Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2015 15:09

they need a high mast mounted AD radar to locate and kill these drones. perhaps their own drone to tail these drones back to their lair.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 04 Nov 2015 06:05

The draft of NCAP 2015 states promotion of general aviation as one of its objectives. However, it is not covered under any of the subsequent policy issues. One cannot have a sustainable Aero "Make in India" and skill development initiative, without encouraging domestic General aviation.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 04 Nov 2015 18:44

X-post from PRC thread. Mods I can remove this post if its not suitable for this thread

Comac C929 :China And Russia Join Forces To Build New Jumbo Jet - A challenger appears

China and Russia are taking their high tech relationship to the next level, as the preliminary design for their jumbo jet will be completed by July. The C929 will be China's ever largest civilian aircraft, and Russia's largest post-Cold War jetliner.

The United Aircraft Corporation (UAV) and China's COMAC civilian aviation firm have been collaborating since early 2014 to build a wide body jetliner capable of seating 250 to 280 passengers in a 3-class configuration, with a range of 12,000km. While this aircraft has not yet been named, its Chinese designation is likely to be C929 (COMAC's 190 passenger C919 is currently China's largest civil aircraft project).

Russia has high hopes for the C929, as evidenced by the string of Russian defense and industry ministers praising the jet to the press. UAC President Yuri Slyusar said that the C929 will cost $13 billion to develop, with a first flight between 2021 and 2022. Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov says that Chinese and Russian engineers will develop the prototype blueprints between 2016 and 2018, with a service entry date of 2025. Slyusar notes that UAC will build the composite wing and tail of the C929, while China will handle fuselage construction. To reduce costs and improve reliability, the initial C929 is likely to use Western engines from Pratt & Whitney, General Electric or Rolls Royce, though Russia's United Engine Corporation hopes to power some C929 by 2030. Chinese technologies would likely include the use of advanced manufacturing techniques like 3D printing, not to mention funding.

The C929's basic 290 passenger capacity suggests that it would have a maximum takeoff weight of about 250 tons, about the same size as the Boeing 787 or Airbus 350. On the civilian side, initial C929s may not be technologically advanced as their Western counterparts, but they would provide a lower cost alternative for airlines around the world. Likewise, a militarized C929 would be a welcome addition to China's military aviation. A C929 in PLAAF service could serve as a refueling tanker (the similarly sized A330 MRTT is already in Australian, British, Saudi and Singaporean service) for Chinese bombers and stealth fighters. The C929 would also be more fuel efficient than Y-20 and Il-76 cargo planes, making it a longer ranged aerial command center for Chinese air operations, as well as serving as an "Air Force One" for Chinese leaders, in addition to being an airborne nuclear command post.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Nov 2015 08:48

I was going to post this in PRC Economic Thread but this is not a bad place as well!

This was sent to me via a friend.

Wanted: SENIOR AIRCRAFT STRESS ANALYST FEM / ABAQUS SPECIALIST
Description:
Four year university degreed Engineer with significant FEM experience analyzing large commercial aircraft composite structures using ABAQUS software. Experience analyzing composite wing structure a plus. 6-9 Month Contract Position.

Location: Beijing, China
http://windspeedtech.com/careers/

The above was apparently posted on an American job portal.

To make Saras work, it probably wouldn't hurt to get outside consultancy...not specifically from outside entities but individual domain experts. Colab with outside entities involves huge sums of money along with govt-govt approvals, lots of bureaucracy etc. NAL could in principle partner up with an Indian private firm, created solely for specialized consultation purposes and in turn these private firms can hire external lateral & experts like the above to iron out some existing issues as well as recommend improvements. Of course the final validation of the above will be via testing which will still be NAL/DGCA/CEMILAC domain.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Nov 2015 10:13

Debris of Crashed Pawan Hans Chopper Found, Search on for Missing Pilots

Mumbai: The debris of the Pawan Hans helicopter that crashed off the coast of Mumbai on Wednesday has been recovered. A massive search operation is on to locate the two missing pilots.

Members of the search operation have recovered a portion of the door of the chopper which crashed around two nautical miles away from the SLQ Oil rig.

The 14-seater Pawan Hans Dauphin AS 365-N3 had two pilots on board on a night landing training mission. The cause of the crash is yet to be determined.

The names of the pilots are Commander E Samuel and co-pilot TK Guha, both living at the PHL residential complex in Mumbai.

Two Indian Coast Guard ships have been diverted to the area, and a helicopter carrying ship was also dispatched from Porbandar port. Two Dornier choppers from Daman and Porbander were launched earlier on Thursday.

After the crash, Indian Navy's Immediate Supply Vessels T48a nd T50, a naval destroyer INS Mumbai, a night capable helicopter Seaking C and other vessels were rushed to the area to trace the missing chopper, but rescue operations were hampered due to the morning haze.

The chopper crashed at around 7:30 pm on Wednesday while carrying out night landing practice at Bombay High, a mid-sea oil rig run by Oil and Natural Gas Corporation of India (ONGC). ONGC hires Pawan Hans helicopters to ferry its officials from Mumbai to its offshore oilfield.

The 14-seater VTPWF Dauphin aircraft of 2001-make took off from the ONGC installation at 7:12 PM and contact with it was lost eight minutes later, a top official of the state-run Pawan Hans said.

Pawan Hans Limited is a government owned company with 46 helicopters in its fleet. It primarily provides helicopter support services to the oil sector for its off-shore exploration operations and services in remote and hilly areas and charter services to promote tourism.

In August this year, a Pawan Hans helicopter had crashed in Arunachal Pradesh. Three people including the two pilots died in that accident.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2015 12:21

SCA is considering the possibility of delivery to 50 SSJ100 aircraft in India

DUBAI, November 8 - RIA Novosti. "Sukhoi Civil Aircraft" (GSS) are in talks with Indian airlines to supply 50 Sukhoi Superjet 100 aircraft a number of airlines, told the president Ilya Tarasenko.

"We are now actively involved together with Tata on the definition of the offset program, we can offer in India. We are there, too, on the part of co-operatives working on issues of deliveries of aircraft there (in India - Ed.)", - He told reporters.

"It is planned to put about 50 airplanes, I think, somewhere in 2018. This is different airline - there is a large pool of carriers," - said Tarasenko, without specifying the names of the companies.

Tata Group - the Indian transnational company, with headquarters in Mumbai, working in communications and information technology, engineering, production of materials, services, energy, and it is composed of 114 companies. The Group has offices in more than 80 countries.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Nov 2015 22:10

all open 100% for firangs
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 738955.cms

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 12 Nov 2015 16:28

The 100 seater commercial aviation platforms got a little bit more crowded this week with this:

MRJ makes its first flight

A couple of pictures:

Congrats to Mitsubishi on the successful maiden flight.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Nov 2015 20:14

North Korean Airline "Air Koryo" uses many Soviet and Russian Aircraft ( Photos of N Korea is beautiful )

North Korea: The Reserve of Soviet civil aviation and simply interesting country

http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/148074.html

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 17 Nov 2015 00:27

Turkey is planning to have its own Regional Jet up in the air by 2019. More details here:

TRJet build Turkish Regional Jets

Sierra Nevada and its Turkish partner STM have established a new company to build updated versions of the Dornier 328 and 328Jet in Turkey.

TRJet will be based in Ankara and produce both models of the aircraft. It will also begin design and development of a new 60- 70-seat aircraft – dubbed TRJ628 – which is due to fly in 2023. This is in line with the Turkish government’s national regional jet program, launched by the Turkish Ministry of Transport, Maritime Affairs and Communications on May 28.

Under the current plan, the first Turkish-produced TRJ328 or T328 will fly in 2019.

Hopefully by 2019, Saras will be in service forget our own Regional Transport. If we had some how got the ball rolling on RTA (actually one step in the right direction was taken by NAL for the RTA program i.e. setting up a separate "entity". This entity called NCAD was actually accepting lateral candidates profiles as well. Due to program cancellation, NCAD was disbanded.), perhaps our first flight could have been around 2019-20.

sumsumne · Post by **sumsumne** » 17 Nov 2015 03:16

Wasn't a test flight of the Saras in a unfortunate crash??

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=ch ... aras+crash

Going by history of big projects of the NAL or DRDO, 2019-20 looks very unlikely

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 17 Nov 2015 06:55

The 2009 DGCA report on the Saras crash makes for some sad reading. Considering the multiple failures involved in the management of the program, NAL should do a lot of convincing before they are allowed to test fly the Saras again. There have been periodic blurbs in the news about the imminent restart of the Saras flight test program , but nothing has materialised to date. This was the news more than a year ago -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 612919.cms

My guess is that the ASTE is not convinced that the airplane is ready for the skies. The NAL directors report only mentions the Saras in passing once in the entire report with no details on the progress other than a perfunctory "Progress has been made". Certainly, the glacial progress, the past history and the seeming cold feet by ASTE does not bode well for the Saras.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 17 Nov 2015 07:01

sumsumne wrote:Wasn't a test flight of the Saras in a unfortunate crash??

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=ch ... aras+crash

Going by history of big projects of the NAL or DRDO, 2019-20 looks very unlikely

Saras was stopped as a technology demonstrator (or whatever you should call it) as there were no clients willing to buy it.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 17 Nov 2015 07:07

NCAD is dead in the water right now. There hasnt been a major push by the current GoI towards breathing some life into the NCAD either. The push from Min of Civil Aviation appears to be towards the low hanging fruit of improving air connectivity, FDI and encouraging MRO activities.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 17 Nov 2015 07:10

I believe the AF was willing to pick up a few. A featherweight like NAL has to bear in mind that a new comer has to prove its mettle before booking orders. Only a heavy weight like Boeing can book orders based on reputation alone.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 17 Nov 2015 07:20

ManjaM wrote:I believe the AF was willing to pick up a few. A featherweight like NAL has to bear in mind that a new comer has to prove its mettle before booking orders. Only a heavy weight like Boeing can book orders based on reputation alone.

Yes but there was and is a problem of funding- when no one wants it where are they going to get the funding and the airforce incidentally said NO at the time for project extension.It would have been upto the giovernment to fund it further. NAL can request but the Government h of the time has to fund. In fact there was a rrequest to design a 100 seater turboprop for short haul flights - again no funding (as turbo props are more efficient especially for low budget airliners).

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 17 Nov 2015 07:53

At the time of the crash, the project was funded enough to have 2 prototypes. Per the damning DGCA report PT2 crash happened due to poor oversight of the project , not due to insufficient funding. The project was not shelved at the time of the crash in 2009, rather all stake holders have since developed cold feet subsequent to the crash. I haven't read any details on what NAL has done to address the issues raised in the DGCA report, but whatever it is, it is clearly not enough to instill the confidence of ASTE in the Saras.
Every aircraft program has run out of money. Boeing still is behind on the 787, so is Airbus on the 380. Bombardier has almost sunk because of the Global twins and the C series, Hawker-Beech bankrupt, Lear85 scrapped etc etc. Every aircraft program runs out of money, most get the money needed to bring the aircraft to service. However, few programs will recover from where the Saras is right now.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Nov 2015 19:53

^^^ If I am not wrong ASTE will not test Saras but NFTC.

sumsumne · Post by **sumsumne** » 18 Nov 2015 04:14

I think India should focus on developing medium to large sub systems targeted at the aerospace industry.

That helps us build the necessary systems, work force and confidence before taking up aircraft development from scratch.

This should involve the private sector as well...looking at the way Mahindra Satyam is involved in Bombardier and Airbus development.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 18 Nov 2015 21:23

sumsumne wrote:I think India should focus on developing medium to large sub systems targeted at the aerospace industry.

That helps us build the necessary systems, work force and confidence before taking up aircraft development from scratch.

^+10. It would be a great starting point especially for Private enterprises who don't want to go all the way deep initially.

This should involve the private sector as well...looking at the way Mahindra Satyam is involved in Bombardier and Airbus development.

I would love to hear some specifics, if it can be shared in open source, about the above. From what I've heard, most of the engagement status included low value engineering work.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 21 Nov 2015 17:43

Government plans to put small towns like Salem, Kota, Jaisalmer on aviation map

While no names have been finalized, places such as Salem, Kota, Jaisalmer and even Purnea and Bhagalpur may see local players fly small aircraft under a new scheme being discussed by the aviation ministry.

While the ministry would leave it to operators to decide on the sectors that they want to fly, it is considering easier rules and lowest possible burden on carriers, such as doing away with the need to furnish bank guarantees.

At the same time, it is keen to ensure that the gains of connectivity are not confined to pockets of prosperity such as those in the South or West.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 26 Nov 2015 23:08

India may displace UK as 3rd largest aviation market by 2026: IATA

India is likely to become the third largest aviation market in the world displacing the UK by 2026, according to a forecast by global airlines grouping International Air Transport Association today.

Besides, the IATA expects India's air passenger traffic to grow to 378 million passengers by 2034 with 275 new passengers likely to be added during this period.

India has bounced back from a subdued 2014, and is seeing a strong increase in domestic frequencies, the forecast said.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 26 Nov 2015 23:11

3rd largest aviation market without producing any planes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Dec 2015 16:37

Bengaluru Int Airport: 2nd terminal in advanced stage of planning
Bengaluru, Dec 1, 2015, PTI:

Kempegowda International Airport, dh file photo
Work on the second runway and second terminal at the city's Kempegowda International Airport is in advanced stage of planning, a top state government official today said.

"The Bengaluru International Airport when it was constructed, the kind of growth that was projected was probably very, very understated...because the growth has been phenomenal, in fact, we are going to touch 18 million (passenger capacity) by year end, and it is growing very fast", Principal Secretary, Department of Infrastructure Development, Vandita Sharma said.

"All these are in advanced stages of planning, so we really need to cater to the flying population," she added.

"We have to now keep up the pace by providing all the facilities, well I can inform here that Bengaluru International Airport is trying to keep pace - the second runway work is starting now, and also the second terminal work is going to start very soon", she said.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2015 16:52

Zynda wrote:Turkey is planning to have its own Regional Jet up in the air by 2019. More details here:

TRJet build Turkish Regional Jets

Sierra Nevada and its Turkish partner STM have established a new company to build updated versions of the Dornier 328 and 328Jet in Turkey.

TRJet will be based in Ankara and produce both models of the aircraft. It will also begin design and development of a new 60- 70-seat aircraft – dubbed TRJ628 – which is due to fly in 2023. This is in line with the Turkish government’s national regional jet program, launched by the Turkish Ministry of Transport, Maritime Affairs and Communications on May 28.

Under the current plan, the first Turkish-produced TRJ328 or T328 will fly in 2019.

Hopefully by 2019, Saras will be in service forget our own Regional Transport. If we had some how got the ball rolling on RTA (actually one step in the right direction was taken by NAL for the RTA program i.e. setting up a separate "entity". This entity called NCAD was actually accepting lateral candidates profiles as well. Due to program cancellation, NCAD was disbanded.), perhaps our first flight could have been around 2019-20.

The Dornier 328 was offered to India decades ago when the company was in difficulties. They offered to sell the designs, plant and machinery at a throwaway price. vested interests sabotaged it then. We could have built the plane and moved up from there.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 02 Dec 2015 05:27

chetak wrote:The Dornier 328 was offered to India decades ago when the company was in difficulties. They offered to sell the designs, plant and machinery at a throwaway price. vested interests sabotaged it then. We could have built the plane and moved up from there.

When was this? And who were the vested interests?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2015 19:29

word on street is changi airport has won a govt to govt no bid deal to manage the ahmedabad and jaipur airports. fee yet to be decided.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 12 Dec 2015 21:05

Singha wrote:word on street is changi airport has won a govt to govt no bid deal to manage the ahmedabad and jaipur airports. fee yet to be decided.

I thought this was already reported. Saw some news report a few days back. But those were the days of Chennai floods didnt think too much of it as I had enough things to cope with. If you are unable to find a link, will try and post it.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 14 Dec 2015 08:25

I submitted my comments on NCAP-2015 to the ministry of Civil Aviation.
http://www.civilaviation.gov.in/revised ... olicy-2015

A whole paper can be written on General aviation and its relevance to Civil aviation in general, but tried to keep it succinct and simple. Comments below-

1. The stated Objectives of the NCAP-2015 are to "Promote the entire aviation sector chain: cargo, MRO, general aviation, aerospace manufacturing and skill development." (Ref NCAP-2015, Section 2.c.iv). However, the stated vision (Ref Section 3 "The policy"), makes no mention of General Aviation. I would request the Honorable Minister to clarify the mechanisms that are planned to improve the current condition of General Aviation in India.

2. Current serpentine rules make it close to impossible for aviation hobbyists and enthusiasts to purchase an aircraft for personal use.

3. Requirements for purchase of aircraft include obtaining a security clearance from DGCA. In a violation of the intent of insisting on security clearance, DGCA is refusing to provide clearances for any application for years thereby making it impossible for aviators to purchase an airplane.

4. One of the stated objectives of NCAP-2015 is to promote aerospace manufacturing(Ref Sec 2.c.iv). The intent has received emphasis under the "Make in India" drive to provide impetus to domestic manufacturing. It will be of interest to the Honorable Minister to know that there were 3 companies around Bangalore that were making General aviation aircrafts for domestic consumption and export. The companies are X-Air Rajahamsa, Zenith Aircrafts by Agni Aerosports Academy and finally Albatross Flying systems. Of these only Albatross Flying systems continues to be in operation. Both X-Air Rajahamsa and Agni Aerosports Academy have since gone out of business due to government import duties and severe prohibition of General Aviation by the DGCA. Therefore, the current regulatory environment is at odds with the intent of NCAP-2015.

5. Availability of hangars is briefly covered under Section 14 "Airports developed by State Govts, Private Sector or in PPP mode". Although the stated objective of NCAP-2015 is promotion of General Aviation, no mention is made of General Aviation in the section related to airport infrastructure. The policy states that "Operators of future airport projects will not levy airport charges, concession fee and royalties etc on MRO, cargo, ground handling, ATF infrastructureother than a reasonable lease rental.". However General aviation is left out of the list of activities that will enjoy exemption from airport charges. Availability of hangar space, repair and overhaul facilities and aviation fuel at reasonable costs is essential to promote General aviation. It is hoped that the Honorable Minister will clarify the policy in this regard.

6. General aviation is the back bone of a robust and healthy aviation sector. It has a multiplier effect in terms of employment and contribution to a large pool of skilled workers and pilots. General aviation, if promoted and overseen, will encourage the Prime Minsters' visino of Make in India as well as skill development. I urge the Honorable Minister to kindly review the functioning of DGCA with respect to General Aviation and ensure that its mandate includes promotion of General aviation. An example of the effect of General aviation on the economy can be seen by a study of the experience of post World War2 USA. The large pool of pilots as well as the liberal policies on airplane ownership and finally the availability of General aviation infrastructure provided the massive impetus that made it the Golden years of aviation.

IN SUMMARY-
1. NCAP-2015 does not list the steps that will be taken to rejuvenate General Aviation although promoting General Aviation is mentioned in the objectives.
2. Please ensure security licences ,for purchase of light aircraft for private use, is issued within a 3 month time scale. Lack of security clearances is killing domestic aircraft demand.
3. Multiple light aircraft manufacturers have closed their manufacturing operations due to lack of domestic demand as well as a unfavorable tax environment for import of essential manufacturing components.
4. Improve regulatory framework as well as infrastucture at small airports to encourage General aviation, the back bone of a healthy Aviation industry.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 16 Dec 2015 05:28

I spoke with a manufacturer of ultralights in Bangalore. IT is a bleak situation for anyone associated with aviation in India. Especially so for manufacturers of aircrafts. How many knew there were 3 companies manufacturing ultralights in India - X-Air Rajahamsa, Zenith Aircrafts and FlightStar Ultralights. Of these XAir and Zenith have shut shop due to non-existing domestic demand and high excise duties on imported goods making their business unprofitable. The excise duties affect the engines, avionics a lot of the aluminum tubing and in case of fabric wings, the fabric as well.

Under NCAP, Government wants to rejuvenate 100 of the dormant airports. It will be a tremendous boost to the aviation sector across the spectrum - manufacturing, FBO, MRO, flight training, tech training and indirect benefits to the local economies if a concerted effort is made to rejuvenate the General aviation segment and make some of these 100 airports available to general and sports aviation.

It is very disheartening to note that even the organisations such as AOPA India (Airplane Owners and Pilots Assocn), have little to no interest in advocating for the General Aviation sector! Most of their leadership in India is based outside of India!

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 16 Dec 2015 20:13

ManjaM wrote:I spoke with a manufacturer of ultralights in Bangalore.

Manja saar, are these light aircrafts designed in India or are they being manf in BLR based on an existing design? If they feel that their products are competitive, why not explore other markets like SE Asia etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese have made deep in roads in those markets anyway. Just saying...

You may know this better than I do, most flying schools/clubs in India use Cessna based product. A couple of NAL Hansa-3 was provided at a highly subsidized cost to Jakkur Flying Club but I am told they are gathering dust. Point is, with proper ecosystem i.e. supply & support, exporting these light aircrafts is doable. I reckon, an export license would be required which involves tons of paperwork & redtapism.

I feel overall, the situation in India for Aerospace is bleak. Outside of DRDO, things aren't very bright for any kind of indigenous design activities. Pvt companies, especially Engineering Services Companies still want to chase projects/clients outside of India. They would rather put their employees on bench than use those resources for some kind of product development.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 16 Dec 2015 22:01

Zynda wrote:
ManjaM wrote:I spoke with a manufacturer of ultralights in Bangalore.
Manja saar, are these light aircrafts designed in India or are they being manf in BLR based on an existing design? If they feel that their products are competitive, why not explore other markets like SE Asia etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese have made deep in roads in those markets anyway. Just saying...

You may know this better than I do, most flying schools/clubs in India use Cessna based product. A couple of NAL Hansa-3 was provided at a highly subsidized cost to Jakkur Flying Club but I am told they are gathering dust. Point is, with proper ecosystem i.e. supply & support, exporting these light aircrafts is doable. I reckon, an export license would be required which involves tons of paperwork & redtapism.

I feel overall, the situation in India for Aerospace is bleak. Outside of DRDO, things aren't very bright for any kind of indigenous design activities. Pvt companies, especially Engineering Services Companies still want to chase projects/clients outside of India. They would rather put their employees on bench than use those resources for some kind of product development.

All good questions Zynda.
1. XAir was designed and manufactured in Bengaluru. Zenith is a kit plane manufacturer, meaning one buys it and builds the airplane. X Air is closed, almost overnight, which is a shame because they have over 1000 ultralights and Light Sports flying all over the world! I was planning on buying an X-Air in massa because it was so cheap to buy and fly. With 1000 in the air, reliability is proven. I tried calling them and their lines are disconnected. Agni Aerosports was buying kits from Zenith US and building the airplanes. From what I found out, they have stopped doing so as it was becoming unprofitable. Another Bengaluru based company was building FlightStar Ultralights. The company itself sold out to a China based company where the kits are now made. The Indian supplier is limping along. In all 3 cases lack of domestic demand and high import duties have killed the profitability. The reason export is not working out as a model is because the most expensive and critical equipment in an airplane are all imported! The engine is almost always a Rotax or a Jabiru. The avionics are all imported, the fabric is too. Recently a supplier of Aluminum tubing closed down and now the Al tubes are imported as well. With 30% duties, there is no margin for exporting and making a profit.
2. Hansa was being made by Taneja. I have been trying to reach them for the last few days, but not much luck. I am not sure if they are still making Hansa, but if it priced well, I will be happy to buy it. To be honest, there is nothing ground breaking about the Hansa, its another trainer aircraft in a market full of trainers. BUT.., it is type certified in India which is a big deal in itself considering the short list of types certificated in India(http://www.dgca.nic.in/Type_Acceptance/ ... gories.htm)
3. The General Aviation (GA) segment in US has been on a long decline for 2 decades now. Cost of airplanes and fuel is the primary factor pushing pilots away. India still has a significant cost advantage when it comes to manufacturing. It will eventually close, but we need to leverage this advantage while we can. For example, XAir LSA model was offered for sale in US @ $60K which is a very good price point for that segment. The next factory built LSA is in the upper $70k range. However, with XAir closed we have no chance of selling to this market! This advantage has been negated by a very hostile regulatory climate and utter disregard for developing aviation infrastructure. I am hoping that eventually Mof Civ Aviation will model the DGCA on the lines of FAA and essentially create a Light Sport category in India. Without such aggressive moves by the government, GA is dead.
4. There is tremendous latent demand in India for airplanes priced between 12-15 lakhs. What is needed is the environment to cultivate this interest into a economically self sustaining system.

As a start, I would like to see the MofCA
1. make it a part of DGCA mandate to promote and regulate General aviation.
2. ask states to nominate 2 airports each which will be dedicated to GA, sports aviation and non scheduled activities. (akin to the smart City move)
3. Remove import duties altogether for import of aircraft engines, tooling, parts and avionics. This will be a huge impetus to GA as well as MRO.

Private industry needs to step up here. Heres what they can do-
1. Develop an GA engine for export
2. Aggressively go out and buy companies going out of business and move the entire plant over. there are plenty of business available. A Chinese investor bought the Mooney company for instance. Continental engines was bought by Chinese as well.
I have to add that in the current form FAA is not mandated to "promote" aviation, only regulate it. When i said DGCA needs to be modelled on the FAA, i am referring to the FAA of the old, a flexible, nimble organization that has an active interest in promotion of General aviation.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 17 Dec 2015 05:27

.

Air India technician died after getting sucked into the engine of Air India flight 619 that was to fly from Mumbai to Hyderabad on Wednesday.
The accident occurred at around 9 pm in the bay of T2 Terminal at Mumbai Airport.
"During the pusback, the co-pilot mistook a signal for engine start. As he switched on the engine, it sucked in the technician standing nearby," Air India sources said.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air- ... 49061.html

A simple solution would be install mobile go pro like Video cameras all around the aircraft while being serviced,and the pilot can see all around for clear view of the personnel working on the aircraft.

Can be done with app and pilot can se on his smart phone

Or a roll call before the engine starts of all techies assembled in a safe zone.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 17 Dec 2015 10:07

ManjaM wrote: 2. Hansa was being made by Taneja. I have been trying to reach them for the last few days, but not much luck. I am not sure if they are still making Hansa, but if it priced well, I will be happy to buy it. To be honest, there is nothing ground breaking about the Hansa, its another trainer aircraft in a market full of trainers. BUT.., it is type certified in India which is a big deal in itself considering the short list of types certificated in India(http://www.dgca.nic.in/Type_Acceptance/ ... gories.htm)

TAAL recently laid off a large number of employees around a few months ago. And they have diversified at least the engineering services arm. They now cater automobile & other industrial streams as well. Their manf is limping along. I heard a few years back they were providing components for ISRO & HAL etc., but off lately Taneja Aero has been blacklisted and thus being in the dumps. The source who told me this did not mention the reason for blacklist. Of course, he was one of the affected by lay offs and thus could be spewing venom on his former employer.

4. There is tremendous latent demand in India for airplanes priced between 12-15 lakhs.

Do you have anything sources to back this up? It will be useful to put a few small time companies I know who are trying to secure funding. A presence of market can at least make investors to consider GA more seriously.

Private industry needs to step up here. Heres what they can do-
1. Develop an GA engine for export
2. Aggressively go out and buy companies going out of business and move the entire plant over. there are plenty of business available. A Chinese investor bought the Mooney company for instance. Continental engines was bought by Chinese as well.
I have to add that in the current form FAA is not mandated to "promote" aviation, only regulate it. When i said DGCA needs to be modelled on the FAA, i am referring to the FAA of the old, a flexible, nimble organization that has an active interest in promotion of General aviation.

All good points saar. Without ecosystem, the takers will be very few. For ex: HAL Airport in BLR can be earmarked for GA/Flying clubs/non-commercial/defence operation. Earlier Jakkur Aerodrome hosted (& still does) flying schools but I read the construction of flyover has placed some restrictions on the ability to use both sides for operations.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 17 Dec 2015 10:37

X-Post fro Military Flight Safety Thread

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Slightly off topic but- Air India worker 'sucked into aircraft engine' in Mumbai. How the hell can something like this happen and be termed a mishap.

Speaks of abysmal work standards and processes.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Dec 2015 11:05

Spinster wrote:
.

Air India technician died after getting sucked into the engine of Air India flight 619 that was to fly from Mumbai to Hyderabad on Wednesday.
The accident occurred at around 9 pm in the bay of T2 Terminal at Mumbai Airport.
"During the pusback, the co-pilot mistook a signal for engine start. As he switched on the engine, it sucked in the technician standing nearby," Air India sources said.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air- ... 49061.html

A simple solution would be install mobile go pro like Video cameras all around the aircraft while being serviced,and the pilot can see all around for clear view of the personnel working on the aircraft.

Can be done with app and pilot can se on his smart phone

Or a roll call before the engine starts of all techies assembled in a safe zone.

there is normally a ground engineer who is usually connected to the cockpit via external wired intercom and he walks along with the aircraft that is being pushed back and is in constant communication with the pilots.

some major eff up seems to have occurred and the complete story is not yet out. An engine, during startup, does not produce enough suction to ingest a human unless that human was very very close to the engine and also was not in a position to see the blades start to spin.

There are already well set procedures in place but without prejudice, the more you try to idiot proof any procedure, a better idiot comes along to upset the apple cart.

The eff up is because someone did not follow the laid down procedures. Karma onlee.

Poor chap.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 17 Dec 2015 11:42

A similar incident happened in a commercial airport close to where I lived in Massa. One of the ground crew of a turboprop aircraft walks in to the blades when it was spinning and ended up him being painted on the sides of the aircraft. Apparently he was drunk like a skunk and yet turned up for work in the morning. Some of the passengers who were unlucky to witness the event had to undergo physiological counselling and the airline ended up paying for those costs.

As Chetak ji has mentioned, even with idiot proofing, a better idiot always finds a way.

Sad that this event happened.

Also the report on the NDTV website says that he was pulled in to the engine 4 minutes before the aircraft was scheduled to take off. I think what they meant was, 4 minutes before its scheduled departing time. 4 minutes before take off would probably put the aircraft in the taxi way.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Dec 2015 13:23

Zynda wrote:A similar incident happened in a commercial airport close to where I lived in Massa. One of the ground crew of a turboprop aircraft walks in to the blades when it was spinning and ended up him being painted on the sides of the aircraft. Apparently he was drunk like a skunk and yet turned up for work in the morning. Some of the passengers who were unlucky to witness the event had to undergo physiological counselling and the airline ended up paying for those costs.

As Chetak ji has mentioned, even with idiot proofing, a better idiot always finds a way.

Sad that this event happened.

Also the report on the NDTV website says that he was pulled in to the engine 4 minutes before the aircraft was scheduled to take off. I think what they meant was, 4 minutes before its scheduled departing time. 4 minutes before take off would probably put the aircraft in the taxi way.

getting sucked into engines is far, far more common that most people think.

there are plenty of examples, videos of many past events and unfortunately there will be many more reports/videos of events yet to come.

per usual practice, one engine is started and set to ground idle. This is to make use the air/GPU starting facility. the second engine is normally started during/after push back.

unfortunately I was a witness to a ghastly incident where a prop chopped off the arse of a senior technician who ought to have known better.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 18 Dec 2015 07:35

Zynda wrote:
ManjaM wrote:I spoke with a manufacturer of ultralights in Bangalore.
A couple of NAL Hansa-3 was provided at a highly subsidized cost to Jakkur Flying Club but I am told they are gathering dust.

The performance of Hansa-3 is suboptimal. It has an empty weight of 550kgs and an all up weight of 750kgs. Since it is marketed as a trainer, it will carry 2 persons most times. Each weighing 75kgs, you have only 50kgs left for fuel and baggage. It is difficult to convince an instructor to take off with a student at max gross weight!
Fuel consumption on the Rotax 914 is about 25 liters / hour which gives it an endurance of 3 hours with half hour reserve, but the brochure claims endurance to be 44 hours

. I am sure they meant 4 hours. http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/hansa.pdf
I am not sure what advantage has been gleaned by making it out of composites, because every performance aspect of this airplane is sub par compared to Aluminum counterparts such as the Piper Tomahawk or Cessna 152. However, I await the specs of Hansa 4 supposedly with a 230hp Diesel engine. I suppose quite a few papers will be published by NAL whether the Hansa4 is a commercial success or not.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Dec 2015 12:12

Spinster wrote:
.

Air India technician died after getting sucked into the engine of Air India flight 619 that was to fly from Mumbai to Hyderabad on Wednesday.
The accident occurred at around 9 pm in the bay of T2 Terminal at Mumbai Airport.
"During the pusback, the co-pilot mistook a signal for engine start. As he switched on the engine, it sucked in the technician standing nearby," Air India sources said.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air- ... 49061.html

A simple solution would be install mobile go pro like Video cameras all around the aircraft while being serviced,and the pilot can see all around for clear view of the personnel working on the aircraft.

Can be done with app and pilot can se on his smart phone

Or a roll call before the engine starts of all techies assembled in a safe zone.

The techie who died was at his mandated station. The current procedures are good enough, if followed religiously and completely, without any hero giri or shortcuts.

this is the clearest picture to emerge so far.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/dep ... eTeBJ.html

Nevertheless, over 24 hours after the accident, a few details of the incident have emerged. An email titled ‘A black day in the history of Indian aviation’, sent by a Mumbai maintenance manager of IndiGo to his colleagues, pointed to several lapses as well as instances of non-adherence to the standard operating procedure (SoP).
“After pushback, the technician instructed the helper to remove the tow bar. The helper removed the tow bar and, in all this time, the technician was facing the tow truck with his back to the engine. In the meantime, captain got taxi clearance from ATC and he was informed by co-pilot that aircraft was clear.
The technician still on headset and with his back still facing the engines, aircraft started to move with both engines on (sic). With no chocks placed, the aircraft started moving and sucked the technician. The helper… immediately sat down and got saved,” he wrote.
The mail went on to say that the aircraft maintenance engineer (AME), the final authority for signing off the aircraft, was not present at the spot. IndiGo did not comment on the email.
Safety experts also blamed the negligence of the officials concerned for the incident. “How can the AME not be present? Who signed the tech-log prior to flight departure? The AME has to be present on the ground, near the vicinity of the aircraft when it is being pushed back,” said a safety expert on the condition of anonymity.
“It is the AME who coordinates between the pilot and the technician when the aircraft is being pulled back. A technician is not responsible for the departure of an aircraft. If the AME was present, he could have alerted the pilots or the technician,” he added.
The role of the captain and the co-pilot, both of whom have been grounded, has also come under the scanner. “The pilots have to ensure that both the left and right sides of the aircraft are clear before they release the parking brake and taxi out. If the processes aren’t followed, it amounts to criminal negligence. Complacency and overconfidence can result in dire consequences,” said an official.