Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Arima
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Arima » 29 Oct 2018 20:42

Looks like aircraft was brand new and completed only 800 hrs of flying (From Wiki). first 737 Max8 to crash till date. hope real reason is found quick.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2018 00:22

Its in 40m deep water and only bodies found so far
Diving will resume tomorrow to locate the main body of plane

No mayday call was made. Plane requested to turn back and was given goahead but continued on

Terrorism whether hijackers or explosive cannot be ruled out

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Oct 2018 11:37

judge, jury and executioner.

BIF in full play



A huge tragedy used to self flagellate - "plane flown by Indian". Never saw any @timesofindia headline say "flown by Chinese or Australian or Thai pilot" reporting an accident! What's wrong with our mentality??


Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Oct 2018 12:50

No wonder that they have lost their way. This is the cockpit of a B747 classic and it looks like it is a simulator.

Tata Group Verified account @TataCompanies

Throwback to the 50th anniversary of Tata Airlines' first flight: A picture of #JRDTata in the cockpit of the Leopard Moth from 1982! #CelebratingTheLegend



Image



and this is the cockpit of a leopard moth

Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2018 15:19

They might buy jet and merge into vistara ?

Chandrasekharan might go for it

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby rajkumar » 30 Oct 2018 18:02

Singha wrote:They might buy jet and merge into vistara ?

Chandrasekharan might go for it


Yes please the sooner the better

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 05 Nov 2018 10:26

Fog disrupts rail, road and airline traffic in dilli during the fog season. This has a ripple effect on trade, commerce, tourism and health issues leading to loss of income as well as a considerable slowdown in economic activity.

If true, why should the disruptive law not be repealed ASAP??

What is the NGT doing?? or is one single US company monsanto so powerful that none in India dare to oppose it??





Shubhangi Sharma @shubh19822

More Shubhangi Sharma Retweeted Anjali George

Delay in paddy cultivation hence the harvest&subsequent stubble burning to Oct-Nov when the monsoonal wind direction reverses, causes the smoke to arrive from the north& into Delhi choking its inhabitants: all because of Punjab govt's policy to benefit Monsanto post 2009! #Diwali


Law aiding Monsanto is reason for Delhi’s annual smoke season




Monsanto’s profits, not Diwali, creating smoke in Delhi

Arvind Kumar
November 3, 2018,

Image

Tweet by Dr Hiren Jethva, an aerosol remote sensing scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center.

In December 2017, this newspaper exposed in an article entitled “Law aiding Monsanto is reason for Delhi’s smoke season” how a law to help Monsanto was the reason for the Delhi metropolitan region being blanketed in smoke every November. That law, the Punjab Preservation of Subsoil Water Act of 2009, imposed a delay on farmers who wanted to plant rice. The delay in planting in turn created a delay in harvesting and clearing the land. Farmers burned their land to clear their field and the delay in this process meant that the smoke would now travel all the way to Delhi, which was not the case in earlier decades. Instead of targeting Hindu festivals like Diwali and banning fireworks during the festival, the government and the courts need to get to the real reason and fix it.

The reason for the smoke travelling to Delhi being a recent phenomenon is that the direction of the wind during the monsoon season blows primarily from the west into Delhi but changes in the second half of October and starts blowing from the north. When farmers burned their fields in September in earlier decades, it did not affect the Delhi region, but started impacting the capital after farmers were forced to accept the delay imposed on them.

When The Sunday Guardian published the article, Dr Hiren Jethva, an aerosol remote sensing scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, sent out a tweet (see image) saying, “Now I understand why satellites detect more fires in November post-2009 over Punjab.” When contacted, Dr Jethva added, “I would like to add here that the seasonal shift in peak crop fires had occurred prior during 2006-2009 in comparison to 2002-2005, as shown by the satellite data. Although Monsanto law became effective in 2009, I doubt that the delay in setting fires which already began in previous year was a reflection of the upcoming law. The seasonal shift post-2009 continued in the wake of the Monsanto law in conjunction with the increasing crop production, hence residue burning, making the air quality even worse during the last and first week of Oct and Nov.”

Dr Jethva’s message made me look for any policy changes that occurred between 2006 and 2009. It turns out that the process of applying pressure on farmers to delay planting paddy began in 2007. The proposal for a law mandating the delay was first proposed in 2006. Then, in 2007, Punjab Agriculture Minister Sucha Singh Langa stated that the Agriculture Department had been persuading farmers to delay sowing paddy and stated his goal of reducing the area of cultivation of paddy from 26.50 lakh hectares to 25.00 lakh hectares during the year, while increasing the acreage of cotton from 6.07 lakh hectares to 6.50 lakh hectares. The minister also stated that he had directed that Bt Cotton seeds be supplied to farmers at a rate fixed by the government.

The sale of Bt Cotton meant that the primary beneficiary would be the mega-corporation Monsanto, which seeks to control the world’s food supply. The push for Punjab’s law came from another source, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), which has acted as a shill for Monsanto around the world. Then, in 2008, before the legislature acted, the Punjab government issued a government notification imposing a delay on the planting of rice. The government’s actions in 2007 and 2008 explain Dr Jethva’s observations of the satellite data.

After the previous article was published, both the Chief Ministers of Delhi and Punjab were contacted with the information about the delay in planting rice causing the phenomenon of Delhi being enveloped in smoke. While there was silence from the Punjab Chief Minister, the Delhi government responded with an initial flurry of emails delegating the task of following up on the issue, but there has been no action on their part since then. In comparison to the quantity of smoke that envelops Delhi due to Monsanto, the amount of smoke from fireworks during Diwali and other festivals is insignificant. The festivals never resulted in the entire region being covered by smoke. The courts should stop shifting the blame from the real perpetrators of the act to innocent people.

At this point, the people of Delhi have two choices. They could either take to the streets and march against Monsanto and evict the corporation from India and restore the previous cropping pattern, or they can wait to get suffocated when Delhi once again becomes a gas chamber this year.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2018 11:51

glad to report that changi T2 (from which Indigo operates) looks aeging and backward compared to bengaluru T1 :)
it has more shops and has more gates, but most shops close around midnight and open at 7.

---
a kind of subtle class distinction operates in changi too....our flight being very early AM, we reached at 2AM.
hordes of people had reached there via last metro before midnight and were sleeping in nooks and corners waiting for morning flight to save on expensive hotel cost.

now a giant TV screen with some comfy chairs had been taken over by a horde of low end goras. some were sleeping in the chairs, some on the floor carpet. none seemed awake. the tv was on nevertheless with sound on mute.

further away some Untermensch from bangladesh and nepal mainly with a smattering of poorer indonesians were also curled up sleeping with shawls wrapped around themselves.

now along comes 3 blueshirt unarmed cops who politely i might add, wake each one of them and demand to see passport and onward ticket. the backup were 3 armed para SF types in green berets , tavor rifles, side holster pistols and full tactical gear....standing 30 paces away and just being in line of sight for subtle intimidation should anyone become defiant.

did not see the goras being questioned similarly.

the whole city is so monitored by cctv, I saw only 3 cops in 1 week....!

----

here in bluru, after immigration , there is scan of hand baggage. a few sharp gents with sandalwood paste on forehead were catching fish right and left. a bunch of lads got hauled up for 3 bottles instead of 2 , one innocent looking lady got hauled up for bringing in more than allowed duty free gold it seemed. they also have sharp civil clothes spies hovering around the exit after baggage claim , to nab suspects and make them xray the checkin baggage right there. couple weeks ago they caught a woman mule smuggling gold and a packet of gold left under a seat for cleaning crew to take out with trash later...this is modus operandi on our west coast for gulfie inbound gold smugglery :((

but nice to see sharp minds are at work harassing the wrong doers and leaving the innocents mostly alone.

indian citizens do not have to fill up any form at all. no immigration form, no customs form....just passport and boarding pass is needed.

and for foreigners/OCI its a bare minimum form with name, DOB, passport number, flight number and address india. much easier to fill than the singapore form.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Nov 2018 21:48

Rajeev Chandrasekhar Verified account @rajeev_mp Nov 4

And finally ovr 4 yrs aftr I first rqstd govt aftr a shameful incident - DGCA makes it mandatory for airlines to announce n honor martyrd bravehearts on their final journey home

Thank you @narendramodi @sureshpprabhu @jayantsinha
@FlagsOfHonour





Image



Image



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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Nov 2018 22:40

in US the c130 that usually ferries their fallen soldiers home has a special code "angel flight" looks like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIsnD87uOeo

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Nov 2018 11:21

Lion Air: Airspeed indicator malfunctioned on 4 flights



Lion Air: Airspeed indicator malfunctioned on 4 flights
Jakarta, NOV 05 2018,

Lion Air has said a technical problem with the jet was fixed after problems with the Bali to Jakarta flight. (Reuters Photo)

The "black box" data recorder from a crashed Lion Air jet shows its airspeed indicator malfunctioned on its last four flights, investigators said Monday, just hours after distraught relatives of victims confronted the airline's co-founder at a meeting organised by officials.

National Transportation Safety Committee chairman Soerjanto Tjahjono said the problem was similar on each of the four flights, including the fatal flight on October 29 in which the plane plunged into the Java Sea minutes after taking off from Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.


Erratic speed and altitude on the plane's previous flight, from Denpasar on Bali to Jakarta, were widely reported and "when we opened the black box, yes indeed the technical problem was the airspeed or the speed of the plane," Tjahjono told a news conference.

"Data from the black box showed that two flights before Denpasar-Jakarta also experienced the same problem," he said. "In the black box there were four flights that experienced problems with the airspeed indicator."

Indonesian investigators, the plane's manufacturer, Boeing, and the US National Transportation Safety Board are formulating a more specific inspection for Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes related to the airspeed problem, Tjahjono said.

"If there are urgent findings to be delivered, we will convey them to the operators and to the manufacturer," he said.

Lion Air has said a technical problem with the jet was fixed after problems with the Bali to Jakarta flight.

Investigator Nurcahyo Utomo said investigators need to review maintenance records, including what problems were reported, what repairs were done including whether components were replaced, and how the repairs were tested before the 2-month-old plane was declared airworthy.

"Currently we are looking for the cause of problem," he said "Whether the trouble came from its indicator, its measuring device or sensor, or a problem with its computer. This is what we do not know yet and we will find it out," he said.

At the meeting with family members, Tjahjono had said that information downloaded from the jet's flight data recorder was consistent with reports that the plane's speed and altitude were erratic after takeoff on its final flight.

Searchers are still trying to locate the cockpit voice recorder.

Rusdi Kirana, Lion Air's co-founder, was not invited to speak by Transport Minister Budi Karya Sumadi, who moderated the meeting between relatives and the officials who are overseeing the search effort and accident investigation.

But he stood and bowed his head after angry and distraught family members demanded that Kirana, who with his brother Kusnan Kirana founded Lion Air in 1999, identify himself.

"Lion Air has failed," said a man who identified himself as the father of passenger Shandy Johan Ramadhan, a prosecutor in a district on the island where the flight was headed.

"I want Mr Rusdi Kirana and his team to pay attention," he said. "Since the time of the crisis, I was never contacted by Lion Air. We lost our child, but there was no empathy that Lion Air showed to us." After the meeting, Kirana left in a hurry, avoiding questions from reporters.

Many families face an agonizing wait for missing relatives to be identified. Police medical experts have received nearly 140 body bags of human remains and have identified 14 victims.

Relatives questioned why the plane had been cleared to fly after suffering problems on its Bali to Jakarta flight on October 28 that included a rapid descent after takeoff that terrified passengers.

"Lion Air said the problem was fixed, is it true the problem was cleared?" asked Bambang Sukandar, whose son was on the flight. "If not, technicians in charge must be responsible," he said.

"The law is absolute, because they have stated that the plane was cleared to take off again. These bad technicians must be processed by law to prevent plane accidents from continuing in Indonesia."

Tjahjono said the large amount of small debris and the relatively small area the debris was found in showed the plane hit the water at a very high speed.

"The plane was intact when it plunged to the sea, it did not explode in the air, and the aircraft engine was running when it touched the water at high RPM — it's marked by the loss of all blades of the turbine," he said.

The Lion Air crash is the worst airline disaster in Indonesia since 1997, when 234 people died on a Garuda flight near Medan. In December 2014, an AirAsia flight from Surabaya to Singapore plunged into the sea, killing all 162 on board.

Lion Air is one of Indonesia's youngest airlines but has grown rapidly, flying to dozens of domestic and international destinations. It has been expanding aggressively in Southeast Asia, a fast-growing region of more than 600 million people.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Nov 2018 11:49

Boeing Close to Issuing Safety Warning on 737 Max


Boeing Close to Issuing Safety Warning on 737 Max

Boeing Co. is preparing to send a safety warning to operators of its new 737 Max jets in response to the investigation of last week’s fatal crash off the coast of Indonesia that left 189 dead, said a person familiar with the matter.

The bulletin from Boeing will alert airlines that erroneous readings from a flight-monitoring system can cause the planes to abruptly dive, said the person, who asked not to be named discussing details of the manufacturer’s plans. Boeing will warn pilots to follow an existing procedure to handle the problem, the person said.

The warning is based on preliminary findings from the accident involving a Lion Air jetliner, the person said. Under some circumstances, such as when pilots are manually flying, the Max jets will automatically try to push down the nose if they detect that an aerodynamic stall is possible, the person said.

One of the critical ways a plane determines if a stall is imminent is a measurement known as angle of attack, which is a calculation of the angle at which the wind is passing over the wings.

The Lion Air 737 Max 8 dove into the Java Sea on Oct. 29 minutes after takeoff, nosing downward so suddenly that it may have hit speeds of 600 miles an hour before slamming into the water. The pilots radioed a request to return to Jakarta to land, but never turned back toward the airport, according to Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee and flight-track data. The committee said they were dealing with an erroneous airspeed indication.

..................................................................

Past Accidents
Pilots raise and lower the nose of Boeing jetliners by pushing and pulling on a yoke in the cockpit, which controls panels at the tail known as elevators. In addition, a system known as elevator trim can be changed to prompt nose-up or nose-down movement.

The angle of attack readings are fed into a computer that in some cases will attempt to push down the nose using the elevator trim system. In the early days of the jet age, the elevator trim system was linked to several accidents. If pilots aren’t careful, they can cause severe nose-down trim settings that make it impossible to level a plane.

Such an issue arose in 2016 at Rostov-on-Don Airport in Russia when a FlyDubai 737-800 nosed over and slammed into the runway at a steep angle, according to an interim report by Russian investigators. That case didn’t involve the angle-of-attack system. One of the pilots had trimmed the plane to push the nose down while trying to climb after aborting a landing, the report said. All 62 people aboard died.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2018 19:29

to me it increasingly looks like the mysterious case of the qantas flight that was hushed up. rogue sensor sends bad data to computer, whose sw cannot handle the erratic / spiky readings and goes rogue, fighting with the pilots for control of the FCS or even worse locking out the pilot inputs because they were programmed that way to delete manual inputs when plane deemed to have departed beyond controlled regime.

in that case a grizzled old 4-stripe warrior was at the controls, luckily steeped in naval fighter tactics of steep spiraling descents and emergencies and managed to save the plane and all lives but suffered from PTSD and was made to do omerta, until after retirement when he finally spoke up. in a way part of him died that day itself.

that incident was at 37,000 feet so enough room to recover, here the plane was barely at 5000 feet......pilots might have desperately tried to pull the nose up but got locked out.

Boeing needs to come out with a full explanation and fix.

Image

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-un ... w26ae.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Nov 2018 20:00

Singha ji,

The pilots could have disabled a lot of the automatics and in the first instance, established a safe and stable flight first.

The accident happened in broad daylight, good weather and they were at 5000 ft.

They could have set engine thrust and attitude manually and hand flown the plane. The horizon was clearly visible so any change of bank and attitude would be very obviously noticeable and hence correctable.

Also, standby instruments would have been available.

All analysis thereafter could have followed this initial action.

In situations like this, pilot 101 says "aviate, navigate, communicate".

As long as there was no structural damage and the flight controls were OK, one or both engines were producing power, the 737 will get you home any day of the week.

just saying onlee.

Have to wait for more reliable specifics, though.
Last edited by chetak on 07 Nov 2018 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sum » 07 Nov 2018 20:06

Extraordinary read.
Thanks for posting!!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 08 Nov 2018 06:57

Women pilots' percentage in India is twice that of global average.

India not only has the highest percentage of women airline pilots in the world, but the percentage of women pilots in India is more than double the global average, according to latest data released by International Society of Women Airline Pilots (ISA+21).

According to the latest statistics, the percentage of women airline pilots in the world stands around 5.4%. In India, the percentage of women pilots currently is 12.4 %. India employs a total of 8,797 pilots of which 1,092 are women and 385 of these are female captains, according to ISA+21. Globally, the total number of airline pilots is over 1.5 lakh of which only 8,061 are women and 2,190 are women captains.

TOI was the first to report that the percentage of female pilots in India was way above the global average. In a report carried on September 11 2006, TOI had quoted ISA+21 data which said that the global percentage of women pilots was 5.9%. Back then, the percentage of women airline pilots in India was 11%, which still was double the global average.

According to latest data, Delhi-based regional carrier Zoom employs the highest percentage of women pilots in the world, at 30%. Of the 30 pilots it employs, nine are women.

But the big numbers are with IndiGo, SpiceJet, Jet Airways and Air India. IndiGo has the second highest percentage of women pilots at nearly 13.9%. Of the 2,689 pilots that IndiGo employs, 351 are women. Of the 1,867 pilots in Jet Airways, 231 are women (12.4%). SpiceJet has 853 pilots of which 113 are women (13.2%), while Air India, country’s pioneer in employing women pilots, has 1,710 pilots of which 217 are women pilots (12.7%).

In fact, IndiGo and Jet Airways are the only two carriers in the world, other than US-based carriers like United Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines and Southwest, where the number of female captains is currently in three digits. At 299 female captains, United Airlines employs the largest number of women commanders in the world, followed by American Airlines at 152 and Southwest at 121. IndiGo has 118 women commanders and Jet Airways 100.

However, the percentage of women pilots in US-based carriers is just above global average. Only 7.5% of pilots employed by United Airlines are female, while for Delta the percentage is 4.7.

An IndiGo spokesperson said, “In the past five years, the number of women pilots has increased from 80 to over 330. We have women pilots flying as trainers and some are in managerial positions as well. Two of our women pilots have been nominated as flight operations inspectors with DGCA.’’

The official added: “IndiGo is the only airline to have crèches, which enable both women and men to strike a balance between their early parenthood responsibilities and professional obligations. In addition to the mandatory maternity leave policy, IndiGo offers flexibility to women pilots to continue working (excluding flying duties) during their maternity, which benefits them in two ways: first, IndiGo gives an office duty allowance which is separate from the standard salary, and second, this enables women pilots to constructively stay engaged with the profession in spite of having to take a break from their flying duties.’’

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 08 Nov 2018 14:20


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 08 Nov 2018 17:41

Boeing has stepped out of the "pilot can override anything" box and joined the "pilot feeds dog, dog bites pilot if he touches anything" bandwagon pioneered by Airbus. I can not disclose how I know, but trust me when I say this. The scenario outlined in the news is real wrto the 737MAX. The pilot may not override the stall recovery effort by the computer.

The question of whether to allow the pilot to override or not is a very complex one, and the arguments really stack up against it. Once again, can't disclose how I know.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Nov 2018 23:30

Dgca has sent note to all indian operators today on this

At 500 kmph the lion air plane would take 15 secs from 5000 feet to sea level. No real time to think any solution

https://www.news18.com/news/india/take- ... 33433.html

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Nov 2018 23:54

There is nothing secret about envelope protection.

If Boeing has changed strategy on envelope protection, it will be commonly known to many, including pilots being trained, engineers doing maintenance, equipment manufacturers and aviation enthusiasts etc.

That said, its how the control laws degrade in a specific given scenario and how the pilot is able to cope with the degrade and still aviate, albeit with a with reduced functionality from his systems that counts.

Basically, unreliable airspeed is not really that big a deal. There are safe ways to handle this emergency and still maintain a fairly stable flight.

The safest way is to still manage thrust and attitude and hand fly the aeroplane until the pilots are reasonably sure of what's causing the problem.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Nov 2018 23:58

Singha wrote:Dgca has sent note to all indian operators today on this

At 500 kmph the lion air plane would take 15 secs from 5000 feet to sea level. No real time to think any solution

https://www.news18.com/news/india/take- ... 33433.html


The nose dive was the beginning of the end.

The time think, if at all, was before this happened.

This is a knee jerk from the DGCA.

Its what is called yard arm clearance or CYA.

It is the manufacturer who may come out with some detailed instructions once the facts of the case become clearly known.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 09:59

pilots forums speak of some standard flap, thrust and nose pitch settings to use when things head south and time is needed to figure things out. these are designed to keep the plane level and in safe speed.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 13:38

here is the real FAA advisory developed in consultation with boeing. it lists a set of error conditions that may happen singly or together and remedial action

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... rgency.pdf

soln seems disconnect the FCS from applying horizontal stabilizer trim and go manual for rest of flight. but to recognize it as a problem and take remedial action within 15 secs to impact as in lion air case would need to run by instinct based on prior simulator training...

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Nov 2018 14:32

Singha wrote:here is the real FAA advisory developed in consultation with boeing. it lists a set of error conditions that may happen singly or together and remedial action

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... rgency.pdf

soln seems disconnect the FCS from applying horizontal stabilizer trim and go manual for rest of flight. but to recognize it as a problem and take remedial action within 15 secs to impact as in lion air case would need to run by instinct based on prior simulator training...


This was a known problem on the aircraft due to previous occurrences and unofficial chatter must have taken place between some company pilots.

This is speculation, I agree.

AP off is the first thing before hand flying the aeroplane.

These guys are not drained out, pot bellied, semi comatose govt employees idly gossiping in the office during working hours.

They are highly trained, constantly alert and legally licensed professional pilots doing a dangerous job in a such a way so as to contain risk and promote flight safety. These guys are legally subject to regular sim training where different emergencies are practised, difficult situations are purposely created so that they are able to analyse rapidly find acceptable solutions within the limitations of the aircraft's operating envelope and act quickly to defuse emerging crises and also they are periodically put through gruelling check rides by regulatory authorities to verify their competence and their ability to function effectively in the cockpit.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 15:12

the captain was highly experienced and would have been in cockpit early after the takeoff.

mid flight the captain may leave cockpit for restroom but they block the aisle with a food cart and a air hostess seems to get in his seat and another stands guard behind the food cart.

whatever happened was over very fast. no chance to even talk to ATC and plan something.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2018 15:33

The capatain was young and brialliant chap , many of his friends spoke about him as a very brilliant guy who they would turn too for any technical help/clarification.

I hope they dont blame the captain to save boeing arse from a flawed design issue

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2018 15:35

Dileep wrote:Boeing has stepped out of the "pilot can override anything" box and joined the "pilot feeds dog, dog bites pilot if he touches anything" bandwagon pioneered by Airbus. I can not disclose how I know, but trust me when I say this. The scenario outlined in the news is real wrto the 737MAX. The pilot may not override the stall recovery effort by the computer.

The question of whether to allow the pilot to override or not is a very complex one, and the arguments really stack up against it. Once again, can't disclose how I know.


Wrong Data by Flawed instrument with aircraft running on autopilot has been the cause of quite a few disaster including Air France one where the computer simply shut itself out due to wrong data due to frozen pitot tube and pilot panicked and were too busy doing other things instead of doing the right one .......Basic flying skills were not adheared too

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 15:52

during airshow light of the A320 before a huge vip audience it came on a low pass and then rose no further, crashing into a forest, killing 3 people.
i wonder what happened then. the a320 was a scary leap into the future for a world not used to such automation and some confusing cockpit knobs.
some allegations of black box tampering

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Nov 2018 16:07

Singha wrote:during the inaugural flight of the A320 before a huge vip audience it took off and then rose no further, crashing into a forest, killing all staff.
i wonder what happened then. the a320 was a scary leap into the future for a world not used to such automation and some confusing cockpit knobs.


Can you link to this accident saar??

A 320, however, did crash during an airshow because the airbus test pilot flying misunderstood the new software and the automated system, as indeed, the two pilots of the IA 320 that crashed in bangalore during the initial days of the A320 induction.

For a great many pilots flying in this part of the world, educational qualifications and scholastic achievements are marginal as also minimal at best.

The situation is slowly improving now.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Nov 2018 16:19

Austin wrote:The capatain was young and brialliant chap , many of his friends spoke about him as a very brilliant guy who they would turn too for any technical help/clarification.

I hope they dont blame the captain to save boeing arse from a flawed design issue


Austin, saar,

There are too many agencies involved in the accident investigation and the black box raw data will reach many hands for analysis too.

A coverup is well nigh impossible.

Things in this part of the world are not in the control of the amerikis or the europeans.

Its a ummah country to start with and, not one that's running around with a begging bowl either.

BTW, and not to start a flame war and don't misunderstand me please but when was the last time that anyone heard the friends, family, neighbours et al ever say that the dead guy was not brilliant??

It's par for the course.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Supratik » 09 Nov 2018 18:54


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 19:58

its a miracle only 3 people died here - 1 was a disabled boy who could not move, 1 was a girl who could not undo her seat belt and 1 was a woman who moved back from the exit attempting to save the poor girl. her brother was about to help her but was pushed away by the horde of people rushing to the exit.


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 20:07

reconstruction of the a320 crash in bangalore. caused by choosing the wrong knob to set the descent rate, instead altitude knob was chosen


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 21:27

i took a look at beijing and shanghai(pudong and hongqiao) airports. none of them have any room to expand further being hemmed in all sides.

all parallel runways
beijing - 3 runways
hongqiao - 2 runways
pudong - 4 runways, plus a unused 5th one marked with X

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 21:29

the strangest one is denver airport. runways built like WW3 raid is imminent - 4 parallel and 2 more at right angle. the airport itself is pretty small compared to beijing or shanghai

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denve ... 04.6737376

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 22:24

Simulation of last min of lion air based on flight data
If this be true in 15 secs it was over

https://twitter.com/dremtee/status/1060 ... 20288?s=19

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 09 Nov 2018 23:59

Singha wrote:the strangest one is denver airport. runways built like WW3 raid is imminent - 4 parallel and 2 more at right angle. the airport itself is pretty small compared to beijing or shanghai

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denve ... 04.6737376

They made some smart moves collectively, not just for the airport. Since there're up in the mountains right in the middle of country with lots of free space, they built a large airport, managed to attract Southwest and a few others to establish hubs, and worked with international companies to bring their offices there for cheap, tied to nonstop international flights. There are companies like Panasonic whose US HQ is in Denver and there's a Denver-Tokyo flight. An example of maximizing one's seemingly weak cards.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 10 Nov 2018 12:57

That A320 crash whole doing a flyby is an example of many things going wrong. Pilots were not told of change of plans to do a flyby, they had to shift to another runway for the flyby, a dirt runway instead of a concrete one, etc etc. So they spotted the airfield very late, so had to descend quicker than they should have, so even after reaching target altitude of 100ft the plane descended further before they could stabilise and hit the trees. Plane thought it was going to stall and ignore pilot commands to lift the nose and instead pushed it down.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Nov 2018 13:47

Prasad wrote:That A320 crash whole doing a flyby is an example of many things going wrong. Pilots were not told of change of plans to do a flyby, they had to shift to another runway for the flyby, a dirt runway instead of a concrete one, etc etc. So they spotted the airfield very late, so had to descend quicker than they should have, so even after reaching target altitude of 100ft the plane descended further before they could stabilise and hit the trees. Plane thought it was going to stall and ignore pilot commands to lift the nose and instead pushed it down.



In the bangalore crash too, the plane thought different from what the pilot thought and so it suppressed the pilot's desperate command to pitch the nose up and held straight and level. The V2500 engines took 6-7 odd seconds to spool up, just like all the other big/bigger engines in this thrust class. The airbus, then simply mushed into the ground.

Airbus envelope protection 1, pilot 0.

The software triggers for both crashes were very different.

BTW, look at today's newspaper ad for pilots required by the ICG.

It says commercial pilots licence + minimum 12 Std pass with science and math.

And yet we see grizzled oldies with very sound post graduate engg degrees and doctorates with long years of experience struggling to make some sense of the airbus/boeing flight control logic.

What makes us think that some or even any of these "12 std pass" guys would be more successful than the grizzled oldies in deciphering the arcane secrets of the software maverns at the airbus/boeing development centers?? and that too in real time and right in the middle of a rapidly developing emergency situation??

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 10 Nov 2018 18:36

Couple of problems with automatic claws overriding pilot input is that a) there is insufficient communication to the pilots that the computer is doing whatever it is doing - grade A pisspoor ux design (This has manifested in many crashes) and b) lack of a mechanism for pilot to override the computers in cases like this where the pilot actually knows what hes doing and needs a very quick mechanism to perform some action to save everyone.


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