Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

aryaputri :shock:

what, are we racist pigs.

why can't she be a vayuputri.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6088
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

I thought that might inflame some passions.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

ET - will be announced at paris air show

Engine maker CFM International is poised to announce one of the world's largest jet engine orders with a deal for more than 600 engines from India's IndiGoNSE -0.65 %, industry sources said.

The French-U.S. engine maker, owned by General Electric and France's Safran, has been competing with the airline's existing engine supplier, Pratt & Whitney, to provide the power for 280 twin-engine A320-family jetliners already on order from Airbus by the Delhi-based budget carrier.

..

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/69766098.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

A321XLR - range to hai but toilets, high ceiling and airflow nahi. things will get rough on long haul in this dumpster.
ashbhee
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by ashbhee »

If Jet is liquidated, which is what it looks like will happen, how much money will PSU banks recover / loose? I wonder what percentage of the tax payers money will be recovered.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vips »

It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10032
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Vips wrote:It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.
Seems like at least half of those are parked at BOM, having passed through there on Monday.
Najunamar
BRFite
Posts: 431
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 16:40
Location: USA

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Najunamar »

chetak wrote:aryaputri :shock:

what, are we racist pigs.

why can't she be a vayuputri.
Arya = Respected

Putri = daughter.

Oh I get it! You were being sarcastic!!
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

and so it goes on.

these baboo(n)s have no fear of anybody



Jitender Bhargava @JitiBhargava

Ashok Chawla, former Secretary Civil Aviation, Finance & Chairman, Competition Commission of India, when the controversial Jet-Etihad deal was given a green signal, has finally resigned as Independent Director of Jet Airways today. Details of his contribution for transparency?

1:55 AM - 18 Jun 2019

twitter



He seems to be in all the wrong places. Was Director in Yes Bank Board too.

1:58 AM - 18 Jun 2019
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Cutting down flight delays: India gets new centralised air traffic flow management system.

India now has a state-of-the-art “air traffic flow management - central command centre” (C-ATFM) that will help balance capacity against
demand for optimum utilisation of resources like airspace and aircraft at capacity-constrained Indian airports. Most airports in India are facing a
massive infra crunch with terminals handling much more passengers than their capacity and this system is expected to cut down on flight delays by synchronising aircraft movement with real time conditions.

India has now become the seventh country to have a centralised air traffic flow management system. This should help ease up conditions at airports with maximum infra shortage — Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore — and other terminals like Patna and Lucknow which are fast becoming new pain points for flyers.

“The C-ATFM system integrates flight data from various subsystems like ATC Automation System, flight updates and flight update messages. The system also displays weather information along with static information about airports, airspaces and air routes. It processes the demand and capacity information and provides decision-making tools to the ATFM flow manager for collaborative decision making and to ensure regulated flow of traffic at each airport in India,” Airports Authority of India (AAI) said in a statement about the centre that was inaugurated by aviation minister Hardeep Singh Puri at Vasant Kunj, Delhi, on saturday.

“The C-ATFM system is supported by 36 Flow Management Positions (FMP) at various airports including Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, Bengaluru and Hyderabad among others. Eight defence airports are also part of the ATFM network which are provided with FMPs. After successfully implementing the Air Traffic Flow Management System, India has become the seventh country after the US, Europe, Australia, South Africa, Japan, Brazil,” said the AAI statement.

AAI chairman Guruprasad Mohapatra said: “With the commissioning of the Central Command Centre of the Central Air Traffic Flow Management Complex, we have made a humble beginning today. With this facility, in the next five years, we will be comparable to what the best of the world have to offer.”
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Mort Walker wrote:
Vips wrote:It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.
Seems like at least half of those are parked at BOM, having passed through there on Monday.

looks like some foreign lender may already and legally hold a lien on these aircraft and no Indian lender may be able to get their hands on them. Some gora court has approved this recently.

It did not take any huge IQ to move quickly and get a legal lien on these assets by Indian bankers but some joker has purposely screwed up and let someone else move first.

this is certainly not a coincidence.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

the US Exim bank has the lien on jet's six Boeing 777 aircraft even though the bank's exposure may barely be 10 odd % (200-300 crores) of the total value of these aircraft at approx 2100 crores.

one of these 777 aircraft may currently be at Amsterdam airport.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

this lien repo men are a cottage industry in west, just as bounty hunters in murica.

if any ac are stranded outside india you can be sure they will be way more agile than our banks

we need to take lessons from the british
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:this lien repo men are a cottage industry in west, just as bounty hunters in murica.

if any ac are stranded outside india you can be sure they will be way more agile than our banks

we need to take lessons from the british
only the one 777 is out of India.

the rest is here.

we should have moved quicker.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

why cant the indian govt pass a ordinance that in such cases the indian lenders will have first cut of whatever is on table. UK USA probably have that already and would do it in a heartbeat to benefit their own banks if needed.

why should we be good boys and obey the judgements of rigged foreign commercial courts in such matters ?

its same dhimmi mentality that if yindu x makes a deal with yindu y, they will sign on for arbitration in LONDON for the oh so great british impartiality. :rotfl:
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

almost everyone who conspired to tank Indian aviation is in the picture.

a few UP politicos and bigtime dilli honchos are all that is left to complete the picture




twitter


The unforgettable Maurya Sheraton pasta cooking session of 2007. Almost everyone in the picture is in trouble now including Sunil Bharti Mittal.


Image
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

twitter

Muscle power for flying the 737s! https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-s ... yptr=yahoo …. In 2006, I had raised a query with JDG, DGCA about minimum height for pilots, when I found my trainee couldn't handle S/E as rudder/brake pedal unreachable. Boeing had responded that it was 5'4"




Image
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?


looks like it.


hard to believe that all of them gathered just to eat pasta cooked by rank amateurs. :wink:
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by abhik »

Singha wrote:is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?
Ha ha reminded me of the group foto with A Roy, John dyal, Burkha and other uber BIF worthies meet up over buffet.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

ashbhee wrote:If Jet is liquidated, which is what it looks like will happen, how much money will PSU banks recover / loose? I wonder what percentage of the tax payers money will be recovered.
Funny - the taxpayers have no such qualms when billions are given in loan waivers to farmers - but everyone squeals when a business needs similar assistance.

And then we wonder why India's economy is not growing faster! Jail bharo for industry and vacations for farmers! Is India headed for an agrarian future?
mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 742
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by mmasand »

Singha wrote:Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.
Mangalore, Calicut, Srinagar, and Leh are challenging and Captain only airports, Mangalore's table top runway dates back over half a decade and really needs to be moved to a flatter terrain, however no developer wants to come forward due to low traffic. Realistically one would need to see the Metar before judging why it went of a 'taxiway'.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.
manish
BRFite
Posts: 848
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

mmasand wrote:
Singha wrote:Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.
Mangalore, Calicut, Srinagar, and Leh are challenging and Captain only airports, Mangalore's table top runway dates back over half a decade and really needs to be moved to a flatter terrain, however no developer wants to come forward due to low traffic. Realistically one would need to see the Metar before judging why it went of a 'taxiway'.
Mangalore's terrain makes it pretty much impossible to find 'flat' spaces to build nice big airports at reasonable investments at the present level of traffic. The emergence ofa much bigger and better equipped, modern Kannur Airport close by in its major catchment is also a dampener.

The present primary runway was built quite recenty actually and has ILS at one end, with the entire airport certified to handle widebodies of upto A300-600/B767 size. Although I'm practice, the only widebodies the airport has ever seen are the occasional Haj charters.

What it needs to feel and be safer is investments into lengthening the strip and the Runway End Safety Area (RESA). It's downright criminal on the part of the state government which despite many appeals hasn't moved a muscle almost a decade after the 2010 tragedy to fix this by providing the necessary land parcel.
manish
BRFite
Posts: 848
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Vivek K wrote:Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.
The airport handled around 2.25 million pax last year.

Operating types are almost entirely B737s, A320s, Q400s and ATR72s.

Airport has ILS on its primary runway at one end (CAT I think, not sure) - it's a full fledged international airport and the ATC at Mangalore has control over a fairly large airspace in the region, so I would hazard a guess that the rest of the CNS/ATM equipment also would be pretty decent.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

So the ILS seemed to work well though they could improve to CAT III (A, B or C) depending upon visibility issues. But since the aircraft landed ok, it probably wasn't the runway system that posed the problem. It could be that in the poor visibility, the cues for the taxiway turn were not adequate and the pilot turned off incorrectly. Therefore in pavement centerline lights could help improve the situation.
mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 742
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by mmasand »

And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.
I'm guessing it must have landed too far beyond the threshold. 09/27 is 12000 ft long. Much longer than necessary for a 737 even in rainy conditions.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

manish wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.
The airport handled around 2.25 million pax last year.

Operating types are almost entirely B737s, A320s, Q400s and ATR72s.

Airport has ILS on its primary runway at one end (CAT I think, not sure) - it's a full fledged international airport and the ATC at Mangalore has control over a fairly large airspace in the region, so I would hazard a guess that the rest of the CNS/ATM equipment also would be pretty decent.

the runway here is like like a table top with steep drop offs.

It's sometimes disconcerting for operating crews unused to regularly operating out of this airport.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

nachiket wrote:
mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.
I'm guessing it must have landed too far beyond the threshold. 09/27 is 12000 ft long. Much longer than necessary for a 737 even in rainy conditions.
the glideslope here is non standard and that sometimes makes it uncomfortable for some crews.

Many of these macho guys don't go around as a matter of prestige.

If at any stage of the approach the crew is not comfortable, it is always best to abandon the approach and go around. This is the safest option as well as the SOP.

unfortunately, many a time, testimonials in the cockpit play a much bigger role than is usually appreciated or even warranted and this is a recipe for disaster.
manish
BRFite
Posts: 848
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.
SpiceJet seems to have a ridiculously high number of such incidents. Even AI Express seems better in this regard. Did they not have a similar excursion at BOM a couple of years ago that threw the entire country's aviation links out of whack for a couple of days? I also remember them totalling a Q400 3-4 years ago at Hubli, people were lucky in that incident.

May be they are just plain unlucky. May be there are larger issues at play here internal to the organisation.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

3rd incident in 3 days

Airlines put pressure to save fuel

One engine is shut during taxi nowadays to save fuel esp in turboprops which is visible
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Image

count so far is 85 cancelled and 54 diverted. will go into 100s by evening.

the other runway is a bit weak in mum?
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

The spicejet failure is embarrassing! overshoot on a 12000 ft runway by a 737 is unheard of. The pilots can land long but generally the touch down zone is lit and has visual cues. So they would have lost a 1,000'. They need to check the crew for blood alcohol content.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

maybe his touchdown was way past the usual due to struggle to align to centerline or came in very high... should have aborted and gone around. the ATC probably has video recordings of all touchdowns for record keeping and incident investigation.
arvin
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Singha wrote:
count so far is 85 cancelled and 54 diverted. will go into 100s by evening.

the other runway is a bit weak in mum?
I guess for accessing the second runway one has to go through the intersection and then positon for take off. This might be taking time with continuos rains.
Blr is lucky soon it will get 4k parallel runway.
mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 742
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by mmasand »

From several pilots in a WhatsApp group this morning BOM has one of the most efficient systems, and a fairly long runway and displaced threshold to arrest any excursions. Several fleet training captains have raised a safety notice to all pilots to increase their compensation from 15% to 20% and upwards (strict weight and fuel calculations).

Unconfirmed but some pilots did report runway may have had over 3mm of water which reduces braking action considerably and nose gear tends to hydroplane. Several airlines including the IAF An-32 have had these incidents, sadly DGCA is just a signboard outside an office that will brush aside any work they may have to do.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Singha wrote:maybe his touchdown was way past the usual due to struggle to align to centerline or came in very high... should have aborted and gone around. the ATC probably has video recordings of all touchdowns for record keeping and incident investigation.
If alignment with centerline was a problem, then that would be because of high crosswinds. There is talk of water ponding on the runway. How is that possible? That would mean a bad design with inappropriate cross slopes and inadequate drainage infrastructure.

Something not right with the airport design!!
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

After speaking with folks back home, there seems to have been an insane amount of rain in Mumbai during the period in question. So my earlier guess about landing too far beyond the threshold may not be a good one. It is possible that there was just too much water on the runway for the aircraft to stop even if the touchdown point was just past the limit. Of course it is upto the pilots to recognize the unsafe situation and go around which they did not.

Vivek I don't think we can blame airport or runway design entirely. The drainage is poor all over the city due to geography and the 100 year old sewage system. The entire city was flooded.
Post Reply