Indian Education System

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 05 Jul 2008 01:12

IIT Rajasthan: Makeshift building, no funds

www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1175494

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 07 Jul 2008 00:15

Round the clock electricity energises education in rural Gujarat

The results of class X and XII of the last three years show remarkable improvement in the education standard in the rural area of Gujarat. Quoting the figures of the results , Gujarat government has given the credit of this to its Jyotigram scheme. Under Jyotigram the government provides round the clock three phase electricity to all the 18,000 villages .

In a release, spokespersons of the government said that a study of the performance of the students has shown that this is the outcome of the two scheme Chief Minister Narendra Modi has launched. They are Jyotigram and Kanya Kelavni, educating the girl. They said that there are 43.40 per cent students in the merit list who have rural background.

The top ten list of the 12th Science has now 27.78 per cent students with rural background. Earlier this was 6.61 per cent.


http://www.gujaratglobal.com/nextSub.ph ... ttype=NEWS

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Jul 2008 04:49

Can you please post this in the Outsourcing thread also?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vina » 07 Jul 2008 10:37

Ah. Bade saar's wish comes true. IITs now offer humanities programs. Hopefully lot more women now come to the IITs and more love leelas blossom. Us B.Techs secretly envied the MSc types, which had a large percentage of wimmin in their programs. Hopefully the IIT humanities types will go out in the wide world yonder and put the JNU/DSE/ISI types out to pasture and make the irrelevant. You do need a non commie alternative in the social "sciences" (prefer studies) world to take them on and drown out the droning of the marxist JNU/ISI nuts.

But really man "development " and "cultural studies" at IITs .. :(( :(( .. Have very mixed feelings about it. Is it "polluting" to the temple of hard engineering and sciences. :shock:

IITs Offer Humanities Programs

Press Trust of India
Sunday, July 6, 2008 (New Delhi)
Science is science and humanities is humanities...But it does look like the twain have met - at least at the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology (IIT)!

Now, the IITs have more to offer than just engineering - studying there is an option for those interested in humanities, management and even law.

India has seven IITs. Almost all of them offer management programmes while IIT Madras, IIT Kanpur and IIT Kharagpur offer programmes in humanities. IIT Kharagpur has even a law programme.

IIT Delhi is in the process of starting a two-year MA programme, which should begin in the next year or two.

''We are planning on starting a Master of Arts (MA) programme in development studies and cultural studies, with maybe about 15-20 seats,'' V Upadhyay, acting head of the humanities and social sciences department, IIT Delhi, told IANS.

''The programme will have an inter-disciplinary approach, making it different from similar courses at other colleges.''

IIT Madras started a five-year integrated MA programme in economics, English and development studies in 2006.

Admission is through the Humanities and Social Sciences Entrance Examination (HSEE), held in May. The number of seats per batch has grown from 30 to 34 this year because of the increased reservation and will gradually increase to about 45.

''The programme was started as part of the goal of promoting research and study in the sciences and engineering as well as the humanities, as is mentioned in the statute book,'' VR Muraleedharan, head of the humanities and social sciences department at IIT Madras, told IANS on phone.

''We felt that having our own graduate programme would make us feel more complete,'' he said.

''We were keen on making the resources of IIT available to a wider cross-section of people. Overall, the response to the programme has been encouraging,'' he added.

The programme is well structured with an inter-disciplinary approach. Subjects vary from courses in philosophy and English to economics, sociology, history and development. Students also get to study along with the BTech students in certain courses.

Aadya Singh, a student of the first MA batch at IIT Madras, said, ''It is a very cohesive programme and apart from the inter-disciplinary approach that widens your exposure, we get to do some basic science and math courses which complement the social sciences.''

IIT Kharagpur and IIT Kanpur have had a five-year integrated MSc programme in economics for the last few years. Admission is through the Joint Entrance Exam (JEE). Both the institutes offer 25 seats and economics, as a subject at the senior secondary level, is not a prerequisite.

All the IITs have departments of humanities and social sciences, most of which are as old as the institutes themselves, offering elective courses for B.Tech and M.Tech students as a compulsory part of their curriculum. They have also been conducting PhD programmes in certain subjects in the humanities.

IIT Kharagpur recently set up a law school (Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law), which focuses on intellectual property rights and law related to technology.

The school offers a three-year LLB degree with specialisation in intellectual property rights and also conducts PhD programmes. It is the only IIT to have such a programme.

''We wanted to create a class of professionals with scientific and technological knowledge as well as the additional knowledge of law, which we felt was important,'' said S. Tripathy, head of the department.

Management degrees are also offered at all the IITs, except Guwahati, as well as at Indian Institute of Science (IISc) Bangalore.

The Joint Management Entrance Test (JMET) is the common admissions test for the two-year post-graduate management programmes at these institutes.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Viswanthan » 07 Jul 2008 13:00

Looks like its "catch them young and watch them grow" as far as anti-amerikan indoctrination on impressionable kids goes . One should be wary of US state power but this kind of pure pinko propaganda ,passing of as Class 12 syllabi is quite shocking.
It appears to me JNU is just a finishing school ,the stage is set much earlier


http://www.ncert.nic.in/book_publishing ... -final.pdf
Especially read the narrative linking the fictional sob stories of Ayesha,Jabu and Andre with supposed US hegemony

Read somewhere that "social scientist" Prof Yogendra was involved in framing the curriculm .If so subtly injecting his ideology biases here too.

Professor-please leave the kids alone

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2008 13:38

wow had no idea sir that class12 social studies could be so into political slogan
shouting. my social studies back mid 80s ended in a dry description of a few 5 yr plans and PSU temples like bhilai and bokaro. times have indeed changed.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 07 Jul 2008 13:39

It is the old tactic of commies to brainwash impressionable youth through text books. The abolition of Hindu monarchy in Nepal and its turning "secular" republic has also been introduced in NCERT books. The commies and rabid communalists are having a field day in NCERT under the UPA. The BJP had done a good job of weeding them out one by one but the commies hit back by running a campaign about "saffronisation" of education. It was actually de-Marxistisation of NCERT under Prof. Rajput but the commies in India created a din to try to nip the process in the bud. Let us hope that once the BJP returns to power, it weeds out the anti-national, anti-Hindu commie / religious fundamentalist scoundrels again. The way BJP is romping home in every election, it seems that the pendulum is set to swing back sooner or later and the poison unleashed by the rootless, "articulate-but-hollow" Nehru in our culture is set to be purged.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 07 Jul 2008 14:14

Singha wrote:wow had no idea sir that class12 social studies could be so into political slogan
shouting. my social studies back mid 80s ended in a dry description of a few 5 yr plans and PSU temples like bhilai and bokaro. times have indeed changed.

Fwiw it was same until 2001.. I am surprised that politics has reached our school curricula too. I have also heard about Former PM ABV's poems being included in the syllabus .

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Viswanthan » 07 Jul 2008 14:39

Even this poor unelightened was exploring the NCERT link to read things like Indian Constitution etc etc.But havent things changed .No wonder remember reading rave reviews in Chennai Xinhua that the new syllabi is 'creative',imaginative etc etc

Chapter titled "South Asia" is pretty revealing.The seeds of "We are South Asians,We eat the same shit,we watch the same *****,we are all poor and we are all equal only " syndrome in sowed here

While evil Amerika 's hegemonistic design is exposed,TSP is introduced as part of grand magnificient South Asian narrative.Apparently the 7 SAARC countries are part of 'one geo-political space' .Notice how a subtle equivalence is sought to be established between India and TSP.Obviously harvesting hatred is a strict no-no but to equate secular,multi-cultural India with the theocratic hellholes like Pakistan and tinypots like Bangladesh is doing serious disservice to the young minds and to the cause of democracy

There is a cursory mention of Maoist's violent struggle in Nepal but the narrrative seeks to establish in the gullible minds that "popular uprising" led to regime change.

Seriously one should not blame the young impressionables turning in to jholawallas ,pinkintellectual and candle kissers willing to catch the next train to Wagah border

I am sure the logical career path for those are fed on Yogendra books is -
a)go to a elitist upper class Dilli college to study sosal science/sosology/political science.Probably Stephens is now out of bounds given that it wants to rediscover its spiritual soul
b)If you are good looking chik or handsome hunky with super angrezi skills get recruited for exorbitant wages by Undie TV/INN-CBN .Spew nonsense in prime time with breathless reporting and supercilious attitude
c)If lack of good looks ,head to that J Nehru University and do "pathbreaking" work like influence of "Pablo Neruda on the leftist movement in Guatemala and El Slavador".EPW is bound to find space for this

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Tanaji » 07 Jul 2008 14:40

The engineering colleges in Maharashtra never had any standards to begin with with some notable exceptions, so its small wonder when we see companies like these:

Hi,

Myself CEO of my own organization in Pune - India.

We make Projects for BE / ME students in I.T, Comp, Electronics, Electrical, Telecommunications, Biotech and Instrumentation Engg.
Complete Project delivery along with Project reports.

So, choose a Project of your choice and relax for our experts to work for you
Just SMS BE_PROJECT on (+91)9881820151.
You can also mail us at ceo@projectsdeal.com and we will get back to you.

You can also visit http://www.projectsdeal.com to register project online.

Looking forward for our mutual growth !


Basically what they will do for you, is deliver your final year project that counts for at least 40% of your final semester grading. The project is supposed to be a culmination of what you learnt in the last 4 years of engineering.

I am not sure who is to blame for the state of affairs: the students who are too lazy or the college that does not have the resources nor a qualified guide that can suitably assist the students or the industry that has very few places where a final year student can go and do his project or the University that has arbitrary criteria of what a "project" should constitute of and makes no effort on trying to crack down on this.

Small wonder that a lot of the people that pass out from these institutions are unemployable.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 07 Jul 2008 14:43

edited..

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Bring back the Right to education bill to the Parliament ple

Postby joshvajohn » 08 Jul 2008 04:42

Comment: I think this issue should atleast be discussed in the public if the parliament cannot pass it now.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 208698.cms
Teach India: Don't kill Right to Education Bill

In August 2005, a bill was drafted with a sense of hope. This was the bill that would change the face of education in India. The draft brimmed with new ideas, the most radical being a clause that made it compulsory for private schools to have reservations so that rich and poor rubbed shoulders in the schoolroom and learnt about the way the other India lived.

The ministers and bureaucrats were unimpressed by this Gandhian vision, authored by the Government of India's Central Advisory Board for Education. More than unimpressed, they were unwilling. Reservations is a prickly political chestnut at the best of times and this ambitious clause was something they certainly did not want on their heads.

Three years have passed. The bill has been bounced around like an unwanted ball from department to department, it has been buried and resurrected and sent to limbo land. The cabinet has not bother- ed to read or discuss it. It was not introduced in the budget session. Right now, it is stuck somewhere in the bewildering maze that is the bureaucracy.

After the 2002 86th constitutional amendment made education a fundamental right for children under fourteen, the NDA government drafted a bill on the right to education. The bill never reached parliament. When the UPA government was elected, the issue was brought up again and a new bill was drafted in 2005. While the NDA bill had been drafted by government officers alone, the UPA bill involved a much wider range of professionals including university teachers, NGOs and government servants. The signs were good but educationists have long learnt not to always trust the signs.

So what is the Right to Education bill all about? Broadly speaking, it aims at setting minimum standards for both public and private schools so that the quality of education improves throughout the country and current inequities are levelled. While most will have no quarrel with this aim, many may have serious reservations about the method. A controversial clause makes it compulsory for all private schools to reserve 25% of their seats for poor children from the neighbourhood. This includes elite ICSE and IB schools, too. So even a school like a DPS in Delhi would be subject to this clause as would a Cathedral or a Dhirubhai Ambani in Mumbai and a St Xavier's and a La Martiniere in Kolkata. The bill has been fiercely opposed by the private school lobby which feels that opening its doors to the dhobi's son and the driver's daughter will dilute its brand value and lower standards. There is also the problematic issues of the high fees that some schools charge and the culture of elitism they espouse.

On another front, the bill aims at plugging some of the loopholes in the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyaan. For instance, it wants to outlaw non-formal education and do away with the contract system of recruiting teachers which has proved disastrous.

"All non-formal schools across the country will as per the bill have three years to upgrade themselves to formal schools, which provide the minimum standards prescribed by the bill," says Vinod Raina, one of the architects of the bill. A physics teacher at Delhi University, Raina was one of the founders of the Eklavya Program, set up in Madhya Pradesh in 1972 to bring quality education to disadvantaged children.

As for the contract system, the government currently allows schools to appoint teachers on a contract basis and pay them a paltry sum of Rs 1,000 to Rs 1,500 a month. Very often these teachers are simply not qualified to teach. The bill wants that this be abolished and that all teachers, both in private and government schools, be appointed on a permanent basis and given a full salary as long as they are qualified. Recognising the fact that there is a huge shortage of trained teachers across the country, the bill provides for a five-year period for the government to create a talent pool by launching wide-scale teacher-training programs.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vera_k » 08 Jul 2008 09:47

Tanaji wrote:I am not sure who is to blame for the state of affairs: the students who are too lazy or the college that does not have the resources nor a qualified guide that can suitably assist the students or the industry that has very few places where a final year student can go and do his project or the University that has arbitrary criteria of what a "project" should constitute of and makes no effort on trying to crack down on this.


If things haven't changed since the late 90's then this is a problem caused by the disorganized nature of the final year project. Students are expected to both think of a project idea and find an interested sponsor by visiting local companies. While many students are able to handle this type of undirected effort, quite a few are at a loss as to how to proceed.

IMO the way out of this is to move to an internship and thesis model where the requirement for original coursework is separated from the execution of an applied project.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby svinayak » 15 Jul 2008 07:30

Beware of the Trojan Horse
http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/15/stories ... 180800.htm
Philip G. Altbach

Allowing foreign institutions to set up shop in India is not the only road to the internationalisation of Indian higher education.


India’s Parliament is often accused of inaction or long delays. The case of the Foreign Education Bill, bottled up for two years because of disagreements in the ruling coalition government, may be a case where delay is a good thing. India’s higher education policies are of crucial importance for the country and also of great relevance for the many foreign universities wishing to set up shop. The Indian press reports that 40 international universities have sought land from the government of Maharashtra in the Mumbai-Pune-Nashik area to establish campuses. These trends provide just one indication of the tremendous foreign interest in the large and lucrative higher education market in India. Some foreign universities are already working in India, mostly in collaboration with Indian partners.

India might be the world’s largest single market for foreign universities. The country has a significant unmet demand for higher education access — currently only 10 per cent of the age group attends university — half the proportion in China and well below the rate in most rapidly developing and middle-income countries. Further, India has a huge unmet demand for high-quality higher education. The number of places available in India’s very small top sector — the Indian Institutes of Technology, the Indian Institutes of Management, and similar institutions — is tiny when compared to the demand. Thus, foreign institutions see a tremendous opportunity for lucrative growth in the Indian market.
Reasons for caution

Some stakeholders who see higher education simply as a tradable commodity that can be bought and sold internationally favour opening borders without restriction for educational products of all kinds. The for-profit higher education companies, many private universities, the international testing companies, and increasingly some universities and government agencies in the exporting countries — such as the United Kingdom and the United States — have this perspective. People who are convinced that higher education is more than a commodity have much to worry about in the rush toward importing and exporting universities and academic programmes because the idea of academic work as preparation for citizenship, preparation for critical thinking, and similar “public good” goals often get swept away by the importers and exporters. The traders are interested in selling products in immediate demand, such as management studies, and not in sustaining research universities, enhancing access and equity for underserved communities, and the like.

Why do foreign universities and education companies such as Laureate Education Inc. wish to enter the Indian market? The motivations are complex but very important to understand. One goal is clear — everyone who enters the Indian market wants to extract profits — mostly by offering academic programmes in fields that are in high demand. With very few exceptions, foreign providers are not interested in investing in high-cost academic infrastructures such as science laboratories and research facilities. They wish to minimise the investment and maximise the profit, like any corporation. Some countries, including the United Kingdom and Australia, have a national policy to earn profits from higher education exports. Thus the British Council and similar organisations assist British educational institutions to maximise their export potentials. The British Council is no longer mainly in the information business but rather is focused on export promotion.

The United States differs in some respects but essentially follows the British and Australian pattern. The United States has no national higher education policy. Higher education policy is mainly a responsibility of the 50 states, and no state has declared higher education an export priority. Unlike the United Kingdom or Australia, the United States has a strong private higher education sector, and the private universities and colleges have been most aggressive about overseas exports. It is likely that the largest number seeking to enter the Indian market will include low-end private schools seeking to earn a profit.

The for-profit sector is also much stronger in the United States than is the case elsewhere. The two largest players are Laureate Education Inc. and the Apollo Group (owners of the University of Phoenix and other institutions). Laureate’s strategy is either to purchase existing universities outside the United States (they own 29 universities and postsecondary institutions on three continents) or to establish new schools. Laureate started a university in Andhra Pradesh, a state friendly to foreign providers, but pulled out when the regulatory environment seemed too complex.

The top American private and public universities—20 percent or so of the total of more than 3,000 colleges and universities—have complex motives for entering the Indian market. For the most part, they are genuinely interested in internationalization, and see India as an important player, economically and educationally, in the 21st century. They are concerned with their “brand image” and wish to expand it in one of the world’s major higher education markets. They may use their Indian outposts to recruit bright Indian students, and academic staff, to come to the United States for studying. Their Indian branch campuses will provide a place where their own students and faculty can study and do research. And, of course, in most cases the universities will seek to earn money from the programs offered in India.

The problem for India is the myriad of institutions at the bottom of the American academic hierarchy, both for-profit and non-profit. These players are likely to concentrate on entering the Indian market, with one essential reason for being in India — to earn money. While many of these institutions will offer respectable academic programmes, some will try to cut corners. Vetting and regulating these institutions will not be easy. There will be no help from the highly regarded American accrediting system. So long as an institution is accredited (and U.S. accreditation measures not high quality but rather the minimum standard), there are no official guidelines concerning institutional quality. These schools will offer the programmes in India that they feel will attract students and may well have little commitment to either a long-term presence in India or to maintaining good quality.
Branch campuses

As India carefully considers its policies concerning allowing foreign institutions in the country, a number of central issues must be addressed. What is the motivation of the foreign institution? Is everything about the foreign branch transparent and open? What is the status of the foreign institution in its own country? Is the foreign institution capable of offering the same quality in India as it does at home, and is that quality deemed of an acceptably high standard in the home country? Is the foreign institution able to deliver its programmes in India using its own faculty, and does it have appropriate infrastructures such as libraries, e-learning facilities, and laboratories to deliver the programmes it proposed? Is the foreign institution able to sustain its academic offerings over time in India?

Allowing foreign institutions to set up shop in India is not the only road to the internationalisation of Indian higher education. Twinning programs, joint degrees, exchanges of students and professors, sharing of curriculum, and other relationships are possible and more likely to ensure that essential Indian control over Indian higher education is maintained.

So far, India’s main contribution to world higher education is the export of students, many of whom do not return. India needs to engage more with the rest of the world, but not at the expense of giving up academic sovereignty. Higher education is not, in the end, purely a commodity to be bought and sold on the international market. Higher education represents an essential part of a nation’s patrimony and a key to future prosperity.


(Philip G. Altbach is Monan University Professor and Director of the Centre for International Higher Education at Boston College, USA.)

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Tanaji » 15 Jul 2008 16:17

So Acharya, are for or against the entry of foreign educational institutions?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby svinayak » 16 Jul 2008 07:37

Tanaji wrote:So Acharya, are for or against the entry of foreign educational institutions?

Why ask me?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jul 2008 08:16

International Math Olympiad starts in few hours..(July 16-17) .Any guess who will win? Good luck to India and US teams :)

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Tanaji » 16 Jul 2008 17:33

Just curious since you posted the article and highlighted certain elements of it. What are your views on the same?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 16 Jul 2008 20:20

"Internationalising" Indian education is an urgent need of Goras, not of Indians. The acute dearth of high-quality school and colleges in enough numbers is because Indians have been barred from starting these, or there is a strangelhold of bureacrats through permits and licenses.

The real reason why enough colleges don't exist in India is because under the dead-brained socialists of India, education is considered a charitable activity and at no cost do these old men ruling us (Arjun Singh, etc.) want to allow private entrepreneurship in education.

This scarcity in higher education is deliberately inflicted by the government on us because of restrictive regulations that tie the hands of citizens and bar them from create new educational opportunities. Once scarcity has been created and there is a massive demand, the bureacrats and politicians turn rogue captialists by only awarding themselves permissions to run colleges and benefit immensely by charging a huge amount from students.

First untie the hands of Indians to run educational institutes in their own country, before thinking of inviting outsiders pretending that Indians are incapable of coming up with adequate educational institutions of a high quality.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 16 Jul 2008 20:57

I don't see any reasons for concerns... why ?

Higher Education as such is a lucrative field for investment..now if foreign institues or organisations want to enter this domain they will have to provide education ,infra and other logistics at competitive prices in order to attract students in decent numbers.

Now unlike the private institues across the various small/major cities unless they have somthing more to offer at competitive prices I don't see why students will opt for the latter, i.e. close interface with the industry,fostering research by promoting faculty/student exchange programme among the local and the primary institute, specially for Masters and Phd programmes.

From a layman's pov this is a win win situation, as for the quality of educatio imparted well, if its bad it will be relegated to just like any other Private institute or else it will draw quality students and faculty based on Infra dn the Cost of eductaion.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Tanaji » 16 Jul 2008 21:20

"Internationalising" Indian education is an urgent need of Goras, not of Indians. The acute dearth of high-quality school and colleges in enough numbers is because Indians have been barred from starting these, or there is a strangelhold of bureacrats through permits and licenses.

The real reason why enough colleges don't exist in India is because under the dead-brained socialists of India, education is considered a charitable activity and at no cost do these old men ruling us (Arjun Singh, etc.) want to allow private entrepreneurship in education.


Sanjay, while I agree completely with your views that private Indians are prohibited from setting up institutes, to be honest the record of "private" colleges that exist is not great either. If you notice, there is no dearth of seats for engineering, especially in places like Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. What is sorely lacking is the quality by which these engineering colleges put out their graduates. By personal experience, it varies from pathetic to average with a few bright spots as an exception. Also, these private colleges although are fronted by a "non-profit" trust, are really out to make maximum profit for their promoter. So the profit motive is still there, and in a sense private entities are already there.
So, the argument that Indian colleges are pathetic and there is a shortage because private sector is not allowed does not really hold, at least for engineering colleges.

I think International colleges should be allowed as long as they dont enter the Humanities, Social sciences type of sectors and are restricted to engineering or medical science.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vera_k » 17 Jul 2008 10:37

There should be some quality standards prescribed for foreign institutions looking to set up shop in India. Many of the colleges here in the US are no better than the low quality private colleges in India and having them set up shop will not be a win in terms of improving the education imparted.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby svinayak » 17 Jul 2008 10:47

Tanaji wrote:Just curious since you posted the article and highlighted certain elements of it. What are your views on the same?

Why is my answer needed?

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 17 Jul 2008 10:58

vera_k wrote:There should be some quality standards prescribed for foreign institutions looking to set up shop in India. Many of the colleges here in the US are no better than the low quality private colleges in India and having them set up shop will not be a win in terms of improving the education imparted.

Vera ji..I am all for quality control, but that control should be in place irrespective of foreign institutions being established in desh or not. Point being their credibility should be judged purely on their merit alone , stuff like 'AICTE' accreditation and 'autonomy' will
be governed like for any other institute.

On a positive side I see these institutes filling in the gaps left by the GOI or other private institutes for the lack of funds or other miscellaneous reasons .

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vera_k » 17 Jul 2008 22:48

negi wrote:I am all for quality control, but that control should be in place irrespective of foreign institutions being established in desh or not. Point being their credibility should be judged purely on their merit alone , stuff like 'AICTE' accreditation and 'autonomy' will be governed like for any other institute.


Agreed. As long as they are subject to the same rules as any other college in India, there shouldn't be an issue. Some deterrent for operators out to make a quick buck is needed, that's all.

In any case, the ones having name recognition with hiring managers don't need the government's stamp of approval. Foreign universities will be a useful tool to force the government to drop the license raj on education, so more power to them.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 20 Jul 2008 01:52

India is shutting the door on Britain's top institutions

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 69328.html

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2008 09:28

its official, for better or worse, 8 new IITS will start this academic session.

I see gun flashes of counter battery fire on the horizon, so I will depart this
thread asap.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Amber G. » 21 Jul 2008 00:51

X post from nukkad:
International Math Olympiad:
India got 5 bronze and 1 HM, congratulations to the team.

full score here: http://www.imo-official.org/year_individual_r.aspx?year=2008
Impressive result by China (2 perfect scores).
Rank: China 1, Russia 2 USA 3 , Korea 4 Iran 5 .
India : Ranked 31 if I can count correctly

US 4 golds, 2 silver. (One perfect score) Excellent job here too.

The raw scores for the india's team:
(Name/ marks in 6 problems / total/ rank/rank_% / medal)
Ankit Ashok Baraskar 7 1 0 7 1 0 16 212 60.49 Bronze
Rudradev Basak 7 4 1 3 2 0 17 199 62.92 Bronze medal
Abhinav Garg 7 1 0 4 2 0 14 268 50.00 Honourable mention
Anirudh Gurjale 5 7 1 6 0 0 19 170 68.35 Bronze medal
Prashant Sohani 7 7 0 0 3 1 18 186 65.36 Bronze medal
Utkarsh Tripathi 7 7 0 4 1 0 19 170 68.35 Bronze medal

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby vera_k » 21 Jul 2008 01:33

The math olympiad is not a priority for students in India. I graduated 10th grade in '92, and this was the priority of exams then -

* National Talent Search (9th/10th grade)
* Std 10th Board
* IIT and/or Std 12th Board

I doubt much has changed since then. If the IMO is to be relevant in the Indian context, then there should be weightage to the results in professional college admissions.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2008 03:00

Excellent job by Iran. Well India can console itself that in the big scheme of dharma, illusions such as math and Olympic sport rankings mean little. We are spiritual only.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 21 Jul 2008 03:37

sanjaykumar wrote:Excellent job by Iran. Well India can console itself that in the big scheme of dharma, illusions such as math and Olympic sport rankings mean little. We are spiritual only.

And winning a cpl of golds in the olympiads would get everyone in India gruel for the next day, right?!

Before someone pounces on this line of reasoning to say research etc should be done and dusted for the same reason, can Amber G et al who are so in desperation that India has not won golds at olympiads et al post the data for the statistical correlation between olympiad golds and fundamental res contributions. Dont quote Terry Tao's case, for heavens sake. I want undeniable data points, not your personal opinion.

I must state that I have no data points beyond the following. I personally know three INMO gold medallists from my batch, who are currently doing financial consulting :rotfl: (unrelated to math and prob of course), a Msoft job :rotfl: :rotfl:, and owning a startup (selling network routers) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:. One of em I have never seen near fundamental research. The other two found some excuse or the other in derailing their res careers. If I can venture a guess, there might be very few who are really inclined to the math part to take part in this olympiad gyliampiad nonsense. Most of them do it to show their appendages are bigger than the rest, pure ego sentiment. Sorry that is not sustainable in the long run, except for a few exceptional examples.

The reason I am confident in my claim is because olympiad et al happens when people are really really young, 17 at worst, when they have no fricking clue as to what they want beyond what they see as supposed peer culture. I have seen more doofuses at 21 at the end of an undergrad degree without a clue as to what they wanna do in life. Sorry guys, beyond a few liberal whines about how no medals in olympiad means we are a terrible culture, I cant see any logic to this whinefest.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2008 04:43

I think you are missing the point-it would be naive to infer from these rankings that there is a dearth of mathematical talent or motivated teenagers, in India. The ones who did represent India need to be congratulated and admired.

This is a comment on the lack of a culture of competitiveness that is dispayed by GOI-which unlike China does not seem to entrain promising kids into intensive training (I fully understand that this would probably be anathema to Indian concepts of human rights). But unlike the US, India also lacks an informal cultivation AND reward system to enable those with potential to do what they want to do, such that chemists and mathematicians are doing coding and internet coaching or answering support service calls in India.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby negi » 21 Jul 2008 05:02

Stan ji.. fwiw IMO definitely is not the end of the road , the point is we need to popularize Mathematics and basic sciences by leveraging an already existing competition which is pretty much a world standard. And imo NTSE , National Maths/Phy/Chem olympiads are steps in the correct direction, all we need to ensure is we are able to send our best students to the IMO by motivating enough students to make use of National level competitions.

The instances of gold medalists opting for other fields is a personal decision, as it is the IITians (or alumni from nation universities) who are into academics/ research are working in US/EU the rest opt for CAT or the ITVITY route .

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 21 Jul 2008 05:22

sanjaykumar wrote:I think you are missing the point-it would be naive to infer from these rankings that there is a dearth of mathematical talent or motivated teenagers, in India. The ones who did represent India need to be congratulated and admired.

I would like to admire and appreciate everyone who represents India in any form that is positive. In that sense, these people also belong to the club. Kudos for doing what many others could not. Wishes and hopes that they could do more.

Nevertheless, my question is simple: How many of these folks who end up preparing for IMO/IPO/IChO/JEE or whatever else there exists end up doing fundamental research that is worthy of note? What is the statistics for India? How about the US/China/Eye-ran/Eye-rack/whatever else country exists? I just posited a hypothesis that this conversion rate is a pittance. The ball is in your guys' court to disprove it so that I can shut up.

My other question is why is the conversion rate so low?! Are these guys so mentally exhausted preparing mindlessly for exams that dont bring in anything constructive except to tell China and Eye-ran, "Look here, my d.... is loonger." Sitting around in conferences and workshops, this is precisely what I hear from the biggies. So I apologize for the crude words, esp if it hurts you. I know what afflicts the JEE and why people go to the cruise mode, after entering the vaunted IITs. I am positing the same syndrome afflicts a vast majority of these guys who sit in elite coaching zones for INMO prep camps, IMO prep camps and Inter-galactic appendage-fest prep camps.

While IMO etc are competitive exams, I dont see a connection between an IMO and solving fundamental problems, supposed statistical correlation nonetheless. So if thats the case, why is this BS a part of the educational thread? I see your point, I dont see why its here though.


This is a comment on the lack of a culture of competitiveness that is dispayed by GOI

Boss, lack of competition in India?! Its a dog-eat-dog world in India, if you are not aware of things. Have you seen prep camps for JEE which have become rituals of their own sort. People start preparing from 8th std onwards for this, if I am not mistaken. All for an exam that they can take after 12th. Competition is alive and kicking in India, for things that are seen as leading to a better quality of life. Sorely, IMOs or IPOs have not had a history of leading to a better life for anyone, and surely not in vast numbers. Indians are too practical to worry about how long our appendages are. We prove how long it is in being the 2nd most populous country in the world. Sorry, thats Indian way of life.


India also lacks an informal cultivation AND reward system to enable those with potential to do what they want to do, such that chemists and mathematicians are doing coding and internet coaching or answering support service calls in India.

Chemists and math folks are doing coding jobs. Yes, happens. What is the connection between that and IMO? Sorry, I cant see it. There are a 1008 things that afflict India. We have nt seen a single constructive solution here to fix one thing. Sorry I am just in a very ballistic frame of mind today.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 21 Jul 2008 05:36

negi wrote:The instances of gold medalists opting for other fields is a personal decision, as it is the IITians (or alumni from nation universities) who are into academics/ research are working in US/EU the rest opt for CAT or the ITVITY route .

Boss, I respect their personal decisions. The Indian system does too. Thats why we are not a stupid autocrazy like Chicom-land forcing folks to prepare for the OG or olympiads. If we have to do something, we have to strip down to our undies, turn our backsides at the chicoms and laugh at their infantile and insecure fantasies.

But my point is not that. When 99.99% of the INMO gold medallists opt for alternate routes to earn an income, it means that the system is wrong in picking these folks who dont have the sustainable interest to fish in the deeper ends of the lake. {Same logic applies for JEE, if you wanted to know my opinion on that. I would also kill myself if I saw the day when 99.99% of the folks end up doing researchy jobs. We need a good mix of the IT-vitys, researchers, laal-prifasars, admin-waalahs, paan-waalahs etc. IOW, we need a well-rounded institution, not a joke or a farce by blowing a part of the taxpayers cash.}

Research is a marathon, you dont sprint one day, huff and puff after that, and say let me get a real life. Ask any prof in grad school in the US who would he want: A super-smart prima-donna that needs prodding to finish his dissertation, or a so-so-guy who works his bum off and keeps churning reasonably ok stuff till the point where he is prepared to take off to produce great stuff based on his sustainable intuition. Oh well, we have many laal-prifasars on this very forum, why not ask them?

IOW, my question is: Why are these prima donnas in need of coaxing to do something that would seem to be their natural forte? Kapiche?!

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2008 05:57

Err yes there is plenty of competition in India, it's the Government of India that has not evolved a sustainable reward system to give these people an opportunity at the international level.

When 99.99% of the INMO gold medallists opt for alternate routes to earn an income, it means that the system is wrong in picking these folks who don't have the sustainable interest to fish in the deeper ends of the lake.

Any idea of what the Soviets did for their chess prodigies? It would be instructive to find out. For something as remote from roti, kapda, makaan and red-star missiles, chess was seen as a contest with the capitalist world. Potential was picked up early, apartments and dachas were sourced, pensions were payed, restrictions on travel were lifted, public adulation was encouraged. And the soviets responded by producing grandmasters in spades.

What does GOI do for these IMO aspirants? I mean that question literally.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Amber G. » 21 Jul 2008 06:06

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Excellent job by Iran. Well India can console itself that in the big scheme of dharma, illusions such as math and Olympic sport rankings mean little. We are spiritual only.

And winning a cpl of golds in the olympiads would get everyone in India gruel for the next day, right?!

Before someone pounces on this line of reasoning to say research etc should be done and dusted for the same reason, can Amber G et al who are so in desperation that India has not won golds at olympiads et al post the data for the statistical correlation between olympiad golds and fundamental res contributions. Dont quote Terry Tao's case, for heavens sake. I want undeniable data points, not your personal opinion.

I must state that I have no data points beyond the following. I personally know three INMO gold medallists from my batch, who are currently doing financial consulting :rotfl: (unrelated to math and prob of course), a Msoft job :rotfl: :rotfl:, and owning a startup (selling network routers) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:. One of em I have never seen near fundamental research. The other two found some excuse or the other in derailing their res careers. If I can venture a guess, there might be very few who are really inclined to the math part to take part in this olympiad gyliampiad nonsense. Most of them do it to show their appendages are bigger than the rest, pure ego sentiment. Sorry that is not sustainable in the long run, except for a few exceptional examples.

The reason I am confident in my claim is because olympiad et al happens when people are really really young, 17 at worst, when they have no fricking clue as to what they want beyond what they see as supposed peer culture. I have seen more doofuses at 21 at the end of an undergrad degree without a clue as to what they wanna do in life. Sorry guys, beyond a few liberal whines about how no medals in olympiad means we are a terrible culture, I cant see any logic to this whinefest.

Stan - At first blush, I though you were talking about IMO gold medalist.. then I realize you had INMO .. I don't know what one means by 'INMO gold medalist' so it will be helpful if you tell me what that means. In USA, about 200 (out of 600,000 who start the process) qualifies for USAMO, 6 top students competes in IMO, and if the do well there, they win medals..

As I said, IMO medal is not necessary or sufficient to be a good mathematician . But correlation - certainly! Very high indeed.

As the IMO participant to pool ratio is about 1 in 100,000 so one would not see too many IMO medalist in professional mathematical field, (if there was no correlation) but..
You said that you have no data point, but a simple google or wiki is easy thing to do. Just google any random IMO medalist in last 10-20 years and see what they are up to. By ANY criteria you choose to define they are doing very impressive stuff. I would like if you do it, then report it here, what you found.
(I just checked wikipedia article about IMO - it lists several famous cases where the participants went on to do better things)


MANY have gone to win Fields Medal (equivalent to Nobel prize). (expected value, if there were no correlation would be close to zero )

Virtually ALL (or huge majority) have good careerer , many ( A huge percentage ) who are old enough have prestigious professorships, and younger ones are grad/undergrad students in best of best universities.


You don't have to take my word for it, just Google some random names from IMO list.

(Honestly I don;t have the statistics, and not even interested in exact numbers, you can find it out easily - I am sure it exists many places. I am not interested in exact stat because it does not matter to me. If I or my kids want to take part in these competition, they would take part if they find if fun.. else not)

fwiw, from my data (sample size few dozen) virtually EVERY imo medal winner i can think of, has gotten to best college of their choice (with full tution scholarships etc)

Even for usamo qualifier , say for MIT or Caltech or Duke, I know of NOT a single case (from people I know or my friends know etc... I am sure there would be exception to this) where a person who qualified for USAMO and did not get in. Compare that with SAT scores, IIRC MIT's published data had something like 50% or more had 800 in Math. The acceptance rate there was about 20% for perfect SAT math scores - for USA qualifiers (MIT actaully asks for one's score for usamo/aime etc scores) the acceptance rate is virtually 100%. (MIT admissions certainly think that IMO/USAMO is a good criteria.
(Again, I am sure there would be cases where a USAMO qualifier did not get in some top notch school ... but my point is that percentage is virtually zero or in single digit)

I am sure, there are exceptions, and usamo/imo is no guarantee for success in later life, but it certainly is fun for people who enjoys it and carry a good reputation which may help.

But then your criteria for what call success can be different from mine or others ... and you may be right ... I just wanted to give another perspective.
Last edited by Amber G. on 21 Jul 2008 06:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 21 Jul 2008 06:14

sanjaykumar wrote:Err yes there is plenty of competition in India, it's the Government of India that has not evolved a sustainable reward system to give these people an opportunity at the international level.

I would blame GoI for a 1000 things, but blaming GoI for not sustaining or entertaining IMOs, boss you are joking right? If you did nt realize, the JEE system came into being after GoI forced the IITs to develop a better framework given the huge interests from all and sundry in studying at IITs. You had a remark elsewhere on this forum that we should nt blame JLN or Gujral etc for they had different things to balance and they did the best that they could. I agree with that logic, but how come that logic of yours misses this aspect here?! Curious onree.


When 99.99% of the INMO gold medallists opt for alternate routes to earn an income, it means that the system is wrong in picking these folks who don't have the sustainable interest to fish in the deeper ends of the lake.

Any idea of what the Soviets did for their chess prodigies? It would be instructive to find out. For something as remote from roti, kapda, makaan and red-star missiles, chess was seen as a contest with the capitalist world. Potential was picked up early, apartments and dachas were sourced, pensions were payed, restrictions on travel were lifted, public adulation was encouraged. And the soviets responded by producing grandmasters in spades.

Ahem, one question before we head to more complicated ones. Where is SU these days?!


What does GOI do for these IMO aspirants? I mean that question literally.

GoI has a job in ensuring that people dont starve from famines et al. The department of HRD is entrusted with the job that people learn enough to get a paycheck. Its job is to ensure that a significant % of the population dont go uneducated and hence, lack a livelihood worthy of note. It may have failed in this job. Fundamental research is not accorded a huge priority with these broad goals in mind. Despite that fundamental res gets some support. Well, more can be done and will be done, as we get richer. IMOs are expendable as they dont ve anything constructive to show for us {at least till now}, and I mean that literally. When we get rich enough to afford showing off our appendages, we can have GoI sponsored educational trinkets, till then private enthusiasm has to be the only way to sustain these efforts. Sorry if that gets your goats, but thats how things have been run. And thats how they will be.

Added later: FWIW, I also advocate the Gaussian tail cultivation. But the question in my head is what fraction of IMO corresponds to Gaussian tail in terms of fundamental res? I believe its small. If thats the case, there is a need for a new metric that quantifies capacity to do fundamental res, not some ad hoc, "China does this and that or SU did that, so we will."
Last edited by Stan_Savljevic on 21 Jul 2008 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby Amber G. » 21 Jul 2008 06:18

Nevertheless, my question is simple: How many of these folks who end up preparing for IMO/IPO/IChO/JEE or whatever else there exists end up doing fundamental research that is worthy of note? What is the statistics for India? How about the US/China/Eye-ran/Eye-rack/whatever else country exists? I just posited a hypothesis that this conversion rate is a pittance. The ball is in your guys' court to disprove it so that I can shut up.


I think you can easily find the answer to your statistical question. As IMO data is easily available, and google would tell what that person is doing, if he has done notable work.

I think for India Gold IMO winners the data is about 100% who go in fundamental research or go on to respectable work (If I am wrong, you can easily check the number) .

Only gold medalist I can think right away is Kiran Kedalya (actually, I think he is a US citizen) who have won a gold. He is a MIT math professor.

Disclaimer: Part of the data, is not checked, so don't quote it or take it without checking - some part can be easily wrong - I will gladly correct it.
Last edited by Amber G. on 21 Jul 2008 06:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Education System-2

Postby G Subramaniam » 21 Jul 2008 06:31

Actually,
I have been tracking the NRI academic performance

In the US 2008 math olympiad team

http://www.maa.org/news/061608usimo.html

there are 3 whites, 1 chinese and 2 Indians


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