Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby munna » 22 May 2010 08:11

AI plane crashes in Mangalore, 160 dead
About 160 passengers are feared dead as a Mangalore bound Air India Express flight coming from Dubai overshot the Mangalore airport runway on Saturday at 6.30 am.
According to eyewitness account, the Boeing 737 flight, which is believed to be carrying 165 passengers including 4 infants burst into flames soon after it overshot the runway while landing

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Muppalla » 22 May 2010 08:14

So far seven rescued. 25 ambulances were there now at the spot as per latest reports.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2010 08:14

Mangalore Airport is on top of a hill with a steep drop on all four sides.
The news reporters are saying that the pilot overshot the runway. The important point to be noted is that there is NO space at either end of the runway for a safe overshoot for a plane. Any plane that overshoots Mangalore will fall down a 275-300 Ft drop.

Image

Karnataka Home Minister though says that the accident occured about 10 kms away from the airport.

It is possible that due to bad weather, the pilot aborted the landing and took off immediately (that'll perhaps explain the burst wheels) and attempted a turnaround.
The bursted wheels must have ruptured the fuel tanks and the plane caught fire.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2010 08:17

silchar airport is also of a similar nature.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 May 2010 08:24

Is the broadcast from suvarn showing a body drenched in foam??? repeatedly

effing idiots

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 22 May 2010 08:31

What I could glean from the tube:

1. Crashed upon aborted landing. There was bad weather.
2. Plane is at 500 metres off the end of runway, but 10km away by road access.
3. The only thing remaining is the tailplane. The fuselage is totally disintegrated
4. 7 people survived in critical conditions

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 22 May 2010 08:32

:(

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 22 May 2010 08:39

Correction: The plane CAN'T BE at 500metres, as I look at GE images. Now the tube says it is at 10km, which makes sense

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2010 08:42

The fire extinguishers emit a form of foam, to prevent the oxygen reaching the fire.
That child's body is covered in foam. The immediate thing that must be done is to clear the mouth, nose and eyes of that foam so that the person can breathe.

Firstly it is not right to lift a person off in your arms after ANY accident. The cervical vertebrae of the neck are very commonly fractured in accidents, because the head undergoes a whiplash movement in high speed accidents.

It is of utmost importance to log roll a patient onto a gantry or a strecher, and the Neck immobilized immediately by a sandbag and a tape across the forehead and chin
Image
or to use a Philadelphia collar to protect the neck
Image
This collar costs a crummy 500 Rs, every ambulance is supposed to carry several of them in different sizes.

Will some plastic manufacturer in India make lightweight strechers now for gods sake? And will GoI make ambulance services in the whole country maintain certain minimum standards please?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2010 08:54

Singha wrote:silchar airport is also of a similar nature.

Apart from Silchar, Lengpui-Aizwal is even worse.
My BIL used to fly the Kolkata Aizwal route several years ago, he has dozens of stories of how mishaps nearly happened. Hitting airpockets and big ones at that was very common flying off those hills. Also the wind shear whenever they crossed a particular hill would make those small planes difficult to control. (Perhaps there was an unwritten policy to not have married men in the crew)

These airports have only rudimentary navigation, no facility for operations after dark. My BIL tells me that pilots latch on to the homing signals by the local All India Radio stations which I think also emit a homing beacon. That's how they used to navigate not too far back.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Prem » 22 May 2010 08:56

Sad news !! Was this airport not upgraded few months ago?

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Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby NRao » 22 May 2010 09:08


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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby NRao » 22 May 2010 09:11


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2010 09:15

The AAI is no poor organization. Why can't GoI have state of the art landing and other saftey measures in all civilian and military airports? A lot of stuff can be sourced from within India.

Everyone seems to be waiting for GAGAN to get operational, but there is a lot that needs to be done on the ground.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Anant » 22 May 2010 09:22

JFK airport has an engineered arrestor system at the end of the runaway which basically is a form of concrete in which jets get stuck, bleed speed and then stop if they have overshot the runaway. At such an airport, I wish these poor folks had this option. However, regardless of any of this, this news crushes me. I pray for the lives lost and the poor loved ones of these people who lost their lives today. I am in a state of shock and the last time I felt like this way was Kanishka and the time before was Air India crashing into the arabian sea in Bombay ages ago. Rest in peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered ... tor_system

What makes it worse is I am a Mangalorean Konkani.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby Venkarl » 22 May 2010 09:38

Sad :( God bless the souls.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby Vinod Ji » 22 May 2010 09:43

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/10141297.stm
Sad day for all of us.
look @ map of India! Already objected in comments.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2010 09:55

the little girl looked kia to me, body burned to grey colour :( foam or no foam wont make a diff there. the half dozen who survived were either thrown from their seats to safety or somehow crawled away on their own long before anyone could arrive on the scene given the terrain. now its just a salvage op.

I did not realize mangalore had such wayanadish terrain and forests.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Anant » 22 May 2010 10:05

NDTV reports the pilot was an ex-pat Serb. Is there that much of an Indian pilot shortage?

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby putnanja » 22 May 2010 10:07

sad news indeed! May all RIP! :(

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2010 10:07

ibnlive:

One jumped off the plane, survived: eyewitness
CNN-IBN
Posted on May 22, 2010 at 09:47

Mangalore: According to eyewitnesses, one person named Abdullah, who was on-board the Air India Boeing 737 flight that crashed in Mangalore, survived by jumping out of the plane as it was skidding down the hilltop.

"When the flight was skidding down to the pond, one passenger jumped from the flight and survived the crash," says Mohidden Bava, an eyewitness.

According to Bava, it was raining when the flight made an attempt to land at the Mangalore airport.

"When the flight landed, it was raining. The pilot could not control the plane and it hit the radar before falling off to the pond after which it caught fire" Bava adds.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby CRamS » 22 May 2010 10:12

Sad story, I mean the plane was about to land, and then disaster. Relatives of the dead must have been waiting in anticipation to receive their loved ones.

Not that I am the center of the universe or anything, but I do some amount of business travel, and I cannot imagine my children waiting to pick me up while returning from a trip only to be told that the plane crashed while landing and daddy is gone!!! Ditto the kith and kin of our brave jawans and officers killed in action in J&K defending mother India from Paki barbarians.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 22 May 2010 10:55

Singha wrote:the little girl looked kia to me, body burned to grey colour :( foam or no foam wont make a diff there.


But the media should show some sensitivity and sense - at least blur that part of the image.

Terrible terrible tragedy. Lets just hope the survivors in the hospital make it thru - all of them.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby chaanakya » 22 May 2010 11:09

Scene is heartrending. RIP to all departed.

Facts being reported on News Channel.(will update here till edit button shows)

8 people survived, getting treatment at Manglore Hospitals. Director (Personnel) told IX-812 from Dubai to Manglore overshot the runway. Airport was ok and operational. 160 passengers and 6 Crew members.Pilot from of Serbian origin , British citizen,Capt Zlatko Glusica(age 55) , 10,000 flying hrs , 19 landings under his belt at this airport. Co pilot HS Ahluwalia stationed at Manglore had 66 landings there. Light drizzle, unconfirmed tyre burst.Small ,old runway not operational due to Kingfisher plane , permitted to land on new and longer runway. Length of runway is sufficient for normal landing, but not if overshot/late landing. Tried to take off, hit ILS antenna veered off, broke and fell into valley. no SOS signal. lost contact at the last moment.Visibility 6KM, calm wind, Crash time 22.5.2010:0603Hrs, Boeing 737-800 NG,Reg No VT-AXV bought six years ago(January 15, 2008. Air India Express Subsidiary of Air India.
169 passengers, 9 no show(lucky not to board the plane),160 boarded (four infants, two invalids needing wheelchair), 6 crew, 7 survivor,(one four year old child died on way to at hospital), 7 names of survivor released. 159 departed for heavenly abode.

FDR/CVR not yet recovered till 1937 Hrs.. Locals did exemplary SAR work. 158 bodies recovered, many badly charred.
Second biggest accident in IN by National airlne after Jan 1, 1978 when Air India flight crashed into Arabian Sea; 213 killed
last accident on Jul 17, 2000 when Alliance Air flight crashed at Patna airport, 60 passengers killed. Nearly a decade of accident free run.
Praful Patel offered to resign accepting moral responsibility, as usual PM refused to accept it.

Helpline No.
New Delhi
011-25656196, 25603101
Bangalore
080-66785172,22273310
Manglore
082-2220422, 2010167
Dubai
009971-2165829,2156828
Last edited by chaanakya on 22 May 2010 22:53, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby bahdada » 22 May 2010 11:31

What a tragedy. I can't imagine. Just thinking that the plane touched down and everyone probably started to exhale, looking at the airport out their windows, getting ready themselves ready and starting to unbuckle all to just perish moments later. :cry:

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby Chandragupta » 22 May 2010 11:41

Very sad news indeed. My deepest condolences to the families of the victims.

Bhagwan unki aatma ko shanti de.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby shyam » 22 May 2010 11:43


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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 May 2010 12:16

Anant wrote:NDTV reports the pilot was an ex-pat Serb. Is there that much of an Indian pilot shortage?


Expat captains were involved in the deccan aircraft that did a hard landing at old Bangalore airport and broke off its nose wheel and caused serious damage to the aircraft as also the recent kingfisher aircraft that went off the runway at Bombay. Both air craft were ATRs and the second one was a complete write off.

Please NOTE: Just stating facts,not pointing fingers. There are some damn good expats out there flying in India

Most run of the mill expats have been sent home because of DGCA regulations that mandates replacement of expats by Indians in the cockpit. If an expat is flying today in India, he is probably a experienced TRI or TRE. The problem with table top runways is that you have to get it right every single time with just no room for error.

Sad that such a thing happened. The Mangalore International airport (VOML) has ILS/DME /VOR. Hope that everything was working. The expat pilot had operated in India for around two years and had monsoon experience which has recently been made mandatory for both crew in the cockpit. Persistent rumors of the aircraft wing hitting the localizer installation after touchdown. Maybe the Captain was attempting a go round. The black boxes will definitely be available and hopefully undamaged.

Our prayers are with the departed and their families.

Airlines are very busy conducting the mandatory monsoon training for their pilots for the past month or so ever since the CAR from DGCA came out.
Last edited by chetak on 22 May 2010 14:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dilbu » 22 May 2010 12:50

Very sad. Kozhikkode airport that I use regularly is also tabletop. I can imagine the horror. :(

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby krishnan » 22 May 2010 13:22

For 24-year-old Saudi-based businessman Sameer A Shaikh going to attend the last rites of his grandmother, the Mangalore plane crash was a double blow as he lost 16 relatives in it. All of them, like Sameer,


thats some very hard blow to take. May god help him in this hour

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby SSridhar » 22 May 2010 13:55

Very, very tragic indeed.
Condolences to the next of those dead, and hope that those who are injured would recover soon.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Mahendra » 22 May 2010 14:11

RIP

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 22 May 2010 14:12

Singha wrote:I did not realize mangalore had such wayanadish terrain and forests.

Mangalore has no tract of flat land worth talking about - the region is almost entirely made up of rolling hills. That in itself necessitated the construction of the table top runway there. The planes inbound from Dubai typically turn in for the final approach over the Tannirbavi/Panambur beach area and head straight towards the Bajpe Airport - after about 1.5km past the beach, the rolling hills begin to appear on the flight path and then there is no flat land anywhere to be seen right up to the airport. Usually it is an awe inspiring experience to land at Bajpe during the monsoons, but it wasn't to be for the unfortunate souls aboard IX892 today :cry:

About the crash site being 10km - it is most probably the road distance as some of you have guessed. The plane is probably at the Kenjar end of the runway, which is close to the new (as yet non-operational) terminal. One can see the KR tracks passing near the site in some of the footage being shown. One would need to drive all the way around the airport to get there.

The way the 'national' news channels are struggling to get a decent coverage going is pathetic to say the least. Currently all are busy screaming hoarse about the table top runways and dangers they pose without even bothering to wait for some facts to emerge. In the morning we heard about 25 'ambulances' battling flames :roll: on TimesNow and Headlines Today was cribbing about the presence of locals on the crash site.

A bit about the airport - it became operational in 1951 itself and was expanded with a second runway in 2006, one which is about 2.9km long and is made up of concrete, as opposed to the older runway of 1.9km length which is asphalted. The runway construction was not an easy job and they had to literally fill up valleys between hills to create enough flat land for the new runway. Some of you might have heard one of the survivors complaining about the bumpy runway - IMHO its because of the gaps between the concrete blocks most probably.

The planes currently land on the concrete runway, turn-around on the runway itself (no parallel taxiways are present) and return back up to the old terminal. Plans for taxiway construction is in place, but the amount of forest cover that may get destroyed could create problems - but then again todays mishap could fuel further changes to the airport if the nature of the airport is found to be at fault.

The new runway was lengthened further from initially lower measurements after some airlines expressed interest to operate aircrafts like 767 to routes to gulf. This though never materialized, but the runway did get lengthened.

To make matters worse, the road up to the airport from the city too is pretty narrow and has many tight and winding corners. The ongoing widening and concreting work (going on for about - wait for it - 7+yrs) would have slowed down the ambulances and fire fighting vehicles at least slightly.

It is a very sad day indeed. Hope the departed souls RIP.

BTW there had been an incident of a plane overshooting the runway in Mangalore, sometime in the late 1980s IIRC. I remember reading somewhere a very long time ago that it was an Avro and that Veerappa Moily (the Union Justice Minister and ex-KA CM) was aboard the flight. Apparently the plane got stuck on some large boulder or something along the sides of the hill, and people survived with injuries. I have no links to back this story up, so take it FWIW.

Added later: The newspapers have already published it! I had the timeline wrong. Here's the link.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2010 14:55

only ones not shouting on TV so far are former pilots and retired one air marshal. they gave their knowledge and kept quiet rather than usual TV reporter chattering to fill up the air time.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 22 May 2010 15:00

Saw a survivor account on TV.

The plane landed hard, and skidded to the side. It hit the ILS building and caught fire. Then it went down the slope, and in the process broke into two. The pax sitting in that row, six of them, jumped out and escaped. By the time, fire engulfed the plane and the rest of the pax burnt dead.

A terrible, terrible day indeed!

And does people think having the runway on flat land can help in this kind of accident? Fat chance!! For example, if it happens at COK, the plane would have gone into the river, and had the same fate. Tabletop runway is a strawman.

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Re: Air India plane crash in mangalore

Postby Prabu » 22 May 2010 15:17

Condolences ! RIP.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2010 15:58

per TV = pilots between them had 10,000 hrs exp, so the captain was a old salt
he had flown the same flight earlier on this sector, was not new to mangalore airport
one wing (right wing) hit the concrete "localizer" building off the runway in the 90m spillover zone and this broken wing
got left behind there
the scene onsite is that the narrow one lane roads are clogged with ambulances and police vehicles, 1000s of people
have descended on the scene . a few hundred have joined the fire brigade in bringing up the dead bodies one by one
up the very steep muddy slope. the rest few 1000 are just standing there clogging up the whole area.

lots of police , doing nothinsg in particular.
the airport fire trucks (imported looking) are there onsite.
a few excavator cranes are there and trying to improve the area for salvage ops on the slope

the black box will likely be found tomorrow. boeing is sending a team.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Bob V » 22 May 2010 16:14

And does people think having the runway on flat land can help in this kind of accident? Fat chance!! For example, if it happens at COK, the plane would have gone into the river, and had the same fate. Tabletop runway is a strawman.

it has got more to do with the adjustments in approach than the orientation,location or length of the runway.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Manu » 22 May 2010 18:01

Parmatma marne walon ki aatma ko shanti de...

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 May 2010 18:36

Bob V wrote:it has got more to do with the adjustments in approach than the orientation,location or length of the runway.


Bob V saar,

The poor chap should have gone around and made another approach.

Pilots are naturally tense approaching a table top runway. There may have been fatigue also in this case to cloud judgments and slow down reactions. There are reports of a tire burst. Must have been an extremely high workload in the cockpit during those last final minutes.

The cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder will reveal the sad and true story.

I see a lot of pilots and instructors doing their checks in difficult airports. VOML - Mangalore International Airport being a favorite of the instructor.

Normally, difficult airports and marginal conditions are practiced on the simulator or during supernumerary flights or even route checks before they unleash the captain for normal operations.

Wet runway has become of particular interest to our DGCA what with a spate of incidents and many pilots not having adequate gyan on the subject.

The first time I landed at Mangalore years ago, the most experienced pilot in our group wrote off a new set of tires in his anxiety to brake in time. He still had miles of runway left. :)

All the other youngsters made very good landings one after the other because they assumed that it was another normal let down.

I still remember that it was a clear day, bright sunshine, almost nil winds and some were tense and others not so much.


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