Indian Education System

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Bade
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Postby Bade » 17 Apr 2008 22:17

sanku, quit worrying about me :lol: worry more about what that brand will look like years down the road.

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Postby Stan_Savljevic » 17 Apr 2008 22:39

Sanku wrote:
Stan wrote:As of now, the best use for profs in IISc/IITs is to stop loading them with three courses a year tripe often nuff. Hire more lecturers and TAs for the teaching needs. Allow the professors to focus on research. Throw away the old lot that cant refocus on research -- and trust me, there are these old baggages whose only mojo in life is teach and teach well, I do.

OK this is where I start disagreeing (a dbeate I
had with AlokN ages back too)-- US universities

Actually, a lot of people will disagree with the teaching vs research stuff. The way I put it. I was just very coarse in what I said. Coarse to the point of being misleading. Anyway.

I am not against teaching in general, but from the stage I am in my life, the way I see it is this: I have 24 hrs a day, I can either peddle my work (in the form of writing papers or giving talks or similar stuff), or do new work that gets gestated before going to the peddling mode, or I can prepare for classes, or I can attend ceremonial meetings/committees etc. I believe the 20s-30s is the stage of life where the first two need to be taken care of more and the remaining ones one can get to in their later years.

Teaching is not a bad thing, it low-pass filters and unifies disjoint/discrete ideas into a big picture. But it takes a huge toll on time. Completely abandoning teaching wont serve any benefits to anyone cos as one prepares for some classes, the big picture gets better. But it should not be discouraged to delegate responsibility for teaching "routine" classes. The culture is such that even routine teaching is encouraged. Thats where one needs lecturers and TAs to fill in. Think things are moving to that mode even in India, but a little slowly. In the US, the UG students feel cheated if they pay huge fees and get taught by TAs. Some of it rightly, some of it wrongly. The TA mode needs to be encouraged, at least for basic classes that a full-timer will feel as routine.

If the IITs want to be a research university, they better put more focus on the research aspect than it is now. Hire more researchers, even at a huge cost if need be. At the end of the day, infra is great if it is there. But remember the MIT of the 50s. I have read interviews where people say, they would work in this small lab and what not. It is the people that make the place, not the infra alone. The infra will come, once the good people come. IITs should peddle a lot of carrots and get more folks return. It can cause heartburn to those well entrenched in IITs today, but yea cant help it man.

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Postby R_Kumar » 17 Apr 2008 22:51

Sanku wrote:
OK this is where I start disagreeing (a dbeate I had with AlokN ages back too)-- US universities have gone way too much to the research side; there teaching part has suffered severely. I for one have seen the remarkable drop in the quality of students in US and attribute it to lack of good old teaching. US can make up for it by importing huge numbers from India, China, East Europe and other parts but its basic system is not healthy either.

I believe we should not APE the US system -- there are too many people here on the board who due to their own experience thinks that US is THE system to follow -- primarily since most of their adult experience is there -- but I dont agree.

There are good things about the IIT system we must retain those as we make chanhges


Totally agree with you. Blindly following anything is bad. Lets take their good and leave out not so good.
Teachers, students and infrastructure are three pillars of any good institutes.

IITs have one of the best students, no doubt about that. There are lots of room of improvement in infrastructure. And very small percentage of their teachers are good, most of them are waste.

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Postby Sanku » 17 Apr 2008 23:24

Bade wrote:sanku, quit worrying about me :lol: worry more about what that brand will look like years down the road.


We agree on one thing -- its headed down the drain -- what we disagree on is what is needed.

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Postby Sanku » 17 Apr 2008 23:33

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
I am not against teaching in general, but from the stage I am in my life,


Agree completely -- but you are looking at this from a teachers angle and I from a student when I say teaching focus is good for even high class Guys -- It is my contention that a good researcher should always make time for classes not because they help him -- but the value he brings on the table (as a teacher) is far in excess of what any TA would bring -- even for a routine class -- I have seen this first hand -- even with most "nerdy" researcher profs; his/hers understanding of subject matter itself is like a penny dropping and exposure of such a person is itself a revelation of the depth of a field and not students can be grad students of such a prof.

:wink:

Other than that yes I suppose we are rather in agreement.

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Postby Sanku » 17 Apr 2008 23:38

Rye wrote: and this the selection criteria has to be different, which is the logic behind Stan's and Bade's prescription, and the relevance of Singha's breakdown of the population into A,B, and C groups...we all have our pet prejudices, but sticking to them is not going to help us understand reality.


Thats why UG and PG have different entrance criteria and processes even in IITs etc.

The contention is whether UG needs to be totally done away with and non-teaching focus developed.

I argue for balance.

The IIT model is broken because of poor overall eco-system for research and not merely a institute issue -- the eco system is less of a problem in a lower level course like UG but is a major issue at PG level.

As a aside No IITian is ever likely to worry about being less loved and all there is too much hubris in most IITians for them to suffer about the affliction of worrying about what folks think of IIT. :wink:

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Postby Stan_Savljevic » 17 Apr 2008 23:41

Sanku wrote:
Bade wrote:sanku, quit worrying about me :lol: worry more about what that brand will look like years down the road.

We agree on one thing -- its headed down the drain -- what we disagree on is what is needed.


I guess, it is already gangrenous with the apathy that has set in for so long. High time something is done to fix the mess. Else, we may be forced to amputate this old system (as in, give up on it completely) and get ourselves a new pair of legs. The cost will be high for the ordinary taxpayer who will have to cry through his nose (yet again) for a new pair and the delay in training the legs to walk again, before it can start running.

Seems like we are heading down this direction, irrespective of what you or I think. At the end of the day, the moral of the story is: The value of freedom is understood by those who have fought to win it, not by those who accept it as a God-given right. We will dilute this system instead of fixing it, feel sore that there is none, and then get one built again. Thats what I see happening. As Singha said, lets hope we have nuff $ for that then, whenever that is.

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 00:09

deleted OT
Last edited by Rye on 18 Apr 2008 00:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby bala » 18 Apr 2008 00:21

t is my contention that a good researcher should always make time for classes not because they help him -- but the value he brings on the table (as a teacher) is far in excess of what any TA would bring


Sanku completely agree, gosh, I am agreeing with you more nowadays! Seriously, one of the hallmarks of a good researcher is the ability to convey ideas and enthuse others. When I was in high school, my dad brought in "Feynman Lectures" books and reading the lectures by Feynman ignited my puny mind during those times. How sublime and enlightening were those foundations of physics. Now we all know that Feynman won the Nobel prize in physics but his lectures at Caltech must have spawned a thousand bright minds. I would take a good researcher/lecturer anyday compared to the other bores.

Some of the profs at IIT are damned good in research and lectures. Some are uniquely knowledgeable, no book written had material they presented. Of course we have the usual suspects who are clueless too.

I have been thinking about how to spur research, and increasingly this boils down to two things - competition and money. Masters and PhD can be resuscitated if there is plently of grant money to subsidize the students. Competition can be encouraged by local private industry and govt initiated defence projects. Having defined goals with consulting money thrown in with a competitive enviroment should get the results.

OH on the brand thingy: How about Indian State College ISC in every state. All branches of study are permitted and at Masters/PhD everything is fully subsidized, stipends, tuition etc.

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Postby gashish » 18 Apr 2008 01:06

Duh -- all Indians should care about BRAND IIT -- just as I care about Rashtrapati Bhavan even if cant get in -- similarly the BRAND IIT is important for all even those who cant get in.


Yes, they do and have determined that the intake has to be increased to meet the demand. Hence GoI is adding new IITs,converting existing other premier instiutes,and expanding the current ones! If you dont agree, hard luck mate.

Because I will be employing them or giving them money. I am the market!


Market already knows the value of UCB and employs UCB grads. Sirjee get out of the mental ghetto u r in..to know what market knows. Calling urself market doesnt make u one.

If you dont have anything else other than these emoticons in your posts to merit any attention
:roll: :wink: :rotfl: :P


then please start a new thread "Sanku maharaj's emotions thru his emoticons"

I'm done with you on this thread.

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Postby Bade » 18 Apr 2008 01:13

Also look at TAs as a necessary evil, to train the next generation of teachers. It has to begin right at the Masters level be it in science or engg.

When I earlier mentioned converting IITs to 5+ yrs of MS/MTech, that would include UG foundation as part of the package in the first 3-4 yrs. :) How can you do otherwise ? But the focus has to shift to creating a research culture as the country's needs change. As Indians we want to take pride in all of our institutions. I am saddened at the slow death of our Univ. system due to excessive political interference and activism. Even then we are able to generate gems now and then out of it. How lucky we are to be able to even have that given the horrible ambience of most well known Universities.

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Postby Saral » 18 Apr 2008 05:24

Sanku wrote:
nsriram wrote: This makes everything in India much more elitist.. the elites ARE more important in India due to this spread. Screw the elites also implies that India is screwed...


:eek: :shock: :-?

Huh... I have one word for this sort of thinking......

Manuvadi nonsense (was that two words?)


Maybe you have discounted the possibility that I know a little bit about these matters. By elites I mean intellectual elites; elitism in this sense is likely to have a reasonably strong correlation (but obviously far from perfect) with caste and class. More data needs to be gathered but to assume that all groups in India (or anywhere else) have the same set of talents is absurd. Equal rights and Equal opportunities does not imply everyone/everygroup is born with the same sets of potentials. To assume that this must be is foolhardy. Also we need to take into account the flood of research that is changing the facts on short term effects in natural selection (cf. recent effects of natural selection on the IQ of Ashkenazim).

-----
How do high IQ people rationalize to themselves suppressing mention of national differences in average IQ—especially when they spend so much time thinking about how they, personally, are smarter than other people?

A common stratagem, I've found, is to assume that IQ differences matter only if they are genetic in origin. Since no decent, civilized, right-thinking person could possibly believe that racial differences in IQ have any genetic basis, then racial and national differences in average IQ can't possibly exist.

Except—they do exist.
------

from http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/060423_lynn.htm which considers China vs. India differences..

Also see the smart fraction theory in
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm which should be comprehensible to anyone familar with some statistics. The idea here is that successful societies need to have a threshold percent of citizenry above (a fairly low, compared to the types who frequent this forum) IQ barrier

China has a larger mean but smaller variance (even when compared with many European countries).. but it does seem very likely their smart fraction is higher (even in long term as in 50 years out) than India's.

On the importance of people at the extreme (and not so extreme) tails, see Gangan Prathap's analysis

A soft mathematical model for Brain drain

"The more talented people of any society are disproportionately more important than their sheer numbers would indicate"

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep102003/593.pdf

The distribution of talent in India is something (IMO) of strategic importance and it must be determined as a guide for sensible policy.. political correctness be damned.

Of course there are non-IQ factors.. cultural aspects such as the ability to co-operate.. here is where certain Indian groups may have a serious advantage (Gujaratis come to mind).

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 06:02

Good post. I am going to x-post it on Indian interest thread

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 10:34

nsriram wrote:
elitism in this sense is likely to have a reasonably strong correlation (but obviously far from perfect) with caste and class. More data needs to be gathered but to assume that all groups in India (or anywhere else) have the same set of talents is absurd.


With respect, whether it is absurd or not, everyone needs to be given equal opportunity -- no one gets to decide other than entrance examinations. This kind of social profiling is just unhelpful nonsense.

Damning political correctness is all ok, but the kind of thing that must be avoided is "research" to reinforce existing prejudices, not based on any kind of sound methodology.

If the same claim had been based on data of people across the board getting equal access (and even then the motives would be highly suspect). Determining "distribution of talent" without equal access and claiming that elitism is a good thing is unacceptable.

JMTs

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Postby Sanku » 18 Apr 2008 12:44

gashish wrote:Yes, they do and have determined that the intake has to be increased to meet the demand. Hence GoI is adding new IITs,converting existing other premier instiutes,and expanding the current ones! If you dont agree, hard luck mate.


Wow so your logic is just because GoI does it is right is it? I bow to thee; no doubt you bow to Arjun Singh.

Just because I own my house -- if I decide setting fire to it is likely to be interor decoration I am not likely to be right.

But I dont expect some one like you to understand logic -- I suspect I am dealing with a mind not capable of grasping complications beyond a certain point.

As you would have seen if you cared to READ -- I already know that GoI is screwing IIT -- and have said that -- but how does that also mean that IIT brand is enhanced is something only you can do with the level of MIT != IIT because they have different fundings.

WHich reminds me --- you have run with the tail between your legs when asked to justify what is MITs mission and how does it compare to IITs.


Market already knows the value of UCB and employs UCB grads. Sirjee get out of the mental ghetto u r in..to know what market knows. Calling urself market doesnt make u one.


I am the market buddy; you are in a California ghetto and do not realize there is a wide world outside California -- which may be fine for your frog in the pond thinking but is not the same yard stick I would like IITs to go by.

I'm done with you on this thread.


Of course since you have nothing to answer to the inconvenient questions I ask and your third rate nareebazi is stopped by logic you will run. I expected that -- good. Now please dont spread more canards.

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Postby Stan_Savljevic » 18 Apr 2008 15:04

Rye wrote:With respect, whether it is absurd or not, everyone needs to be given equal opportunity -- no one gets to decide other than entrance examinations. This kind of social profiling is just unhelpful nonsense.

The uncomfortable fact is that an elite population exists. And it needs to be identified, nurtured and allowed the necessary freedom to create, extend and generate new theories from empirical data. What is not true however is that they are majorly dispersed over a small select set of the population. Elites are the statistically insignificant ones -- rare events. Most of the laws break down when it comes to characterizing them except for "order laws" like large deviation laws, unlike the "more precise" law of large numbers/CLT types.

I completely disagree with the India vs China hook theory. After seeing enough Chinese students, who are supposed to be their statistical insignificant population or such similar stuff, I am absolutely confident that neither group is better. In fact, the amount of creation that Injuns do for the amount of time spent is infinitely better off than the Chinese population. I will leave it at that.

The reason for China's better GDP vs India has more to do with the fact that they abandon moral scruples and run after money in a crazy capitalist way. From most conversations with Chinese people, I get the feeling that morals are man-made, so they can be violated at will. I also get the feeling that what we see as dharmic and what they see as dharmic (even among the practicing Buddhist Chinese students) is so-so different that the twain could never meet. What this dharmic abandonment would do to China is to make them run after solace or peace, like the way many Americans feel after some point in their "work hard-party hard" careers. Once they endow a possibility for moral vacuum, it is ripe to be EJ-ized.

There are cataclysms waiting to happen from our northern neighbor, just be patient. Dhamaka will set in soon, and we can then say "Told you so." Like the Chinese do, we can laugh at them then.

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Postby negi » 18 Apr 2008 18:41

Quality/Brand.. :-? dilution.

Back in 2001 when I had joined Engg (not an IIT) colleges across the country increased their intake , I guess say 30-40 per class to 60 ? (including IIT's and NIT's).

During the first couple of weeks in college seniors and old timers ('Hamare Zamane mein aisa hota tha' types ) used to whine about dilution in quality/brand or whatever.

I see the same being reiterated here. I dont understand this,for a nation which is growing economically,technologically and demographically it is obvious that total number of Engg/Med/Comerce/Humanities seats be increased and I dont see why IIT's be an exception to the rule.

Having said that I agree that while increasing the intake Infrastructure,Faculty and other logistics be taken care of , which imo IIT's at least wont face.

Unlike the learned people on forum with research/academic background I do not have a deep insight into the education system, however I do realise the simple fact that whether IIT's pursue research and nurture Phd's/research fellowships or continue with the current system they will have to increase their intake (expanding the current campus facilities as well as coming up with new campuses in other states).

As far as Dilution thingy goes the quality will go down only as far as the JEE structure will allow it to go (unless another retard like Arjun makes it 70% reserved onlee).

I mean back in 80's how many used to appear for the JEE for say 'x' amount of seats ? and compare that with sheer number of students today who appear for the JEE for say 5500 seats.

I dont see why the top 1000 wont be as smart and capable as the folks back in 90's or 80's .

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Postby gashish » 19 Apr 2008 07:04

WHich reminds me --- you have run with the tail between your legs when asked to justify what is MITs mission and how does it compare to IITs.



Lets not make it a mudslinging match.

First of all, comparing MIT's and IIT's missions is besides the central point of discussion: intake of IITs. It was not I who first talked about MIT.

If you could, please tell us how the intake of IITs should be determined? And what would be the right intake given current needs of the country? I really want to know.

In any case, I posted IITs mission. And then cited reasons why we need to increase the intake. Now its is you who want to model it on MIT, right? Shouldn't you then give us the reasons why you think MIT is good model and better than other premier state universities I cited like UCB?

MIT and IIT differ at fundamental level, the source of funding. MIT is a private university and can do whatever it wants (e.g exorbitant tuition fees). Nobody questions. IITs can't (what would be IIT fees without GoI subisidies?). Thats why I said we shouldn't compare their missions.(actually MIT is land grant university and most of research is funded by GOTUS, so even MIT functioning is not totally free of controls). Of course, this doesn't mean that IITs shouldnt strive to excel in imparting technical education and conducting research.

Funding plays important role and there has to be justification to how taxpayers money is spent. If you dont agree with this , then we disagree at the fundamental level. And lets agree to disagree.

Now if the desire is to create a very elite institute(like MIT) without interference from GoI, then shouldnt like-minded people/institutions/corporations come together, fund and build a brand new private university? On the lines of ISB.

I am the market buddy; you are in a California ghetto and do not realize there is a wide world outside California -- which may be fine for your frog in the pond thinking but is not the same yard stick I would like IITs to go by.

Though, this doesnt pertain to the discussion, I lived close to MIT for 4 years and worked with a company(Analog Devices, founded by MIT guy) which closely works with MIT. I have interacted with MIT students and professors. So I do know the world outside California. Anyways, lets keep personal potshots at bay.

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Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2008 08:07

the university endowments in US are managed by professional managers
and also in somewhat risky areas like hedge funds for massive returns.
the guy who made $3.7 billion last yr managing some hedge funds (wall streets top earner) has univ endowments as his clients too.

so they are rich and keep getting richer as famous and super rich alums
funnel considerable amts of cash back into swank new infra (some if it
over the top like gourmet cafeterias, world class++ gyms, dorms that are
like shared luxury suites...) and so far people seem willing to spend their
own money or take loans to avail of these univs.

a considerable gap in $$ has apparently opened between the Ivy+X and
rest of state owned univs like uc, michigan, wisconsin, utx, nc which are all
good but dont have the $$ for luxury jacuzzi in dorm? there were articles
last yr of intense poaching going on and difficulty to retain their good staff
with faculty recruiters from Haavad being told things like "go out and recruit the best in world, no matter what the cost , do whatever it takes"

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Postby vina » 19 Apr 2008 09:43

Somebody please wake up and tell me that this is a huge joke.

Marks of 1 , 4 and 3 in Math, Physics and Chem in JEE as cutoff ? .. And then you want to give a 10% grace for "reserved " candidates ?.. WTF is going on ?

Printed from
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
On quota, IIT cut-offs may go negative
19 Apr 2008, 0031 hrs IST,Manoj Mitta,TNN

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
NEW DELHI: If subject-wise cut-off marks for general candidates in the just-held IIT-JEE are, as in last year's examination, likely to be in single digits, how will the system have scope to relax the qualifying marks, as announced, by 10% for OBCs and 40% for SCs and STs?

Chairman of IIT-Jee 2008, Prof N M Bhandari, admitted to TOI that the subject-wise cut-offs for reserved candidates may turn out to be less than one mark which was the level to which the bar was lowered last year in one of the subjects for general candidates.

Speaking from IIT Roorkee, Bhandari hastened to clarify that since subject-wise cut-off marks for even general candidates have become so low, a further reduction for reserved candidates would be of 'little significance'.

The ridiculous cut-offs are thanks to a rather liberal ranking procedure adopted last year by the IIT system, stung as it was by an RTI application seeking statistical basis for the cut-off marks of the 2006 examination.

In a blow to what is regarded as one of the toughest competitive examinations in the world, neither of the statistical formulae given by IIT Kharagpur to the Central Information Commission tallied with the stated cut-off marks for 2006 — 37 for mathematics, 48 for physics and 55 for chemistry.

The more transparent procedure adopted in 2007 reduced the corresponding cut-off marks to 1, 4 and 3, making a mockery of their purpose of ensuring that selected candidates displayed a certain minimum level of knowledge in every subject.

In the new procedure, the cut-off marks are pegged to the best marks obtained by the bottom 20% of the candidates in each subject.

As a result, 91% of the candidates cleared the cut-off marks, for instance, of chemistry in 2007 as compared to no more than 6% the previous year.


Since subject-wise cut-off marks have been rendered meaningless in the new procedure, the selection of the candidates, whether general or reserved, now depends entirely on their aggregate marks.

The number of candidates making it to the merit list will be 1.15 times the total number of seats available in each of the categories.

According to Bhandari, it is at this stage that the reserved candidates will get a more substantial benefit as the aggregate cut-off (the aggregate of the last general candidate to have been selected) will be relaxed by 10% for OBCs and 40% for SCs and STs.

Bhandari is at pains to explain that, though subject-wise cut-off marks are likely to in single digits for everybody, "the emphasis we place on the aggregate marks for ranking candidates ensures that we still get the best in the country".

All the same, if they persist with the present policy of selecting candidates essentially on aggregate marks, IITs will sooner rather than later have to do away with subject-wise cut-off marks given the farce they have been reduced to.

(manoj.mitta@timesgroup.com)

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Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2008 10:06

it only means the marks below which the candidate is not considered for
admission I think. the marks profile of those eventually getting admission
doesnt change dramatically unless the exam pattern changes. its impossible
that anyone can get admission with 1,4,3 in PCM..a monkey throwing darts
randomly at the wall will score better.

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Postby SriKumar » 19 Apr 2008 18:06

Chairman of IIT-Jee 2008, Prof N M Bhandari, admitted to TOI that the subject-wise cut-offs for reserved candidates may turn out to be less than one mark which was the level to which the bar was lowered last year in one of the subjects for general candidates.
Per above, the bar was lowered last year. This implies that they did not have enough pool of candidates with the previous bar and therefore it had to be lowered. Otherwise there is no other reason to lower the bar, one would think. So, it is possible that they are actually picking candidates close to the previous low bar, and that still did not give them the necessary number. Having said that, I cannot imagine anyone scoring in single digits and having a chance of getting through. Something does not add up.

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Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2008 20:31

the bar was lowered last yr because the court acting on a RTI application
found that the PCM old cutoff provided by IIT of around 50 each for PCM
did _not_ tally with the official formula stated to be used and some deserving
candidates right at the edge had got left out and someone who didnt pass
the official formula got in.
so they decided to play it safe and made some changes.

there aint no way anyone with 5,5,5 in PCM will get into iit no matter what
the reserved category. there are superb reserved category students who
use the quota to get desired branches than they would from general list. one
such guy is my relative.

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Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2008 01:55

Target Top 10 in 20 years

Dr. Gangan Prathap is no Vice Chancellor of Cochin Science and Technology Uty.

Hurray for IITMians.

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Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2008 02:07

An interesting op-ed in Current Science

Indian Researcher: Reluctant toolmaker


I think Information Technology will and is changing this as it is social leveler.

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Postby achit » 25 Apr 2008 02:20

SriKumar wrote:
Chairman of IIT-Jee 2008, Prof N M Bhandari, admitted to TOI that the subject-wise cut-offs for reserved candidates may turn out to be less than one mark which was the level to which the bar was lowered last year in one of the subjects for general candidates.
Per above, the bar was lowered last year. This implies that they did not have enough pool of candidates with the previous bar and therefore it had to be lowered. Otherwise there is no other reason to lower the bar, one would think. So, it is possible that they are actually picking candidates close to the previous low bar, and that still did not give them the necessary number. Having said that, I cannot imagine anyone scoring in single digits and having a chance of getting through. Something does not add up.


We had (VRCE, Nagpur 1994) one guy with 1 mark from MPCET. I won't be surprised if IITs are doing it. If not, our politicians will make sure that they do.

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Postby Rahul M » 26 Apr 2008 07:50

I know for a fact that at Venaras Hindu Univ, BSc and MSc (physics) entrance the selected list for reserved category tops at 0 or even negative points. (question paper is MCQ type).

many sc/st students submit blank pages and ace the exams. However, the faculties mark these fellows at the start of the course and do all they can to ensure that such garbage do not pass out.

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Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2008 12:11

thats what my cousin a prof in medical college guwahati told me too. they
have candidates with 20/300 but make sure to grade them fairly and strictly
which means they never pass out and go away after some years.
and they are not 'allowed' to take up fields like surgery which is clearly very
dangerous to put such people in. even toppers it seems goof up badly
though its papered over - a batchmate of mine (a girl) nearly killed some
poor woman during delivery c-sec. fortunately the real docs in attendance
managed to save her life after heavy blood loss.

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Postby niran » 26 Apr 2008 12:54

Rahul M wrote:I know for a fact that at Venaras Hindu Univ, BSc and MSc (physics) entrance the selected list for reserved category tops at 0 or even negative points. (question paper is MCQ type).

many sc/st students submit blank pages and ace the exams. However, the faculties mark these fellows at the start of the course and do all they can to ensure that such garbage do not pass out.


First,it is "Benaras Hindu University"
Yes, the entrance is MCQ type and -ve marks for an incorrect answer.
Yes all quota people have "Q" marked in against their names in register.
Unfortunately for them Medical course involve 70% viva and clinical tests.
where your true knowledge is tested.
Each supplementary will cause 35 marks to be deducted from grand total
during PG selection.
three supplementary and you are out of clinical subjects as PG.
there are lots of "Qouta walla" who stays for a decade or so and then
.....do what ever these people do.

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Postby gogna » 29 Apr 2008 18:35

India has 35 per cent of global illiterates
Mineguruji, 29 April 2008, Tuesday

Despite several steps by the government, much remains to be done in the the educational sector. According to a latest report by the GMR, India has been ranked 105th and has 35 per cent of the total illiterates in the world.

MAKING A disclosure in the Parliament on April 28 (Monday), the government said that despite the fact that India had a huge number of illiterates and it has been ranked 105th in the global monitoring report, the country’s education development index had risen from 0.789 to 0.797.

Replying to a question in the Rajya Sabha, minister of state for education, MAA Faatmi, cited the Global Monitoring Report (GMR) 2008, and told that the main achievements included high level of net enrollment in the primary education and significantly improved adult literacy rate and gender parity.

In order to achieve the millennium development goals, pertaining to universal primary education, the government has launched the Sarv Shikhsha Abhiyan (SSA), introduced cooked mid-day meal scheme.

The Minister said that the SSA aims at achieving the objectives of universalising elementary education among children in the age group of 6-14 years in a time bound manner. As a result of this programme, a large number of children have been brought into the fold of elementary education and the drop out rate has come down from 320 lakhs in 2001-02 to 76 lakhs in 2007-08.

He also informed that the mid-day meal scheme has been introduced for all children up to class IV in the government and the government aided schools, centres under the alternative and innovative education and education guarantee scheme and its extension to the upper primary level in the 3479 educationally backward blocks.

The government has also levied a two per cent education cess in order to bridge the gap between the available plan resources and the established requirements to finance SSA and the mid-day meal, the two main programmes for the universalisation of elementary education.

http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=133204

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Postby Amber G. » 09 May 2008 19:42

x posted from nukad - slightly OT but if some one wants to look at best US math students (7th 8th graders) to get some perspective on how they compare with Indian students etc ... this might be interesting:

If you want to watch some of the best bright math students in the "countdown round" you can watch it at 3PM local time (5 PM EDT, 9PM UTC) today at

http://mathcounts.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=1290&srcid=195

I think it will be archived (so if you miss watching it live, you can watch it later)

The Mathcounts competition is for 7th and 8th graders, and top 10 individuals (Out of around 200 who are competing right now in written exams etc) will compete in the countdown round. Play along with them..
(root for the Ohio team or their coaches <smile>) but enjoy.

Added later: Actual math problems Q/A starts around 35 minutes after the start , if one likes to Fast Forward ...

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Postby Mahendra » 10 May 2008 18:29

Minorities need access to professional education: Sonia

Om Self-goal aya namaha
There are more than enough private minority educational insittutions and THEY do reserve a large number of seats to candidates of their community. There is no need for the government to step in and play disgusting vote bank politics.
Everyone needs access to professional education diyar Soniaji, by copying Laloos "railways only for Bihar" policy you are scoring a self goal just like the "mauth ka saudagar free-kick self goal" Congratulations

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Postby Singha » 10 May 2008 19:19

anything goes....elections are coming and with high food price inflation the
UPA has nothing much to crow about at street level.

another kick will be if they are forced to reduce diesel subsidy to bail out
the oil PSUs. that will immediately raise the price of everything.

OPEC chief was saying oil could reach $200 :eek: and mostly due to
devaluation of dollar.

I dont see any option but to let the Rupee appreciate as much as possible
against anything out there and move ALL our forex reserves to euros and
yen.

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Postby Vipul » 14 May 2008 19:22


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Postby Vasu » 15 May 2008 01:16

Singha wrote:anything goes....elections are coming and with high food price inflation the UPA has nothing much to crow about at street level.



My only hope is that the sleeping 'majority', whatever it might be in these netas's eyes, will wake up and vote with a vengeance. I think a lot of feathers have been ruffled already with the OBC quota, and with the speeding inflation and spiraling law and order all across the country, I think UPA can start moving out of Central delhi bunglows.

Also, the NDA's charge that the UPA is a pusillanimous coalition when it comes to India's security has been getting a lot of soundbytes in the media.

Also, the IIM Alumni Association has filed a petition in the SC against the OBC quota. Nothing will come of it, but the media has covered it decently enough.

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Postby derkonig » 15 May 2008 14:47

The Cal HC has just ruled that OBCs can't have quota in PG, so there still is hope.

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Postby Sanjay M » 19 May 2008 05:29


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Postby Sanjay M » 20 May 2008 08:29


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Postby Mahendra » 25 May 2008 21:00

NDTV debate on the quota verdict

Interesting debate with stellar performance by Prof Inderesan. He makes some very valid points.

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Postby Singha » 29 May 2008 10:22

Ahmedabad: The Gujarat Government on Wednesday received a formal approval from the Central Government to set up Indian Institute of Technology in the state.

The state government has decided to make the IIT functional from the coming academic year, an official release quoting government spokesperson and Health minister Jaynarayan Vyas said.

The Central Human Resource Development Ministry had recently announced setting up of new IITs in which they had given nod to set up one in Gujarat.

IIT will provide a five-year B Tech degree programme with 40 seats each in three branches of engineering namely -- Mechanical, Chemical and Electrical, Vyas said.

At present, the IIT will be located in the Vishwakarma Government Engineering College campus at Chandkheda in Gandhinagar district where the necessary infrastructural support is already in place, he added.

Last year IIT-Mumbai had opened its extension center here which provides courses on developing skills in engineering education, he said.

The state government has already allotted land for the IIT-Gujarat in the Gandhinagar-Ahmedabad Knowledge Corridor, but till the consturction is completed, the IIT will function


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