Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

member_26011 · Post by **member_26011** » 01 Apr 2015 08:34

Approach procedures/ATIS/WX/Fuel happens before transition (FL180). If they were at FL380, then there's 10-15 minutes of descent, and another 20 mins or so through touch down. Assuming 30 minutes to cruise, we have say 65 minutes accounted for. If this were a 90 minute flight in all, they had about 25 minutes before top of descent, and so I'd say there were a few minutes to go over the descent checklist. If the guy had to poop for five minutes, plus some chai for another five before settling back, that would leave about 15 minutes. Add switching centers, getting vectored around in busy airspace, and so on, it is not unreasonable to say, get ready for this we'll do it when I return.

Here, preparing for landing seems a little bizarre term to use, especially if the reporting is accurate. Landing is far away at this point. Descent, transition, approach, landing clearance. Prepare for "landing" is like the pilot coming on PA saying "We've been cleared to land, put your seats up" and then go into hold for twenty minutes. There's no landing clearance there at all and that phrase has a specific meaning. A clearance onto the approach, e.g. Kilo Uniform, descend and maintain 4000, turn right heading 3-3-0 to join the localizer, cleared ILS approach RWY YY...that's when the landing checklist comes up, right, as one guy is getting it onto the localizer, the other is reading out and pushing the buttons. Comms, nav, speed, brakes, lights, gear, attitude, power, crew, flaps...

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Apr 2015 09:30

Reporting is not accurate. Everything is simplified to DDM level. This is the generic prep. converted into "prepare for landing". Note that the audio isnt public, at least I havent heard it. The captain had no time to go pee, he could well have been rushed to not have seen /read anything from weather to the flight plan. Who is to say otherwise now?

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 01 Apr 2015 09:59

Lufthansa Says It Knew Of Co-Pilot Andreas Lubitz's Depression

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... depression

Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot who appears to have deliberately crashed his aircraft into the French Alps last week, had informed Lufthansa in 2009 of a "serious depressive episode," the German airline said in a statement.

Lufthansa says a note about a "previous depressive episode" was found in email Lubitz apparently sent to the Lufthansa flight school when he resumed his training after a months-long interruption.

Previously they had denied any knowledge about Lubitz's depression problems. Totally irresponsible.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2015 10:04

The flight was 130 -135 minutes long and not 90 minutes and had 30 minutes of cruising ahead before start of Descent and before coming under the Approach control of Dusseldorf.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2015 10:09

Shreeman wrote:
It is easy to conjecture.

However, the whole, x set y to z causing $^!4 to happen, is early/baseless determination and a media circus/trial/lynching. Pilots are essential part of this system. I wouldnt encourage maligning them.

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03 ... by-pilots/

19 December 1997 – 104 fatalities
Silk Air Flight 185, a Boeing 737 en route from Jakarta, Indonesia to Singapore, crashed in Indonesia following a rapid descent from cruising altitude. Indonesian authorities were not able to determine the cause of the accident. It has been suggested by among others the U.S. NTSB that the captain may have committed suicide by switching off both flight recorders and intentionally putting the Boeing 737 in a dive, possibly when the first officer had left the flight deck. During 1997 the captain experienced multiple work-related difficulties, particularly during the last 6 months. Also at the time of the accident the captain was experiencing significant financial difficulties, which was disputed by the Indonesian investigators. (ASN Accident Description)
....
....

31 October 1999 – 217 fatalities
Egypt Air Flight 990, a Boeing 767, entered a rapid descent some 30 minutes after departure from New York-JFK Airport. This happened moments after the captain had left the flight deck. During the investigation it was suggested that the accident was caused by a deliberate act by the relief first officer. However, there was no conclusive evidence. The NTSB concluded that the accident was a “result of the relief first officer’s flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer’s actions was not determined.” The suggestions of a deliberate act were heavily disputed by Egyptian authorities. (ASN Accident Description)
.....
.....

29 November 2013 – 33 fatalities
LAM Flight 470, an ERJ-190, entered a rapid descent while en route between Maputo and Luanda and crashed in Namibia. Preliminary investigation results indicate that the accident was intentional. The captain made control inputs that directed the plane to the ground, shortly after the first officer had left the flight deck. (ASN Accident Description)

It is not like they can not be investigated .

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Apr 2015 10:22

The egypt air is NOT cut and clean --read more about it. It is a study in arabic culture too. The silk air is speculated. The LAM is not complete yet either.

Yes, they can be investigated. Have they been investigated properly? Not very often. This latest one is acquiring a distinct MH17/370 hue.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 01 Apr 2015 12:00

A whiff of hope for Air India

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 016_1.html

All its problems are far from over but national carrier Air India is in better shape than it has been in a while. The airline that has been making heavy losses for several years is likely to post its lowest loss this year. Several international routes, which have traditionally failed to cover even variable cost, are now covering it.

How did this happen? Of course, lower oil prices of late have helped Air India, as they have all the other airlines. But in the case of Air India, a few other things have happened, too.

One, by rationalising the fleet, the airline has managed to get rid of some fuel guzzlers. Virtually all the B 777-200 LRs, a drain on the finances, have been phased out. The 747s operations, another oil guzzler, are now marginal. On both 777 LRs and 747, the airline actually made a loss on the incremental cost of operation. In other words, it was cheaper to keep these on the ground than to fly on most routes.

B-787s have come in and are a more efficient plane, though they gave the carrier a fair amount of trouble since it was one of the early customers to fly the plane. Today, almost 90 per cent of the losses are from its international operations.

Routes have also been rationalised. Many loss-making ones have simply been done away with. Operations to various foreign stations such as Africa and other markets where Air India could never hope to make money have stopped. In the lean season, the airline is reducing frequencies instead of maintaining the same schedule as in the past. In December, for instance, 85 per cent of the routes were meeting their variable costs, up from 26 per cent two years ago. For the whole year, 68 per cent of the routes will meet variable costs.

Overall losses will however remain, since Rs 1,800 crore a year is spent on depreciation and another Rs 2,500-2,700 crore goes by way of interest. In 2014-15, the government injected Rs 5,700 crore. In total, so far, Rs 18,500 crore of the Rs 30,000 crore promised have been disbursed.

On the domestic side, the airline pared the size of its executive class (down from 20 to 12) and conversely increased its seats in economy. The airline has also leased some new aircraft in the all-economy configuration. This helped reduce domestic losses.

Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), Rohit Nandan, says the biggest change has been stability. "Not a single manday has been lost due to industrial action," he says; this in an airline known to face industrial action twice a year. The handling of the strike (which resulted in the removal of 13-14 officials) and not taking these back sent a clear message that the management meant business.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2015 13:42

Are we elevating pilots to some superhuman beings who are immune from problems which ordinary mortal humans suffer?? They may have work related stress, family related stress, hidden illness or what not. They survive in this highly skilled job by virtue of extensive training before being put in command of larger planes. Naturally, the tolerance level would be much higher but then once in a while some might slip through. It is the job of management to detect signs of stress and danger. And in this case I think management has failed with terrible consequences.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Apr 2015 16:16

So the key common factor is: Captain pushes seat back, opens door, then opens and closes pakistan door.
Maybe flushes toilet because last used by Le Passager de Haute Premiere Classe who has not read the notes that used to be posted in the EyeEyeTee pakistans:

Be modest. Don't show your Output. Pls pull the flush

That last bit completes the deadly throw of the dice. This puts CO+ SO2 + HCN from the Airboos Model 666 Atmospheric Pakistan-Reduction Unit (APRU) directly through the air vent above the co-pilot's nose.

Co-pilot keels over unconscious, pushes control column far over.
In last moments of consciousness, hits autopilot, not realizing that L'AutoPeelot is programmed with best L'Airboos software, and sets the new course at the depressed-forward-stick condition, not at level flight condition. Small miscommunication in translating between Francaise and Deutch. Same module titled: capgopak.c-- Used in most planes of all manufacturers worldwide. Even copied into new PRC People's Transport AirBox (PTA878-083).

Everyone hearing CVR blames co-pilot. Solution: Install a pakistan-no-flush Warning Sireen on the pakistan door.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Apr 2015 18:37

UlanBatori wrote:
Why Pilot asked FO to prepare for landing when the plane had hardly reached the cruising altitude and was not even halfway mark to its destination??
Hmm!! Hadn't thought of that one. Planning a loooong vijit to the pakistan, hain? Planning to spend rest of flight on Holy Throne-e-pakistan (sorry, I keep forgetting that the pilot is not with us any more).
Is it normal practice to just say, I do the takeoff, get it to altitude, u do everything else? Why does co-pilot need to be briefed on landing? Don't both look at the same airport info, weather etc b4 taking off?

Saar, it's not a briefing in that sense. It's just a procedure to touch base and review/coordinate all required actions/emergencies jointly so that the other does not react differently than agreed. This avoids surprises and the guys in the cockpit are agreed as to the course of action in any emergency/situation that may arise.

Thus the landing or even takeoff is a planned process and every phase of it is monitored as per the plan.

It's routinely done in all large cockpits.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2015 20:16

UlanBatori wrote:So the key common factor is: Captain pushes seat back, opens door, then opens and closes pakistan door.
Maybe flushes toilet because last used by Le Passager de Haute Premiere Classe who has not read the notes that used to be posted in the EyeEyeTee pakistans:
Be modest. Don't show your Output. Pls pull the flush
That last bit completes the deadly throw of the dice. This puts CO+ SO2 + HCN from the Airboos Model 666 Atmospheric Pakistan-Reduction Unit (APRU) directly through the air vent above the co-pilot's nose.

Co-pilot keels over unconscious, pushes control column far over.
In last moments of consciousness, hits autopilot, not realizing that L'AutoPeelot is programmed with best L'Airboos software, and sets the new course at the depressed-forward-stick condition, not at level flight condition. Small miscommunication in translating between Francaise and Deutch. Same module titled: capgopak.c-- Used in most planes of all manufacturers worldwide. Even copied into new PRC People's Transport AirBox (PTA878-083).

Everyone hearing CVR blames co-pilot. Solution: Install a pakistan-no-flush Warning Sireen on the pakistan door.

Seems Germanwings suffered from "CO+SO2+HCN+NH3+...." toxic fumes in the cockpit in the year of the Lord 2012. Plane was moments before the crash and pilots were barely conscious as reported by Dailymail.uk in 2012.

Airbus with 150 passengers moments away from disaster after cockpit filled with toxic gases

The two pilots were barely conscious as the airplane descended into Cologne, Germany, at 400 kmph
Budget airline Germanwings accused of playing down the terrifying incident to dodge investigation
By the time experts received new evidence on the near-fatal crash, the black box and cockpit recorder information were no longer available

By Daily Mail Reporter

Published: 16:40 GMT, 29 September 2012 | Updated: 16:40 GMT, 29 September 2012

The 26-year-old co-pilot told the captain, 35 years old, to land the airplane as his arms and legs went numb and he reached for an oxygen mask.

The captain's own hands and feet then started to tingle as he took control of the airbus.
The two pilots were crippled by nausea and were barely conscious as they landed flight 753 from Vienna, Austria

He began to get tunnel vision and became badly dizzy as the Germanwings plane hurtled towards the runway at more than 400 kmph.

According to a medical examination afterwards, the captain had a blood oxygen level of just 70 per cent and his co-pilot's was less than 80 per cent. Healthy people have a blood saturation level of around 100 per cent.

The petrified captain said he feared for his life.

According to Der Spiegel magazine in Germany, the pair successfully landed the airplane and were taken away in an ambulance, watched by passengers.

Germanwings submitted a report to the German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Investigation. However, the incident did not appear in the BFU’s monthly bulletin and no further action was taken.

Experts only received new information on the near-fatal crash a year later by which time the black box and cockpit recorder information were no longer available.

Germanwings submitted a report about the flight from Vienna, pictured, to the German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Investigation. However, no further action was taken

A spokesman for Germanwings told Die Welt that there had not been a problem.

But the newspaper said it had seen a medical report from Lufthansa referring to an examination of the co-pilot six months after the incident. It said he was fully capable of service - after six months of being incapable.

Experts only received fresh information on the near-fatal crash at Cologne, pictured, a year later. By then, the black box and cockpit recorder information were no longer available

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Apr 2015 18:49

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32159602 -- has been found. In what shape?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Apr 2015 19:06

Now THAT is really scary

Is the cockpit hermetically sealed from the rest of the plane? I assume so, for fear that Al Qaeda would send 400% Peshawar Hashish smoke under the door otherwise.

Or else the cabin air must come first via the cockpit and blow into the cabin, but given the volume needed, that would make the cockpit rather breezy.

So these ****s depend on one little air vent to keep the pilots supplied with Oxygen? What if the cockpit has MINOR depressurization - how much pressure difference will the door sustain, I wonder. Maybe the copilot felt himself blacking out, started descent, then blacked out? I am beginning to understand why the plane's trajectory started to level out around 7000 feet, when the target was set to 100 feet. This was why I kept asking about ASL versus AGL. Look back at the plot that someone posted from that radar site, of altitude vs. time - there is a leveling off well before the end.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 02 Apr 2015 19:13

Once Air India reaches zero loss it should become a listed company and the govt should start selling shares. This would make it more market oriented. Full privatization is an executive decision that should be taken after due consideration. Personally I don't see why govt should run an airlines specially one that guzzles tax payer money.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Apr 2015 19:59

Supratik wrote:Once Air India reaches zero loss it should become a listed company and the govt should start selling shares. This would make it more market oriented. Full privatization is an executive decision that should be taken after due consideration. Personally I don't see why govt should run an airlines specially one that guzzles tax payer money.

Those Aunties and Uncles are never going to allow privatisation.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Apr 2015 20:06

The regulatory reaction to this crash has been characterised by a brain-freeze and has made it even easier to hijack or crash an aircraft.

Before it required a pilot or co-pilot. I'm sure they'd have done background checks, breathalyzer test, medical tests (obviously there have been loopholes as this crash showed). Are we sure that a cabin attendant is as thoroughly checked and as trustworthy ? Now, a cabin attendant is the weakest link in the chain.

A better solution would be rotating three pilots each flight, but at these cost-cutting times, it would be too expensive.

NB: Edited to make it less blatant

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2015 20:12

the alacrity of the 3 PMs in going to the site, presenting a common storyline and browbeating everyone to stick to the party line indicates there is some technical or crime angle to this they are not keen on airing because it might reflect poorly on airbus (their biggest high tech employer) and their airlines sector (another big employer)

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2015 20:19

Looks like Air quality could occasionally be a serious concern and the industry has been keeping such incidents behind the veil. Now I know why the smell of cabin air seemed funny sometimes. Praise be to the Mongol from Bator.

This opens up another line of investigation where airline could be responsible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmen ... rol_System

The bleed air comes from the engines but is "bled" from the engine upstream of the combustor. Air cannot flow backwards through the engine except during a compressor stall (essentially a jet engine backfire), thus the bleed air should be free of combustion contaminants from the normal running of the aircraft's own engines.

However, on occasions carbon seals can leak oil (containing potentially hazardous chemicals) into the bleed air, in what is known in the industry as a "fume event".[5] This is generally dealt with quickly since failed oil seals will reduce the engine life.

Oil contamination from this and other sources within the engine bay has led to health concerns from some advocacy groups and has triggered research by several academic institutions and regulatory agencies. However, no credible research has yielded evidence for the existence of a medical condition caused by fume events.[6][7][8]

http://www.askthepilot.com/questionansw ... r-quality/

And pilots are breathing the same air as everybody else. An aircraft fuselage does not contain separate compartments with different pressure values. The entire vessel is pressurized equally from front to back. This includes the cabin, cockpit, and lower-deck cargo holds.

Toxic cockpit fumes that bring danger to the skies

Antony Barnett Sunday 26 February 2006 01.52 GMT

Passenger jets have to operate complex systems to ensure that the air within the cabin remains breathable for passengers and crew, even at high altitudes. The filtered air supply is known as the 'bleed air'. Evidence uncovered by The Observer reveals that in some aircraft with poor engine design, leaky seals or a poor maintenance record, this air can become contaminated with fumes from the jet engines. Research suggests the effect of exposure to TCP can be mild, from a strange taste in the mouth to nausea. But it can lead to symptoms that can incapacitate pilots. Some scientists believe the long-lasting effects for those repeatedly exposed can lead to chronic health problems. Some in the industry fear a potential health scandal and have called it aerotoxic syndrome. Research by a consultant clinical neuropyschologist at University College London estimate that 197,000 passengers may have been exposed to such fumes in 2004.

http://www.esam.aero/main/docs/ecam08/N ... 0paper.pdf

Concerns have been raised by unions representing pilots and cabin crew about the possible effects on aircrew health
of oil/hydraulic fluid smoke/fume contamination incidents in pressurised aircraft. Specific concerns have been raised with respect to organophosphate compounds (OPs) in the cabin air environment and the effects on health of long term low-level exposure. However, the epidemiological evidence is hampered by inconsistency in reporting and the numbers are small

Toxic fumes in airliner cabins ignored by authorities By: David Learmount
16:00 6 May 2008

Contaminated air events in the UK Civil Aviation Authority's database of mandatory occurrence reports from mid-1985 to July 2006 number nearly 1,800. A few were reports of smoke that may have had an electrical source, but most involved a mist or vapour containing heated engine oil constituents introduced via the engine or auxiliary power unit compressors that deliver outside air to the aircraft's air conditioning packs.

That is 85 reported events a year in one country - and then there are the unreported incidents. Many pilots say fume events are not worth reporting unless they are severe and they estimate the unreported incidents probably exceed the reported events - although the CAA says it has no evidence to support that.

The US Federal Aviation Administration, on the other hand, concluded that under-reporting of fume events is endemic after studying air-contamination events. At a conference on smoke in the cockpit in 2006, the FAA's director of flight standards Jim Ballough said: "FAA data analysis indicates numerous [smoke/fumes] events not being reported.

Former BAe 146 training captain John Hoyte says: "I flew the 146 for about 16 years. The worst time I remember for experiencing contaminated air was on the ground from the APU before the first flight of the day, when the engine was started from cold. Frequently we would have the cabin full of blue smoke as a result of the air system overcooking this meant the whole crew was affected by these visible fumes, but maybe only for 10-15min. No detecting device has ever been used to verify exactly what the blue smoke represents. Clearly the strength is there and I don't think many people would dispute the undesirability of this frequent occurrence." Hoyte, who submitted this description as part of a statement filed to the CAA and a number of other official bodies, has stopped flying because of ill health.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Apr 2015 20:19

I read this book where someone wired up a bizjet so that the cabin air supply switched from mildly warmed air from the low-pressure compressor, to air from the exit of the high-pressure compressor (~800K)

Finis 4 everyone.

Putting a small aerosol can with a timer somewhere in the ducting going to the cockpit is a lot easier, except that it might be found in the crash investigation.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2015 20:37

It still does not answer why Pilot could not enter the cabin using emergency procedure when he had about 8 minutes and FA presumably unconscious. It also does not explain the alarm cut in the middle when emergency procedure was used second time. At least from the CVR recording two alarms for emergency door open procedure of CDLS is heard.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Apr 2015 20:42

Have the aircraft seats decreased in width ? I recently flew on 777 on Etihad in Economy and there really isn't any space to park elbows - really bad while having meals. Meal tray width is almost same as the seatback tray width.

This is the same 3-4-3 config that I've flown before on Cathay - but never faced this width issue. What gives ?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Apr 2015 20:59

It also does not explain the alarm cut in the middle when emergency procedure was used second time. At least from the CVR recording two alarms for emergency door open procedure of CDLS is heard.

What does this mean pls? So we can relay it to the UBCN CTicians... ? What is "emergency door open procedure" other than an axe wielded by the heftiest crew member? Or since they don't allow axes, a Drinks Cart with a bottle of Heineken broken at the neck to provide sharp edge? Can they open the cockpit door from ground control? Can't imagine that a flt attendant can do this, because the pakis would immediately go back to the Original 9-11 Training: i.e., procedure used to hijack IA flight, Dec. 1999.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Apr 2015 21:00

srin wrote:Have the aircraft seats decreased in width ?

Perhaps u have grown?

(Like me, I mean)

The seats looked a lot more luxurious when I was 4.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Apr 2015 21:16

srin wrote:Have the aircraft seats decreased in width ? I recently flew on 777 on Etihad in Economy and there really isn't any space to park elbows - really bad while having meals. Meal tray width is almost same as the seatback tray width.

This is the same 3-4-3 config that I've flown before on Cathay - but never faced this width issue. What gives ?

Has everybody switched over to 3-4-3 in 777's now? I remember many airlines used to have only 3-3-3 config in their 777's. IMO 9 is the most amount of people they can cram into one row in a 777 without everybody getting squeezed from both sides. 3-4-3 is fine for a 747 or A380.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Apr 2015 21:33

nachiket wrote:
srin wrote:Have the aircraft seats decreased in width ? I recently flew on 777 on Etihad in Economy and there really isn't any space to park elbows - really bad while having meals. Meal tray width is almost same as the seatback tray width.

This is the same 3-4-3 config that I've flown before on Cathay - but never faced this width issue. What gives ?
Has everybody switched over to 3-4-3 in 777's now? I remember many airlines used to have only 3-3-3 config in their 777's. IMO 9 is the most amount of people they can cram into one row in a 777 without everybody getting squeezed from both sides. 3-4-3 is fine for a 747 or A380.

This was a 3-4-3 config and all the wide-body jets I've flown (mostly A330 and B747) have had 3-4-3. And interestingly, this Etihad flight to SFO was painted in Jet Airways colors.

Checking on seatguru.com, yes - seat-width is 17.5 inches on Etihad 777, while Cathay seat width is 18.5 inches. Just one inch and it is very noticeable !

Btw, check the seat width on Lufthansa A380 - just 17 inches. Ironic, for such a big aircraft.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Apr 2015 21:34

UlanBatori wrote:
srin wrote:Have the aircraft seats decreased in width ?

Perhaps u have grown? (Like me, I mean)
The seats looked a lot more luxurious when I was 4.

Yep - that too !

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2015 22:05

UlanBatori wrote:
It also does not explain the alarm cut in the middle when emergency procedure was used second time. At least from the CVR recording two alarms for emergency door open procedure of CDLS is heard.
What does this mean pls? So we can relay it to the UBCN CTicians... ? What is "emergency door open procedure" other than an axe wielded by the heftiest crew member? Or since they don't allow axes, a Drinks Cart with a bottle of Heineken broken at the neck to provide sharp edge? Can they open the cockpit door from ground control? Can't imagine that a flt attendant can do this, because the pakis would immediately go back to the Original 9-11 Training: i.e., procedure used to hijack IA flight, Dec. 1999.

http://www.dw.de/how-does-a-cockpit-doo ... a-18343317

The pilots can operate the door with a lever on a control panel.

There are three settings: norm, lock and unlock.

There is also a keyboard panel in the cabin area with a green and red light, as well as a telephone for the crew to talk to the pilots.

The cockpit has an emergency buzzer and pressure sensor that responds in the event of a pressure loss in the cabin.

Protection against intruders

Usually, both pilots remain in the cockpit and the door is locked. It can't be opened manually from outside, because there is no handle. The control lever setting is "norm" - which means the three additional door bolts are not activated.

Any flight attendant who wants to access the cockpit must first ring the bell on the control panel.

The pilot then has to move the switch to "unlock" for the person to enter. As soon as the door is closed again, the setting reverts to "norm."

Anybody trying to enter the cockpit without using the telephone - either by knocking or hammering on the door - would raise the pilots' suspicions.

In such a case, they would switch to "lock" - effectively activating the additional three bolts. An intruder would need more than raw force to break open the door.

Access to the pilots in emergency situations

But there can be situations in which the door has to be opened by cabin personnel - for instance, if they have to administer first aid to a pilot. This could arise in the event of gas poisoning, rendering both pilots unconscious.
[The pilot can manually seal the cockpit]

The pilot can manually seal the cockpit

The cabin crew has an access code for such emergency situations.

Entering the code triggers an alarm in the cockpit and the word "open" appears in bright letters next to the door switch.

If the pilots don't react within 30 seconds, the door opens automatically, giving crew five seconds to get inside, and then administer first aid.

If the pilots suspect they are being hijacked and want to prevent anyone from getting inside the cockpit, they can still activate the "lock" position.

This would bolt the door irrevocably for five minutes, according to the 2002 Airbus video.

Aviation expert Tim van Beveren told DW this period has been extended to 20 minutes. The lockout scenario applies, for instance, if terrorists have forced cabin crew to give them the access code.

There is another scenario in which the door opens without the pilot's involvement: if a sensor in the cabin ceiling registers a loss of pressure in the cockpit.

But even then the same rule applies: if the door is switched to lock mode, it remains locked for twenty minutes.

Technical manual used during training describes CDLS
Check from page 34 onwards.
http://nicmosis.as.arizona.edu:8000/ECL ... DSC_25.pdf

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2015 22:52

Update

Browser history reveals Germanwings co-pilot searched on ways to commit suicide

German state prosecutors said on Thursday they believe the co-pilot who crashed a Germanwings plane in the French Alps last week had searched on a computer for ways to commit suicide shortly before the crash which killed 150 people.

In a statement, prosecutors in Duesseldorf said the computer, which they had found in his home, also showed searches on cockpit doors and safety precautions related to them.

They said the co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, had “looked for information on ways to commit suicide” in computer searches that took place between March 16 and 23, one day before the crash.

“On at least one day, the person had for several minutes undertaken searches related to cockpit doors and their safety precautions,” it added.

The second black box from the Germanwings plane that crashed in the French Alps last week has been found after a nine-day search, prosecutors said today.

Authorities are hoping to unearth more clues about the disaster from the black box after the first voice recorder suggested that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz deliberately flew the plane into a mountain.

Germanwings second black box found

The second black box records technical flight data that could provide vital insights into the final moments of Flight 4U9525 before it crashed last Tuesday, killing all 150 people on board.

The first black box, found the same day as the crash, recorded conversations between Lubitz and the pilot and showed that the 27-year-old German was alone at the time of the crash.

He apparently took advantage of the captain’s brief absence to lock him out and set the plane on a deadly descent into the Alps.

The plane smashed into the mountains at a speed of 700 kilometres an hour, instantly killing all 150 people on board
— half of them German and more than 50 from Spain. According to prosecutors, the voice recorder suggested that the passengers were unaware of what was going to happen to them until the very last seconds, when screams were heard.

Rescue workers have since been sifting through the wreckage for days trying to identify body parts and victims via their DNA.

The search for evidence has been hampered by the extremely difficult mountain terrain as well as the force of
the crash
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/#sthash.s32AQVNK.dpuf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2015 23:03

Are these Cross Wind Takeoff and Landing or something else ?

https://youtu.be/X_Ymw4NGuz0

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2015 23:13

The plane on an earlier occassion
D-AIPX

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Apr 2015 00:10

But even then the same rule applies: if the door is switched to lock mode, it remains locked for twenty minutes.

So in the tradeoff between being able to rescue incapacitated pilots, and being able to stop determined terrorists, they went with the fear.

This bijnej about checking what sorts of things ppl investigate in a given din...

Strong argument for clearing all cache and Browsing History every din b4 shutting down, then only the RAA and NRO knows. As in..

Why would a yak-herder from Ulan Bator spend lots of time on a forum where they kept discussing plane crashes, hain?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Apr 2015 00:19

AI

Pay us more or v will

But buried in the pakistan there is this little item:

ICPA represents the narrow-body Airbus A320 pilots in the airline. This is the second time in the last 10 days that ICPA has red-flagged safety concerns in Air India to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).
Earlier, it had asked DGCA to ground the airline's 26-year -old A-320 fleet citing safety concerns.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Apr 2015 01:10

Austin wrote:Are these Cross Wind Takeoff and Landing or something else ?

https://youtu.be/X_Ymw4NGuz0

crosswind stuff. you can find literally hundreds of such videos on the net. mostly uploaded by plane spotters and enthusiasts.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Apr 2015 02:21

You know, the Oiropeans have an interesting situation on their hands. If they say that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane with 150 people, that is NOT "suicide" it is mass-murder terrorism. If the fellow wanted to just kill himself, all he had to do was sign out a private plane, and dive into the earth or into a cliff face. Why kill so many innocents?
So this is absolutely TERRORISM. Whether he intended to terrify all airplane passengers or not, he has most certainly done that.
OTOH, the 'depression' argument does not quite explain how someone would lock the door, dive on autopilot, and sit calmly watching the mountain goats getting bigger in the windshield. Not even the mandatory AOA! or equivalent. Does that sound like someone who was just worried about losing his piloting job? Surely he could have found a job doing something else, even at the same airline? Flown on weekends?

IMHO, these point to something else. The Toxic Gas scenario is possible, as far-fetched as it is. Can't imagine a software error with a competent pilot still at the controls being responsible, and both engines and all control surfaces were working and there was no depressurization or structural failure. No total electrical failure. No evidence of Aliens abducting the plane.

I still don't understand about multiple "door alarms". Did the door open at any point? If a "lockout" stays for 20 minutes, that was it, no chance, hain? What is this "multiple alarms, pls?"

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 03 Apr 2015 02:40

Somehow I dont see UBCN version being true here. If there was a major flaw in such a widely used aircraft, even a -1000dB SPL whisper about a "design flaw" on that model will make every one from Africa to Mongolia to Latin America sit up and take notice and frantically demand explanations.

If there is such a flaw and they hide it, and as a result people die, its going to blowback with a vengeance. I doubt the "design flaw" CT.

Having been depressed and worked with some suicidally depressed folks, I am inclined to believe the "official version".

This guy was homicidally suicidal. If he was an Abdul in middle east, he would have gladly driven a 21,000kg truck bomb into a crowded market without anyone having the need to brainwash and motivate him.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Apr 2015 03:00

do suicidally depressed guys tend to indulge in mass murder as well ?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 03 Apr 2015 03:59

In reality it happens only very rarely.

However here are the facts that are known: He was depressed, he had vision problems and a bunch of other things. He may have been taking medications for depression and was recently given an "unfit to fly" certificate.

Sometimes anti-depressants makes people angry (one of the side effects) and irrational. My theory is that he took his anger on being unfit to fly on the airline and the passengers and killed himself in the process.

There certainly seems like a lot of anger that was simmering within him, the "unfit to fly" note was found in his room torn to pieces. Surely a sign of latent rage.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Apr 2015 09:28

Title: Oeuropean Komedy
Kreator : Germanywings and apmployees

Kredits roll.

Scene 1.
Actor 1: Doktor, I kan not see!
Acktor-Doktor, ing. Yah? Nicht Kan see, ya? Oh, my helmut spreigle! schlecht! faul!
Actor 1: Oh?
Acktor-Doktor, ing. Heir, this sick note betaking.

Scene 2.
Actor 1: Aaarrrrgggggh. Be angrying.
Much tearing up of note.
Female-tobe-wife-aktoress: Bye?
Actor 1:Oh?
Browser-be-wepsite-of google opens.
Actor 1: Ah, flight time! Be-going, I must.

Is that how it happened? We know the facts then? Based on 40 some such alleged incidents over past 30 years? Based on lack of audio from CVR?

Have the leaked the FDR data yet?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Apr 2015 11:58

LokeshC wrote:Somehow I dont see UBCN version being true here. If there was a major flaw in such a widely used aircraft, even a -1000dB SPL whisper about a "design flaw" on that model will make every one from Africa to Mongolia to Latin America sit up and take notice and frantically demand explanations.

If there is such a flaw and they hide it, and as a result people die, its going to blowback with a vengeance. I doubt the "design flaw" CT.

Having been depressed and worked with some suicidally depressed folks, I am inclined to believe the "official version".

This guy was homicidally suicidal. If he was an Abdul in middle east, he would have gladly driven a 21,000kg truck bomb into a crowded market without anyone having the need to brainwash and motivate him.

Design flaws are very much possible and most of the time it is revealed in extreme situations like crashes. Investigations pin point such flaws and then remedies are suggested leading to redesigning the component in question or change in procedure i.e. until next flaw is discovered. Human error is one of the most cited causes of accidents and crashes.

And to say that everyone will situp and take notice is all very well and what happens when design flaw is pointed out that is what everyone does, esp. manufacturers but not before crash and regulator grounding the planes in question until the discovered flaws are rectified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Ai ... Flight_981

The crash was caused when an improperly secured cargo door at the rear of the plane broke off, causing an explosive decompression which severed cables necessary to control the aircraft. Because of a known design flaw left uncorrected before and after the production of DC-10s, the cargo hatches did not latch reliably, and manual procedures were relied upon to ensure they were locked correctly. Problems with the hatches had occurred previously, most notably in an identical incident that happened on American Airlines Flight 96 in 1972

http://natgeotv.com/me/air-crash-invest ... ax/about/1

Along the way, the documentary reveals the many breakthroughs and design innovations that were implemented only after something went horribly wrong..

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Apr 2015 12:33

Lets be clear, there are no reliable mechanisms for documenting, reporting, correcting design flaws, or really ANY kind of flaw. It takes an outbreak, some illness, or decades of crashes before there are recalls of food, equipment, or cars. Remember Toyota? You think the japanese are worse than the rest of the lot?

Checked medical horror stories ever?

Why do you think planes are any different? There is redundancies built in. But there are also numerous sausage making aspects that are common knowledge and still stay around.