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Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2017 16:42

Manish_P wrote:
Austin wrote:Superjet Order order books today stand at ~ 150 aircraft with western operators operating it too.
Listed are operator flying today and the numbers.
http://www.airfleets.net/listing/ssj-1.htm


Non-russian western operators seem to be only 3. Brussels Airlines of Belgium, CityJet of Ireland (mostly charter) and Interjet of Mexico


Civilian market is very competitive where getting even 1 customer is an achievement when they have established player like Embraer Bombardier and smaller ones like Comac, Mitsubishi, NG Aircraft.

Embraer took 25 years to achieve where it is today and Super Jet is a new entrant to this competitive world , It will take them 15-20 years of sustained effort to take a decent share of market in 100-130 seat category.

Even 1 year delay in launching the aircraft means loosing customers , This is clock work competitive business.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2017 16:52

Interjet Sukhoi Superjet planes ULTIMATE COCKPIT MOVIE


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Nov 2017 16:58

Austin wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Non-russian western operators seem to be only 3. Brussels Airlines of Belgium, CityJet of Ireland (mostly charter) and Interjet of Mexico


Civilian market is very competitive where getting even 1 customer is an achievement when they have established player like Embraer Bombardier and smaller ones like Comac, Mitsubishi, NG Aircraft.

Embraer took 25 years to achieve where it is today and Super Jet is a new entrant to this competitive world , It will take them 15-20 years of sustained effort to take a decent share of market in 100-130 seat category.

Even 1 year delay in launching the aircraft means loosing customers , This is clock work competitive business.


This could be our entry into large aircraft. We have to make this jump at some point. I’m not all that into Russian gear but participation in the SSJ (or MC-21) in exchange for, say, inducting a number into AI would be a good entry point. Then later we can leverage for a Boeing or Airbus plant.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 23 Nov 2017 17:37

What kind of participation? SSJ is in service and MC-21 currently is undergoing certification campaign; which means that 90% of development is over. Perhaps we could negotiate an assembly plant...but there were news that Sukohi is mulling an engineering centre in India along with a possible SSJ assy plant. But with Russian products/projects, every thing takes time & a lot of efforts I guess since ToT will be the major pain point.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Nov 2017 17:53

Zynda wrote:What kind of participation? SSJ is in service and MC-21 currently is undergoing certification campaign; which means that 90% of development is over. Perhaps we could negotiate an assembly plant...but there were news that Sukohi is mulling an engineering centre in India along with a possible SSJ assy plant. But with Russian products/projects, every thing takes time & a lot of efforts I guess since ToT will be the major pain point.


Yes assembly or even a finishing plant. Being involved in the development process when we don’t have even the beginnings of a large aircraft infrastructure is not all that important IMHO. I know that Russians are interested in supplying the SSJ (and MC-21) to our airlines. We must be able to leverage our market to start building the infrastructure and a finishing plant would be perfect to begin with.

Airbus or Boeing would be better of course but I wouldn’t mind Russian at this early stage of development. For commercial aircraft, I don’t expect much from ToT now. Maybe a decade down the line when we have some infrastructure. We need to get into this game as our carrier market ramps up. We must not have the world’s second or third largest market just buying phoren airliners.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2017 18:35

chola wrote:This could be our entry into large aircraft. We have to make this jump at some point. I’m not all that into Russian gear but participation in the SSJ (or MC-21) in exchange for, say, inducting a number into AI would be a good entry point. Then later we can leverage for a Boeing or Airbus plant.


We need to start building 50 seater for Civilian and Def from established design and build infra and have the expertise to build a modern turboprop be it Bombardier or Embaraer or ATR. Post that we can look into jumping into a 100 seater of Narrow body. If we start seriously today with sustained effort 25-30 years from now we might reach a point where we can think about a small presense. All talks of 50 to 100 seater from Deve Gowda to Modi era has gone no where

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Nov 2017 18:50

Austin wrote:
chola wrote:This could be our entry into large aircraft. We have to make this jump at some point. I’m not all that into Russian gear but participation in the SSJ (or MC-21) in exchange for, say, inducting a number into AI would be a good entry point. Then later we can leverage for a Boeing or Airbus plant.


We need to start building 50 seater for Civilian and Def from established design and build infra and have the expertise to build a modern turboprop be it Bombardier or Embaraer or ATR. Post that we can look into jumping into a 100 seater of Narrow body. If we start seriously today with sustained effort 25-30 years from now we might reach a point where we can think about a small presense. All talks of 50 to 100 seater from Deve Gowda to Modi era has gone no where


we missed a golden opportunity when we did not pick up the dirt cheap and readily available Dornier 328 plant and machinery complete with a genuine and by god TOT, after the dornier company ran into serious financial difficulties.

Image

Over the decades, we could have seriously leveraged and built up from there.

When bombardier desperately needed about a billion dollars worth of investment recently, it was the hans who went in with the money whereas our guys simply sat back with their dicks in their hands. A billion dollars is mere chump change for us.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2017 19:03

Do 328 would have been a good start most certainly , Even Irkut offered HAL to join MS-21 in 2010 but HAL rejected saying they are not interested in developing civilian aircraft

Hindustan Aeronautics not interested in cooperation with Irkut


India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) CFO, D Shivamurti, stated the company has no interest in moving into in civil aviation projects and rejected a proposal by Irkut to jointly develop the MS-21 narrowbody (RIA Novosti, 10-Feb-2011). Earlier this week, Irkut President Oleg Demchenko stated the companies were holding talks on the joint development of the aircraft, which is due to enter service in 2016. Mr Shivamurti stated HAL's first priority was defence transport aircraft and that the company did not currently produce any passenger aircraft


https://centreforaviation.com/news/hind ... rkut-87154

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 23 Nov 2017 19:42

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:
We need to start building 50 seater for Civilian and Def from established design and build infra and have the expertise to build a modern turboprop be it Bombardier or Embaraer or ATR. Post that we can look into jumping into a 100 seater of Narrow body. If we start seriously today with sustained effort 25-30 years from now we might reach a point where we can think about a small presense. All talks of 50 to 100 seater from Deve Gowda to Modi era has gone no where


we missed a golden opportunity when we did not pick up the dirt cheap and readily available Dornier 328 plant and machinery complete with a genuine and by god TOT, after the dornier company ran into serious financial difficulties.

Image

Over the decades, we could have seriously leveraged and built up from there.

When bombardier desperately needed about a billion dollars worth of investment recently, it was the hans who went in with the money whereas our guys simply sat back with their dicks in their hands. A billion dollars is mere chump change for us.


There might still be an opportunity, but I doubt if our approach has changed one bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Dornier_328JET
While first flight was anticipated in 2019, Turkey abandoned the program in October 2017, facing increasing costs. Believing in the sub 40-seat market, Sierra Nevada Corporation and 328 Support Services GmbH are searching for other means to revive the aircraft, hoping to follow through by the end of 2017 or early 2018.[9]


Instead of knowingly throwing billions of dollars to crony capitalists like Mallaya the govt via banks or even directly could arrange soft financing to people like Kalyani for such strategic projects. Or nudge bigger players like Reliance, Tata or Mahindra to use their own funding towards that.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Nov 2017 20:59

Bart S wrote:
chetak wrote:
we missed a golden opportunity when we did not pick up the dirt cheap and readily available Dornier 328 plant and machinery complete with a genuine and by god TOT, after the dornier company ran into serious financial difficulties.

Image

Over the decades, we could have seriously leveraged and built up from there.

When bombardier desperately needed about a billion dollars worth of investment recently, it was the hans who went in with the money whereas our guys simply sat back with their dicks in their hands. A billion dollars is mere chump change for us.


There might still be an opportunity, but I doubt if our approach has changed one bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Dornier_328JET
While first flight was anticipated in 2019, Turkey abandoned the program in October 2017, facing increasing costs. Believing in the sub 40-seat market, Sierra Nevada Corporation and 328 Support Services GmbH are searching for other means to revive the aircraft, hoping to follow through by the end of 2017 or early 2018.[9]


Instead of knowingly throwing billions of dollars to crony capitalists like Mallaya the govt via banks or even directly could arrange soft financing to people like Kalyani for such strategic projects. Or nudge bigger players like Reliance, Tata or Mahindra to use their own funding towards that.


please don't quote selectively, saar. Its all on the very same wiki page

Manufacturer Fairchild Dornier
First flight 20 January 1998
numbers built 110.

no one cares what the turks did. They didn't/couldn't make a go of it

lockheed martin used this platform to develop the Lockheed Martin X-55 Advanced Composite Cargo Aircraft (ACCA)

a Dornier 328J with its mid/aft fuselage and empennage replaced with advanced composite materials. The ACCA is a Lockheed Martin demonstrator to advance composite usage on next-generation tactical air mobility transports for the US Air Force Research Laboratory.


This deal was first offered to HAL even before fairchild came into the picture.

there was ample development potential for us to have exploited, learned from and moved on to larger programs using lessons learned, skilled manpower developed and engineers clued up. At least we would have had some sort of a handle on similar projects instead of reinventing the wheel all over again like NAL has with the saras program.

where do guys like kalyani, tata, reliance and mahindra have shortage of funds?? what they have shortage of is gumption and the ability to take market risks. They are all looking for very high ROI from the defence market in India without wanting to take even the smallest risk. All of them, bar none, are sitting with senior ex DRDO and ex military guys in positions of power, the very same guys who produced zilch when they were in service. Its the same old GIGO maya, but maybe not so much for Kalyani or even his bharath forge.

And "soft loans" to these guys is so very different from what was given to mallaya?? Really??

I know of only one company who transplanted an american assembly line along with its recently retired american chief designer, set up the plant in some wilderness and went into production making some aerospace products and they made a go of it from day one. They overcame the GIGO maya. I don't know if they are still around as I don't have dealings with them for the longest time now.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Nov 2017 17:08

soft support is given for strategic projects all the time. culinary agency even has a overground investment arm called In-q-tel that has provided funding to the likes of data mining maven Palantir among others.

every govt has to look after its strategic players , whether public or private is just a matter of legality

if you let 'fairness' and 'free market' rule you get India. if you look after your own you get the american and chinese models.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Nov 2017 17:29

Singha wrote:soft support is given for strategic projects all the time. culinary agency even has a overground investment arm called In-q-tel that has provided funding to the likes of data mining maven Palantir among others.

every govt has to look after its strategic players , whether public or private is just a matter of legality

if you let 'fairness' and 'free market' rule you get India. if you look after your own you get the american and chinese models.


saar, I know some of the asking prices.

The numbers would make vijay mallaya blush and also curse himself for being in the wrong business.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 25 Nov 2017 15:54

Austin wrote:Do 328 would have been a good start most certainly , Even Irkut offered HAL to join MS-21 in 2010 but HAL rejected saying they are not interested in developing civilian aircraft

Hindustan Aeronautics not interested in cooperation with Irkut


India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) CFO, D Shivamurti, stated the company has no interest in moving into in civil aviation projects and rejected a proposal by Irkut to jointly develop the MS-21 narrowbody (RIA Novosti, 10-Feb-2011). Earlier this week, Irkut President Oleg Demchenko stated the companies were holding talks on the joint development of the aircraft, which is due to enter service in 2016. Mr Shivamurti stated HAL's first priority was defence transport aircraft and that the company did not currently produce any passenger aircraft


https://centreforaviation.com/news/hind ... rkut-87154


I recalled reading something along this line and thought if not HAL then who?

We need a parallel private sector industrial base that is profit driven and can identify damn markets not a PSU that cannot see beyond gormint directive and funding. Absolutely no agility.

Otherwise, one of the greatest potential driver of bharati technology and economics will be benefiting firangi firms onlee. Hell, one of the greatest potential markets in ALL of aerospace.

We will be the third largest aviation market in next decade with hundreds upon hundreds of billions of dollars of aircraft to be bought . If we cannot recapture a portion of our own damn market then we’ll continue building everyone else’s MIC but our own.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Nov 2017 14:46

In 2020, it is planned to fly an airplane with an E-Fan X electric motor

Image


http://www.air-cosmos.com/l-e-fan-x-vol ... 020-103759

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 29 Nov 2017 16:58

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:Do 328 would have been a good start most certainly , Even Irkut offered HAL to join MS-21 in 2010 but HAL rejected saying they are not interested in developing civilian aircraft


https://centreforaviation.com/news/hind ... rkut-87154


I recalled reading something along this line and thought if not HAL then who?

We need a parallel private sector industrial base that is profit driven and can identify damn markets not a PSU that cannot see beyond gormint directive and funding. Absolutely no agility.

Otherwise, one of the greatest potential driver of bharati technology and economics will be benefiting firangi firms onlee. Hell, one of the greatest potential markets in ALL of aerospace.

We will be the third largest aviation market in next decade with hundreds upon hundreds of billions of dollars of aircraft to be bought . If we cannot recapture a portion of our own damn market then we’ll continue building everyone else’s MIC but our own.


Who has stopped any private company to start making civil jet liners..? Has GOI made any law preventing private company from investing in civil aviation market..? Market is out there. All private companies are free to invest, aren't they..?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 29 Nov 2017 17:19

Dassault is investing with Reliance for the Falcon line in India. Actually, apart from the large Lease orders of Airlines, buying of aircraft in India is very small. A comparison with Brazil where there are more than 800 helicopters with civil operators, India has ~265.

Similarly in the GA/BA segment, fixed wing aircraft is around 350 in India and is mostly made up of pre owned aircraft imported from abroad. The aviation industry in India is very small and nascent when compared to bigger markets like the Americas, China, Japan, Australia or Europe. Even South Africa has more than India.

Our laws are restrictive and the regulator does not have certification capabilities that are needed. I have seen a few discussions on setting up lines lose fizz as the sheer complexity of licensing/clearances and regulatory approvals hit home.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 29 Nov 2017 17:35

deejay wrote:Dassault is investing with Reliance for the Falcon line in India. Actually, apart from the large Lease orders of Airlines, buying of aircraft in India is very small. A comparison with Brazil where there are more than 800 helicopters with civil operators, India has ~265.

Similarly in the GA/BA segment, fixed wing aircraft is around 350 in India and is mostly made up of pre owned aircraft imported from abroad. The aviation industry in India is very small and nascent when compared to bigger markets like the Americas, China, Japan, Australia or Europe. Even South Africa has more than India.

Our laws are restrictive and the regulator does not have certification capabilities that are needed. I have seen a few discussions on setting up lines lose fizz as the sheer complexity of licensing/clearances and regulatory approvals hit home.


That Falcon work package through Rafale offset right..?

India is on paper having large market potential but there are various factors which don't make it attractive enough in real life as of now. On paper there is requirement of some ~2000 of aircrafts and ~300s of billions of dollars worth market, IIRC. But ground reality is not exactly so rosy. Let alone manufacturing, we do not even have a proper MRO establishment in sight, only slowly things are happening.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 29 Nov 2017 17:40

^ Yes. Also, Falcons have traditionally been the preferred mid size business jet owned and operated in India.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 30 Nov 2017 17:20

JayS wrote:
deejay wrote:Dassault is investing with Reliance for the Falcon line in India. Actually, apart from the large Lease orders of Airlines, buying of aircraft in India is very small. A comparison with Brazil where there are more than 800 helicopters with civil operators, India has ~265.

Similarly in the GA/BA segment, fixed wing aircraft is around 350 in India and is mostly made up of pre owned aircraft imported from abroad. The aviation industry in India is very small and nascent when compared to bigger markets like the Americas, China, Japan, Australia or Europe. Even South Africa has more than India.

Our laws are restrictive and the regulator does not have certification capabilities that are needed. I have seen a few discussions on setting up lines lose fizz as the sheer complexity of licensing/clearances and regulatory approvals hit home.


That Falcon work package through Rafale offset right..?

India is on paper having large market potential but there are various factors which don't make it attractive enough in real life as of now. On paper there is requirement of some ~2000 of aircrafts and ~300s of billions of dollars worth market, IIRC. But ground reality is not exactly so rosy. Let alone manufacturing, we do not even have a proper MRO establishment in sight, only slowly things are happening.


I’m sorry but a 300 billion potential (or a 10th of our GDP) is no small matter that can be given up on. Many of the NRI CEOs in charge of some of the West’s (and world’s) most iconic MNCs had completely re-structure their companies to meet potential markets.

What India needs is some restructuring to capture a piece of our own market. We can pull our airlines into a consortium that negotiates for the whole carrier industry. Then leverage the immense amount of money in that to bring in private sector players. Or we can set up an aircraft leasing company that buys and negotiates for India. We must try different things and not give up on it.

The air carrier trend is a given. It will happen. We will be the third largest flying nation by end of 2020’s. We will INEVITABLY be one of the two largest markets in the world, with a credible shot at ending up number ONE (as we pass Cheen in population.) Those hundreds upon hundreds of billions will be spent.

It behooves us to capture some of the massive demand and resources generated by that trend to power our own industry.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 30 Nov 2017 19:37

chola wrote:
JayS wrote:
That Falcon work package through Rafale offset right..?

India is on paper having large market potential but there are various factors which don't make it attractive enough in real life as of now. On paper there is requirement of some ~2000 of aircrafts and ~300s of billions of dollars worth market, IIRC. But ground reality is not exactly so rosy. Let alone manufacturing, we do not even have a proper MRO establishment in sight, only slowly things are happening.


I’m sorry but a 300 billion potential (or a 10th of our GDP) is no small matter that can be given up on. Many of the NRI CEOs in charge of some of the West’s (and world’s) most iconic MNCs had completely re-structure their companies to meet potential markets.

What India needs is some restructuring to capture a piece of our own market. We can pull our airlines into a consortium that negotiates for the whole carrier industry. Then leverage the immense amount of money in that to bring in private sector players. Or we can set up an aircraft leasing company that buys and negotiates for India. We must try different things and not give up on it.

The air carrier trend is a given. It will happen. We will be the third largest flying nation by end of 2020’s. We will INEVITABLY be one of the two largest markets in the world, with a credible shot at ending up number ONE (as we pass Cheen in population.) Those hundreds upon hundreds of billions will be spent.

It behooves us to capture some of the massive demand and resources generated by that trend to power our own industry.


who is We..? Who has stopped Indian Airlines from forming a consortium and extract better terms..? NOt for the nation but atleast for themselves..? It would be good only if they have part available from local vendors and MRO facilities right next to their home airports, no..? Are the Indian airlines that dumb that they cannot see the obvious..?

And who has stopped Reliance, Adani or Tata to start Airliner project..? They have all the money needed and as many argue, more suited than HAL. Who the hell exactly has stopped them from getting in the Airliner business..???

A nobody who started GA aircraft project managed to mobilize CMO and PMO and got DGCA to register his aircraft. I am sure bigwigs like Ambani can easily tackle any and every regulatory hurdles that currently might exist. At least their is no law saying no Indian company can start new Airliner project right..? If there is 300 B market why they are not trying...?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 30 Nov 2017 19:48

Jay, everything you say is correct and on point. But I just cannot believe we are not capitalizing on one of the largest market trends in aerospace. Something that will drive (or leave behind) aviation firms around the globe.

That said, it is just me bellowing in frustration. Just as India’s military procurements are among the greatest drivers in that market so will our civilian one in the near future. And both looks like they will benefit everyone else’s MIC but our own :oops:

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 30 Nov 2017 20:07

chola wrote:Jay, everything you say is correct and on point. But I just cannot believe we are not capitalizing on one of the largest market trends in aerospace. Something that will drive (or leave behind) aviation firms around the globe.

That said, it is just me bellowing in frustration. Just as India’s military procurements are among the greatest drivers in that market so will our civilian one in the near future. And both looks like they will benefit everyone else’s MIC but our own :oops:


Frankly, I do not believe in $300B market potential. As of now its vapour ware. It will only be a real potential if GOI can provide the infra and a good plan with it. China has given a real market, and everyone went there for party. If we can show real potential, not a paper figure, then we will have a much more happening scene here.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 01 Dec 2017 21:45

JayS wrote:
chola wrote:Jay, everything you say is correct and on point. But I just cannot believe we are not capitalizing on one of the largest market trends in aerospace. Something that will drive (or leave behind) aviation firms around the globe.

That said, it is just me bellowing in frustration. Just as India’s military procurements are among the greatest drivers in that market so will our civilian one in the near future. And both looks like they will benefit everyone else’s MIC but our own :oops:


Frankly, I do not believe in $300B market potential. As of now its vapour ware. It will only be a real potential if GOI can provide the infra and a good plan with it. China has given a real market, and everyone went there for party. If we can show real potential, not a paper figure, then we will have a much more happening scene here.



Not today. I understand the numbers. I’m realistic about it especially vis a vis China.

But growth in India’s flying market will happen. There is simply no way, even without a clear plan from the GOI, that our aviation market will not expand massively in the coming decades. It is natural market demand from a billion people in a growing economy. The size of the market will simply overwhelm any incompetence or neglect and grow no matter what.

The question is who gets to benefit from this and to what degree.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 04 Dec 2017 06:17

Delhi and Mumbai airports are getting crowded. Perhaps it would help to make it mandatory to fly A380's between major Indian cities. Airlines could share the onboard capacity. a single A380 can take as many passengers as 5 737's in. Number of flights could be cut from 70 to 15. The same could be done on routs likne. Bom-Blr, Del-Blr, Del-Hyd,

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ssundar » 07 Dec 2017 07:37

Rishirishi wrote:Delhi and Mumbai airports are getting crowded. Perhaps it would help to make it mandatory to fly A380's between major Indian cities. Airlines could share the onboard capacity. a single A380 can take as many passengers as 5 737's in. Number of flights could be cut from 70 to 15. The same could be done on routs likne. Bom-Blr, Del-Blr, Del-Hyd,


It does not make sense to mandate A380s or any other aircraft for that matter. That would wreak havoc on the economics of airlines. Most of them operate a lean & mean single-type fleet to keep operational, training and maintenance costs low.

India really needs to make a strategic transportation plan that keeps the increasing passenger demand on the ground through better expressways and HSR. That is a better solution for a country of our population density. There is only so much air traffic our limited geography can handle. We are more similar to Japan rather than the USA or China.

We could, of course, increase the number of airports within the country. This would include additional secondary airports in major hub cities, connected by high speed airport express metros. This is how cities like London, San Francisco, Los Angeles etc. handle the ever-increasing demand for airliner slots.


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 07 Dec 2017 11:10

In general air travel is not viable for distances upto 400 km - HSR and good expressways are better alternatives. Because of lack of these, significant airport capacity is devoted to short haul routes.
Also, a lot of passengers flying into Metros are `via' .e.g. a person who wants to fly from Pune or Goa (both among the top 10 airports by traffic) to Jaipur or Chandigarh or Srinagar (all in the top 12) has to first fly into Delhi. If Agra is developed as an International airport, it can attract International charters, which would bypass Delhi. Reducing via traffic will de-congest metro airports. Simultaneously an additional airport in Bombay, Delhi and
Bangalore (not just augmenting terminal capacity for the existing runways).

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 07 Dec 2017 11:47

Deans wrote:In general air travel is not viable for distances upto 400 km - HSR and good expressways are better alternatives. Because of lack of these, significant airport capacity is devoted to short haul routes.
Also, a lot of passengers flying into Metros are `via' .e.g. a person who wants to fly from Pune or Goa (both among the top 10 airports by traffic) to Jaipur or Chandigarh or Srinagar (all in the top 12) has to first fly into Delhi. If Agra is developed as an International airport, it can attract International charters, which would bypass Delhi. Reducing via traffic will de-congest metro airports. Simultaneously an additional airport in Bombay, Delhi and
Bangalore (not just augmenting terminal capacity for the existing runways).


Round 2 of RCS invited bids for distances upto 100 kms. This is designed for hills and helicopters though.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Dec 2017 18:01

NCR greater noida airport is happening. it will be first metro with 2 large airports.

blr is building both a new terminal and runway together. capacity is maxed today at 20mil.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Uttam » 10 Dec 2017 19:19

Singha wrote:NCR greater noida airport is happening. it will be first metro with 2 large airports.

blr is building both a new terminal and runway together. capacity is maxed today at 20mil.


When I compare Bangalore and Delhi T3 with other international airports in the West, I find Bangalore and Delhi terminals to be very underutilized. There always enough space to roam around, shop, eat, etc. Airports live Chicago and Atlanta are like New Delhi Railway station, very crowded. JFK is even worse. LaGuardia is like Mumbai metro station. Why are then India airports assumed to be maxing out?

My observation is totally unscientific and based on user experience.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 10 Dec 2017 19:27

I think part of it may have to do with number of take off and landings that can be handled per hour.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 10 Dec 2017 19:34

Singha wrote:NCR greater noida airport is happening. it will be first metro with 2 large airports.

blr is building both a new terminal and runway together. capacity is maxed today at 20mil.


Nope it will be Mumbai which will be first with 2 large airports. Sahar Airport will max out at 50 Million passengers (more than the rated capacity) and the Navi Mumbai airport has planned capacity of 60 Million travellers a year. The Noida airport is still in the planning stage, whereas the Navi Mumbai airport work has already started.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Dec 2017 22:31

Singha wrote:NCR greater noida airport is happening. it will be first metro with 2 large airports.

blr is building both a new terminal and runway together. capacity is maxed today at 20mil.


How many runways and how long? To be a major international airport there must be at least 8 runways and a separate large terminal area for cargo.
The road access must be there for lots of trucks and movement of people. A very high level of automation will be needed to take off and land 8 aircraft at the same time. Think about not today, but where will NCR be in 30-40 years in terms of commerce and movement of people.

I envision this should be an airport like an ATL, ORD, DFW, LHR, FRA combined with a Memphis (FedEx).

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Dec 2017 02:08

Uttam wrote:When I compare Bangalore and Delhi T3 with other international airports in the West, I find Bangalore and Delhi terminals to be very underutilized. There always enough space to roam around, shop, eat, etc. Airports live Chicago and Atlanta are like New Delhi Railway station, very crowded. JFK is even worse. LaGuardia is like Mumbai metro station. Why are then India airports assumed to be maxing out?

My observation is totally unscientific and based on user experience.

Lack of runways, taxiways and apron parking spots I guess. Even a smallish airport like SFO has four runways. Compare that to Mumbai or Delhi. And then compare the huge terminals in Delhi and Mumbai with what SFO has.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby schinnas » 11 Dec 2017 02:53

Who has stopped Indian Airlines from forming a consortium and extract better terms..? NOt for the nation but atleast for themselves..? It would be good only if they have part available from local vendors and MRO facilities right next to their home airports, no..? Are the Indian airlines that dumb that they cannot see the obvious..?

And who has stopped Reliance, Adani or Tata to start Airliner project..? They have all the money needed and as many argue, more suited than HAL. Who the hell exactly has stopped them from getting in the Airliner business..???

A nobody who started GA aircraft project managed to mobilize CMO and PMO and got DGCA to register his aircraft. I am sure bigwigs like Ambani can easily tackle any and every regulatory hurdles that currently might exist. At least their is no law saying no Indian company can start new Airliner project right..? If there is 300 B market why they are not trying...?


Same parallels can be made to electronics and mobile handset industry and similar rhetorical questions asked. Until MII was put in place and incentives to make (or even assemble) in India and disincentives for imports were established, no private player wanted to make in India. Now everyone from Oppo to Apple wants to make in India.

We are fooling ourselves if we think a whole new industry that is very tech heavy and controlled by few MNCs can be kick-started in India by our mostly non tech private players. Govt needs to have a strategic policy and a well calibrated system of incentives and disincentives to lick start aerospace manufacturing in India. Some movements are happening but more needed.

IMHO, for what it's worth.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ssundar » 11 Dec 2017 05:33

nachiket wrote:Lack of runways, taxiways and apron parking spots I guess. Even a smallish airport like SFO has four runways. Compare that to Mumbai or Delhi. And then compare the huge terminals in Delhi and Mumbai with what SFO has.


Jetway capacity is another factor. Most US airports board ALL their flights using jetways. Only the tiny commuters require passengers to walk or bus to the aircraft. In India, a lot of flights are boarded by bussing passengers to remote bays.

But then, this is not a unique Indian problem. Was in Istanbul recently. It was quite disconcerting to see most of the flights in that airport being boarded remotely. This is vying to be a major international hub to boot.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ssundar » 11 Dec 2017 05:39

Mort Walker wrote:I envision this should be an airport like an ATL, ORD, DFW, LHR, FRA combined with a Memphis (FedEx).


The airports mentioned here are all massive hubs, both domestically and internationally. India's airlines are almost entirely made for origin-to destination business models. This reflects both in the way our airports are designed and airlines plan their fleet. This will forever keep India's aviation punching below its true weight.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Dec 2017 06:10

ssundar wrote:
nachiket wrote:Lack of runways, taxiways and apron parking spots I guess. Even a smallish airport like SFO has four runways. Compare that to Mumbai or Delhi. And then compare the huge terminals in Delhi and Mumbai with what SFO has.


Jetway capacity is another factor. Most US airports board ALL their flights using jetways. Only the tiny commuters require passengers to walk or bus to the aircraft. In India, a lot of flights are boarded by bussing passengers to remote bays.

But then, this is not a unique Indian problem. Was in Istanbul recently. It was quite disconcerting to see most of the flights in that airport being boarded remotely. This is vying to be a major international hub to boot.


Airports like SFO have their runways too close to the apron and taxiways. A near disaster occurred at SFO last July with Air Canada 759 coming down on several loaded jets lining up for take off.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 13 Dec 2017 00:42

SFO's pair of runways are X-shaped . That means they can never use it at full throughput. 10L/28L and 10R/28R are also ~50% longer and handle all the widebody traffic. 28L and 28R are the two runways with landing approaches over the bay heading north-ish in to land. The Air Canada flight was approaching 28R. The infamous Asiana crash occured on 28L.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Dec 2017 01:16

Suraj wrote:SFO's pair of runways are X-shaped . That means they can never use it at full throughput. 10L/28L and 10R/28R are also ~50% longer and handle all the widebody traffic. 28L and 28R are the two runways with landing approaches over the bay heading north-ish in to land. The Air Canada flight was approaching 28R. The infamous Asiana crash occured on 28L.

Yes the four runways are # shaped and only 2 can handle widebodies. The other two are used for most of the domestic traffic. This is not ideal and bigger airports like LAX, DFW, Atlanta etc. have 4+ runways all parallel to each other. The extreme lack of space in India means that our biggest airports can't dream of more than 2 runways and nearly all have only 1. This (along with taxiways, apron space etc.) will always be a bottleneck regardless of how big and well-designed our terminals are. That was my point.

Even in SFO I've seen all four runways being used simultaneously. In Mumbai where there are two cross runways, they tried doing that and found the throughput was less than using only 1 somehow. Now they use only 1 at a time. Mumbai for all intents and purposes is left a 1 runway airport with no space to expand. Only the Navi Mumbai airport if done properly and on time can solve this mess.


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