Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

[manish]

twice in past week, gold smugglers caught in BIAL with large capsules inserted where the sun does not shine.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/3 ... ctum-95090

Yes, this was done by Customs who have the mandate for this. BCAS/CISF who are tasked with aviation security have no interest in screening incoming pax, except in transfer areas for connecting pax.

[Singha]

I wonder how customs does pax profiling to home in potential smugglers. pretty sharp bunch of boys and girls.

[arshyam]

The current security setup seems adequate and thorough, what's the need for these full body scanners? I have always felt airport security is more effective in desh than in places like khanland with their umpteen gadgets. These scanners are slow and cumbersome, and clearly not effective in our environment. It's just khan-style shakinaw to browbeat hapless flyers. Or is it simply a case BCAS developing TSA pretensions?

[Singha]

Cisf is overloaded and its a nightmare to pass through busy airports in peak hours

[nachiket]

The current security setup seems adequate and thorough, what's the need for these full body scanners? I have always felt airport security is more effective in desh than in places like khanland with their umpteen gadgets. These scanners are slow and cumbersome, and clearly not effective in our environment. It's just khan-style shakinaw to browbeat hapless flyers. Or is it simply a case BCAS developing TSA pretensions?

Forget full-body scanners, I have never understood the usefulness of even basic door-frame metal detectors at Indian airports, for the simple reason that in India you are not asked to remove all metal objects (like belt/keys/watch, jewelry etc.) before entering the metal detector. This means that the machine beeps a warning for every single person passing through it and the CISF security guard at the other end has to manually pat you down with a hand held metal detector (and all the women taken into the enclosed space by female guards), significantly lengthening the process. So what is the point of the door-frame detector then? Might as well go directly to the CISF guard.

I don't know if they will change the rules with these new scanners. Otherwise they will be just as useless if they have to pat down every flyer after they pass through it.

[chetak]

The current security setup seems adequate and thorough, what's the need for these full body scanners? I have always felt airport security is more effective in desh than in places like khanland with their umpteen gadgets. These scanners are slow and cumbersome, and clearly not effective in our environment. It's just khan-style shakinaw to browbeat hapless flyers. Or is it simply a case BCAS developing TSA pretensions?

Forget full-body scanners, I have never understood the usefulness of even basic door-frame metal detectors at Indian airports, for the simple reason that in India you are not asked to remove all metal objects (like belt/keys/watch, jewelry etc.) before entering the metal detector. This means that the machine beeps a warning for every single person passing through it and the CISF security guard at the other end has to manually pat you down with a hand held metal detector (and all the women taken into the enclosed space by female guards), significantly lengthening the process. So what is the point of the door-frame detector then? Might as well go directly to the CISF guard.

I don't know if they will change the rules with these new scanners. Otherwise they will be just as useless if they have to pat down every flyer after they pass through it.

unless there is something about the sound that warns the CISF guard about an unusual situation.

[nachiket]

unless there is something about the sound that warns the CISF guard about an unusual situation.

From what I've seen the metal detector beeps a warning even if you have a small metal object like keys,a watch, medium or large sized jewelry or a belt buckle on you. Every person passing through will have at least one of those items unless they have been specifically asked to remove all of that (which is not done in my experience). So the detector beeps for everyone. And everyone gets the pat down. I've even been patted down when the detector did not beep because I had myself removed everything just to see if it made a difference. My problem isn't the pat down, it is that the security check gets slowed down because of it despite having the technology (door-frame detectors) to avoid that.

[manish]

unless there is something about the sound that warns the CISF guard about an unusual situation.

From what I've seen the metal detector beeps a warning even if you have a small metal object like keys,a watch, medium or large sized jewelry or a belt buckle on you. Every person passing through will have at least one of those items unless they have been specifically asked to remove all of that (which is not done in my experience). So the detector beeps for everyone. And everyone gets the pat down. I've even been patted down when the detector did not beep because I had myself removed everything just to see if it made a difference. My problem isn't the pat down, it is that the security check gets slowed down because of it despite having the technology (door-frame detectors) to avoid that.

Remember stamping your bag tags that went away only recently? There are lots of such strange security related things around airports which seem to be based on rather shaky grounds.

Another example is the manning of these security checks. If the lack of CISF manpower is such a big constraint, then why not let the airport operators handle it and allow CISF to focus on other security measures? For those who are not aware, our checked baggage and cargo consignments all get screened by airport employees (on permanent rolls of AAI/GMR etc and backed by mandatory certifications and qualifications and what not) and these travel on the same aircraft!

[Singha]

that is because there is no easy access from passenger deck to cargo hold. some maintainence steps or manhole may exist but locked up. perhaps keys needed to open. hijacking with weapons stowed in cargo hold hence not possible.

in earlier model there was no post-checkin Xray of baggage, but it was x-rayed pre-checkin and its done by a mix of cisf and airline staff. its still the case in many high threat airports like GAU. so placing bad stuff in checkin baggage gets checked whether pre or post checkin. pre checkin there is definitely govt people in places like GAU looking at the xrays.

even in BLR there are xray scanners in entrance and based on gut feel they check it at entry also. I have myself had it done once.

also in GAU type airports , earlier the checkin luggage was lined up on the tarmac and while proceeding to a/c you had to identify your bags to have it loaded - this to take care of bombs being sent in bags while pax stays back in toilet or crawls away. boarded pax list carefully checked vs those that checked in. even in intermediate stops, those who deboard need to show boarding pass to prevent a timed attack where the attacker slips away earlier.

the stamps on carry on baggage checked repeatedly. maybe in more "secure" airports with lot of cctv and access control/QRT its now ok not to have. top20 airports probably no more have.

I have heard security measures in Srinagar is even more.

our enemies have to only succeed once like the kandahar episode, while we have to succeed every time. there is no room for laxity and easy peasy measures in indian scenario. hawks and have-nots are always probing for weak links.

[chetak]

unless there is something about the sound that warns the CISF guard about an unusual situation.

From what I've seen the metal detector beeps a warning even if you have a small metal object like keys,a watch, medium or large sized jewelry or a belt buckle on you. Every person passing through will have at least one of those items unless they have been specifically asked to remove all of that (which is not done in my experience). So the detector beeps for everyone. And everyone gets the pat down. I've even been patted down when the detector did not beep because I had myself removed everything just to see if it made a difference. My problem isn't the pat down, it is that the security check gets slowed down because of it despite having the technology (door-frame detectors) to avoid that.

I was only suggesting that there may be some subtle variation in the tone of the beeps that the trained CISF folks are taught to discern and help cull the suspicious ones and discreetly target them, away from the public gaze.

checking everyone may be a cover to camouflage security protocols.

[Singha]

new MMW longbow radar scanners will avoid the need for personal patdowns. may even detect suspicious metals like gold capsules inserted in strange places. if a tank can be picked up @ 10km in the dark, should be able to pickup metal objects precisely.

only question is should be deployed @ web scale to ease the security queues.

[Austin]

You need both Man and Machine to do these scanning , A full body scanner is definitely required but you cant deny the human element as well those CIFS guys are pro in their job.

A slight delay is acceptable considering the times we stay in.

[Austin]

Nice Review on Vistara

Vistara aims to go the extra mile to make passengers smile

[nachiket]

Remember stamping your bag tags that went away only recently? There are lots of such strange security related things around airports which seem to be based on rather shaky grounds.

The stamped bag tags get checked in multiple places. I think this is because the airport area beyond the security gates at Indian airports is not properly "sealed". Ideally there should be no way to reach it without going through the security gates. But I don't think the CISF guards are confident that there were no unattended doors or other access routes to go there and had to use the stamping and checking method. I did not know it went away.

On my first trip to khanland in 2008 there were people (seemed more like airport workers or airline staff, not CISF) at the entrance to the aero-bridge and they asked us to open all carry-on bags just prior to boarding and physically rummaged through them. This despite having all the stamps on the tags and boarding pass! They will only go to these lengths if they know there are ways to sneak in to the boarding gate area without going through security.

There are strange and seemingly pointless security measures in TFTA countries too. I was once on a flight which had a barely 1 hour fuel stop in Seoul. Most passengers were continuing on to the final destination and could have just remained on the flight. Yet, they made everybody disembark, made them go through a ad-hoc security screen set up next to the boarding gate and get back on the aircraft. Why? I don't know.

[Zynda]

[
Yet, they made everybody disembark, made them go through a ad-hoc security screen set up next to the boarding gate and get back on the aircraft. Why? I don't know.

This strange rule is also there in Europe as mandated by EASA. Any aircraft that lands in EU (for transit), the pax needs to disembark, go through security and board again before taking-off. Was flying once through famed London Heathrow via AI. It was a 747 and the stupid rules made us 350+ passengers (most of them were flying from Khanland to desh) go through security+ baggage check, which easily took 2 hrs plus. Most of the time, we were standing in a long line with our carry on luggage with us. Luckily I was flying solo with just a backpack as my carry on. But many families with kids & lots of carry on were struggling. Unfortunately, many of the passengers were blaming AI for the inconvenience...not TFTA airport or staff Last time I opted to fly through that miserable country.

I guess even Koreans have a similar rule if you had to go through similar procedure.

[nachiket]

This strange rule is also there in Europe as mandated by EASA. Any aircraft that lands in EU (for transit), the pax needs to disembark, go through security and board again before taking-off. Was flying once through famed London Heathrow via AI. It was a 747 and the stupid rules made us 350+ passengers (most of them were flying from Khanland to desh) go through security+ baggage check, which easily took 2 hrs plus. Most of the time, we were standing in a long line with our carry on luggage with us. Luckily I was flying solo with just a backpack as my carry on. But many families with kids & lots of carry on were struggling. Unfortunately, many of the passengers were blaming AI for the inconvenience...not TFTA airport or staff Last time I opted to fly through that miserable country.

I guess even Koreans have a similar rule if you had to go through similar procedure.

I can understand if you are transiting, where you have to get on a different flight using a different gate, perhaps at another terminal. Heathrow, Frankfurt etc. make you go through security in these cases. But in my case, it was the same aircraft. It was just a technical halt, not transit.

The latter scenario was actually better in India in my experience. On a Singapore-Chennai-Mumbai AI flight, those who were heading to Mumbai, did not have to get down and could just sit inside while new passengers from Chennai boarded.

[Zynda]

^^Yeah, we were not changing aircrafts as well. I guess ours was a tech halt as well but I think we did pick up some pax from LHR to desh. Nevertheless, strange rules.

[manish]

that is because there is no easy access from passenger deck to cargo hold. some maintainence steps or manhole may exist but locked up. perhaps keys needed to open. hijacking with weapons stowed in cargo hold hence not possible.

in earlier model there was no post-checkin Xray of baggage, but it was x-rayed pre-checkin and its done by a mix of cisf and airline staff. its still the case in many high threat airports like GAU. so placing bad stuff in checkin baggage gets checked whether pre or post checkin. pre checkin there is definitely govt people in places like GAU looking at the xrays.

even in BLR there are xray scanners in entrance and based on gut feel they check it at entry also. I have myself had it done once.

also in GAU type airports , earlier the checkin luggage was lined up on the tarmac and while proceeding to a/c you had to identify your bags to have it loaded - this to take care of bombs being sent in bags while pax stays back in toilet or crawls away. boarded pax list carefully checked vs those that checked in. even in intermediate stops, those who deboard need to show boarding pass to prevent a timed attack where the attacker slips away earlier.

the stamps on carry on baggage checked repeatedly. maybe in more "secure" airports with lot of cctv and access control/QRT its now ok not to have. top20 airports probably no more have.

I have heard security measures in Srinagar is even more.

our enemies have to only succeed once like the kandahar episode, while we have to succeed every time. there is no room for laxity and easy peasy measures in indian scenario. hawks and have-nots are always probing for weak links.

Nope. It has more to do with some 'profiling' and other such things. By the way CISF screeners and airport screeners both have identical training in screening procedures on identical equipment because BCAS rules are all same. Also explosives are just as important a threat as hijacking and possibly more, and the above explanation doesn't cover that aspect.

And baggage screening pre check-in at most airports has nothing to do with threat perception. It is simply due to a lack of so-called 'inline' screening that finally came to India only with new HYD and BLR - the takeaway conveyors move through multiple levels of baggage screening after the check-in agent accepts your bag, all deep within the belly of the airport, away from passenger eyes. Of course, if something objectionable is found, there are procedures in place to handle it.

Almost all the AAI airports in India still operate with the old process described above. Kolkata and Chennai are finally moving into inline screening now with modifications to the baggage handling systems.

The Kanishka episode put an end to the 'pax in the toilet' scenario. If a passenger is not onboard, the plane can't take off till her/her luggage is offloaded. This is SOP.

Lastly, stamps on hand baggage (a uniquely Indian creation, just like the famed concept known as 'NOC' ) existed basically to identify the guy (or girl) who slipped up in letting something get through when it shouldn't have - as simple as that.

[manish]

The latter scenario was actually better in India in my experience. On a Singapore-Chennai-Mumbai AI flight, those who were heading to Mumbai, did not have to get down and could just sit inside while new passengers from Chennai boarded.

The above is a unique privilege accorded only to AI. These kind of 'mixed' flights flying DOM-DOM-INT'L or vice versa are not permitted to be operated by any other carriers.

[Suraj]

The latter scenario was actually better in India in my experience. On a Singapore-Chennai-Mumbai AI flight, those who were heading to Mumbai, did not have to get down and could just sit inside while new passengers from Chennai boarded.

The above is a unique privilege accorded only to AI. These kind of 'mixed' flights flying DOM-DOM-INT'L or vice versa are not permitted to be operated by any other carriers.

It's called 5th freedom and modified 6th freedom rights - the right to transport passengers between two points outside the carrier's home nation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
India doesn't accord domestic mod 6th rights to any carrier, but I believe Maldives Airlines does Chennai-Dhaka and thus has 5th freedom rights.

AI itself has several lucrative 5th freedom rights, like the right to transport paying passengers between JFK-LHR, which is extremely coveted. A bunch of others too, like Tokyo-HK I think. Of course they haven't been able to profitably use those much, unlike the fifth freedom rights that someone like Singapore Airlines has.

[manish]

The above is a unique privilege accorded only to AI. These kind of 'mixed' flights flying DOM-DOM-INT'L or vice versa are not permitted to be operated by any other carriers.

It's called 5th freedom and modified 6th freedom rights - the right to transport passengers between two points outside the carrier's home nation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
India doesn't accord domestic mod 6th rights to any carrier, but I believe Maldives Airlines does Chennai-Dhaka and thus has 5th freedom rights.

AI itself has several lucrative 5th freedom rights, like the right to transport paying passengers between JFK-LHR, which is extremely coveted. A bunch of others too, like Tokyo-HK I think. Of course they haven't been able to profitably use those much, unlike the fifth freedom rights that someone like Singapore Airlines has.

Suraj Saar more than the 5th freedom flights, I was highlighting the so called mixed flights, which have a domestic 'connector' tag on to the international leg. Examples are SFO-DEL-BLR or HYD-DEL-ORD etc. DOM passengers flying these need to board and deboard from int'l side of the airport and get those unique AI boarding passes with the letter 'D' in large fonts on them. There are designated lanes at these airports to let such passengers byapass immigration.

Someone like Jet or IndiGo is not allowed to operate such flights.

But your points regarding AI 5th freedom flights are 400% true onlee

[Austin]

Government To Release Rs 1,500 Crore To Air India Next Week

The government will release Rs 1,500 crore to Air India next week as part of equity infusion under the turnaround plan, a senior official said today. A civil aviation ministry official said parliament has approved Rs 2,345 crore equity infusion into the debt-laden national carrier under the second batch of Supplementary Demands for Grants 2018-19. He said the government would release Rs 1,500 cr to the airline next week.

This would be out of the Rs 2,345-crore approved supplementary grant. When asked whether the ministry has sought more funds for Air India as part of the upcoming interim Budget, the official replied in the negative.

The government has decided to transfer debt worth Rs 29,000 crore to Air India Asset Holding Company, a special purpose vehicle, to revive the financial fortunes of the national carrier.

The airline has debt worth around Rs 55,000 crore. Air India is staying afloat on a bailout package extended by the previous UPA regime. The carrier is to receive up to Rs 30,231 crore from the government subject to meeting certain performance thresholds. The 10-year bailout package began in 2012.

[Austin]

55,000 Cr debt is ~ $ 9 billion .....Thats huge money.

What sort of performance thresholds is the government expecting with the bail out for AI ?

[Dileep]

What sort of performance thresholds is the government expecting with the bail out for AI ?

Performance thresholds? Don't you realize that in the "socialist" republic of India, AI is primarily the means of employment and secondarily a perk to the babu/netas?

[Singha]

Babus netas owned shadow interests must be gettings certain kickbacks from AI.
There is no good reason for this raktabeeja asura to continue eating our tax money

[Austin]

Dileep the bail out is conditional to them meeting Performance Threshold , So I am wondering what condition do they have to meet and so far have they achieved it ?

55 Thousand Crore is a huge debt to be into , How did they manage to reach this far ? Are more debt because of new Aircraft purchase ? In that case most of our Private Airlines are in Debt

[JayS]

Dileep the bail out is conditional to them meeting Performance Threshold , So I am wondering what condition do they have to meet and so far have they achieved it ?

55 Thousand Crore is a huge debt to be into , How did they manage to reach this far ? Are more debt because of new Aircraft purchase ? In that case most of our Private Airlines are in Debt

The problem is multi faceted. Clearly AI is grappled y typical sarkari inefficiencies but that cannot explain such huge debt on its own. There are other equally worse companies who are not so much into deep shit. I think the four key factors that went onto create the current debt trap are

- 2007 merger with IA. IA was far more worse that AI. Until 2007 AI was somewhat OK on its own. This increased its troubles on operational side.
- Huge purchase order of Aircrafts in 2009 or 2010. The entire buy order was funded through loans creating more than 30000Cr debt in one shot. (I have no doubt in my mind that this was done for party fund thru kickbacks else who takes such decision?)
- 2008 crisis pushed already struggling company over the edge as far as operational losses are concerned.
- Political meddling by ceding profitable routes to pvt companies in shady manner. CTs are dime a dozen. I am sure at least some are true.

Now AI is in such situation that no amount of efficient operations can bring in sufficient profit which can square off the loans now. Thats why no one now is willing to buy it. I think GOI needs to bite the bullet and take a one time hit, which is what they are planning with the debt restructuring where GOI will take over half the loan thru a SPV and make AI lucrative enough for buyers.

AI has been showing operating profit last 3yrs. This year its suppose to be more than 500Cr. But CAG has raised doubts over AI's accounting practices. And the loan serviing itself it something like 4700Cr per yr. So unless they figure out how to 10x their profit, they are never gonna repay the loans.

[Austin]

Nice Summary Jay , If they privatise it then lots of head will roll and that would be another nightmare . GOI should try to keep it and manage it via professional management team

[Austin]

Air India subsidiary Alliance Air ATR had a tail strike on its Mumbai - Diu flight yesterday. Passengers ok, aircraft to go for a safety check before fresh flights. Video

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 1003333632

[SriKumar]

Air India subsidiary Alliance Air ATR had a tail strike on its Mumbai - Diu flight yesterday. Passengers ok, aircraft to go for a safety check before fresh flights. Video

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 1003333632

Reminds me of the 'tail strike' event of a AI plane from Coimbatore (?) 3 months ago that hit the perimeter wall !! and flew on till Mumbai with a gaping hole/gash in the fuselage.!!!

By the way, does *anyone* know *anything* about what happened to the AI flight that landed in Newark airport 3 months ago with no fuel left and massive and multiple failure of navigation instruments and pilot landed somehow inspire of low cloud cover?

What could possibly have caused multiple failures in a relatively new craft and what is the craft doing now. Supposedly it was flown out in a couple of days. Not seen any report on that yet.

[Austin]

Govt awards 235 routes under regional air connectivity scheme

https://www.theweek.in/news/biz-tech/20 ... cheme.html

[chetak]

Dileep the bail out is conditional to them meeting Performance Threshold , So I am wondering what condition do they have to meet and so far have they achieved it ?

55 Thousand Crore is a huge debt to be into , How did they manage to reach this far ? Are more debt because of new Aircraft purchase ? In that case most of our Private Airlines are in Debt

The problem is multi faceted. Clearly AI is grappled y typical sarkari inefficiencies but that cannot explain such huge debt on its own. There are other equally worse companies who are not so much into deep shit. I think the four key factors that went onto create the current debt trap are

- 2007 merger with IA. IA was far more worse that AI. Until 2007 AI was somewhat OK on its own. This increased its troubles on operational side.
- Huge purchase order of Aircrafts in 2009 or 2010. The entire buy order was funded through loans creating more than 30000Cr debt in one shot. (I have no doubt in my mind that this was done for party fund thru kickbacks else who takes such decision?)
- 2008 crisis pushed already struggling company over the edge as far as operational losses are concerned.
- Political meddling by ceding profitable routes to pvt companies in shady manner. CTs are dime a dozen. I am sure at least some are true.

Now AI is in such situation that no amount of efficient operations can bring in sufficient profit which can square off the loans now. Thats why no one now is willing to buy it. I think GOI needs to bite the bullet and take a one time hit, which is what they are planning with the debt restructuring where GOI will take over half the loan thru a SPV and make AI lucrative enough for buyers.

AI has been showing operating profit last 3yrs. This year its suppose to be more than 500Cr. But CAG has raised doubts over AI's accounting practices. And the loan serviing itself it something like 4700Cr per yr. So unless they figure out how to 10x their profit, they are never gonna repay the loans.

sirji,

look at some of the other ministries that were managed by the same lot and you will see that a strong, powerful pattern emerges.

manipulate, loot and scoot.

consequences and country be damned.

[Austin]

Boeing temporarily suspends 737 MAX flights: Here is what the issue is

[Singha]

lessors of jet airways have started grounding planes.
5 are grounded and 19 flights impacted today.

[Singha]

how long is boeing going to manipulate the dated 737 hull by adding new wings and engines? we all know its cramped and not as comfortable as the A321 hull which is 30 years newer design.

they should invest in a new narrowbody hull. wings n engines are plug n play these days.

[Austin]

Agree Singha , Sitting inside a 737 in economy class is like sitting inside a mumbai autorickshaw with 3 seats verus Sitting inside a OLA Cab in A320

Looks time time of reckoning for Jet has come.

[Singha]

and the thin n hard seats used by indigo makes it even roomier - though a pain in butt for longer flights like blr-singapore

[Austin]

Never flown Indigo so far but the Jet 737-800 seats are not too comfortable , Flew the 320NEO on AI and that was good experience.

Looks like Boeing will soon make a decision on 757/767 replacement 797 ..It a case of either make it or loose those customer to Airbus 321NEO Plus

http://www.traveller.com.au/boeing-797- ... aft-h1an3h

[Austin]

She flies the Superjet well

[Austin]

this thing can cover the globe in Business Jet Configuration


Boeing's New 777X Is the World's Biggest Twin-engine Jet — Here's What It Looks Like Inside

https://www.travelandleisure.com/airlin ... n-interior