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Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Austin
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2017 16:08

Air India sold 5 Boeings at ‘significantly’ low cost: CAG

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... 442346.ece

ldev
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ldev » 13 Mar 2017 07:21

Choked toilets on US bound Air India flight

NEW DELHI: The wait for a long flight to land could never have been more desperate than for passengers on board Air India's Delhi-Chicago nonstop on Saturday.
A Boeing 777 was released for the 16-hour journey with four toilets closed and the remaining eight others also packing up by the time it was a good two hours from the destination.
The condition of passengers on the aircraft - which had 324 adults and seven infants as passengers and 16 crew members - was understandably bad as the plane had taken off at 2am from Delhi.
A hearty breakfast, full meal and alcoholic and nonalcoholic beverages were served during the course of the flight.
At first, there were long queues at the eight operational toilets. Soon, there were no queues as all lavatories became unusable. Hectic parleys went on between the cockpit and AI operations whether the flight should be diverted to Toronto, but they decided against it.


"The Boeing 777-300 (VTALJ) flew into Delhi from Hyderabad on Friday night... Since the aircraft was booked to take a full load of passengers to Chicago from Delhi and no alternate aircraft could be arranged at such short notice, it was felt that the eight servicable toilets will be enough," said a senior AI official.
"In Delhi we tried to clear the four toilets using nitrogen flushing. But the toilet pipes were choked with passengers flushing all kinds of stuff like plastic bottles and sanitary napkins. Opening up the system would have taken time," said an official.


What a disaster. Have not flown AI for a very long time. Stories like this just ensure that will not change.

Kashi
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 13 Mar 2017 09:48

ldev wrote:What a disaster. Have not flown AI for a very long time. Stories like this just ensure that will not change.


Also this part

"In Delhi we tried to clear the four toilets using nitrogen flushing. But the toilet pipes were choked with passengers flushing all kinds of stuff like plastic bottles and sanitary napkins. Opening up the system would have taken time," said an official.


Why do some air passengers lack common sense?

Singha
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2017 16:16

its the fault of passengers rather than airline or boeing. despite clear instructions in all toilets not to do such stuff people keep on doing it.

Neshant
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2017 03:42

Boeing relocating its production facilities to China

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... et-orders/

Mort Walker
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Mar 2017 06:20

Singha wrote:its the fault of passengers rather than airline or boeing. despite clear instructions in all toilets not to do such stuff people keep on doing it.


What they need is just a big hole in the bottom of the plane to dump the tanks over the ocean! :rotfl: :rotfl:

Taking airlines like KLM and Luftwaffe, the flight attendants clean the toilets mid-flight between Europe to Asia or North/South America. They put on an apron and gloves and do the job. If non functional, then aircraft doesn't leave. It is indeed AI's fault for departing without working toilets.

Mort Walker
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Mar 2017 06:21

Neshant wrote:Boeing relocating its production facilities to China

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... et-orders/


That's an old story. Don't know if it happened or not.

Neshant
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2017 09:05

Mort Walker wrote:
Neshant wrote:Boeing relocating its production facilities to China

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... et-orders/


That's an old story. Don't know if it happened or not.



India buys sh&tloads of planes.
But very poor negotiating skills on the part of the govt ensures very little local benefit comes of it.

Boeing to deliver first 737 from Chinese 737 completion center in 2018
March 13, 2017

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/news ... e-737.html

Neshant
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2017 09:08

I mean can you identify any benefit to the nation with Spice Jet outright buying 11 billion dollars of Boeing 737s?
Its a deal with a total of 205 jets costing $22 billion with nothing of significance has been negotiated in terms of offset.

Both Boeing & Airbus have set up large facilities in China, hardly anything in India.

This at a time when "expanding Indian carriers will need 1,850 new planes valued at $265 billion in 20 years, according to a Boeing forecast.
Single-aisle planes will make up the bulk of the new deliveries."

The 737s and other single aisle planes will be shipped right over to India after being built in China with ZERO benefit to India.
We are subsidizing our own demise.

------------

Boeing snags $11 billion order from India's SpiceJet

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/13/news/co ... index.html

JayS
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 20 Mar 2017 13:06

Right now its too late. I once suggested few ways to Civil Aviation Ministry to get a huge boost for Indian Aerospace industry and a lot of high quality jobs through these large ticket buyings by Indian airliners. I even got a reply from Jayant Sinha that Govt is mulling ways to capitalize on this. But clearly govt was caught napping has lost the bus for current buying cycle. (They could still re-negotiate the A320 and this B737 deals and get something substantial, but Govt seems to be clueless).

Boeing does not have anything in <100 seat category and they clearly are lagging big time behind Airbus in 200-220 category where A320 rules. We might be able to get a JV with Boeing for these two categories if we promise them all orders from India going to this JV. Let a private Indian company like Tata do the mud moving while Boeing pitch in to support in technology intensive areas for example design and flight testing and setting up assembly lines. Lets not get too much into ToT, but try to get most of the manufacturing and full eco system in India first through such JV. Boeing might get interested if we show them candies and de-risk the JV through our money mostly. Similarly we could lure GE or PW for engine manufacturing.

Its rather stupid to go for screwdrivergiri for Defense projects where we should be going solo and not use the civil sector at all, which has far bigger potential of kick-starting Aerospace industry and provide far more jobs for much larger time period.

Neshant
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Neshant » 21 Mar 2017 06:31

This being a private deal, as long as the buyer (Spice Jet) is happy with the price, the Indian GAUment should not get involved.
Whatever the govt extracts from Boeing in terms of setting up screw driver turning factories in India is offset by a higher price for the planes - which may hurt the buyer (airline).
Letting the buyer (airline) get the maximum benefit from the deal without interference is the way "ideal" capitalism should be.

ToT is largely bullsh&t. All that is ever transferred is obsolete stuff at obscene prices.

JayS
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 21 Mar 2017 16:18

Neshant wrote:This being a private deal, as long as the buyer (Spice Jet) is happy with the price, the Indian GAUment should not get involved.
Whatever the govt extracts from Boeing in terms of setting up screw driver turning factories in India is offset by a higher price for the planes - which may hurt the buyer (airline).
Letting the buyer (airline) get the maximum benefit from the deal without interference is the way "ideal" capitalism should be.

ToT is largely bullsh&t. All that is ever transferred is obsolete stuff at obscene prices.


Why should we care whatever the F*%$ "ideal" Capitalism means..? And there is no such thing as "Ideal" Capitalism, least of all in Aerospace/defense.

And GOI can always compensate the price escalation by giving waivers, tax breaks in various forms. The reduction in costs in manufacturing and MRO for next 20odd years of operational costs can easily make the deal look nicer. Its far better to pay little more cost in Civil sector to develop Aerospace industry on much broader level than to play with our National Security in long term for much lesser potential gain (e.g. screwdriviergiri of F-16).

tsarkar
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 21 Mar 2017 18:23

From Aviation Week

Airbus To Set Up Technician Training Base In New Delhi

Site near international airport will train 200 aircraft engineers annually.

James Pozzi

Airbus will establish its first facility in Asia for the training of maintenance engineers and aircraft pilots near New Delhi’s international airport.

A ground breaking ceremony took place at the site on Friday (Mar. 17) for the 7000m2 site, which is expected to begin operate in late-2018.

Once built, it will house two Airbus A320 flight simulators, increasing to four and potentially to six simulators over an unspecified period.

Approximately 200 maintenance engineers will be trained annually to start with, along with 800 pilots. Airbus said the center will cater for Airbus operators in India, which operates more than 250 Airbus jets and has more than 570 on order.

According to data from the OEM, India is the fastest growing domestic aviation market globally with a forecast annual growth rate of 9.3% over the next 20 years, more than double the 4.6% worldwide average.

In order to meet demand, Airbus estimates at least 1,600 new passenger and freighter aircraft are needed in India by 2035, with the in-service fleet requiring more than 24,000 maintenance technicians and pilots to service them.

“India’s rapidly growing passenger aircraft fleet must be matched by adequate availability of skilled pilots and maintenance engineers,” said Pusapati Ashok Gajapathi Raju, union minister of civil aviation.

“Airbus’ pilot and maintenance engineering training center is the type of facility which will help augment the talent pool of such personnel and thus be a force multiplier for the Indian aviation sector.”


Though in my opinion its too little too late, and GoI fails miserably to leverage this in military matters.

Same for the shipping sector with private shipbuilders with huge investments in dire straits.

Gagan
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 03:44

GoI and the Civil Aviation Ministry need to consolidate all orders with foreign aircraft manufacturers and bargain for make in india civilian aircrafts, make in india civil aircraft engines.

These will quickly set up the ancillaries and the ecosystem, that our one LCA and HAL Helicopter division have struggled over so many years to set up.
Let the furriner factories help set it up too.


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