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Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 10 Aug 2017 22:03

Interesting article about future of Turbofans.

Turbofans Are Not Finished Yet

^^Needs registration to access the full article.

Just posting snippets:

PROPULSION PATHS
>> 15-20% improvement in turbofan operating efficiency still possible
>> Remaining potential turbofan improvements equal to first 60 years of jet development
>> Advanced low-pressure-ratio fan tested on Pratt & Whitney geared turbofan
>> Safran ground-testing open rotor as potential path forward
>> GE focusing on thermodynamic boosts through CMC and advanced cycles
>> Rolls-Royce targeting 60:1 pressure ratios and geared architectures

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Aug 2017 05:41

I assume Civil Aviation icludes our esteemed Air India.

"because if a decision on Air India (stake sale) is taken, I hope this company also doesn’t go to some other party. Any business that is profitable should be encouraged by the government,” Gadkari said.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... RC6CP.html

So the plan is to sucker in idiots who have more money than brains to invest in the money losing parts of Air India, acquire it at a profit for the government and offset the years of losses under its 'management'.

Interesting plan. Some might say audacious. Others might say stupid. All will say when hell freezes over.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2017 13:11

as the national carrier I would say the value of AI lies in its guaranteed landing slots in the nations busiest airports (for a domestic buyer) and its guaranteed rights to fly into a number of foreign hubs with tight slot supply under reciprocity clauses (for a foreign buyer picking up a stake).
a large part of its fleet the A320 are now 30 years old. the 787 some are purchased some were purchased then sold and leased back to save on opex.
its international fleet is a mix of 20 year of 747 and some newer 777 which be of some use. its technical people and pilots are useful. it has a large ownership of hangers and aprons in mumbai.

its not a bad asset to acquire except for its accumulated losses. so more than its fleet or current routes, its strategic pindi type position as a national carrier and legal rent seeking rights is the value to unlock :D

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Malayappan » 18 Aug 2017 15:57

One more round of new airline / aircraft/ services, this time in Rajasthan -

New Jaipur-Kota flight to start from Friday; to be connected with Delhi soon

The airline is Supreme Airlines. Seems to be operating with one Cessna aircraft, with Jaipur as the hub. website: https://supremeairlines.com/

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 16:25

Malayappan wrote:One more round of new airline / aircraft/ services, this time in Rajasthan -

New Jaipur-Kota flight to start from Friday; to be connected with Delhi soon

The airline is Supreme Airlines. Seems to be operating with one Cessna aircraft, with Jaipur as the hub. website: https://supremeairlines.com/


This is Intra State, state subsidised, single engine aircraft operations. Supreme is a non scheduled permit holder (not an Airline) and the states are letting these operate using Single Engine Aircraft like the Cessna Caravan. There are similar operations in MP, Gujarat etc. This is against the existing rules

However at the central level under RCS, Single Engine's are not permitted and repeated representations have been made to DGCA for permitting such aircraft for flights on low density routes specially from underserved or unserved airports. DGCA has asked for at least a year and half to come up with a rule change if possible on this.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby jayasimha » 21 Aug 2017 14:48

Performance of domestic airlines for the year 2017.
Traffic data submitted by various domestic airlines has been analysed for the
month of July 2017
http://pibphoto.nic.in/documents/rlink/ ... 782101.pdf

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 09 Sep 2017 18:57

This represents an another possible massive mergers among a major consolidation drive in Aerospace business. Posting excerpts...

United Technologies To Pay $30 Billion For Rockwell Collins

United Technologies Corp.’s proposed $30 billion acquisition of Rockwell Collins will create an unparalleled aerospace supplier, marrying the latter’s avionics and cabin interiors business with UTC Aerospace Systems, and with engine maker Pratt & Whitney not far apart.

The late-Sept. 4 announcement by both companies that Farmington, Connecticut-based UTC would buy Cedar Rapids, Iowa-based Rockwell caps nearly a month of open speculation that the companies would merge to create a super-Tier One provider, dominating the Western aerospace supply chain from engines to cockpits and everything in between.


MAKING A SUPER TIER ONE
> New business unit to be called Collins Aerospace Systems
> New, enlarged UTC sees $67-68 billion annual sales
> Executives see $500 million savings a year by early 2020s


Assuming the deal closes successfully, the new UTC should have global sales of around $67-68 billion on a pro-forma 2017 basis. That is roughly two-thirds the sales of original equipment manufacturer (OEM) Boeing, their predominant customer.


UTC expects the combination will be accretive, or positive, to its adjusted earnings per share after the first full year following closing. Executives said they expect to gain an estimated $500 million of run-rate pre-tax cost synergies or cost savings by the fourth year. Details of how to achieve those savings – such as through layoffs, facility closures or product and sales changes – were not provided in the Labor Day statement announcing the deal.


There also has been speculation over whether Boeing would try to fight a UTC-Rockwell Collins tie-up. Resistance by Boeing and Airbus was seen as one factor inhibiting a proposed merger of UTC and Honeywell last year – OEMs might have been able to effectively stop a deal by not allowing their contracts to transfer to another corporate entity.


Image

Apparently a comment from Boeing (don't have source on this one...)
“We intend to take a hard look at the proposed combination of United Technologies and Rockwell Collins. Until we receive more details, we are skeptical that it would be in the best interest of—or add value to—our customers and industry. Our interests and those of our customers, employees, other suppliers and shareholders are in ensuring the long-term health and competitiveness of the aerospace industry supply chain. Should we determine that this deal is inconsistent with those interests, we would intend to exercise our contractual rights and pursue the appropriate regulatory options to protect our interests. Also, both companies are significant suppliers to Boeing and other OEMs, and at a time of record industry production, their first priority should be delivering on existing cost, schedule and quality commitments for their customers and ours.”


All these consolidation are killing competition and from an employee perspective...less opportunities. It is very very hard to switch industries after 10-15 years of experience (forget 20 plus...unless one is in upper level management) and any individual affected by lay-off will be hard pressed to find suitable employment. A&D (any core industries for that matter) is not like IT where one can probably jump to an upcoming start up with relative ease.

On the +ve front, UTC has quite a significant presence in India through their facility in BLR and there *may* be more software/E&C opportunities through outsourcing. from Rockwell's commercial arm division. For existing employees of RC at US...I am afraid there will be thousands of lay-offs.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 15 Sep 2017 21:15

VIdeo linked on NAL's website (machine read of some news article I think). Says Saras to fly in first week of October.



PS: Here it the article from Hindu:

http://www.icast.org.in/news/2017/sep17/sep11TH.pdf

Taxi trials already started - 5 trials of 45min each finished.
First flight in Oct 1st week.
25 flight tests planned
More than 10 mods done after the Crash
The final Saras is planned to be able to cover 1,600 km at a maximum speed of 425 kmph, have a service ceiling of 9-10 km and fly continuously for five hours.
Design configuration slated to be frozen by March 2018
Certification flights to start by 2019 end
Production from 2020 from HAL Kanpur
500Cr spent so far, more 500-600Cr needed.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 18 Sep 2017 19:16

India’s First 19-seater aircraft may fly soon.

A team of engineers is giving shape to what promises to be India’s first 19-seater indigenous passenger aircraft at a 3,000-sq feet terrace in Mumbai’s Borivili suburb, which has become a bustle of activity. Amol Yadav, a pilot with a private airline, is leading the initiative.

TAC 005, as the aircraft is called, will be ready for flight in the next four months, and is likely to give shape to India’s dream of a homegrown passenger aircraft.

Yadav said that he began work on the 19-seater aircraft to solve India’s regional connectivity issues. “In spite of having a number of private airlines, we are poor in regional connectivity. The smallest aircraft that private airlines in India have are 70-seaters, and they don’t find it cost-effective to fly them to smaller cities as they are never full.”

Yadav’s 19-seater aircraft is likely to change that situation by giving airlines and people an option of flying in a smaller plane. India hasn’t beeen able to build its own passenger aircraft even 70 years after independence. The National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) had tried to build Saras, a 14-seater aircraft, but the plan had to be abandoned after the prototype crashed in 2009. NAL has recently revived the programme.

The structure of the twin-engine turbo prop built by Yadav — ET had exclusive access to the aircraft — is ready and will be powered by a Pratt & Whitney PP6A engine.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby komal » 18 Sep 2017 19:37

How can it be called "indigenous" if the engines are imported?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2017 22:12

well then is the J20 or Y20 indigenous?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 18 Sep 2017 22:39

The news of Saras made my day. A new set of engineers and scientist will start getting trained again. Hopefully, this time it is sustained.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2017 23:58

Indranil wrote:The news of Saras made my day. A new set of engineers and scientist will start getting trained again. Hopefully, this time it is sustained.


NAL should not be developing aircrafts like this, may be experimental ones are fine. We have all our priorities wrong. I hope Saras is off-loaded to a private company soon. If GOI has some vision they can put Saras and UDAN together and help kickstart pvt civilian aircraft industry. Its a very manageable program for newbie company.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 19 Sep 2017 00:47

Indranil wrote:The news of Saras made my day. A new set of engineers and scientist will start getting trained again. Hopefully, this time it is sustained.

Hopefully IR. But have you heard of any new recruitments going on in NAL? I haven't...I know yearly, there is a DRDO SET exam (perhaps it is called something else currently) but I am not sure if CSIR/NAL recruitment comes under the above.

Not saying there is a resource crunch but I believe like JayS mentioned, it would be good if the work of Saras is offloaded to a several Pvt companies with NAL acting as a consultant. Need wider dissemination of the above training among different companies/institutions.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Sep 2017 01:24

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:The news of Saras made my day. A new set of engineers and scientist will start getting trained again. Hopefully, this time it is sustained.


NAL should not be developing aircrafts like this, may be experimental ones are fine. We have all our priorities wrong. I hope Saras is off-loaded to a private company soon. If GOI has some vision they can put Saras and UDAN together and help kickstart pvt civilian aircraft industry. Its a very manageable program for newbie company.

Which private sector other than Mahindra is even trying? They won't invest without solid market. 15 aircrafts is the hearsay order till now

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Sep 2017 01:34

Zynda wrote:
Indranil wrote:The news of Saras made my day. A new set of engineers and scientist will start getting trained again. Hopefully, this time it is sustained.

Hopefully IR. But have you heard of any new recruitments going on in NAL? I haven't...I know yearly, there is a DRDO SET exam (perhaps it is called something else currently) but I am not sure if CSIR/NAL recruitment comes under the above.

Not saying there is a resource crunch but I believe like JayS mentioned, it would be good if the work of Saras is offloaded to a several Pvt companies with NAL acting as a consultant. Need wider dissemination of the above training among different companies/institutions.


SET has not been conducted since 2009. DRDO recruitments are rare in last 8yrs. I saw only two significant ones in so many years. One of which was only for freshies.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Sep 2017 01:53

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:
NAL should not be developing aircrafts like this, may be experimental ones are fine. We have all our priorities wrong. I hope Saras is off-loaded to a private company soon. If GOI has some vision they can put Saras and UDAN together and help kickstart pvt civilian aircraft industry. Its a very manageable program for newbie company.

Which private sector other than Mahindra is even trying? They won't invest without solid market. 15 aircrafts is the hearsay order till now


So I put "If GOI has some vision.."

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 19 Sep 2017 13:07

JayS wrote:SET has not been conducted since 2009. DRDO recruitments are rare in last 8yrs. I saw only two significant ones in so many years. One of which was only for freshies.

Holy moly...close to 10 years without any fresh intake of resources. One can only hope that they are slowly outsourcing many of the activities to outside enterprises and thus no need for replenishments.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Sep 2017 15:52

Zynda wrote:
JayS wrote:SET has not been conducted since 2009. DRDO recruitments are rare in last 8yrs. I saw only two significant ones in so many years. One of which was only for freshies.

Holy moly...close to 10 years without any fresh intake of resources. One can only hope that they are slowly outsourcing many of the activities to outside enterprises and thus no need for replenishments.


I read an article in 2014 that DRDO is short of some 2000+ scientists. I was hoping BJP government will restart the "ban" on DRDO postings. DRDO is a kind of organization which needs highly trained manpower and it needs to retain it for a long term. Outsourcing the way they do for projects like AMCA, GTRE is a bad idea. The skills are eroded very easily. And there is no consolidation of expertise. I have interviewed people working in ADA/GTRE/ADE etc on contract jobs for a years or two. Despite working on very good projects their basic understanding remains sub-standard, let alone understanding of the systems they have worked on. It neither helps achieve target of dissemination of skills in private industry nor it add much value to DRDO's manpower in much significant way. Plus the kind of salary they offer for contract workers, they can only get freshies in that. So no infusion new things from outside. Very bad thing for an organization.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 28 Sep 2017 03:54

New Delhi airport moves up 4 spots for year to date traffic, to world's 17th busiest airport, up from 21st:
World airport traffic August 2017
New Delhi is now busier than well known airports like Madrid, Las Vegas and New York JFK. It's also the only airport in the top 30 registering double digit annual growth rate.

Interestingly, the data above suggests Delhi's data is only upto May 2017, while almost all others above it are up to June. Adding 5m for Delhi to account for June, Delhi almost makes the top 10 with ~30M passengers. That would make it bigger than Seoul, Bangkok, Frankfurt and perhaps Singapore.

DEL had 56M passengers last year, and is on track for 15% growth this year to 64M passengers for the full year - close to top 10.

DEL is the fastest growing airport in the >40M category, while BLR is the fastest in the 15-40M category:
Bengaluru, Delhi top air traffic growth in 2016
Image

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby sameerp » 28 Sep 2017 09:48

So Bombardier is having troubles with selling C Series jets in the US due to a subsidy dispute with Boeing as the Quebec provincial government has taken an equity stake in the company to help with development costs of the new jet. The US government has imposed a 220% tax on jets sold in the US virtually shutting off the US market to these jets. Should India be looking at an equity investment in the company and leverage the technology for Make in India and help develop civilian jets in India ?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 28 Sep 2017 11:09

sameerp wrote:So Bombardier is having troubles with selling C Series jets in the US due to a subsidy dispute with Boeing as the Quebec provincial government has taken an equity stake in the company to help with development costs of the new jet. The US government has imposed a 220% tax on jets sold in the US virtually shutting off the US market to these jets. Should India be looking at an equity investment in the company and leverage the technology for Make in India and help develop civilian jets in India ?


I heard/read somewhere that Chinese are eyeing BA. No reason why India shouldn't.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 28 Sep 2017 12:00

The Chinese were eyeing a stake in BA...but Canadian Govt cancelled the deal in the name of strategic reasons (I am sure such a move wouldn't have happened if the bidder is from a Western nation block instead of Chinese) and Quebec Govt infused cash in to BA to help C-Series production pain points. I am not sure how an Indian bidder would be looked...but no harm in trying.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 07 Oct 2017 00:01

SpiceJet has signed an MoU with with Japan's Setouchi Holdings to buy up to 100 Qwest Kodiaks (amphibian and otherwise) for regional connectivity. They are hoping for loans from Japan's bank similar to those for the HSR project.

How I wish they were for GA-10s built by Mahindra. Mahindra's financial arm could have helped IMHO. Oh well!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 12 Oct 2017 03:18

Red tape kills Mumbai pilot's dream to build India's first 19-seater aircraft.

An Indian pilot’s quest to fly an aircraft that he built on the rooftop of his house has become so entangled in red tape that after waiting for almost six years for approvals – even with the involvement of the Prime Minister’s Officethe frustrated aviator is preparing to head to the US with the project.

Amol Yadav, a pilot with a private airline who lives in Mumbai, thought he had everything going for his dream. He built a six-seater aircraft, which was featured in the government’s ‘Make in India’ programme, on the terrace of his Charkop home. He had the backing of the Maharashtra government, which, impressed with his efforts, offered him land and funds to build 19-seater planes. Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis had even apprised Prime Minister Narendra Modi about the project.

Amol Yadav, a pilot with a private airline who lives in Mumbai, thought he had everything going for his dream. He built a six-seater aircraft, which was featured in the government’s ‘Make in India’ programme, on the terrace of his Charkop home. He had the backing of the Maharashtra government, which, impressed with his efforts, offered him land and funds to build 19-seater planes. Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis had even apprised Prime Minister Narendra Modi about the project.

Yadav is now on the verge of completing his 19-seater aircraft, which would be the first to be built indigenously. That’s something the National Aerospace Laboratories hasn’t been able to achieve even after working for several years and sinking in crores of rupees.

Yet with his prototype a few months away from completion, Yadav is exasperated. His six-seater plane hasn’t taken off, which means his 19-seater aircraft project will be held up. All his efforts have been throttled by regulatory hurdles.

While the Maharashtra government has tied up with Yadav and plans to allot him land, it firsts wants a demonstration of the six-seater in flight. However, the aviation regulator has consistently refused to register Yadav’s aircraft over the years, effectively denying him the ability to demonstrate it can fly. Directorate General of Civil Aviation, according to the Maharashtra government, has created road blocks for the project even after the PMO put in a word.

Not surprisingly, Yadav is disillusioned, especially in the context of the government’s attempts to make doing business in the country easier and the ‘Make in India’ programme, aimed at encouraging local manufacturing and increasing jobs.

“I felt very encouraged by ‘ease of doing business’ and the ‘Make in India’ initiative by Prime Minister Narendra Modi,” said Yadav. “However, I have realised that while the PM may be passionate about these initiatives, for the rest of the bureaucr ..

After he applied to register his six-seater plane under the experimental aircraft category in 2011, DGCA kept dilly-dallying. In 2014, the regulator scrapped the experimental aircraft clause, would have enabled amateurs to build planes, from the Civil Aviation Requirements (CAR), a set of regulations for the sector. The new rules allow only planes manufactured by companies to fly.

To resolve the issue, Fadnavis met Modi on April 14 in Nagpur and briefed him about Yadav’s aircraft. Following the discussions, the chief minister wrote to the PM about Yadav’s application pending with the DGCA. “He followed up regularly only to know that in July 2014, DGCA arbitrarily deleted this entire set of regulations making it impossible for anyone building experimental aircraft to apply for the same. It is not known why such a step was taken,” Fadnavis wrote.

Fadnavis met Modi again in New Delhi in the last week of April, following which Sanjeev Kumar Singla, the PM’s private secretary, was called in and asked to get involved with the DGCA. Still, the DGCA refused to budge. In fact, the regulator uploaded a new draft CAR on August 28 with provisions that would ensure that no one in the country could hope to build an experimental aircraft.

One revised provision stipulates the maximum weight of a new aircraft should not exceed 1,500 kg, just below the 1,600 kg Yadav mentioned in his application. This is unusual because in countries that encourage aircraft manufacturing such as the US, there are no weight restrictions. The DGCA also states in several places that aircraft should be built as per minimum standards, without specifying what those norms are.

ET sent Singla two detailed questionnaires regarding the status of Yadav’s application, which he forwarded to DGCA for a response. DGCA joint director general Lalit Gupta contacted this reporter on September 26, saying he was calling to respond to the questionnaires sent to Singla. ET tried to get in touch with JM Thakkar, public relations officer in the PMO, seeking Singla’s comments.

However, there has been no response. ET sent DGCA 17 questions related to the matter, including one on why it scrapped the provision for approval of experimental aircraft. The regulator did not answer most of the queries and said it was only following the rules of the International Civil Aviation Organization, a UN agency. ET checked the ICAO rules, which don’t ask any member country to deny registration to anyone building an aircraft.

DGCA told ET it is in touch with Yadav and other stakeholders to frame a new CAR. However, Yadav said that the DGCA, in discussions with him, reiterated that his aircraft would not be permitted to fly.

Now, Yadav has approached the US Federal Aviation Authority to register his aircraft there.

“I wanted my aircraft to have an India registration, but in our country innovation is considered to be a crime. So I am arranging for funds to take my aircraft to the US to get registered there. The whole process takes less than a month, compared to the six years that I have wasted here,” said Yadav.

I I am giving myself a month’s time if I am not able to get funds, then I invite the people of Mumbai to a unique funeral where I will take my six-seater aircraft to Bandra Kurla Complex, where it was first showcased during the ‘Make in India’ week, and then take a hammer and break it down because our country doesn’t like to encourage enterprise by the common man,” said Yadav.

An indigenous 19-seater plane such as the one that pilot Amol Yadav built, would be a boost for India’s aircraft manufacturing industry and help create jobs in the sector. Such aircraft would promote boost regional connectivity and airlines would find it viable to fly them to smaller airports instead of deploying 40- or 70- seater planes that are harder to fill for such destinations. More flights to smaller cities would in turn promote tourism in these areas. Such planes are also useful as private and business charter aircraft, which are used by wealthy individuals and companies.

The Obduracy of the bureaucrats is simply breath-taking. To set an example, All the Bureaucrats involved in trying to kill this project should be crushed under a Battle Tank in a public square - Nothing less will do.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Malayappan » 12 Oct 2017 08:32

UDAN routes ink massive 75 pct PLM
An update on the UDAN scheme. Some interesting numbers! Good!

load factor on the Chennai to Mysore routes is around 75%, while the same on the Hyderabad to Nanded route registers 67% on average. The occupancy levels on the Hyderabad to Kadappa route is around 65%

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 15 Oct 2017 21:51



before we condemn our babus, I'm not sure if a technologically sound and safe aircraft can be built on someone's terrace. I doubt the journalist
has the slightest idea what is takes to build an aircraft.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 15 Oct 2017 22:04

Malayappan wrote:UDAN routes ink massive 75 pct PLM
An update on the UDAN scheme. Some interesting numbers! Good!

load factor on the Chennai to Mysore routes is around 75%, while the same on the Hyderabad to Nanded route registers 67% on average. The occupancy levels on the Hyderabad to Kadappa route is around 65%


The problem with UDAN is that for most small airports sought to be connected by UDAN, the only 3 airports that provide viable connections
are: Mumbai, Delhi & the State capital.
For the flight to the state capital to be viable, the distance has to be 350+ km.

There are a few exceptions (e.g. Bangalore-Tirupati or Pondicherry for tourist traffic), or as the article suggests, Hyd-Nanded (which is almost
entirely Sikh pilgrims).
The biggest constraint to UDAN is lack of slots at Mumbai and Delhi. They are saturated.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby amol » 15 Oct 2017 22:18

Malayappan wrote:UDAN routes ink massive 75 pct PLM
An update on the UDAN scheme. Some interesting numbers! Good!

load factor on the Chennai to Mysore routes is around 75%, while the same on the Hyderabad to Nanded route registers 67% on average. The occupancy levels on the Hyderabad to Kadappa route is around 65%


Was eagerly waiting for the flights to Nashik that were supposed to start in September. September has come and gone with no word. In fact, there was news of a test flight from Mumbail to Shirdi, but nothing about Nashik. I guess my 2 decade long wait will continue. Mumbai-Nashik was not a well thought out decision in any case, but Pune-Nashik should have been profitable.

Oh well...

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vips » 16 Oct 2017 04:23

IIRC Nashil has a runway capable of handling double aisle wide body aircrafts. It is such a shame a that it is not even used or a listed as a an alternative airport for diverting flights in case of any issue at Mumbai. Pune having capacity constraints cannot be used and flyers have to face the ridiculous prospect of travelling back from far away places like Ahmedabad and Hyderabad. What a huge waste of National resources.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 16 Oct 2017 09:14

Vips wrote:IIRC Nashil has a runway capable of handling double aisle wide body aircrafts. It is such a shame a that it is not even used or a listed as a an alternative airport for diverting flights in case of any issue at Mumbai. Pune having capacity constraints cannot be used and flyers have to face the ridiculous prospect of travelling back from far away places like Ahmedabad and Hyderabad. What a huge waste of National resources.


Yes, Nashik has one of the longest runways in the country with a modern terminal. It can and should be the alternate airport for Mumbai and Pune. Pune has constraints for operating hours as it is an IAF base - as is Nashik, but Nashik is more flexible as it has fewer aircraft movements.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby kvraghav » 16 Oct 2017 11:24

They should explore bangalore mysore chennai route. Mysore to bangalore by road takes 6 hrs on sunday evening.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 16 Oct 2017 12:23

Deans wrote:
Malayappan wrote:UDAN routes ink massive 75 pct PLM
An update on the UDAN scheme. Some interesting numbers! Good!



The problem with UDAN is that for most small airports sought to be connected by UDAN, the only 3 airports that provide viable connections
are: Mumbai, Delhi & the State capital.
For the flight to the state capital to be viable, the distance has to be 350+ km.

There are a few exceptions (e.g. Bangalore-Tirupati or Pondicherry for tourist traffic), or as the article suggests, Hyd-Nanded (which is almost
entirely Sikh pilgrims).
The biggest constraint to UDAN is lack of slots at Mumbai and Delhi. They are saturated.


2nd round bidding of Udaan has reduced the minimum stage length.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby deejay » 16 Oct 2017 12:25

Vips wrote:IIRC Nashil has a runway capable of handling double aisle wide body aircrafts. It is such a shame a that it is not even used or a listed as a an alternative airport for diverting flights in case of any issue at Mumbai. Pune having capacity constraints cannot be used and flyers have to face the ridiculous prospect of travelling back from far away places like Ahmedabad and Hyderabad. What a huge waste of National resources.


Diversion airport should have a minimum ILS and 24 hour watch. Else, it is better to divert to Ahmadabad from Mumbai.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 16 Oct 2017 13:12

Deans wrote:
Vips wrote:IIRC Nashil has a runway capable of handling double aisle wide body aircrafts. It is such a shame a that it is not even used or a listed as a an alternative airport for diverting flights in case of any issue at Mumbai. Pune having capacity constraints cannot be used and flyers have to face the ridiculous prospect of travelling back from far away places like Ahmedabad and Hyderabad. What a huge waste of National resources.


Yes, Nashik has one of the longest runways in the country with a modern terminal. It can and should be the alternate airport for Mumbai and Pune. Pune has constraints for operating hours as it is an IAF base - as is Nashik, but Nashik is more flexible as it has fewer aircraft movements.


Can you elaborate more on what you think can be done with Nashik airport..?

There has been many attempts to kick-start regular flying from Nashik since 1970s AFAIK. But it never got off. One reason is no real local demand. For it to act as proper alternate to Mumbai or Pune airport, we need a high speed connectivity between Nashik-Mumbai and Nashik-Pune. There was I think an initiative of MH government on developing the "Golden Triangle" between Nashik-Pune-Mumbai, but nothing seems to have come out of it. Otherwise only real alternative it can give is as a transit hub for domestic locations. But for that GOI-MHG needs to develop it as a hub along with connecting routes being developed simultaneously. This is my understanding. Looks doable, in long term. But we need long term integrated plan for it.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby amol » 16 Oct 2017 18:22

JayS wrote:
Deans wrote:
Yes, Nashik has one of the longest runways in the country with a modern terminal. It can and should be the alternate airport for Mumbai and Pune. Pune has constraints for operating hours as it is an IAF base - as is Nashik, but Nashik is more flexible as it has fewer aircraft movements.


Can you elaborate more on what you think can be done with Nashik airport..?

There has been many attempts to kick-start regular flying from Nashik since 1970s AFAIK. But it never got off. One reason is no real local demand. For it to act as proper alternate to Mumbai or Pune airport, we need a high speed connectivity between Nashik-Mumbai and Nashik-Pune. There was I think an initiative of MH government on developing the "Golden Triangle" between Nashik-Pune-Mumbai, but nothing seems to have come out of it. Otherwise only real alternative it can give is as a transit hub for domestic locations. But for that GOI-MHG needs to develop it as a hub along with connecting routes being developed simultaneously. This is my understanding. Looks doable, in long term. But we need long term integrated plan for it.


The flights almost always try to connect Nashik to Mumbai. This leg is doomed to fail. Instead, if they provide hopping flights to various inland destinations like Nagpur, Indore etc, there will be steady demand. Also, due to the location of HAL, the Arty School and the Security & Currency Note press, there should be a steady flow of government/defence passengers to and from Delhi.

Another idea would be to link major pilgrimage spots.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 16 Oct 2017 23:31

deejay wrote:
Vips wrote:IIRC Nashil has a runway capable of handling double aisle wide body aircrafts. It is such a shame a that it is not even used or a listed as a an alternative airport for diverting flights in case of any issue at Mumbai. Pune having capacity constraints cannot be used and flyers have to face the ridiculous prospect of travelling back from far away places like Ahmedabad and Hyderabad. What a huge waste of National resources.


Diversion airport should have a minimum ILS and 24 hour watch. Else, it is better to divert to Ahmadabad from Mumbai.


Pune in theory is 24 hours, but in reality, IAF restricts the hours of operation for civil traffic.
Ozhar in Nashik does not have ILS but Shirdi does.
Last edited by Deans on 16 Oct 2017 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 16 Oct 2017 23:42

JayS wrote:[
Can you elaborate more on what you think can be done with Nashik airport..?

There has been many attempts to kick-start regular flying from Nashik since 1970s AFAIK. But it never got off. One reason is no real local demand. For it to act as proper alternate to Mumbai or Pune airport, we need a high speed connectivity between Nashik-Mumbai and Nashik-Pune. There was I think an initiative of MH government on developing the "Golden Triangle" between Nashik-Pune-Mumbai, but nothing seems to have come out of it. Otherwise only real alternative it can give is as a transit hub for domestic locations. But for that GOI-MHG needs to develop it as a hub along with connecting routes being developed simultaneously. This is my understanding. Looks doable, in long term. But we need long term integrated plan for it.


There are actually 3 exiting/ proposed airports in the Nashik area:
Gandhinagar - Now used by the army for helicopter training
Ozhar - HAL airport. Runway adequate for Boeing 737 & A 320. No ILS.
Shirdi - Just started. Runway adequate for B737 & A 320. ILS is CAT 1.

The Govt had developed neither Ozhar nor Shirdi adequately.
Traffic is enough to make 1 airport profitable but 2 airports unviable.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby JayS » 17 Oct 2017 10:22

Bombardier hands control of C Series airliner to Airbus

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report ... dmail.com&

Bombardier Inc. has struck an agreement to sell control of its marquee C Series airliner program to Europe's Airbus Group SE, a bet that handing the keys to a better-financed global giant will ensure the Canadian plane maker's future in the face of relentless competition and punishingly high tariffs imposed by the United States.

The C Series program, Bombardier's big venture to drive commercial aerospace revenue over the next two decades, has been at the centre of major political and investor drama in Canada since its inception. The single-aisle airliner's development at a cost of $6-billion (U.S.) drove Bombardier to the brink of bankruptcy in 2015 before Quebec handed the company a lifeline by investing $1-billion in the plane.

Quebec supports the transaction with Airbus, calling it the best solution to protect and create jobs in a sector vital to the province's economy. Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, a major Bombardier shareholder, backs the tie-up. Ottawa has also offered a preliminary endorsement of the transaction, saying it would require review under federal investment law.


A big hand in this is of the 300% duty that US government imposed on BA. Some 80% of increase recently on Boeing's complaint. Khan is good in killing others' Aerospace industry. Not the first time Canadians tasted it.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 17 Oct 2017 13:27

I think few years ago there was talk of Boeing-Bombardier JV where Boeing would do the promotion of C-Series as its seat class does not compete with 737 variants. Apparently, that deal if signed did not last long. So BA goes along with Airbus...interesting. Yes...Khan was instrumental in closure of Avro aircraft company. There is a dramatised documentary about the Arrow program. I think our babus along with various key armed forces personnel should be made to watch that documentary on regular basis.

Found it. Here it is (this was also posted on BRF a couple of years ago IIRC):


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