Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Education System

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Schmidt
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Aug 2016 08:02

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Schmidt » 10 Sep 2017 12:14

It's quite amusing actually

Congis in power in KA , Commies in power in Kerala , but not a pipsqueak from these worthies in these states against NEET

Whereas in TN these mofos gang up and denounce NEET stridently from every street corner

Yesterday there was a TV interview with Thirumavalavan ( VCK ) - the anchor neatly ( pun intended ) dismantled the mofos arguments ( that NEET is against poorer / rural students as well as discriminates against State Board students )

In the end the turd kept saying he is against NEET as he feels it is against federalism

The data from this years NEET results show that more students have made it to medical from Rural areas , as well State Board students form 65% of the selected candidates. Also the reservation system still holds , so there is no impact on OBCs/SC/ST students.

The anchor also brought up the issue of CMC and other minority institutions that flout the reservation quotas , all Thiru cd say was that this is legally allowed and he was not aware of this earlier.


If you put these turds under the mat and ask pointed questions then they really have no arguments left.

csubash
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 07 Apr 2007 04:10

Re: Indian Education System

Postby csubash » 10 Sep 2017 22:06

prasannasimha wrote:^ Who says that everyone is a Dud- why such an inferiority complex and assumption. It is a fact that there are duds getting into private medical colleges by using solely money power and political connections.That is where NEET restores order. Also funny thing is it suddenly becomes a NS divide when there is none - do you even know where I am from to make such conclusions ? Just goes to show your blessed bias
NEET maintains a uniform standard. No one is robbing TN of their seats. Not one seat that belongs to Tamil Nadu in the past years has been taken by the central quota - the allocation has now become centralized whereas the distribution continues to be as per state norms.Previously the private medical colleges and various institutions would allocate it at their whims and fancies and to the highest bidder or to give favor to politicians - is that OK. Are you a teacher ? I have personally seen such duds (not necessarily from TN hell even from my state)being admitted and wonder how on earth such students even passed their 10th standard exams and it is glaringly obvious what goes on.
There was one particular college (which was exposed) which guaranteed MBBS , MS and MCh seat for a student at the time of admission of MBBS. How is that remotely possible and even justifiable when people from TN itself in government colleges are struggling to get admissions through the proper route just because they cannot pay more money ? Not all students are bad but there is an increasing number in private colleges happening over the past decade with rigged exit exams etc etc that just had to stop.
This is being made spuriously into NS divide and all that nonsense. What is being done is a more transparent selection and allocation method. That is all. The rest is all sour grapes.
Cry all you want- time was given to all states to comply and it is a Supreme Court order by a multi judge bench- you have to live with it as it is the law of the land and was response to the Balkrishna fiasco .


Interesting. TN Government admits students on medical school(govt quota) by merit based on state board marks. You can conduct any test for private colleges & deemed universities - nobody cares. The goat here is a test conducted by a central government agency is said to be of superior quality & apparently identifies good students than a state government conducted exam !!! An example of a private deemed university giving out MBBS, MS, MCh seat & pass given to a dud as a justification of an MCQ based admission for whole of India - nice try. Pray who gave permission for the deemed university, who gave permission for MBBS or MCh to these universities, who inspected these universities - all by central government agencies."Inferiority Complex" - Inferiority complex against blessed souls like you !!! "Are you a teacher?" - Don't pass comments on what you don't know. Law of the land - oops - law of the land doesn't apply when supreme court orders to release water but rather burn buses & water.

csubash
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 07 Apr 2007 04:10

Re: Indian Education System

Postby csubash » 10 Sep 2017 22:08

Schmidt wrote:It's quite amusing actually

Congis in power in KA , Commies in power in Kerala , but not a pipsqueak from these worthies in these states against NEET

Whereas in TN these mofos gang up and denounce NEET stridently from every street corner

Yesterday there was a TV interview with Thirumavalavan ( VCK ) - the anchor neatly ( pun intended ) dismantled the mofos arguments ( that NEET is against poorer / rural students as well as discriminates against State Board students )

In the end the turd kept saying he is against NEET as he feels it is against federalism

The data from this years NEET results show that more students have made it to medical from Rural areas , as well State Board students form 65% of the selected candidates. Also the reservation system still holds , so there is no impact on OBCs/SC/ST students.

The anchor also brought up the issue of CMC and other minority institutions that flout the reservation quotas , all Thiru cd say was that this is legally allowed and he was not aware of this earlier.


If you put these turds under the mat and ask pointed questions then they really have no arguments left.


Mind your words Schmidt - Anybody opposing NEET is not a "mofo". If you can't maintain civility don't post.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 10 Sep 2017 23:18

csubash wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:^ Who says that everyone is a Dud- why such an inferiority complex and assumption. It is a fact that there are duds getting into private medical colleges by using solely money power and political connections.That is where NEET restores order. Also funny thing is it suddenly becomes a NS divide when there is none - do you even know where I am from to make such conclusions ? Just goes to show your blessed bias
NEET maintains a uniform standard. No one is robbing TN of their seats. Not one seat that belongs to Tamil Nadu in the past years has been taken by the central quota - the allocation has now become centralized whereas the distribution continues to be as per state norms.Previously the private medical colleges and various institutions would allocate it at their whims and fancies and to the highest bidder or to give favor to politicians - is that OK. Are you a teacher ? I have personally seen such duds (not necessarily from TN hell even from my state)being admitted and wonder how on earth such students even passed their 10th standard exams and it is glaringly obvious what goes on.
There was one particular college (which was exposed) which guaranteed MBBS , MS and MCh seat for a student at the time of admission of MBBS. How is that remotely possible and even justifiable when people from TN itself in government colleges are struggling to get admissions through the proper route just because they cannot pay more money ? Not all students are bad but there is an increasing number in private colleges happening over the past decade with rigged exit exams etc etc that just had to stop.
This is being made spuriously into NS divide and all that nonsense. What is being done is a more transparent selection and allocation method. That is all. The rest is all sour grapes.
Cry all you want- time was given to all states to comply and it is a Supreme Court order by a multi judge bench- you have to live with it as it is the law of the land and was response to the Balkrishna fiasco .


Interesting. TN Government admits students on medical school(govt quota) by merit based on state board marks. You can conduct any test for private colleges & deemed universities - nobody cares. The goat here is a test conducted by a central government agency is said to be of superior quality & apparently identifies good students than a state government conducted exam !!! An example of a private deemed university giving out MBBS, MS, MCh seat & pass given to a dud as a justification of an MCQ based admission for whole of India - nice try. Pray who gave permission for the deemed university, who gave permission for MBBS or MCh to these universities, who inspected these universities - all by central government agencies."Inferiority Complex" - Inferiority complex against blessed souls like you !!! "Are you a teacher?" - Don't pass comments on what you don't know. Law of the land - oops - law of the land doesn't apply when supreme court orders to release water but rather burn buses & water.
;

Hah again a poor try. Pray tell me who ordered NEET not the central Government and what are you so afraid off- an exam is to evaluate and frankly if you are worth your szlat it doesnt make a difference if it is a cnetral or state conducting the exam .If you are good you will do well. Water was released as per interim orders and guess what that is in no way related to this discussion and that is still subjudice aand this is not. Again - are you intop active teaching - if not well you just do not know the problems teachers are facing dealing with such students.It is a problem and has vitiated the entire learning ecosystem and guess what - the comments are tru wether you like it or not.
NEET is the best thing that has happened to students who are honest and well read and have substance. They do not have to cry over it.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9818
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2017 23:33

Zynda wrote: ...
The above article emphasizes a lot on SolidEdge CAD package because it was sponsored by Siemens. BTW, the article is written by a practising industry CAD manager.

I understand what you are saying. That said, solidedge is a very expensive package but it also probably the most capable. For some reason pro/e has gone to third place vis a vis solidedge and Catia.

Bottom line - you learn on autodesk or solidworks which may not translate into employability at a solidedge shop or a Catia shop. Strike that; maybe Catia as dassault owns solid works now and acis file format and the library API which is propertiary.


All of the are programmable using Python. Some people used to use scheme and some others basic . But now everybody has built Python support.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9818
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2017 23:39

aakashrj wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/education/centre-to-provide-monthly-fellowship-of-rs-70000-for-iit-and-iisc-bengaluru-phd-researchers-4804210/

The Centre will provide Rs 70,000 as monthly fellowship to those researchers doing their PhDs in IITs or IISc, ...


What are their responsibilities? Mtechs get stipend too but to not have an resposibilities. In the US, they either need to assist the a professor as TAs or work in a research lab of the professor who offers them an RA ship (though it is rare for just masters people).

csubash
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 07 Apr 2007 04:10

Re: Indian Education System

Postby csubash » 10 Sep 2017 23:42

prasannasimha wrote:
csubash wrote:
Interesting. TN Government admits students on medical school(govt quota) by merit based on state board marks. You can conduct any test for private colleges & deemed universities - nobody cares. The goat here is a test conducted by a central government agency is said to be of superior quality & apparently identifies good students than a state government conducted exam !!! An example of a private deemed university giving out MBBS, MS, MCh seat & pass given to a dud as a justification of an MCQ based admission for whole of India - nice try. Pray who gave permission for the deemed university, who gave permission for MBBS or MCh to these universities, who inspected these universities - all by central government agencies."Inferiority Complex" - Inferiority complex against blessed souls like you !!! "Are you a teacher?" - Don't pass comments on what you don't know. Law of the land - oops - law of the land doesn't apply when supreme court orders to release water but rather burn buses & water.
;

Hah again a poor try. Pray tell me who ordered NEET not the central Government and what are you so afraid off- an exam is to evaluate and frankly if you are worth your szlat it doesnt make a difference if it is a cnetral or state conducting the exam .If you are good you will do well. Water was released as per interim orders and guess what that is in no way related to this discussion and that is still subjudice aand this is not. Again - are you intop active teaching - if not well you just do not know the problems teachers are facing dealing with such students.It is a problem and has vitiated the entire learning ecosystem and guess what - the comments are tru wether you like it or not.
NEET is the best thing that has happened to students who are honest and well read and have substance. They do not have to cry over it.


I think it's such a waste of time if you don't get what the other person is trying to say. If NEET is the best thing since sliced bread to identify the honest, well read & students with substance then little point of further discussion. MCQ based systems are not the sole criteria to look for academic excellence at school level in any part of the world. "Afraid of exams", "worth your salt", "Top" active teaching - please refrain from comparisons.

"எப்பொருள் யார்யார்வாய்க் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்ப தறிவு."
Wisdom grasps the truth
Of whatever and whomever said.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 11 Sep 2017 00:18

So the school based system which allowed great abuse of the system is objective and better !! Indeed as you said it is such a waste of time if you don't get what the other person is trying to say!!

No one said NEET is the next best thing to sliced bread but with the morass that is there it definitely is better and yes MCQ's if set in an inappropriate manner can be worthless but properly constructed ones can allow thinking and reasoning and problem solving . It does not replace essay questions etc which is why there is a minimum cut off that one has to get in the board exams before they can attempt NEET type of exams as a qualifier.

I think it is worth reexamining yourself the "quote" you have quoted.

What have the students of TN "lost" with NEET- not a single seat that was there for TN students has been removed.If anything they get to compete more effectively in the already existing 15% all India quota (that is there even before NEET) more effectively and widen their chances .It is to their advantage if they embrace NEET. Having said that - those students who are insular and only thinking of home state quota- they better embrace NEET and broaden their horizons a bit. That will be to their advantage. It is funny that people cannot see the obvious .

கண்கள் மூடிய ஒரு பூனை குடிப்பதைப்போல் இருக்கிறது

Theo_Fidel
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7571
Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
Location: MO,US,NCJ TN

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Sep 2017 03:36

One thing TN students have lost is the ability to set the curriculum and testing standards by majority folks from TN. Esp. thinks like the cutoff. Another thing they have lost is the ability to better control their placement esp. in their local schools. This is what happened last time around. TN folks ended up getting punted like football from one end of India to another, when they really only wanted to go to school in their own state and study under their own teachers who IME are by far the best in India.

This is what doomed the entire CBSE experiment from the 1960’s. Wacka-doodoos got into power and started messing with entire curriculum.

The truth is no dilli/billi can set the standard for an entire nation of 1.6 Billion and counting. This is wacko, 1960’s type thinking. Every state is different and deserves the right to stand on its own.

What is law today can also become not law tomorrow. There is a good reason TN is opposed to it. There is a good reason folks come to TN from all over India for medical treatment. No wonder dilli/billi’s want to meddle……

This whole thing is like a blast from the past. The time wasted past....

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 11 Sep 2017 09:27

Hmm where is NEET going to send some student from TN quota traipsing around the countryside ? All those students under TN quota will be allocated in TN itself. As far as syllabus is concerned for years now there is a common NCERT syllabus all over India for PCMB if you are not aware of it. All your arguments are vacuous and invalid .
If anything people have to get out of insular thinking. I did my undergraduate away from my home town and masters away from my state. I am thankful for it as it allowed me to broaden my horizons and thinking. One if my colleagues laughingly calls students who study from undergraduate to superspeciality in the same institute as selective inbreeding and frankly it is koopamandooka .

Schmidt
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Aug 2016 08:02

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Schmidt » 11 Sep 2017 10:10

csubash wrote:
Schmidt wrote:It's quite amusing actually

Congis in power in KA , Commies in power in Kerala , but not a pipsqueak from these worthies in these states against NEET

Whereas i TN these mofos gang up and denounce NEET stridently from every street corner

Yesterday there was a TV interview with Thirumavalavan ( VCK ) - the anchor neatly ( pun intended ) dismantled the mofos arguments ( that NEET is against poorer / rural students as well as discriminates against State Board students )


If you put these turds under the mat and ask pointed questions then they really have no arguments left.


Mind your words Schmidt - Anybody opposing NEET is not a "mofo". If you can't maintain civility don't post.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have clearly referred to specific entities ( political parties etc ) in my post , I have not referred to you or any poster

In my view these guys deserve the epithet
If there is a problem I would await any mod action rather than any advice from you

For a variety of reasons , I consider Thirumavalan ( most notably for raising Tamil separatism ) , the local commie gangs , May 17 Thirumurugan Gandh , why even DMK Stalin as a genuine mofos and I am being polite here

But you are right , using the same words leads to monotony and I will try to use different words in future

Schmidt
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Aug 2016 08:02

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Schmidt » 11 Sep 2017 10:29

Theo_Fidel wrote:The truth is no dilli/billi can set the standard for an entire nation of 1.6 Billion and counting. This is wacko, 1960’s type thinking. Every state is different and deserves the right to stand on its own.

This whole thing is like a blast from the past. The time wasted past....

-----------------------

Why not ?? China has ONE entrance exam for all Unis - gaokao

It is not impossible to set a single standard for the entire country. In fact it would put all students on a level footing and make comparisons straight forward.

The standard of syllabus and level of difficulty can be arrived at after consultations.

In fact I would argue for 2 levels of exams in each subject - a basic entry level exam for moderate achievers and a higher level Honours type exam for high achievers. Entrance to engg / medical can consider extra weightage for Honours level results.


Also , one compromise could be that the Centre takes over hard sciences like Math / PCMB etc , and the states only handle softer subjects like language , culture , maybe state history etc

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4334
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 11 Sep 2017 11:18

Theo_Fidel wrote:One thing TN students have lost is the ability to set the curriculum and testing standards by majority folks from TN. Esp. thinks like the cutoff. Another thing they have lost is the ability to better control their placement esp. in their local schools. This is what happened last time around. TN folks ended up getting punted like football from one end of India to another, when they really only wanted to go to school in their own state and study under their own teachers who IME are by far the best in India.

This is what doomed the entire CBSE experiment from the 1960’s. Wacka-doodoos got into power and started messing with entire curriculum.

The truth is no dilli/billi can set the standard for an entire nation of 1.6 Billion and counting. This is wacko, 1960’s type thinking. Every state is different and deserves the right to stand on its own.

What is law today can also become not law tomorrow. There is a good reason TN is opposed to it. There is a good reason folks come to TN from all over India for medical treatment. No wonder dilli/billi’s want to meddle……

This whole thing is like a blast from the past. The time wasted past....


Theo, no student in TN is getting punted anywhere else. Not a single TN seat has been allotted to outsiders. The reservation rules still applies, and the government still has total control over whom it wants to assign the seats to. I think you are mistaken in your assumptions.

Theo_Fidel
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7571
Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
Location: MO,US,NCJ TN

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Sep 2017 18:53

Good lord! I can't believe folks are comparing India to China. Where do do these fellows come from!
--------------------

WRT kids being kicked around the nation, Yah! Thats how CBSE started as well. Then things changed because it became a 'national project' etc, schooling levels need to be leveled out, etc. All manner of reasons were found to limit seats in states. And reasons were found to push non-state folks, esp. rural folks out of the system. How many rural types ended up in CBSE, 0%. Then reasons were found to start taking over the staffing. It is the staffing that doomed CBSE. People have no understanding of the meaning of control and what actually happens on the ground.

Like I said history says don't let dilli-billi control your syllabus or your testing panel. Under any circumstance.
-------------

No one can answer my one question, TN has easily the best medical system in the nation, and it it grew out of the states will to control its destiny.
why does dilli-billi feel the need to try and control it.... ..this is the key question.

Schmidt
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Aug 2016 08:02

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Schmidt » 11 Sep 2017 19:16

Theo - I made the comparison to China when you raised the issue of a large and complex nation with a billion plus population not being governable from one central authority . It is an apt comparison , as China has as many regional and urban-rural variations as India.

Please try to counter any arguments with facts and sound reasoning rather than any inane comments. I know you are an oldie ( I meant BRF oldie ) , so I will leave it at that.

Regarding TN having the best medical system in the country , if true , I can only shudder at the fate of the rest of the people. Suffice to say standards have been dropping even in TN and the doctors thrown up by the state system in the last 15-20 years hold np candle to the earlier batches.

Also , dilli billi does not have any special antagonism towards TN. NEET os for the entire nation and everyone else seem to be OK with it except TN , for its own parochial reasons and silly opportunistic politics. The same Cong and Commie ( and surprise surprise , DMK - yes Kanimozhi voted in favour of NEET ) bunch voted in favour of NEET when parliament passed the bill. So it is not as if NEET was brought on specifically to hurt TN interests.

But maybe I am wasting my breath , you have a veiwpoint and clearly are in no mood to see the other side of the argument.

Theo_Fidel
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7571
Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
Location: MO,US,NCJ TN

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Sep 2017 19:52

This is a joke right. Comparing China to India? It is hard to take you seriously after that and yes you are wasting your breath sadly. and you can take you snide comments on TN Medical folks with you.
----------------

See the thing is some of us were here from before MATA Indira Gandhi's time. This whole thing is entirely her making and like I said is a classic blast from the past, like 1960's past. This rule making is IG stage 2. Same frikking arguments were used back then. Locals should not be trusted, huge corruption, fat cats should be sterilized,dilli-billi know best etc. A handful of us said this is stupid and paid a price for it.

Here is the unvarnished truth, Higher education is wildly expensive. Yes even in India. If the central government can't pay for all these seats fully it should get the hell out of the way...

And what the hell is GOI doing in education anyway? Another thing to fly into the ground? What little remains anyway...

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4334
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 12 Sep 2017 08:48

I don't understand the argument that TN is losing out. Losing out to whom? If state syllabus is same as NCERT/CBSE syllabus for core maths & science, what's the issue? All states signed off on that.

TN is not the only one with good medical system. Even Karnataka, Maharashtra, Delhi etc have had good hospitals, of course to those who can afford it. And to compare different generation is not right too. If I remember right, even TN had entrance exams to professional courses at one time.

Its just more of emotional appeals and wanting to continue status quo instead of addressing the systemic issues in education.

Schmidt
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Aug 2016 08:02

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Schmidt » 12 Sep 2017 09:30

From todays Hindu :

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 667163.ece

NEET screwed them by asking questions from 9th and 11th class syllabus , which the students have conveniently skipped so far and instead just crammed the 12th syllabus to get centums in all subjects

But you really cant blame the students

The state board syllabus and books are not too different from NCERT , but the problem is they will only ask questions from the text book , with no deviations whatsoever. Even the numericals will feature the exact same problems from the text book, they wont even change the values.

No wonder more than half the students flunk maths courses when the get into Engg.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Sep 2017 09:43

Build education on a foundation of shifting sands and then vehemently protest !
The goal of education shouldn't be just to pass an exam but to be a good professional in the track you choose. Rote learning and scripted learning gets you nowhere. No wonder the flunk rate in first year professional courses is so high . I am happy they have also made a NEET medical exit exam. MBBS exams became a farce due to some private medical colleges dumping marks on undeserving candidates. Just Google Vinayagar medical college in Pondicherry and Karaikal to get a small glimpse of the rot.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Sep 2017 09:45

Market forces will now come into play too. Nearly 30% of private medical colleges are now lying empty with no takers. They will have to drop their ridiculous fee structure they thought they could get away with.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Sep 2017 09:46

Most of these were started by politicos for money laundering and profiteering.

deejay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3502
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Education System

Postby deejay » 12 Sep 2017 09:59

Schmidt wrote:...

The state board syllabus and books are not too different from NCERT ,...
...


I have posted this here before but this time I will qualify myself - I have done a Publishing course with NBT back in 2010. The course was educative on how the text book market works. It is the most lucrative publishing segment by far and this is followed by the Competition books segment. It was also educative on the roles the boards play.

In India, there is only one authority to set the curriculum and that is NCERT. The National Curriculum Framework 2005 lays out the minimum comprehension levels by age group. The age groups coincide with classes.

http://www.ncert.nic.in/rightside/links/pdf/framework/english/nf2005.pdf

NCERT curriculum is a guideline for various boards to frame their Syllabus. The boards often exceed the minimum standards.

NCERT publishes "model" books for the curriculum framework and not for any board though CBSE is most aligned to these. NCERT knows that it can neither publish enough, nor supply in time to all students across the country. This brings in private publishers. Publishers gain a lot with the pedagogy where text books are central method of imparting classroom learning.

It was also widely accepted then that Tamil Nadu Matriculation Board was among the best boards in India. CBSE does help in running central schools, KVs etc but the number of CBSE affiliated schools across country in 2010 was less than 20,000 and ICSE affiliated schools were around 1800. Tamil Nadu matriculation board alone had more than 10,000 schools affiliated to it. The reach of Central boards is minimal while State boards are the main conduit of schooling in India.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4334
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Education System

Postby putnanja » 12 Sep 2017 11:13

Schmidt wrote:From todays Hindu :

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 667163.ece

NEET screwed them by asking questions from 9th and 11th class syllabus , which the students have conveniently skipped so far and instead just crammed the 12th syllabus to get centums in all subjects
....


Something similar happens in Karnataka but for 10th. All the questions will be from the text books only. Nothing outside of textbooks will be there (even application of concepts type problem). So if someone memorizes the books end-to-end, they are guaranteed to ace the exam. Hence the pass percentage of 10th is quite high. I believe the govt wants to ensure that people at least have a 10th pass certificate. So more than 70% clear the exams

In II-PUC(12th standard), the results drop to around 50-55%.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 6897
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Sachin » 12 Sep 2017 14:35

putnanja wrote:Something similar happens in Karnataka but for 10th. All the questions will be from the text books only. Nothing outside of textbooks will be there (even application of concepts type problem).

Why only blame Karnataka or state syllabus alone? I have "been there & done that" for my ICSE and ISC board exams. The routine was well cast in stone:-
1. 10th Std. students do not have a summer vacation. Special classes would start in May. By July, the course contents would have got completed. I mean the "teaching" for the year is over.
2. From July till around December, it was exams & exams every single day. In each subject, every week, two to three chapters would be the focus area and questions would come from those areas alone. Students who scored low marks had extra classes on the week end. BTW, students who were suspected to flunk in 10th, would most probably be detained in 9th, or sent out by giving a TC. Thus over a period of 4-5 months, students were drilled to answer every possible question which can come out of the text book. Today looking back; I realize the futility of such a scheme. I cleared my 10th but have pretty much forgotten all that I learnt, many of the lessons learnt this way never had to be practiced by me in life.
3. Practical exams were another joke. Around four weeks before the D-Day and the board would send every school a list of raw materials they should stock up in the labs. This gave a clue on what would be the possible "experiments" which students may have to do. Again the drill sessions would start. Students had to mug up the entire set of experiments (i)steps to be done ii)physical observations iii)inference) using the raw materials and then just vomit that onto the answer sheet. In the actual exam; the external invigilator was surprised to see the entire batch just writing down the experiment details, without even doing the first test (the chemical was Ferrous Chloride, or some orange colour powder).

PS: From my batch, lots of them qualified to become "Injineers", but none made it a doctor. AFAIK, none went onto become civil service officers as well.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6576
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Prasad » 12 Sep 2017 15:47

CBSE was similar except questions weren't from teh book. This assumes a) capability of teachers & school to impart quality edu b) ability of students to absorb and get help outside of school, either from parents or coaching of some kid. Lack of a level playing field is a given. When we have marath-adi schools (literally under-the-tree schools) how are we to do the twin objects of creating and sustaining excellence in edu & providing basic education in far reaches of the country without making it utterly hopeless for these students who lack most facilities including the greatest - quality teachers?

Apart from school, vocational training is where the answer lies imo. That is where successive govts have talked big but achieved nothing. Students who may or may not pass their secondary education should be able to get into vocational training institutes and helped to obtain vocational edu so that they can absorbed by industry. Welding, electricians, plumbing, road laying, construction etc etc are huge across the country without standards and rely on apprenticeships rather than any formal training for the most part.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 6897
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Sachin » 12 Sep 2017 17:38

Prasad wrote:Students who may or may not pass their secondary education should be able to get into vocational training institutes and helped to obtain vocational edu so that they can absorbed by industry. Welding, electricians, plumbing, road laying, construction etc etc are huge across the country without standards and rely on apprenticeships rather than any formal training for the most part.

Looks like times have changed completely. The positive side is that people in general now wants their kids to be educated to the best level which they can afford (which is good). The negative side is that with education, only a few set of jobs are seen as worth taking and every effort is made to push the kids on that way.

Keeping in context of Kerala, my generation I feel would be the first one to get into this "rat race" mode. My own senior cousins etc. had a slightly better chance. During those days Kerala's MBBS seats were based on the PUC/PDC marked scores, and couple of my cousins got into this profession. They were really bright, had a liking for the job and today stands with good credit in the respective fields. Among their friends were people who were less studious, and who flunked SSLC etc. No question of suicide etc. Many of them took up other avenues, started their own business etc. and went along. Then there were folks who were not really bright, but was pretty okay. All of them completed PUC or graduation and landed up in some government job or other. Many of them enlisted in IAF en-masse (to retire 15 years later as Sergeants).

At least then, the system was that people who were not academically bright; went to the ITI (Industrial Training Institutes; do we still have them?). The next lot went for Diploma courses. Only the most brilliant (in theory) folks cleared the entrance for B.Tech etc. etc. But all these certificate holders also had appropriate jobs for them. Now with the craze for B.Tech pretty much every one has a B.Tech degree, but is now doing the job done by a ITI or Diploma holder 15-20 years back.

Theo_Fidel
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7571
Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
Location: MO,US,NCJ TN

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Theo_Fidel » 12 Sep 2017 19:18

prasannasimha wrote:The goal of education shouldn't be just to pass an exam but to be a good professional in the track you choose.


How is NEET going to achieve this? It is just another silly exam folks are going to get into an arms race on. TN once had an entrance exam once and the results were quite poor and after protests the system was dropped.

I have said many times before that unfortunately the only way India can sort out the good from the bad is within the higher education system itself. Admit everyone and those who can't cut it will wash out. This is the only system the entire world uses. It is the one more likely to work in India.
----------------------

As was pointed out the real lucrative part is setting the syllabus, publishing and staffing. This is the part the the folks in dilli are trying to capture. That is all NEET is about. In fact that all CBSE was about too. Students be damned...

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 12 Sep 2017 20:06

TN once had an entrance exam once and the results were quite poor and after protests the system was dropped.


:lol: results were poor? what the heck does that mean anyways? in what way?

if entrance was tough and students scored low, still all coveted seats were still filled according to cutoffs. There was no "fail" in entrance exam.

What protests? Point to these protests.

The only reason why entrance was removed was the pressure of residential schools in certain districts (Namakkal, Dharmapuri etc). under the guise of level playing field for 'rural students'. These schools in rasipuram for ex, are classified as rural schools, but these are residential schools which have high fees that only rich kids can afford.

Last year, almost half the medical admissions came from four districts of TN where these "rural schools" (residential schools that have perfected the art of rote memory exam taking) dominate. this is the "samooga neethi" these liars want to protect. Money from these schools are funneled to politicos as well.

The utlra rich can still buy in with management quota. A cut of that also goes to politicos.

This is a cozy arrangement that they don't want disturbed.

Now they are howling about these rural poor govt school students. Guess how many made it before? about 200 in 10 years total.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 12 Sep 2017 20:14

It is just another silly exam folks are going to get into an arms race on.


and the race to score centums is what?

what's this thing about skipping 11th and taking the 12th exams right from 10th annual leave - non stop till 12th exams is what? fostering intellectual curiosity?

When I did my 12th, I never went for even tuition for 12th. I only took entrance coaching at a local place just to get some practice exams and get tuned to the MCQ format. I still had to apply what I learned in 11th and 12th. It was not a case of trying to remember the question and answer. It is impossible to remember answer in MCQ and reproduce from memory because questioner can play around with double negative and similar looking answers to throw the 'answer from memory' guy off. I did not get any centums in anything. But I was reasonably smart and I knew the concepts and did make it.

I would not survive the current education system as it only favors centum scorers who can reproduce answers faithfully from memory by practice.

This somehow is samooga neethi and entrance exam is "rat race".... :lol:

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 12 Sep 2017 20:17

Prasad wrote:Apart from school, vocational training is where the answer lies imo. That is where successive govts have talked big but achieved nothing. Students who may or may not pass their secondary education should be able to get into vocational training institutes and helped to obtain vocational edu so that they can absorbed by industry. Welding, electricians, plumbing, road laying, construction etc etc are huge across the country without standards and rely on apprenticeships rather than any formal training for the most part.


ITIs are making a comeback. I've reported here about some visits to ITIs in Erode and it was buzzing with activity. They even had campus interviews and job offers from industries in cbe etc.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 12 Sep 2017 20:23

putnanja wrote:Theo, no student in TN is getting punted anywhere else. Not a single TN seat has been allotted to outsiders. The reservation rules still applies, and the government still has total control over whom it wants to assign the seats to. I think you are mistaken in your assumptions.


Not only that. The state also has in its power to give grace marks to give a leg up to whatever group that it feels it needs to give to. This was clarified by Nadda.

The sheer amount of brazen lying and couching illogical arguments as samooga neethi (social justice), justice for rural students, state freedom blah blah. :roll:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 055068.ece
Mr. Nadda said NEET was being implemented across the country. “It is being implemented here (Tamil Nadu) also...the Tamil Nadu government feels that those from a rural background will not be able to adjust to the NEET admission process. For that, I have told them that for the students of the state board or those from a rural background, they (state government) have full freedom to have their own reservation policy,” he said.

As far as providing reservation was concerned, it was up to the state government to take a call as it was a “state policy programme”, Mr. Nadda said, adding that it can give a “special reservation” to such students.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Karthik S » 12 Sep 2017 20:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:The goal of education shouldn't be just to pass an exam but to be a good professional in the track you choose.


How is NEET going to achieve this? It is just another silly exam folks are going to get into an arms race on. TN once had an entrance exam once and the results were quite poor and after protests the system was dropped.

I have said many times before that unfortunately the only way India can sort out the good from the bad is within the higher education system itself. Admit everyone and those who can't cut it will wash out. This is the only system the entire world uses. It is the one more likely to work in India.
----------------------

As was pointed out the real lucrative part is setting the syllabus, publishing and staffing. This is the part the the folks in dilli are trying to capture. That is all NEET is about. In fact that all CBSE was about too. Students be damned...


:rotfl:

You've been pretty funny today saar, continue.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 12 Sep 2017 20:32

And now suddenly comes the argument that govt needs to get out of education. fine. let's clarify.

1. is it about specifically telling how admission should take place?

2. or in funding and running the govt college?

As long as govt is funding colleges, it will be involved in running the college. as long as it is involved in running the college, it will be involved in specifying the admission process. That is how it works.

All these years govt was funding and running colleges and politicians devised several quotas to reward their vote bases and management quotas to fund themselves and it was great, but suddenly govt should get out of education because NEET :roll:

Worst is the argument put forward that how sad it is that Anitha have scored 1100 (or whatever) marks but still cannot get a seat.

We are perfectly fine with so-called FC students scoring the same marks and still not getting seats so far. But that is social justice. It is untouchable (pun damn well intended).

NEET may not be perfect. It probably needs to have 12th marks as a component in final cut off. NEET implementation was horrible. What went on at the exam centers is an atrocity. All that is fine. These things can be addressed and fixed. But NEET is a step forward in changing the education system for the better.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6576
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Prasad » 12 Sep 2017 21:20

If 12th marks were being used for medical entrance these past few years, how did they normalise cbse marks?

Lets just agree that our entire undergrad situation is a bloody avial. There were central exams, state exams, state board marks, deemed unis having their own procedures, autonomous unis, self-financed colleges affiliated to unis etc etc. So either make everything autonomous with ability to select their entry or use neet like thing atleast at state level.

That state board mark generating schools run by fatkat moneypeople took a hit (*cough prince cough*) and therefore suddenly becoming champions for rural students is just :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Irrespective of state board or central exams, better schooled with access to better help will score more on an average.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 13 Sep 2017 00:51

If 12th marks were being used for medical entrance these past few years, how did they normalise cbse marks?


ayyoo..saar..that is the samooga neethi of TN. CBSE students were shafted because they don't score centums.

According to samooga neethi kaavalarkal (SJWs) - ONLY other staters or rich or FCs study in cbse's anyways...so it's ok to shaft them.

of course, this then resulted in parents pulling out their kids from cbse's after 9th and put them in rote memory samacheer kalvi schools to score centums and somehow make it to the required cutoffs. But of course THAT is not "rat race" :roll:

The pressure on these kids to score is unbelievable. I was shocked when I had to watch closely what some of my niece and nephews have to go through now that they are hitting the 12th grade. I also have two cousins teaching 12th - one for private school and one for govt school. NONE of the govt school student make it to these colleges. And the private school teacher is a poor tortured soul. She had to spend more time than the kids at the school - meaning 12 hr days and no weekends as tests are conducted in weekends as well.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Karthik S » 13 Sep 2017 08:20

RVAIDYA‏
@rvaidya2000
Following
More
Shame inTN:Anti-NEET youths commies& EVR groups climbed 8/sept-on Raja gopuram- Srivalliputtur Andal temple-to-abolish Hinduism &Neet-BeshRT


As they say in the South (USA), TN is increasingly becoming a cursed place.

prasannasimha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Education System

Postby prasannasimha » 13 Sep 2017 14:53

When I see the anti NEET arguments I feel like laughing.

AjayKK
BRFite
Posts: 1520
Joined: 10 Jan 2008 10:27

Re: Indian Education System

Postby AjayKK » 13 Sep 2017 15:07

^ One anti NEET argument was that this (narth dilli babu's) test takes away the "opportunity from TN's poor students that are studying in gov schools".

However, this New Indian Express article states that when marks scored in state curriculum was the criteria for med admission, "only 0.7 per cent of MBBS students in government medical colleges and 1.1 percent in private colleges came from government schools across the State".

Not even 2 percent of Tamil Nadu government school kids study medicine
MADURAI: How inclusive is a medical education in Tamil Nadu? It’s a far cry, going by the numbers. According to data, only 0.7 per cent of MBBS students in government medical colleges and 1.1 percent in private colleges come from government schools across the State.

Government school students could secure only 213 of the 29,925 seats in government medical colleges. It is even less in the case of private colleges, where only 65 of the whopping 6,132 seats were grabbed by students from State-run schools, said The Tamil Nadu Dr MGR Medical University, in response to an RTI application. The data is for the period between 2006 and 2016.

The numbers are drastic, even in top State-run medical colleges. For instance, Madras Medical College admitted 15 students from government schools, while Stanley, Kilpauk and Madurai Medical Colleges admitted 20, 13 and 14 respectively.

The average yearly intake of all of these colleges ranges between 150 and 250. Speaking to Express, K Raju, the RTI applicant, said there is 21 government medical colleges and 16 private ones in the State.

“But it is shocking to know that government school students did not even constitute 2 percent of the total admissions. It shows the existing quality of education in these schools. It’s not that the students aren’t capable, but the system failed to mould them.”

Sharing his observations, educationist P B Prince Gajendra Babu blamed the State government for the drop in educational standards over the last 30 years.

“When most of the States expressed their inability to develop the public education system, in Tamil Nadu, it was former Chief Minister K Kamaraj who managed to establish at least one primary school within every three-kilometre radius and one high school for every five kilometres,” he added.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7956
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Indian Education System

Postby Gus » 13 Sep 2017 19:24

an example of a non "rat race"

https://www.quora.com/What-is-your-revi ... ary-School
If you need an external push / you are not self motivated - this place is for you . You will be under a compulsion to study for at-least 5–6 hours a day apart from regular school hours

You write a hell lot of exams that even your fingers start crying. You will be trained to finish your end exam in 1.5 - 2 hours, whereas actual time allowed is 3 hours

Jail - Students here wont see anything else except, hostels, classrooms and canteens. Also you will be permitted to visit your native only twice a year and that too 2 days per trip.


another example

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 07--1.html
NAMAKKAL: Known for producing eggs and churning out eggheads, Namakkal is, so to say, the rank capital of the State. Now that the ranking system in the SSLC and HSC board examinations has been abolished, private schools, which set into motion the city’s rise as an education hub, have found another USP to market themselves: NEET.

Till last year, whenever the SSLC and HSC results were made public, the focus automatically shifted to the city, for the top ranks were invariably bagged by students from here. A major role in the achievement was played by the numerous ‘rank farms’ — 97 private higher secondary-level schools — as against 86 government institutions. Rank farms in the district were giving poultry farms a run for their money in terms of productivity. :lol:
Maintaining high standards consistently is no child’s play and ample example of the dictum in practice was seen in the way these private institutions scouted for talent and made achievers out of them. The moment news of a government school student acing the SSLC becomes public, private institutions roll out the red carpet and unleash a plethora of mouthwatering offers to poach them. Such is the cut-throat competition that the next two years are spent passing the student through an arduous grind to ensure they ace Plus Two examination with flying colours.
..
“Some schools start Class XII portions in Class XI. While they prepare the students for boards, they skip laying the foundation. The fees are also exorbitant. For a Class XI seat, the tuition fees alone amount to Rs 1.5 lakh. Hostel and food fees are extra. Since last year, these schools have started levying an extra Rs 50,000-1 lakh under the guise of NEET coaching. Two private schools in Namakkal, one in Rasipuram, one in Paramathi Velur and three in Tiruchengode, in particular, are known for their high fees,” added an expert.
..


plus 2 exams specialist schools like these ruled the roost until now. they had a monopoly on the education market.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 634355.ece
Read with 2016, when four districts, Erode, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri and Namakkal, accounted for 1,750 seats, it presents a picture of contrast. This year, only 364 seats went to candidates from these districts.


and get this..

these schools are located in rural areas. So the NEET arguments are couched in a "its against rural students" :roll: ...

but these schools are residential schools which charge high fees and while they do take in poor students who have shown promise in their 10th marks, they make their money from affordable parents who want their kids to score centums. so how are these rural schools that cater to poor rural students helping these poor rural students get into medical...

svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: Indian Education System

Postby svenkat » 13 Sep 2017 20:55

csubash saar has a point.The comfort zone of TN students is being disturbed.

Beyond that,I think TN students will rise to the occassion.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests