Indian Education System

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UlanBatori
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Jan 2020 02:42

As for Practical Exam, let me recite my own experience.
FIRST-semester at the Gulag-ul-Adyar a.k.a. Eye-Eye-Tea-Em. Back in the age where dinosaurs roamed the forest **AND** the halls of the MSB and HSB and the forest wasn't trashed with rusting metal and concrete and paper and plastic like it is todin. Taramani was a muddy street with one shops selling trinkets and one Petromax light when it worked. Velachery was a fine mud street with a public pakistan that had never been washed, and the tea-shop with the Open-Air Seating served tea from that fine air, giving immunity to all who drank it. One feared to look out the barred back window of one's cell at night because one could hear tigers slurping.

Pissicks Practical Exam. The entire Pissicks Dept had a reputation that has scarred me for life, horribly borne out by my later experience even on PeeAref.
The official teacher was an entity (RB), who came in dressed like Sir CV Raman. Chilling, if one read novels about axe murderers who went around dressed like Einstein on the theory that this made them as smart. Person with extreme chips on both shoulders, and deadly aim with the chalk bit, which had struck me between the eyes many times in the 1PM class in the Pissicks Gulag Auditorium.

FIRST item in the test was some green goo in a tall Burette, that one had to "tie-trate" whatever into a tiny dish. I TOUCHED the stop-cock, and it came away in my hand: the green goo spilled all over the desk. RB came rushing over, a face like that of an Axe Murderer on Friday the 13th Part IV seeing a promising victim.

Then started the real action. Dr. "SUssex" (so named because his peecheedee was from Sussex and he let everyone know that, because it was the last time he had done any work, came rushing towards my station. He had absolutely no business there - RB was already cleaning up the mess after telling me to clear away and stand to a side.
GIVE HIM A ZERO! GIVE HIM A ZERO!!!
Still rings in my ears.

And then it got a whole lot worse: The Most Feared Prof. SN Himself, with Al Qaeda beard and Russian Peecheedee, who used to come in with a Hawaiian shirt with buttons half open (maybe fallen off) on his hairy chest, and reputation to match, came strolling over in his menacing Tyrannosaurus Rex gait, chuckling in Tamil:
Ennada? Don't know how to operate a simple Burette?


RB moved away like a Brontosaurus seeing a T-Rex. Sussex stood by with an evil grin of anticipation: Maybe SN would cuff the ears of the brat. Maybe throw him down from the 3rd floor lab?

He went to touch the burette, by now re-installed and re-filled with green goo.

Terror of mpending cataclysm overpowered my existing terror. I warned him in my shaky voice:
Sssiirr.... tthte sssstttttopppccccockkk isss looooosssse....

SN ignored me breezily as befits a T-Rex ignoring an ant. Touched the stopcock. The Laws of Physics, thank Alla*, came to the rescue, and the stopcock came off in SN's hand. Green Goo spilled all over the desk.

I would have laughed if I were not so sure that the Axe Murder was about to happen.

When I found out why SN was a Professor, and Sussex was an Asst Prof and RB, old and disgruntled, was still a Lecturer.
TAKE THIS PIECE OF GARBAGE AWAY!
My eyes were probably closed, I assumed he was referring to me.
AND GIVE THIS STUDENT A PROPER PIECE OF EQUIPMENT! AND DON'T YOU DARE REDUCE HIS GRADE! IT IS YOUR JOB TO KEEP LAB EQUIPMENT PROPERLY WORKING BEFORE EXAMINATIONS!


Didn't seem wise to ask if I would get extra time, because I didn't see that that would help at all, given my state of panic.
RB's face was nearly as red as his "Gopi" and the lipstick I am sure he wore. Sussex slinked away at high speed like a hyena in the presence of a lion.
****************************

Moral of the story: students are usually in a panic at Practical Exams. You have to ask WHY there needs to be a Practical Exam at all, if there is honest grading and assessment through the semester, with students encouraged to actually master the skills, rather than cheat on the weekly lab and Record-writing.

Of course all this was Karma. In Pre-Degree classes, it was my assigned military mission to have the English textbook open and ask bright questions from time to time, to distract the Enemy while we (my second-from-last-row Team) scrambled to copy the Physics Lab Record needed for the lab period following the class. Which worked fine until one day the teacher accidentally turned 2 pages at once in his book, so when I asked my question, with my predictive algorithm guiding where he SHOULD have reached, he said:"Huh?" because he had entirely skipped that section and had never seen it. :eek:
So why did we "cheat" on those labs? Because we were 16, but more to the point, there was no sense that we were TRUSTED not to cheat. "Everyone did it". Those who studied were treated worse than those who did not, and we grew up cynical.

vinamr_s
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vinamr_s » 27 Jan 2020 08:38

Namaste UlonBatori-ji

I assume your argument is that creating a stricter examination system will increase stress and frustration among innocent students who are doing their practicals honestly. With due respect, I see that wrong on many levels:

1. If a student is innocent and knows how to do an experiment and the intricacies behind it, why does he needs to be frustrated by a strict system? He will be happy instead. I'll explain how:

2. My system will prevent non-deserving students from getting 30/30 (as most of them are getting write now) in practicals. But, the current system promotes this! So, I see a huge flaw here. When the innocent student sees that his friend who didn't study at all, but copied reading from lab assistant or other students and got marks equal to him (the innocent student), won't he feel more frustrated? His friend who didn't even study got as good marks as he got.

He might even stop studying for the next practical exam and this is how the current system is prone to reduce the number of innocent students.

So, in my view making practical examinations stricter will only benefit honest students and is in perfect accordance with:

ALL Policies Must Be For The Betterment and Support of the Honest Hardworking Student.

UlanBatori
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Jan 2020 09:58

The problem above is not lack of strict rules, it is biss-boor ethics and standards on the part of the instructors and administrators. My argument is that creating stricter rules only bothers those who obey rules. It is usually - almost invariably - a cop-out by people who are not doing their jobs in enforcing common sense / existing rules.
If a college sets out any exam, the rules are already there: you either do the exam honestly or you get expelled. No other strict rule needs to be added. It is up to the examiners to support the students making an honest effort, and flunk the others. This can be done even if there are **NO** other written rules. Conversely, another rule addition exercise will achieve nothing. The same people who did not do their jobs properly under the old system will not do their jobs under the new system. Another tweaking with "wherein" and "Heruntofore" etc is not going to faze them.

India needs a PaperWork Reduction Act. A total scrapping of Rules and re-instatement of only those very simple ones that are essential. Also fire 75% of the bureaucracy who now make work for others by creating new Forms.

If the Practical Exam is a failure, who not close the lab and fire the people managing and operating the labs? If this prospect exists, the problem will go away, I believe. Extend that to the whole college. Perhaps after that happens to a couple of colleges, others might wake up. Those who want practical experience can get it by getting a part-time job at the local chemist's shop.

Look at it this way:
1. The student's job in school is to LEARN THE SUBJECTS. Not "write exams" or "study for tests".
2. The Teacher's job in school is to GUIDE THE LEARNERS. And help students to see where they need improvement and how well they are able to use what they have learned.
Neither of the above involve wasting time filling out forms. So that distraction must be brutally minimized.

Imagine that a test paper is given out, with only the finish time indicated. No "Rules" etc. Will the results be any different? People who try stunts and then say "But you did not tell us we couldn't do that" :(( should be laughed off. That will convey the message.

vinamr_s
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby vinamr_s » 27 Jan 2020 10:19

The problem above is not lack of strict rules, it is biss-boor ethics and standards on the part of the instructors and administrators. My argument is that creating stricter rules only bothers those who obey rules. It is usually - almost invariably - a cop-out by people who are not doing their jobs in enforcing common sense / existing rules.
If a college sets out any exam, the rules are already there: you either do the exam honestly or you get expelled. No other strict rule needs to be added. It is up to the examiners to support the students making an honest effort, and flunk the others. This can be done even if there are **NO** other written rules. Conversely, another rule addition exercise will achieve nothing. The same people who did not do their jobs properly under the old system will not do their jobs under the new system. Another tweaking with "wherein" and "Heruntofore" etc is not going to faze them.

The system I proposed - including questions based on experiments in theory exams (just like JEE-Advanced) only reduces the need for examiners to be strict during practicals. Theory exams are already much stricter than practical exams, so we don't need any extra strictness to implement this.
If the Practical Exam is a failure, who not close the lab and fire the people managing and operating the labs? If this prospect exists, the problem will go away, I believe. Extend that to the whole college. Perhaps after that happens to a couple of colleges, others might wake up.

Practical exam is a failure, so shut the labs?!
Those who want practical experience can get it by getting a part-time job at the local chemist's shop.

So should we also shut the education system as a whole. Those who want education can get it by going to a private tutor!
Look at it this way:
1. The student's job in school is to LEARN THE SUBJECTS. Not "write exams" or "study for tests".
2. The Teacher's job in school is to GUIDE THE LEARNERS. And help students to see where they need improvement and how well they are able to use what they have learned.
Neither of the above involve wasting time filling out forms. So that distraction must be brutally minimized.

It's the poor efficiency of guiding and learning which has compelled us to have a test-reward based system. Testing acts as a motivation (positive or negative, depends on how you look at it) for teachers to GUIDE THE LEARNERS and students to LEARN THE SUBJECTS. So, testing improves efficiency in teachers and students and cannot be ignored.

UlanBatori
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Jan 2020 22:04

But ethics standards of teachers and administrators is the area requiring most attention. It is the lack of that, which hurts the testing and turns it into an increasing level of police-state nonsense.

Most of the "forms" required by Indian education institutions and other government institutions will not stand up to challenge based on the Constitution. So adding more junk because those don't "work" is simply because the Form Creators are not used to the idea of having to examine options to just creating new forms.

Thanks for the opportunity to air my opinions and experience on this. Let's take this statement:
It's the poor efficiency of guiding and learning which has compelled us to have a test-reward based system.

No. Testing and rewards are required based on human nature. But look at the Indian "SOP": Instead of focusing on testing understanding of the subject matter,

1. Hall-Tickets
2. "False-numbering"
3. "Question Banks"
4. An increasing pile of Regulations.
5. Tuition Classes to train students to be test-taking robots because the teachers paid to teach, are unable/unwilling to teach.

All of these are because no one challenges the creation and existence of these Forms. And Queues to stand in, to Submit Forms. The whole mentality of EXPECTING to be ordered around and be treated as criminals-in-waiting, not as growing Citizens.

More and more staff needed to police these.
More bureaucrats to deal with the staff.
More budget for more bureaucrats.
More Regulations for more bureaucrats.

Fire them all, and start over. Gurukula system worked very well with minimal overhead. Even in pre-Internet days. So why not now?
Yes I know, it is The System. But where better to start improving, than at the child level?
If you don't instill true respect for freedom, the nation is heading to become a nation of herds that can be led, and/or adults who grow up with no self-imposed discipline.

Ask yourself: Can you leave a packet of 2000-rupee ModiNotes in the hallway and come back next day expecting to find it still there (which is apathy, not necessarily honesty) or handed in to the Office (and still there!!)??

When we were growing up, the rural people, the ricksha-pullers and others actually HAD that standard of inner discipline and honesty.

UlanBatori
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jan 2020 18:07

Slightly OT but IMO, not OT: this is the result of the Indian Education System.

I asked Air India's Flying Returns to please change my email address from an official work address to a gmail. They responded within 24 hours! AWESOME or what? Here is the response:

Flying Returns <donotreply@loyaltyplus.aero>
KYC documents uploaded by you have been verified to match details on your profile.
Incase the name on your Flying Returns-FFP profile was different than that on the passport or photo ID uploaded by you, same has been corrected and updated.
Now you can avail the benefits of Flying Returns Program.


From CHGMYREGD FFPEMAIL <chgmyregdffpemail@airindia.in>

Dear Member,

As your Email OTP has been verified by you, a service fee will be charged.

The fee for changing the registered unique Email for the first time will be 420 FR points with each subsequent change
invoking an increase of 1000 points to the last charged penalty making the charges as follows-
> 1st change of Unique Registered Mobile Number or E-mail ID @ 420 FR Points.
> 2nd change of Unique Registered Mobile Number or E-mail ID @ 1420 FR Points.
> 3rd change of Unique Registered Mobile Number or E-mail ID @ 2420 FR Points.
> 4th change of Unique Registered Mobile Number or E-mail ID @ 3420 FR Points and so on.
If you agree to pay the service fee, kindly write a request on the self-attested copy of your passport. In the request kindly mention the following-
1) Name and Nine Digit FFP Number
2) Existing Registered Email ID
3) Existing Registered Mobile Number
4) New Email ID with the relevant reason for the change
5) Assurance cum Undertaking not to seek a change of Email in next six months
6) Approval for charging the Service fee
7) Date of Request
The Request should be sent from the Email id that needs to be updated.
For further clarification about the request refer to the following link:
http://www.airindia.in/images/pdf/Q-1-A ... k-Here.pdf

If the change of email is from official to personal, then kindly mention this in your request. If your request is found legible then no service fee will be charged.

Regards,
Team FFP
Air India



IOW, instead of spending 5 seconds changing the email in their records, they send me that and ask me to Fill Out This Form With Self-Attested That and This other and pay them - and UNDERTAKE NOT TO REQUEST ANOTHER EMAIL CHANGE FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE THAT MIGHT CREATE MORE WORK FOR THEM.
5) Assurance cum Undertaking not to seek a change of Email in next six months


Unfortunately if I send that Steel Wire Salute they will probably get the Honnorabal Mantri to ban me and get other airlines to ban me, so it is better to just let their junk mail go to my old address.

Barath
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Barath » 29 Jan 2020 19:16

That's because Air India is a service organization. After all, our revered father of the nation, mahatma Gandhi said

A customer is the most important visitor on our premises.
He is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him.
He is not an interruption on our work. He is the purpose of it.
He is not an outsider on our business. He is part of it.
We are not doing him a favour by serving him.
He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.

And air india being a true national carrier has imbibed this ethos and faithfully followed it in their interaction with you in your frequent flyer email change request.

You should tweet this

Amber G.
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Amber G. » 29 Jan 2020 23:27

Meanwhile I am glad that we are recognizing and empowering also the scientists who are in the business of tech development and innovation. Abdul Kalam National Fellowship is a step in that direction.
7 scientists awarded Abdul Kalam Technology Innovation National Fellowship for 2019-2020
Image

saip
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby saip » 30 Jan 2020 09:36

Why does Air India need KYC documents to register for their frequent flyer program? Other airlines, it takes two minutes to register. I tried once and gave up when I saw all those requirements. I even emailed them about it and sure enough I did get a 'Dear Customer' reply saying it is not their fault.

On top of that they wanted my father's name who is dead and gone. Don't they ever change their forms? In case of women they want their husband's name. In this day and age.

Amber G.
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Amber G. » 31 Jan 2020 09:13

Meanwhile .. another IIT graduate is in the news .. Arvind Krishna is CEO of IBM.

Meet Arvind Krishna, the IIT Kanpur graduate who will be new CEO of IBM

Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Nikhil T » 01 Feb 2020 06:34

saip wrote:Why does Air India need KYC documents to register for their frequent flyer program? Other airlines, it takes two minutes to register. I tried once and gave up when I saw all those requirements. I even emailed them about it and sure enough I did get a 'Dear Customer' reply saying it is not their fault.

On top of that they wanted my father's name who is dead and gone. Don't they ever change their forms? In case of women they want their husband's name. In this day and age.


+1 I discovered too that AI requires KYC for Flying Returns and I chose not to fly AI because of this.

In general, our education system focuses on the process and procedure, never on the outcome. A simple "write a letter to your friend" is "memorized" by students and most responses will be carbon copies of each others full of generalities. Instead of teaching students to write a meaningful letter, we optimize for the right process i.e. memorizing and regurgitating.

If you observe the email and marketing of PSU companies and desi companies in general, it lags far behind that of Western counterparts. SBI routinely sends me emails where the entire email is one giant picture and the picture isn't suited to display on mobile devices and none of the text can be copied. Similarly, getting work done at a private bank like HDFC/ICICI is painful because they have long forms (that ask for information the bank already has) and wait times for everything (when some of those tasks are automated and can be done right away).

All of this goes back to our emphasis on "memorizing" and "regurgitating" during schools. If schools include some experiential learning - where kids can take responsibility and work on real world problems, it will help us immensely.

Vayutuvan
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 04 Feb 2020 07:51

Amber G. wrote:Meanwhile .. another IIT graduate is in the news .. Arvind Krishna is CEO of IBM.

Meet Arvind Krishna, the IIT Kanpur graduate who will be new CEO of IBM


another UIUC postgraduate PhD ECE 1990 :)

Amber G.
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Amber G. » 05 Feb 2020 03:52

^^^ Yes. :).

Vayutuvan
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Re: Indian Education System

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Feb 2020 07:01

Amber G. wrote:^^^ Yes. :).

Amber G ji,

I don't know how many people connected the dots between IBM and Urbana. One of his predecessors, Gerstner, stepped down in 2002 from the CEO position. This is just one year after the events described in a novel written by a British author who moved to Sri Lanka have come to pass. There is another connection to Urbana. JvN was at Urbana on a yearlong sabbatical where he was hosted by one of his only two students. He developed major parts of Cellular Automata theory while he was at Urbana and presented his results at Allerton Conference. Mathematica is Hqed Urbana (Champaign).


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