technology/Ceramics/Printing from giving less weightage to mathematics or ignoring it.Infact they might prefer to give different aptitude tests.In olden days,candidates to IIT could opt for Engg Drawing paper.It is possible genuine pvt universities might opt for innovative ways of identifying relevant skills for the particular course.
Svenkat ji,
If you want to resort to the above(by now your trademark)parochial political arguments anyway don't post articles like that Swarajya one aiming to give some logical sheen to the same parochial exeptionalism of DK gangs.That article anyway is tripe so it's double loss.
Your Parochial arguments that professional education must be predicated on politics or political ideology of TN etc and centre must not step in is useless.Education is in concurrent list get over it.Central laws will prevail when they clash with the parochial state ones.The state law will prevail only when the centre acknowledges that the state law is better by a presidential assent.
This time the centre is prepared to see through NEET till the end and even Philip's threats of anti-hindi explosion in TN will not deter the govt from what needs to be done.Surprisingly the govt probably after paying rent obtained some handle on the hizzoners of SC who are singing the right tune this one instance w/o putting a monkey's wrench into the wheel.

This time I may give the benefit of doubt to the setup at Swarajya who being based at Kovai would have been forced to propitiate the preceptors of DK ideology by such rare farticles doing randirona against the dutty eeevil centre.But it won't be the case next time.

The unnamed author (probably) Prashant Bhattacharjee too I know personally as a junior from the past and his previous articles on his website are nothing out of ordinary (and matched his sound thinking style when I knew him).For example the one article which was published before the current one on reservation for girls in IITs was balanced enough since it was directly lifted from a published article from his website learningpoint.

This one however, his first article he has written directly for Swarajya as it so happens at a time when the randirona against NEET by DK gangs was at the peaks is clearly showing that he has been press ganged by Swarajya to produce such tripe.

Raking up the well known mismanagement at central boards to do an equal equal to the far worse State Boards (mainly the TN stateboard) and then claiming that the admirably run (given the vast logistic scale in a huge populated country like ours)JEE,NEET,CAT,GATE etc (and ultimately NTS which subsumes these central competitive exams under one umbrella) as worthless is such a idiotically funny convulsion of logic.

He even goes against the grain of his well written ORF article on the state of 12th boards in India where he gives the example of how passpercentages swing up or down by 30-40% from whether Kalyan Singh is out of power or Makkhi/Mulayam govts came to power in UP state board or similarly the Punjab state board.

Having written this , now giving the conclusion suiting the motivated agenda of Swarajya that all central competitive testing like JEE,GATE,CAT,UPSC etc is the worst thing to happen because the central 12th boards are mismanaged and concluding that all should devolve to the states ,universities etc is the worst form of presstitutism.

Simply put instead of doing a normal logical analysis he did what the editor wanted him to do and subjected his mind to editorializing.

PS:Instead of appeals to authority by dropping names be it Ramana ji,Stan ji or GD ji or RD ji or some PV indiresan who repeatedly props up - it is better if you are able to actually use their arguments to give a logical edge to your parochial claims.

This is a better than your current posing using equivocation aiming to give a semblance of split thinking.
Its not proving that you empathize with the logical side with a national consciousness as versus the parochial side.
Stick to one side and try proving your logic is superior.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 13:51

Lilo ji,
My last word on this already in the earlier post.

With all this,there is no doubt a national test is the order of the day for middle class/poorer people applying/writing hundred tests.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 15:14

My refer to RB,Stan,GD,Prof PV Indiresan is not mere appeal to authority.

There is a world beyond entrance exams.

Also Prof PVIndiresan was former Director IITM.He was very much in support of entrance exams and merit.Infact he spoke out against mindless govt interference.I quoted him for something else.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 07 Sep 2017 20:14

svenkat wrote:putnanja,
Is this not the broad theme in KA(without the anti brahmana venom/lemurian history)?Thus pvt engg colleges/pvt medical colleges first took root in Bengaluru,Mysore,Coastal KA while vokkaligas and lingayats started many many colleges?


I don't think so. In Karnataka, there is no broad anti-brahminism or any anti-caste as such. Karnataka has always had history of private educational institutions. In fact, BMS college of engineering in Bangalore was the first private engineering college in the country, established in early 1940s. There are also various mutts of different castes which were always involved in education. Many mutts even today provide free lodging and education till 10th to many poorer sections without any bias. So many of them already had schools/colleges affiliated to them. So it was a natural progression to venture into degree & professional colleges too. And not just Bangalore/Mysore area. For e.g., KLE education society in Belgaum has quite a few educational institutions and is a well regarded society (its headed by a politician though) for few decades now. And the politicians across parties also encouraged private higher educational institutions, including professional courses. At one time, Karnataka had the 2nd highest number of engineering & medical colleges after Maharashtra. Now that many states have privatised professional courses, Karnataka doesn't attract as many out of state students as earlier, but still there are quite a few who come to Karnataka. In fact, due to the glut of engineering colleges, I remember reading a report earlier this month where few hundreds of engineering colleges are getting shut down.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 22:10

http://hawkeyeview.blogspot.in/2017/09/tamil-nadus-upper-funnel-education.html

Tamil Nadu has one of the best education strategies in the country. Let me start with an analogy that will help you appreciate this.

Imagine you are an e-commerce website owner. You have a webpage (like amazon.com or flipkart.com) that allows people to visit the webpage, prospect products, maybe add-to-cart and eventually buy. Think of your webpage as a funnel. The top of the funnel is people visiting the webpage. Mid-funnel is people prospecting products. Bottom funnel is people doing "Add-to-Cart". You have couple of important strategy options for digital marketing this webpage. Strategy 1: You adopt an upper funnel strategy. Your digital marketing efforts drives as much of the population to simply visit your webpage. It is prospected by many, and then a small subset will add-to-cart and a subset of that will complete purchase. Strategy 2: You adopt a bottom-funnel strategy. Your digital marketing efforts specifically targets people who are more likely to "add-to-cart". In effect - you only want those people who will take the "add-to-cart" action to visit your webpage. The traffic coming to your webpage is much lower, but those who come will most likely convert.

People pick from these two strategies based on their constraints and priorities. If you want to keep your server capacity cost low - you pick strategy 2; if you want brand awareness of your webpage to be high - you pick strategy 1. Here is the key thing - the definition of traffic quality - depends on what you think of success. Strategy 1 could define quality as (number of people who know about my webpage)/(total population). This strategy focuses on more people being exposed to your webpage so that they have a habit of visiting when the need arises. Strategy 2 defines quality as (people who actually purchase)/(people who visit my webpage). There is no consistent definition of quality. It depends on what you, as the owner of the web page, want to do. It is dangerous to evaluate one strategy with metrics used by another strategy.

Tamil Nadu has an upper funnel strategy for college education. It wants as much of the population to either (a) get exposed to college education or (b) pass college and get exposed to professional career. It does not specifically optimize or even care about how many people eventually convert to great jobs in the end. It wants to make people going to college a habit, passing college a natural thing and hopes that this virtuous cycle habit formation leads to both direct and indirect positive effects. The definition of quality is more social - "what % of population get exposure to college education". Thats why it has a 12th pass % of 92%. Karnataka has a 12th pass % of 52%. It is adopting lower funnel optimization. Its definition of quality is (people who get jobs)/(people who get to college). Therefore, it is okay with a large chunk of its population not experiencing college or a professional career. While this is horrible for Karnataka's population, thats the state's strategy.

Tamil Nadu has consciously made passing 12th std easy, consciously allowed liberal centums and high marks in Math, Physics, Chemistry, Biology. It optimizes to put as many people in a position of applying to college. BITS, RECs, Delhi Colleges, and top colleges in other states have relied on 12th marks as a basis for admission. To help its students get into these non-TN colleges - Tamil Nadu has ensured that its students stand the best chance relative to students from other states. In parallel and quite obviously, it has increased its own server capacity in terms of number of colleges within TN to ensure the infrastructure support for its strategy. Now voila! - Magic. TN has not only pumped in its students into its own rapidly growing list of colleges but also into any available seat in non-TN colleges. Think of the virtuous cycle effects here. When BITS switched to normalization (which is (your mark)/(your state first mark)) - Tamil Nadu increased the "if you have to be above 90% its better that you be 96%" density to counter that strategy. It is a deliberate strategy to give its students the best chance everywhere. It has had flagrant success in exposing students to college education and embarrassing defeats to those exposed. But it has made sure getting to and completing college is as automatic a habit as brushing your teeth. It is quite a stunning feat. And it has taken all castes along in this journey - dalits, brahmins, thevars, MBCs, OBCs - the whole kitchen sink. Everybody has prospered. No one has been left behind. The country did not wise up to it until now. So we have NEET - a competitive move from other states to shut us down. Tamil Nadu's counter should have been "Fair enough. Bring it on". What it doesn't need now is a ill-informed intra-state caste war. That will only make it weaker. What it needs is a new game plan.

To conclude. In a philosophical decision of "Should I pass a person who is only semi-likely to succeed" or "Should I fail a person who is semi likely to succeed" - Tamil Nadu has reduced false negatives (type II errors) and increased false positives (type I errors). It is morally and ethically the right strategy from a social justice point of view. This fantastic strategy has caused (a) a state with abnormally high self-esteem where almost all people have college degrees and most have professional degrees (b) the false positives - i.e. people who fail to secure professional jobs still be useful to society by finding other ways to survive as a college graduate and (c) a generation of highly valuable "graduate educated" parents to the next batch of TN children entering school. Lastly, it has allowed me, a late bloomer in education, to prosper later in a career. I could've been easily discarded as not good enough if I were a student in Karnataka. I owe my life to TN's strategy. This chance that I got is what is being assaulted by NEET. It stops the state from determining its strategy. Thats why NEET is poison and thats why TN should innovate a new strategy to get around it.


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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 22:10

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sq5qjr

Is an abnormally high GER in higher education as in TN necessarily a good thing?


I recently came across a blogpost where the author argues that it's good thing. You can read the post here: http://hawkeyeview.blogspot.in/2017/09/ ... ation.html

The author says that TN has had a deliberate strategy of being overgenerous with evaluation of its high schools students, as evidenced by a very high pass percentage and a distribution curve that is not only skewed to the extreme right but peaks after 95% (even at 100% in some science subjects!).

It also has an extensive network of general education and professional colleges that can absorb a high proportion of this output of high school graduates, so that 45% of the people in the relevant age group 18-22 are in college, getting college education. This is said to be the upper funnel strategy, which is normally used in the context of a sales cycle, where people are targeted at the entry level.

It is also agreed that the quality of education they receive is, for the most part, very low. What this means is that most of the graduates, up to 85% in some disciplines, do not possess the skills and experience that they are expected to have, going by their college degree in a subject. It obviously means that most of them do not find employment where such skills would be required. This is also a feature of the reality around us that can hardly be disputed. It is also borne about by studies done on recent engineering graduates in TN, where around 85% of them were found unfit for employment.

Yet, in terms of "social" criteria - defined as exposure to college education - this very high GER is said to be good thing, despite the grievous shortcomings, amounting to failure of the higher education system, as outlined in the above paragraph.


The beneficial outcomes aer is summarized by the author as below:

"This fantastic strategy has caused (a) a state with abnormally high self-esteem where almost all people have college degrees and most have professional degrees (b) the false positives - i.e. people who fail to secure professional jobs still be useful to society by finding other ways to survive as a college graduate and (c) a generation of highly valuable "graduate educated" parents to the next batch of TN children entering school."

Let me present an alternative, critical look at the system, based on what are widely agreed as features of the higher education system in Tamilnadu.

First, I don't agree that these students are at the upper funnel.

In that case, they would remain prospects, and nobody pays anything to be a sales prospect. The fact is, they are actually entering a transaction and buying something when they enroll in a college, paying good money ~80% of the time, without any subsidy

Second, the prospecting is not done by society, that is by an education system that is State-owned and managed. In fact, an overwhelming proportion of colleges in the state are privately owned and managed, both in the general education and professional education categories.

In terms of management, Tamil Nadu colleges are dominated by the private unaided colleges, forming 88.5 percent of all colleges in the State, followed by 5.8 percent owned by Government and 5.6 percent that are private-aided. (2012)

In 2012, 78.8 percent of the students were enrolled in private colleges, 11.5 percent in private aided colleges and 9.7 percent Government colleges.

Of 552 engineering colleges in the state, 521 are self-financing colleges.

So it can be safely generalized that in 80% of the cases, students enrolled in the higher education system in TN are transacting with private commercial entities.

Let us look at the nature of these transactions for what they really are i.e. commercial.

These private colleges target students, some of whom may not really be qualified to pursue the course of study they are enrolled for, in terms of aptitude and ability. We have the misleading generosity of the State Board to thank for this.


Next, due to poor infrastructure and lack of adequate teaching resources, the quality of education delivered is poor, leading to the kind of ineffective and unemployable graduates that we talked about earlier. The poor infrastructure and lack of teaching resource derive straight from the need for profiteering. This is done across the board by private educational institutions as is overcharging of students. Admitting students of poor ability and aptitude is also oriented towards swelling the top and bottom-line. If the student pays good money for a course of study that he will never be able to hack, why should it be the management’s problem? They are only interested in maximizing occupancy and meeting their business goals.

Why are private colleges and universities allowed to operate like this? There is no proper State-level policy to regulate private sector participation in higher education. A state with 550 engineering colleges still prefers to depend on AICTE for performing quality audit on its colleges. The more important reason is that the managements of all private colleges and universities are politically connected. Sometimes, they are merely the benami face of the political system.

Looking at all this, it is hard to escape two conclusions:

On the supply side, there is a nexus of the state, the political system and college managements to maximize extraction from the public in the name of providing an education.

On the demand side, hapless students are being subjected to transactions that can only be termed criminal deceit, also in the name of providing education. The students are simply not getting what they have paid for.

Both combine to produce this abnormally high GER. Once you have flooded the job market with graduates who would take up jobs as sales assistants in sari shops, then you are setting an entry-level benchmarks for those jobs. People would be too scared to skip a college education because the prospect of not getting even that job is frightening indeed.

==

How anyone can look at the tragic outcome of a giant confidence trick played on students and parents by a nexus of private commercial interests and corrupt agents of the state and portray it as socially beneficial is baffling to me.

I think it’s a very vile and untenable strategy and its long-term social effects are likely to be really adverse for individuals and for the cause of education itself.


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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 22:14

putnanja ji,
How is KA reacting to NEET? Are the students/institutions confident about facing the new exam?

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 07 Sep 2017 22:26

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/TN-accounts-for-45-of-growth-in-education-loans/articleshow/54023611.cms

Tamil Nadu has generated 45% of all incre mental education loans between FY13 and FY15. Of the total loan growth of Rs 6,597 crore in these two years, loans in Tamil Nadu have grown by Rs 2,969 crore.


The ‘bad’ side of education loans

With SBI selling its portfolio of NPAs to an asset reconstruction firm, students feel the heat.

With the State Bank of India selling a large number of its ‘bad’ education loans to Reliance Asset Reconstruction Company, defaulters have now started feeling the heat from the corporate giant.

A Union Finance Ministry document of January 2015 says Kerala and Tamil Nadu together have extended close to 40 per cent of all student loans in India. In actual terms, banks in Tamil Nadu had given Rs. 16,381 crore, by far the highest in the country.

Documents obtained from the State Level Bankers Committee reveal that the total education loan NPA burden of banks in Tamil Nadu was Rs. 1,875.56 crore as on September 2015.

This was 11.55 per cent of all education loans forwarded, an increase from 11.33 per cent in June 2015.

Observers see a larger issue. C.H. Venkatachalam, General Secretary of the All India Bank Employees' Federation, says that with the explosion of engineering colleges in Tamil Nadu, the Gross Enrolment Ratio in higher education has shot up.

“The institutions actively encouraged the students to take up loans to complete their engineering studies. But given the low standard of these colleges, the students find it hard to get jobs and get caught in this vicious debt cycle,” he claims.

The trade union leader alleges that asset restructuring companies focus on student loans as they are “soft targets”.

Many defaulters who spoke to The Hindu on condition of anonymity were engineering graduates.

One such graduate from Vaniyambadi said he finished his engineering in 2009 but could not find a job for five years.

“Now, I have letters served stating that I need to pay up. I work in a local company for a meagre salary and don’t know how to handle this,” he said.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 08 Sep 2017 08:21

svenkat wrote:putnanja ji,
How is KA reacting to NEET? Are the students/institutions confident about facing the new exam?


There is absolutely no opposition. No one has opposed it. Karnataka also didn't even ask for exemption. It went smoothly both last year and this year. Couple of my relatives took NEET this year and they walked me through the process.

Karnataka always had entrance exams, so it wasn't an issue. And whether you write the Karnataka CET or NEET, you are basically competing with the same students of your state, as for govt quota only students from Karnataka are considered. In fact, many probably welcomed it as they earlier had to write CET by karnataka govt, and COMEDK by private medical colleges. Now, all of them have to follow NEET, so it is easier in a way.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 08 Sep 2017 10:00

No one opposed it in Karnataka. If anything they welcomed it. NET brings order and duds don't get seats just because of political connections and money power

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 08 Sep 2017 11:57

prasannasimha ji,
thank you for the response.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 08 Sep 2017 16:26

As I predicted a whack in the pants from the SC.
If the politicos from TN though they can latch on to this they were mistaken. NEET was a supreme court directive by a multi judge bench - a virtual constitutional bench so anyone thinking they can play with it is mistaken.
It will be enforced. If CMC Vellore does not comply they will get a sticj behind their holy Musharraf.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/632082/ensure-no-agitation-takes-place.html

Ensure no agitation takes place over NEET: SC to TN govt
Press Trust of India, New Delhi, Sep 8 2017, 16:13 IST
The SC said that any activity that causes normal life to be stalled should be booked under the appropriate laws. DH file photo.
The SC said that any activity that causes normal life to be stalled should be booked under the appropriate laws. DH file photo.
The Supreme Court today directed the Tamil Nadu government to ensure that no agitation takes place in the state over the NEET examination issue.

The apex court directed that anybody involved in any kind of activity that stalls normal life of citizens in the state should be booked under the appropriate law.

A bench headed by Chief Justice Dipak Misra passed the direction observing that the NEET examination had already been upheld by the apex court.

"As an interim measure, it is directed that it shall be the obligation of the chief secretary and principal secretary of Tamil Nadu to ensure that no agitation takes place in relation to the NEET examination that has been upheld by this court," the bench, also comprising A M Khanwilkar and D Y Chandrachud, said.

The top court issued a notice to Tamil Nadu government on a plea seeking a direction to the state to maintain law and order situation and ensure that no agitation, strike or protest by political parties or individuals be allowed against the NEET examination.

The petitioner had also submitted that normal life of citizens was gravely affected due to the ongoing protests on the issue in the state. The bench will now hear the matter on September 18.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 09 Sep 2017 00:46

The whole NEET thing sadly reeks of the old Congress attempts to reign in TN in the way past.
Historically TN students will find a way to game/dominate the NEET as usual,
at which point the rules will be changed again.

Svenkat,

The fellow is posting this like there is no history of what TN education was like before Higher education was liberalized.
The horror show back then should give these guys pause but they are ignoring history like it does not exist to serve their ends, the same elitist BS that was claimed in the 1960’s is making a comeback.

Everyone who wants a college education should be able to get one.
I really don’t care about rank/score/entrance exams/etc.
This is pointless shortage style thinking.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 09 Sep 2017 04:16

that is ridiculous and divorced from the reality of how subsidized seats work in govt colleges.

Let govt privatize all colleges and let it be a true free market and then you can say "anyone wants college education, find what you want out there in the free market".

but as long as it is subsidized from tax dollars, it will always be controlled for political reason under the guise of social justice and protecting rural students, protecting tamil interests blah blah...

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 09 Sep 2017 10:28

Yup! Thats the old congress system for you. Create a shortage and then watch all the fellows fight in the streets, then come in as peace maker. Why do you care who gets a subsidized seat? Because you want only merit fellows to get subsidy. And then you rig the merit system to suit your end. This is reality, I agree its not going to change. But we shouldn't pretend it is some great favor being done to the nation.

dilli-billi's are hijacking the higher education system again and produce more worthless dishum-dishum...

It is the same elitist BS that got us into so many useless GOI dead ends. Honestly you would think history does not exist the way folks want to go back to 1960.

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby csubash » 09 Sep 2017 22:17

prasannasimha wrote:No one opposed it in Karnataka. If anything they welcomed it. NET brings order and duds don't get seats just because of political connections and money power


Another brilliant assumption from you. Dud's who used to get into TN medical school now from their own rubbish board have to grow up & face the highly evolved species from their north who show them what one needs to read, which exam to write, what language to speak, which culture to follow. Truly a federal state !!!!

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 09 Sep 2017 23:06

^ Who says that everyone is a Dud- why such an inferiority complex and assumption. It is a fact that there are duds getting into private medical colleges by using solely money power and political connections.That is where NEET restores order. Also funny thing is it suddenly becomes a NS divide when there is none - do you even know where I am from to make such conclusions ? Just goes to show your blessed bias
NEET maintains a uniform standard. No one is robbing TN of their seats. Not one seat that belongs to Tamil Nadu in the past years has been taken by the central quota - the allocation has now become centralized whereas the distribution continues to be as per state norms.Previously the private medical colleges and various institutions would allocate it at their whims and fancies and to the highest bidder or to give favor to politicians - is that OK. Are you a teacher ? I have personally seen such duds (not necessarily from TN hell even from my state)being admitted and wonder how on earth such students even passed their 10th standard exams and it is glaringly obvious what goes on.
There was one particular college (which was exposed) which guaranteed MBBS , MS and MCh seat for a student at the time of admission of MBBS. How is that remotely possible and even justifiable when people from TN itself in government colleges are struggling to get admissions through the proper route just because they cannot pay more money ? Not all students are bad but there is an increasing number in private colleges happening over the past decade with rigged exit exams etc etc that just had to stop.
This is being made spuriously into NS divide and all that nonsense. What is being done is a more transparent selection and allocation method. That is all. The rest is all sour grapes.
Cry all you want- time was given to all states to comply and it is a Supreme Court order by a multi judge bench- you have to live with it as it is the law of the land and was response to the Balkrishna fiasco .

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Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 10 Sep 2017 10:00

I guess in TN politics, crying NS divide is easier than actually understanding the problem. I am from Karnataka and have relatives who wrote NEET this year. There is zero protests against NEET. Neither is there any in Telangana. Haven't heard of any protests against NEET in Kerala and AP. So either TN is the only true-South state, or everyone is conspiring against TN :rotfl:

People have to get a grip over themselves instead of raising NS/aryan-dravid/hindu-musilim/language etc cards at drop of a hat when the arguments don't go their way. Just demeans the whole point of debate and discussion.


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